And people say Evasion is overpowered... (in General)

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] March 10 2008 7:32 AM EDT

Nay... I say USD bows are overpowered... they need to be nerfed before Evasion ever gets considered.... G_Beee got a hold of two of Freeds Magical USD bows and now creams almost everyone out there... I see a huge problem with this and I feel outraged. I spent my Exp to stop most if not all Ranged from hitting me and feel this is not right that someone can get two Huge Ranged weapons and cream my team in Ranged.... RANGED!!! I thought there was a 40% damage reduction in Ranged.... and I was still getting hit for over 2 mil a hit at times.... Against 200 AC!!!!!!!!! Now tell me how this pans out and how it can be fair to say "Nerf Evasion" When that is one of the only things keeping my team from losing at all.

Now for all statistic reasons he was also hitting me in the third round of Ranged... Even Ranger doesn't usually do that and he nerfs most of my Evasion by EC. This is one issue that really needs a little balancing.... it is unfair to those that work for their spot to lose it based on one or two items... its almost not worth it for me to continue with evasion on this team....

Lumpy Koala March 10 2008 7:36 AM EDT

LOL not to mentioned after my exbow hit him to maybe negative STR, he's still dishing out 600k damage per hit on me....

And yes, I know it went to negative or whatever insanely small amount of str, coz after round 1, my exbow is switching to the other minion.

Flamey March 10 2008 7:45 AM EDT

JW! Don't look at this thread!

Mikel March 10 2008 7:47 AM EDT

How much xp have you spend on evasion?

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] March 10 2008 7:54 AM EDT

Over 37 mil... and yes yes he has spent more and blah blah... but he also has a Toa worth over 82 mil on his side + a 233 mil NW Elb and what do I have? 10 mil in elven gear including Aof... My Negative to hit is at 218 plus over 5.9 mil in Defensive dex not including ranged bonus... for any reason he should not be getting Dex based hits on my evasion guy... so from that ToA and Elb he is still getting a Hit in, in the third round... when I have over 7 mil defensive dex + -305 to hit...

QBJohnnywas March 10 2008 8:01 AM EDT

Too late. I'm saying nothing though. ;)

SuperHD March 10 2008 8:07 AM EDT

i am an archer, i think that the difference between overpowered evasion and overpowered bow is that evasion cost experience point while bow cost money. One can buy cb$ while one can't buy experience points making the archer rule in the long term. But that is only my opinion based on my game experience so far, no one has to agree or disagree to this but everyone has to have fun :)

This carnage blender game is great!

Flatcap [East Milwaukee Devival] March 10 2008 8:17 AM EDT

"it is unfair to those that work for their spot to lose it based on one or two items..."

I think this should be re-read. One or two super bows in the game vs every monkey in the fight list with absurdly high evasion? So the rest of the archers on the planet shuldn't be able to hit anyone ever? Because this is really what all the "Omgz USD be ruinin teh gamez" arguments seem to be.

Getting an absurdly high net weapon is extremely hard to do, even if you blow 300 usd getting cash for it, the forging still takes time, even if you swap it around and have some sort of forge knitting circle.

Brakke Bres [Ow man] March 10 2008 8:18 AM EDT

Those bows, there both from freed!
Those are two magical uber bows!!!
That thing has what? +237 on it no small order to avoid that :)

QBJohnnywas March 10 2008 8:20 AM EDT

"Getting an absurdly high net weapon is extremely hard to do, even if you blow 300 usd getting cash for it, the forging still takes time, even if you swap it around and have some sort of forge knitting circle. "

i love the idea of the forgers all sitting around knitting....:)

Brakke Bres [Ow man] March 10 2008 8:21 AM EDT

Gandalf - where are you [5x3900] (+173) worth $78,509,168 owned by AdminG Beee (Double Trouble)
and double woops
Platypus Phleghm [6x10500] (+252) worth $233,843,805 owned by AdminG Beee (Double Trouble)

Those are, ladies and gentlemen, uber uber bows. +252 and DX: 4,177,439
Try to avoid that.

lostling March 10 2008 8:52 AM EDT

and i thought everyone has agreed that freed's stuff are aberrations.... so yep... nothing much to say... and i still think evasion is not over powered

QBsutekh137 March 10 2008 10:12 AM EDT

My only issue with this, and any "aberrations" (yes, I had to remove Double Trouble from my fight list too), is that aberrations occur only on the tank side. I can't equip something uber and change my fight-list all for the better overnight. That sort of irks me, and it is one of those "intangibles" tanks have that allows them a great deal of choice and flexibility.

No, I didn't have to train my Evasion that high. But once I train Evasion I can't just flip a switch and re-equip something to radically alter my offense. And if I want to change something on the MPR side, I have to take the retrain hit.

