The NUB is a lie. (in General)
March 10 2008 10:43 AM EDT
The way it works, newbies start the game getting a certain amount of $$$ and EXP per fight. The amount increases as they play and reach 100% challenge bonus, and decreases as the challenge bonus does. This seems like normal play to them.
BUT IT IS NOT. They don't realize it, but their rewards will drop to (something like 1/5, with the current bonus) when it ends...yeah, some of them know, and they realize the bonus will drop. But they don't actually comprehend just how hard this'll hit their rewards, and they feel like their fighting comes to an absolute standstill.
Time for NUB testimony!
PainKiller, 6:40 AM EDT
I can actually test it again now that my NUB expired. fighting just seem so pointless with like 100 XP and 500 gold per fight.
PK has already stated he intends to sell out at some point; I don't blame him. If I played a game and in 4 months I'm hit with a penalty that drops my rewards to tiny proportions, I'd probably think "looks like it's time to quit" too. If there's truly any interest in reducing the number of NUB sellouts (I agree with JW - there aren't as many as the hype would have you think, but nonetheless) then this would -have- to change.
Plain and simple, NUB is a lie. They think the game is one way, and then it's chopped off. There is almost no incentive to continue playing if they haven't reached a certain high MPR point and are competitive or unless they plan on using their experience and money to run a NCB...
*cough* this wouldn't be a problem with a rolling bonus. *cough*
perhaps NUB should end in a transitional way. Bonuses decreasing over time, over perhaps a longer period of time. Lower the bonus add another month and make BA not free?
I understand what's going on though, if I didn't get a chance to make up for my character with my NUB forging bonus, I would be a less serious player than I am today. It feels kinda hopeless if you need 2 years to make up for 4 months lost.
March 10 2008 10:52 AM EDT
Um, yeah, well, the NUB is basically a one-time shot. If you do it right - like Anthony - you're set for life :P. If you do it wrong.. well, then you end up like me with a mediocre character and a tiny new NCB~
Start the bonus after a month of play...
though PK does seem pretty well set off. He does have good equips. He would do just fine with an NCB.
March 10 2008 11:02 AM EDT
"fighting just seem so pointless with like 100 XP and 500 gold per fight."
Boohoo freekin' hoo! Let me try to shed a tear or feel compassion... Nope. Can't. Nothing. Nada!
Seriously. If a user doesn't notice the huge NUB reward value displayed after EVERY challenge and also doesn't notice the gazillions of threads longingly mentioning the the free NUB BA... well... then... I apologize but I can't write what I think in any polite sort of way.
The NUB is not a lie. The NUB, in my opinion, is there to be used to experiment with multiple types of strategy so once the NUB is over, you can choose one that you like. Anyone with any trace of economic knowledge also ends up with tons of CB$ at the end of the NUB so starting a NCB with a preferred strategy is the logical next step.
Little_Antony is another good example of someone who used the NUB perfectly by finding a good strategy and sticking with it until the end. Kudos to him. He can now decide to sell his character for CB$ and start a NCB or stick with it and slowly take it the rest of the way to the top 10 (if he doesn;t flat out reach it during his NUB).
NUB is a lie. I think not! It is a very useful way to help new users get a head start and if they can't realize WITHIN 4 MONTHS that things get harder once it ends, then... again... I have nothing polite to write about what I feel.
March 10 2008 11:05 AM EDT
But Talion, all they've KNOWN through those 4 months is 3000 XP! $5000 cash! and they know it'll end and be lower....and then it ends and it's like WHOA. 200 XP and $500 cash, at the very best?
I can sympathize with that. It would be a total shocker.
So IMO, seeing this from the newbie's perspective and NOT that of a vet who has seen these rewards all along, the NUB totally misleads them as to how they will advance this game over their career in it.
March 10 2008 11:05 AM EDT
"Start the bonus after a month of play..."
Ding, ding, ding. We have a winna!!
March 10 2008 11:06 AM EDT
Make bonus a pool of BA instead of inflated rewards. I've been saying that on every single one of these threads... No interest.
March 10 2008 11:07 AM EDT
I still think that's a good idea sut, especially in comparison to what we've got going on now....
March 10 2008 11:08 AM EDT
"Make bonus a pool of BA instead of inflated rewards. I've been saying that on every single one of these threads... No interest."
That might be dangerous as it will not appeal to users who cannot stay logged on for extended periods of time.
How about a bonus for everyone, calculated at cache flush, would allow everyone to reach the top MPR in a given time frame according to the MPR difference and rewards.