Tanks can alter their targeting, enchantments, and ability to hit multiple times with a simple click of "Equip". Seeking mages, imbued VA, and big weapon + have far larger ramifications than a set of AGs or big CoI have for a mage.

Additionally, a facet of clans that people mention liking is the ability to share gear and really experiment with various offense and defenses... Well, on the offensive side I guess mages are left out in the cold on that too... A clan of mages gets to exchange...what? Words? Arcane magics? God's own methane? Nah. They don't really get to exchange anything around when it comes to offense. Maybe an AoF to beef up a familiar -- that's about it.

So yes, I agree that these bows are just aberrations. And I agree that tanks needs weapons (and some Weapon Allowance) to do well. However, the intangible factor of being able to swap out huge amounts of actual, fighting power (some with radically different capabilities, like MgSk vs ELB) is something that mages do not have. In that sense, I don't feel sorry at all about the fact that tanks need to invest so much in gear -- their investment never dies: character to character, NCBs, leave the game and come back -- those items will ALWAYS be there. Throw in some USD, and those items will always be there for whomever simply spends the most.

lostling March 10 2008 10:15 AM EDT

/me has always pushed for staffs but ah well

iBananco [Blue Army] March 10 2008 10:21 AM EDT

I was under the impression that that was the whole point of having mages. Jon didn't set out to make them equal. Mages don't need as much NW, but they also can't augment their power too much using cash either.

Phrede March 10 2008 10:27 AM EDT

I love this game :)
I cant use them because of weapons allowance - but I know a man who can :)
I have worked hard to get the money to up those bows - and have supported this game with many different namings. Why does everyone have a go at a LEGAL part of the game - its not as though I am cheating.
G_Beee has also worked hard and manages to play this game constantly (I often cannot play at work - firewall, and I am a trainer which means I am not sitting at a desk all day with access to Web) and therefore the only option I have is to put some of my hard-earned cash into this game. I dont see the people I bought CB$ off complaining.

Tezmac March 10 2008 10:32 AM EDT

No, the sellers aren't complaining. But we do have some buyers who choose to nit pick the manner in which it is sold.

QBsutekh137 March 10 2008 11:09 AM EDT

Freed, I wasn't having a "worth" discussion, at least wasn't trying to.

I was talking about choices. Mages don't have it. Simple as that.

You worked hard on those bows? I worked hard on my MPR (as well as the money to buy three extra minions). We've all done things that involves "work" (I used quotes, because this is a _game_...the word should be "play")

That's why I don't want to have a worth argument -- we're all worthy. *smile*

Prissy, I was trying to point out that aberrations (on offense at least) exist only for tanks. And there are ramifications to that.

Phrede March 10 2008 11:30 AM EDT

I know its been mentioned several times before but we could have a decay factor built into weapons (and armour ?). I would have no problem with that as long as you could 'repair' the equipment - not via a forger but via Blacksmith. That way money goes back into cb.

Also could we not have a cb currency exchange bank, not for interest, but for buying cb$. That way the money again goes back into cb to help Jon buy some nice new processors/disk :)

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] March 10 2008 11:38 AM EDT

Freed, I don't think everyone is having a go at you ;) you may have noticed almost every aspect of CB has its vocal advocates/detractors.

There has been some discussion recently about buying CB$ direct from Jon. Jon has stated that he prefers to keep the economy "pure" in the past.

Lumpy Koala March 10 2008 11:45 AM EDT

maybe you guys can refer back to my suggestion in post #7 :D

Yukk March 10 2008 12:55 PM EDT

So you're saying that it's completely unreasonable that G_Beee who just created a terrific archer character, using the two biggest bows in the whole game is able to hit you ?
I don't think that two mega-bows makes all archers overpowered.
Take a look at named ELBs. Mine is 12th in that list. It's 25th overall, but in named bows, you get the value of all of them. It's also 6th in +. My bow is +112. It's also within a few $M NW of being top 5.
On the other hand, take evasion. Any team can throw together some evasion. It took me a year and a half to get my bow where it is. It took me a few months to get +145 evasion. I'd never hit myself in a million fights. That's just one minion in a 3 minion team.
If I want to forge, I'm losing/using the output of all 3 minions and I ran the numbers once, quickly, my + output at forging would still be about 1/3 as fast as my + gain in EV on that one minion.
So you think that's overpowered ? How about the hoards of evasion minions that any archer has to face ? At 145 my minion sits at 20th overall. Compared to +112 being 6th overall in named bows on +.
Yes, my bow is too small and my minions are too small. I know that, but I think that all things considered, I'd be an average archer. I'm not Freed or G_Beee, I'm the imperfect average.

QBRanger March 10 2008 1:14 PM EDT

"No, the sellers aren't complaining. But we do have some buyers who choose to nit pick the manner in which it is sold."

If you would read the whole post, you would see that the problems I have is with NUB players playing for 4 months then selling out just after the NUB is over. Or very soon thereafter.

If you will quote me, please use the whole quotes and not the parts you want.

Tsk, Tsk.

QBRanger March 10 2008 1:20 PM EDT

And to Draco:

I barely kill your evasion minion in ranged. With my "massive" USD bow and over 5M Ethereal Chains. Some battles I do not.

All this vs your 37M xp into evasion.

Compared to my 108M in EC and my tanks native dex. Along with a 100M bow.

I think evasion has the better of things now.

Anyone else in all of CB kill your evasion minion in ranged? Anyone??

Learn a decent sized evasion yourself and you will likely be able to nerf his tanks dex enough not to be hit.

QBsutekh137 March 10 2008 1:26 PM EDT

I think he does have a "decent sized Evasion..." Though those elven boots could use some improvement... Am I reading that right, Draco...those boots aren't even on the first page of items? So, not even +25? You could get them to +31 for a very nominal charge...

QBRanger March 10 2008 1:33 PM EDT

Instead of evasion, the last line should be "decent sized Ethereal Chains."

Sry for the confusion.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] March 10 2008 1:44 PM EDT

Why on Earth train EC to stop being hit? It's only half effective at that.

Train more Evasion. It costs the same per point as EC, is 100% effective and is boosted by all your +Dex Stuff.

Unlike EC.

EC is rubbish for trying to stop Tanks hitting you.

QBRanger March 10 2008 1:52 PM EDT

If he is maxed on the xp to spend on that minion, EC on the others will help lower the dex of the archers trying to hit him.

Why do you think I rely heavily on EC. I only have so much xp to put into dex on my main tank. Using EC helps quite a lot. A byproduct of that is I have enough to lower the strength of all but 1 person to below 0. But that is not why I initially learned EC.

Mastodont March 10 2008 6:19 PM EDT

I agree that USD bows are overpowered, but there's only a few of them compared to the ocean of evasion mages us tanks have to fight on the way up.

I can't even hit The Hawk of May and he has -4 ac. Evasion has made AC obsolete for low/mid PR.

QBJohnnywas March 10 2008 6:32 PM EDT

Named +140 DBs are what you can't hit. My evasion is tiny.

Funnily enough those boots are owned by DrAc05676. ;)

Mikel March 10 2008 6:52 PM EDT

Interesting notes:
Now with 4,472,022 dex, I hit you in round 4 fairly consistently.
Now with 5,590,700 dex, I hit you in round 4 fairly consistently.
Now with 6,216,873 dex, I hit you in round 4 fairly consistently (hit you 6 times in 3rd round out of 10 attempts).

Pretty good if you ask me that I need at least 2 mil more dex just to hit you one round earlier. I'd say that's a pretty dang good trade-off and you should feel fairly secure in the fact that it will take me a while to get my dex up that high. I don't even want to know how much dex would be needed to hit you in round 2, and even dread trying to hit you in round 1.

I have 19.5 mil invested in archery, and 28.7 mil invested in Dex just to have a decent chance at hitting evasion minions and then 12.4 mil just to make sure when I get that hit in, I can kill it.

Queen of Pain [6x7200] (+219) Elb NW 163,215,242
348,938 Meat Tenderizers [8x1] (+3) Arrows NW:243,940
Train of Pain lvl 5,694,446 ToA NW 103,262,370

AdminQBVerifex [Serenity In Chaos] March 10 2008 7:05 PM EDT

What about making evasion tied to how much DX you have? If you have low DX then your evasion doesn't have as much of an effect. Just like bloodlust works. Anyone?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] March 10 2008 7:19 PM EDT

once again, bloodlust works on tanks, being based on strength...a stat tanks will be training anyways. mages do not often train dex. forcing evasion to use dex would force mages to train something they don't already. if you just want evasion to cost more, adjusting the curve on it would be easier and more efficient.

jon has made it pretty clear though that fixing evasion is tied, as i have said for months now, to capping weapon net worth. so any evasion fix that doesn't also address capping weapon net worth is pretty doomed to failure. if it does address both then it probably needs to be in the usd thread asking for just that kind of input.

QBRanger March 10 2008 9:12 PM EDT

For all the "POWER" missile is now:

The Grid hit Evad'o Minion with Spiral [410579]

That is a typical hit vs Draco's evasion minion with a 100M/ x3500 MsK and 4.6M strength (do not forget the AoL on my first minion). Most of the NW is in the + just to try to hit him and other high evasion minions.

Takes me 3 rounds, a total of 4 hits to kill it.

Please now tell me missile is overpowered. No TOE. Protection-25.

About 25% the time that minion lives to melee. 50% I kill it in the 6th missile round. 25% I kill it in the 5th missile rounds.

So please tell me missile is now overpowered.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] March 10 2008 9:32 PM EDT

the thing is that evasion and the upper end weapons are fairly balanced at the moment in my opinion. that however, really messes up the weapon users who cannot afford to spend usd.

the two are tied together though, and any toning down of evasion will then make usd weapons all the more powerful. i really think that jon summed it all up quite well:

"Basically this thread came about because USD is just skewing the game at the top too much for the game to cope.

Evasion is a good example. Would there be any alternative to a monster bow if you wanted to be competitive, if evasion were not "overpowered?"

So that is the dilemma and I'm starting to think that the only real solution might be to reduce the influence of USD in some way."

Mikel March 10 2008 10:29 PM EDT

"So that is the dilemma and I'm starting to think that the only real solution might be to reduce the influence of USD in some way.""

Yet, by doing it this way. I have two options, retrain and join the crowd, or spend even more USD to keep ahead of evasion.

QBRanger March 10 2008 10:50 PM EDT

And quite soon even USD weapons cannot keep up.

So what then? Do we titrate evasion to keep up with the 4 to 5 USD weapons out there? Do we forget about every other tank?

Or do we try to cap weapons? Or just forget about it and have everyone turn into mages, as tanks cannot keep up.

I am about at the end of keeping up with Conundrum. A bit more AC, a bit more evasion, a slightly higher TOE and all my NW advantage as a tank is moot.

Perhaps this is what CB wants. If so, I will just become an evasion mage and compete that way. Not really worrying about tanks, just train some evasion and super boost it with items.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] March 10 2008 11:00 PM EDT

by all means i agree that something has to be done. i made several suggestions in the usd thread and have tried like hell to encourage others to do so as well. i guess at this point we just wait and see what happens then and trust jon to do something amazing for us.

let me add though that as i have been saying for months now, the cap and the toning down of evasion all need to happen simultaneously. also, whatever solution we end up with will probably need some tweaking to ensure balance.

Ulord[NK] March 10 2008 11:04 PM EDT

Why don't you guys have a little more patience? This is change month and more tweaks are coming. It's good to put the issue out there but talking about the same thing over and over again is not going to do much good. Personally, I think the ranged round extension only buffed ToE. I'm not sure if that is intended. (does ToE seriously need another buff??). Defensive style is definitely strong now, even though the PR penalty is atrocious under 6/20. I'm looking forward to more changes.

Mikel March 10 2008 11:10 PM EDT

Well no matter how you do it, you have to factor in the top USD spenders carefully, else lesser tanks will be forced to switch.

Now with that aside. There is always going to be someone willing to spend USD on the game to gain a competitive edge, or just because we simply enjoy spending USD on a game that they enjoy.

So again, make us give up our tanks, and we'll just spend it on AG's, NSC's, AoF's or other Mage specific gear to get back ahead. Then where do we go from there? Back to nerfing Mages to make tanks a viable option again?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] March 10 2008 11:13 PM EDT

i have made my suggestions in the usd thread. what is your suggestion then mikel? let the usd spenders own the game?

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] March 10 2008 11:18 PM EDT

You've got SIX rounds of ranged... the largest evasions in the game are being hit...


Mikel March 10 2008 11:32 PM EDT

"Why don't you guys have a little more patience?"

That's fine and dandy ULord, but I didn't start this thread (and I have never started a thread about how overpowered it is), and my participation up to this point in threads similar to this has been minimal. I have tried my best to stay out of them and just let others go back and forth.

But this time I entered it and brought forth some hardcore data to back up my side of the fence, which has not been done up to this point that I was aware of.

So are people agreeing or disagreeing that an increase of 2 mil dex will only give you about a 60% chance to hit one round earlier is fair with all other things constant? So to give myself a 100% (or close to it) I would need to increase my Dex by 3.3 mil on top of the 4.5 mil Dex that I already have. That's a 73% increase in just one stat that I would have to do just to hit one round earlier. So now I'd have 8 mil dex. So I'd need to add another 7 mil to get to round 1. So 15 mil dex if all things remained constant.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] March 10 2008 11:50 PM EDT

jon has admitted to a balance issue and even asked for our input on how to best resolve it, which is in itself unique as far as i remember. the truly frustrating thing is the most of the energy in the forums is spent still trying to prove an imbalance and backing that imbalance up with data and trying to one-up each other as to who has it the worst.

after the response from the community on this matter, i can see why jon doesn't ask for our input more often!

Mikel March 10 2008 11:51 PM EDT

"i have made my suggestions in the usd thread. what is your suggestion then mikel? let the usd spenders own the game?"

Not necessarily true, but if a USD spender has a solid strat, then it should be very hard and be creative to devise a strategy to beat them (not just train one thing, slap on an RoBF and stop them all in their tracks).

"You've got SIX rounds of ranged... the largest evasions in the game are being hit...


Oh and you know that I'm hitting every evasion out there right now?
And with the damage reduction of ranged, I have to hit hard now when I get my one hit in.
vs Conundrum, I win-stalemate at a ratio of about 60-40.
vs Karn's massive Evasion, sometimes I get lucky because he doesn't have much hp, but I have stalemated him, but I didn't want to drag my score down even more and not get any xp from it to text it more than a couple of times. But I did point it out to a few people that I stalemated a minion that was barely 1/3 my MPR.

QBsutekh137 March 10 2008 11:53 PM EDT

Guys, this is actually a fairly good-natured discussion...chillax one and all...

dude asked it best... What are your thoughts on USD, Mikel?

I'll go one better... I'm fine with you spending USD on exponentially growing items (as you state -- AGs, NSCs...). That just means you'll have +1 better. If that's all it takes, and if you are willing to spend that money, I am so OK with that you wouldn't even believe me. Relegate yourself to the attic, and we'll all just ignore you.

But that's not the problem. The problem is the USD folks who are "in the thick" with the rest of us. If you get more than anything marginal, hell yes we are going to notice. And whine. *smile* (novice, for the record, I don't see Mikel "whining" here any more than Draco "whined" on his thread...all in quotes, because it's all subjective...)

Wait, that's this thread. *lol* Heh, lol in asterisks. What the hell does that mean? *laugh* There, that's better.

Let's just recognize Mikel and Draco are on the edge of a polarizing situation... The fact that items get uber, and MPR can't keep up, but has distinct advantages of its own. If I were in a negotiating mood, I'd tell Draco to disregard the high-NW aberration, and would tell Mikel "what's the problem?" If I were in a fightin' mood, I'd tell Draco, "RIGHT ON!" and would tell Mikel, "defend yo'self however you can!"

All with quotes. Because they are quotations.

What's right?

Drunk frogs making love in an illuminated swamp during a hurricane (while gagged and blindfolded and drinking bourbon).

Take THAT Raymond Carver!

Mikel March 11 2008 12:45 AM EDT

Man do I ever miss Chappy.
Chappy was a master at not only pumping his own gear, but doing the little things to keep Ranger and myself on our toes constantly. Usually, he could almost always beat one of us, and it wasn't just dump more cb2 into it to do it either.
He would make little tweaks to his strat and start winning, then you'd have to figure out what he did that is causing you to lose and make a tweak to your own strat to get back on top of him again. Rinse and repeat.

Now the reason I bring this up, is there is several groups of players in the game with the basics being.
USD vs Non-USD
and some sub-categories:
high MPR vs low MPR
Bad strats vs good strats vs unique strats
NUBs vs Vets
and probably more.

Now, of course I get upset when someone is beating me, but then I ask myself, did they spend more money than me? is their strat a unique one that is tailored to beat strats like mine? do they have more MPR than me?

Usually if I can answer yes to any of those questions, then I'm OK with them beating me because they've worked hard to reach that point. Then I start tweaking (switch gear around, train something, spend usd as a last resort) or what ever I can do to get them back on my list without sacrificing anyone else.

Sounds like a fun game, and that is one of the reasons that you'll hear Ranger refer to this game as a game of Chess. You make a move, he counters.

Now when something is too strong that you have to do something excessive to overcome it, then you know it is a bit overpowered.

Personally, I would've rather had seen a harder evasion nerf, than a reduction of damage and more ranged rounds. With the fix to the BG"s ranged damage from Archers dropped quite a bit.

Melee is almost useless now and used to at least be a viable option. Now a melee team has to go thru 6 rounds of ranged, +3-4 more if the other team has evasion trained before getting a chance to hit.

Now about USD vs Non USD, to me it's an all or nothing thing. As long as one person can buy Cb2, then they are going to have a slight advantage over everyone else, even if they fall into a bad strategy category.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] March 11 2008 3:29 AM EDT

Without evasion there is NO strat that will touch you as ranged currently exists. Ranger is busy posting seriously low end numbers as if his bow was a pea shooter, and you're talking about how you miss being challenged while at the same time making Todd style threats about switching to mage if evasion isn't "fixed". Evasion did get lowered, Ranged got a serious boost against the only method outside of evasion that could be used as a counter (kill slots) and yet when someone offers you a chance you're ready with the same old lines...

BootyGod March 11 2008 4:07 AM EDT

Yeah... I liked my kill slots... :(

Hyrule Castle March 11 2008 4:41 AM EDT

give gear and weapons durrability...

make it so they can break!

that way the super bows will cost 5m in the store to repair... and you get 10k fights with it...

(i think this is what freed meant i just skimmed through a little)

and i dunno how hard that would be to impliment...
but by having people use the Blacksmith it does get rid of CBmoney and perhaps help the economy

Freed for prezident!

Soxjr March 11 2008 5:22 AM EDT

I'm not getting in this discussion because I'm not fighting about it anymore, but one comment to help out here. I understand novice where you are coming from, but look at it from my perspective. Yes, ranger and mikel and G_Beee with freeds bow can hit all your huge evasions, but what about ME. How will I ever hit any one of you? NEVER.. that is the answer. I can't get a bow high enough to ever hit. I'm currently at +150 and now with my EB's my DX is up to almost 3.5 mil but I'm still so far below the 5 mil defensive dx some have and then multiply that in the ranged rounds and I need close to 8 mil or higher dx to get a hit that way and I'll be darned if I will ever get a hit from my + on my weapon. So yea. I understand that you want to compete vs the USD, but try to think about the NON-USD out there. Unless this is going to be USD = tank, and NON-USD = mage blender. If that is true, then I need to sell everything and get myself some mage armor.

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] March 11 2008 9:40 AM EDT

Sox I hate to say it but as far as I'm concerned CB has always been this way. If you want to run a tank at the top you should be a USD spender/ good trader/rental business/camper otherwise you run a mage.

Tezmac March 11 2008 10:21 AM EDT

"Sox I hate to say it but as far as I'm concerned CB has always been this way. If you want to run a tank at the top you should be a USD spender/good trader/rental business/camper otherwise you run a mage."

Bingo!! I've always seen CB as follows. At the top, you've got USD spending tanks who don't miss BA. Below that, you've got mages run by people who know they can't compete unless they spend USD (and they don't) and they also don't miss BA. Then you've got everyone else.

In order to keep the game at all interesting for the mages at the top, you have to give them a way that they can win, or at least give them the false hope of winning. Hence evasion. Unfortunately, this makes life a pain for the second tier tanks, because they can't beat the high end mages and have no chance in hell of beating the high end tanks, thus they receive no challenge bonuses, thus they stay second tier.

Hence, USD spending sucks for everyone. Oh wait, this is the wrong thread. Oh, no it's not.

QBRanger March 11 2008 10:26 AM EDT

So lets give everyone a free untrain/retrain and see how many people will still play tanks.

As things are now, evasion will make my strategy obsolete in about 3-4 months.

I know people are celebrating right now. However, do we want mage blender? That is what CB is now quickly becoming. Or better yet, "Evasion Blender".

There have been quite a few very productive suggestions proposed.

Brakke Bres [Ow man] March 11 2008 10:29 AM EDT

Or up your arrows blender, this nub with 500k mpr less is actually hitting me in the third round of ranged. with 500k dex less and with only +101 on his bow vs my 143 evasion.

And the worst part is, since the ammo price was halved so did the upgrade price.

Tezmac March 11 2008 10:32 AM EDT

"So lets give everyone a free untrain/retrain and see how many people will still play tanks."

No one with less than 200M or so (not including tat) would even try to play USD Tank Blender. So you'd see a bunch of mages with huge evasions as it would be the only way to compete. So it'd pretty much look just like now except a little more dramatic.

"As things are now, evasion will make my strategy obsolete in about 3-4 months."

Cry me a river. USD is what made the top what it is. You built it, live in it.

QBRanger March 11 2008 10:40 AM EDT

Funny thing Tez.

I am not even in the top 5 of USD spenders. All the money I put into TAB was taken out when I sold out. I put far less into Koy. Remember I got the 200M MH for less then 60M and the DBs for 1/3rd their NW.

I guess my MPR and battles fought mean nothing.

But I'll cry you a river:

"Old man river....."

It is great when people who use the skill/item in question profess to it being just perfect. Not out of whack or anything. Especially those who have sold CB for USD and did not reinvest in their characters. Those people who cry that USD gives an advantage just crack me up.

That is really all I have to say in this thread. Certainly a statement that will cause joy amony some people.

Evasion is broken. If one wants USD=Tank and non-USD=mage, we have the perfect game. Ideas for fixing it have been brought up, some will help nerf myself and other USD spenders. I embrace most of them.

QBsutekh137 March 11 2008 10:40 AM EDT

I am not celebrating right now. My fight list hasn't changed. In fact, I had to take Double Trouble and pfffft off, and I didn't gain Failure (or anyone else).

What/Why would I be celebrating?

I assure that as long as weapons like Platypus Phlegm exist in the game, there will be at least one tank (and it will probably reside at or near the top of the score ladder).

QBsutekh137 March 11 2008 10:45 AM EDT

Oh: Double Trouble, pffft, and Failure? All tanks.

And I don't think Evasion (only) is broken. I think the game has simply gone too binary, too much rock/scissors/paper in everything from ranged offense to melee damage reduction. Been going in that direction for some time. Actually, "broken" is not the right word to use, because this has been a conscious direction Jonathan has chosen, and a lot of people enjoy it.

Remember, the fact that the game may simply evolve into something that certain people don't like (but more DO like it) is ALWAYS a distinct possibility. Games change and people playing them change too, and that's just the way it is sometimes.

Frost March 11 2008 10:47 AM EDT

this is a stupid thread people crying over evasion not being powerful enough that is the dumbest thing i ever heard. Dont cry cause the top bows can hit you they ARE THE TOP BOWS. this is just pathetic. Someone spends tons of cash and time into these bows and you want your crappy evasion mage to beat it? Why?

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] March 11 2008 10:47 AM EDT

Say broken again...

and now Beee adds me to his list... Archers are suffering so much...

QBsutekh137 March 11 2008 10:53 AM EDT

Well played hzarb -- The Lega is finally off my list! Starting to draw a lot... I will need to find out if he has changed things up or just grown enough to draw with me.

Another archer/tank...big AMF, sure, but I also fizzle all of his DEs (I don't think they are super big, though). Anyway, The Lega is a team I have always admired and considered a gift that I could beat, so that is kind of fun!

But it is also three folks off my fight list now -- what am I supposed to be celebrating again? I'm not asking for an Evasion buff, to be sure, but I'm certainly not celebrating anything either!

QBJohnnywas March 11 2008 10:55 AM EDT

Sut, I thought mages were ruling the roost? Isn't that what we're being sold lately?

QBsutekh137 March 11 2008 10:58 AM EDT

Actually, I rule that little attic-like area right below the roost. *smile* I call it the "least".

QBJohnnywas March 11 2008 10:58 AM EDT

Don't you keep bumping your head?

QBsutekh137 March 11 2008 11:27 AM EDT

At this point I mostly just tend to stay down. *smile*

QBJohnnywas March 11 2008 11:29 AM EDT

I'm getting to that point. Slowly but surely.

Mikel March 11 2008 12:53 PM EDT

"Cry me a river. USD is what made the top what it is. You built it, live in it."

I'll remember than next time I buy CB2 from you.

Tezmac March 11 2008 12:57 PM EDT

I began cashing out of this game long ago. In fact, I'm pretty sure that it's my original character that's getting this thread all up in arms (changed by Draco of course). There is no way to compete in this game without buying CB. I refuse to do so, thus, I play to make USD on the side. Call me a NUB forger without the NUB or forging I guess.

Soxjr March 11 2008 1:24 PM EDT

Well then if this is the way it's meant to be and people know it then really someone should make it known on the WIKI and have mentors tell their people that they should never try tank unless they have every intention of using USD. I mean it was never brought up to me that I had to use USD to compete as a tank. Oh and don't go and look at my score and say I'm competing... On a weekly basis I lose evasion people and know I will never get them back. I beat people usually lower than me and those that don't have evasion. I like beinga tank and will probably stay as one no matter what, but I doubt I will compete really.

Tezmac March 11 2008 1:26 PM EDT

"...but I doubt I will compete really."

You undoubtedly never will with your current character without USD. You need to buy minions while increasing your NW while buying your BA. Cash out whilst you can. :)

QBRanger March 11 2008 1:29 PM EDT

"Cash out whilst you can. :)"

Excellent thing to tell players, both new and old.

Great way to keep the game going!!!

Words to live by!!

Glad to have you as a part of CB!!!

Any more pearls of wisdom, perhaps suggest people multi as well??

Tezmac March 11 2008 1:36 PM EDT

Awww, are you miffed? I'm oh so sorry!

I'm not going to lie to the guy and tell him he has a chance. He has 110M NW and needs PR and more minions. He can't catch the top tier without USD, simple. He could start a NCB, but that costs CB which he doesnt have. He also doesn't have enough NW to cash out to buy the BA for the NCB.

He could sell his stuff, NCB, go mage, and buy all his BA. But then you'd be bitching about his evasion that he needs to combat the $2k worth of USD you've sunk into this game.

In short, go take a long walk off a short cliff.

QBRanger March 11 2008 1:38 PM EDT

"In short, go take a long walk off a short cliff."

Well stated, succinct, to the point and not too many extra words.

Just the type of point I expect from a sellout.

Now leave the conversations to those who want to play the game for fun.

Little Anthony March 11 2008 1:41 PM EDT

for (mpr =0; mpr < Ranger's mpr; mpr++)
If (mage = non-usd tank) && (non-usd tank < usd tank) then
System.out.print( Mage < usd tank forever);

QBRanger March 11 2008 1:43 PM EDT


Your program crashed.

A very fatal flaw was discovered, error code 007.

(mage = non-usd tank) should be (mage >>> non-usd tank)

Make such corrections as not to have another system failure and the Blue Screen of Death.

Brakke Bres [Ow man] March 11 2008 1:44 PM EDT

Anyone else up for a soda?
No really where is this thread going?
USD vs Evasion?

Ow and of course the main question here is, why are USD spenders dumping thousands and thousands of dollar into this game which you don't actually own nor one of the items your characters hold, even the characters aren't even yours to sell?

QBRanger March 11 2008 1:47 PM EDT

"Ow and of course the main question here is, why are USD spenders dumping thousands and thousands of dollar into this game which you don't actually own nor one of the items your characters hold, even the characters aren't even yours to sell?"

Best to ask the forum boards for Everquest, World of Warcraft, or any of the other multiplayer games.

I do it for my entertainment dollar. I could spend it on other things, but do enjoy the community and people in CB.

And the money I make playing poker more then pays for it.

Little Anthony March 11 2008 1:49 PM EDT

sorry about that; i just started this computer class this semester so I kind of want to show off my newbie computing skills hehehe.
But simply put i think mage >>> non USD tank right now is to balance mage vs. USD tank.
I have added Failure today ( a given example of Non-USD tank) with more Mpr than I. So, it is almost clear that non-USD tank is very close to not being able beat roughly equal mages.

Tezmac March 11 2008 3:14 PM EDT

Eh, you can call me a sellout, no skin off my back. I quickly realized there was no point trying to catch up as I won't play the USD game. Instead, I've made about $2,000 playing here and it's sitting in my Paypal account. Big screen, here I come!

QBRanger March 11 2008 5:03 PM EDT


I already have a big screen, 112 inches in fact. In my movie theater.

In addition to the 3 other LCDs in my house.

Is not the anticipation of a big screen just so much? The clear picture, the HD!

But wait, you have all that money sitting a PP account-Too bad you cannot enjoy it right now, this second.

I'll watch some HD for ya!!! And laugh all night.

Tezmac March 11 2008 5:06 PM EDT

Oooh, you're loaded. Congratulations!

QBRanger March 11 2008 5:09 PM EDT


The Superbowl on HD was amazing. One could see the grass under the cleats of the receivers on closeups.

Cannot wait till you can get one. Spend that 2k wisely. Do not make a mistake on which one to buy. It can be heartbreaking if you make the wrong decision. I already had to return 2 of them for less the optimal picture.

Tezmac March 11 2008 5:28 PM EDT

Oh I know. I was watching it on my 6 40000" plasmas that I have lined up in a grid such that they take up the entire wall that is the castle in which I live. I could actually see the Pert Plus that Eli was using in his hair that day as I rode my Segway down the hall.

But I digress. The LCD I'm saving for is going to be installed in my shower. Now I know that this will probably ruin the TV, but who cares! I'll just get another! Doesn't it make you feel so good to go on and on about how much money you have? Gosh, I know it makes me feel better! Makes that whole Doctor/God complex come full circle!

Soxjr March 11 2008 5:36 PM EDT

funny. this thread has turned into a who has the bigger box of toys. Really. the IQ and age level of this thread has gone down to the level of a 4 year old.

Disclaimer: No disrespect to 4 year olds intended.

Mikel March 11 2008 5:37 PM EDT

enough you two.
Take it to PM if you have nothing constructive to add to the discussion or can't stay on topic.

I regret that I ever mention you sell out for usd.

QBRanger March 11 2008 5:39 PM EDT

I will have to try a TV in the shower.

And you are the classic person who does not realize how much time/effort one has to put into a career to become a physician.

One cannot do it without over 8 years schooling, 4+ years of residency, and then countless days of no sleep, every case could be a patients death.

I spend money on CB, correct. I do it as entertainment.

I will always think of you watching your 13inch tv when I am watching mine.

Phrede March 11 2008 6:14 PM EDT

This really sucks - whats happening to cb ?

AdminG Beee March 11 2008 7:11 PM EDT

I get to have the last word on a thread that started with my user name in the opening paragraph.

Nope, forget the last word, this thread deserves a new smiley...

This thread is closed to new posts.