March 10 2008 11:15 AM EDT
I agree. Since it updated over time, we could call it a rolling bonus!
/me is 100% on the boat with pau1 on this one.
March 10 2008 11:20 AM EDT
Talion, the pool would be a pool. Always there, as long as the user wanted. Not a daily limit or disappearing reservoir. As slow or as fast as they wanted. And we could all see how many BA they had left in the pool, just like we can see remaining time in NUB now.
The big issue with that, and the one I have no solution for, is clanning.
But as far as getting the BA burned, the new user could take as long as they needed with that, learning the game as they went. Striking while the iron was hot, so to speak, and learning with BA that is more "real" than bonus BA (as well stated by the original post in the thread).
To add onto my earlier post:
Make this "Roling Bonus" so the user can catch up within a year if he/she does not miss a single BA at a bit high BA price than what it is set at now (not much for my next point)
Keep NUB and NCB to allow for those to try and catch the top in 4 months still.
March 10 2008 11:22 AM EDT
I agree with a lot of this. Having stumbled into this game on my own I definitely did not use the NUB to the best of my ability and when it ended it was a bit of a let down. (I still love the game but that's not at issue here).
"Start the bonus after a month of play..."
The problem with this is starting off is hard enough with the NUB bonus, with out it I believe quite a few people wouldn't make it past the first month.
Another tough nut for the CB think tank to crack.
March 10 2008 11:23 AM EDT
Sutekh - as long as they got the same amount of normal BA and bought BA as everyone else, wouldn't the solution be simply for pool BA to be non-CP earning? (might be difficult to program in, I don't know, but I do know BA can be altered since we have normal BA and tourney BA)
""Rolling bonus" is tipping the scales too far in the "it doesn't matter how hard you work because your bonus will even things out" direction."
Jon's answer about the rolling bonus.
But really, I see no real difference between slacking for a month and coming back to a rolling bonus, or slacking for a month then creating a new NCB with bigger bonus.
Except for the rolling bonus you can keep your existing character and not have to make a new one every time you decide not to slack off.
March 10 2008 11:25 AM EDT
Heck, you can slack from Jan 1 '05 and come back today if you have enough USD.
March 10 2008 11:26 AM EDT
Oh yeah, OB, I remember that thought in a previous thread (probably was you there too *smile*).
But yes, that would make the BA programming a bit hairier (or maybe not) depending on how it is currently implemented. Knowing the "source" of each BA could be tricky, but then would solve the problem of clan points...
March 10 2008 11:28 AM EDT
Just for clarification, a pool of BA would NOT make the NUB more accurate in terms of reaching 95% of top dog. Trying to put a number on that pool would be the same as trying to decide the bonus rewards.
The difference in the pool is that folks could use as little or as lot of their pool as they grow, so they would probably be more efficient in building a character (my opinion, anyway). Yes, they would have a lot more 100% challenge bonuses early on, but their growth would soon get them up to the higher levels where that levels off regardless of how you got there.
I think Jonathan has more distaste for the BA pool idea than the rolling bonus idea, actually. *smile*
Maybe when you goto Manage characters, have an option to "Start Rolling Bonus" to start the rolling bonus clock for 6 or 12 months (Whichever Jon feels comfortable with), which would mean you cannot miss BA for that 6 or 12 months in order to catch #1. Don't make it? Tough luck, this was your "second chance". No more rolling bonus. But you'd be able to use this "Rolling Bonus" (once) whenever your NUB/NCB runs out, or just whenever for normal characters.
March 10 2008 11:31 AM EDT
Sorry, one more post: With the rolling bonus idea, how to you distinguish between NUB and NCB? Isn't that Jonathan's point? New users are meant to get higher experience AND cash. New characters only get higher experience. How would that be accounted for in a rolling bonus?
If the rolling bonus has some sort of time-ranged monetary bonus too (for new users only), then that sort of makes the whole thing kind of goofy, and still makes new players prone to selling out when they have a lot of cash at the end of that time period...
Small, then it's not really a rolling bonus, but a 6/12 month NCB. ;)
Sute, New Users would still get a seperate 4 month increased Cash reward bonus.
No problem there! ;)
Gah, missed your last para.
But selling out isn't a problem, is it. ;)
Nah, it's 4 months of NCB, if you don;t catch #1 by the end of it. You have to use the "Rolling Bonus", but in order to gain that extra 200k to get to #1 you will need to use every BA in that 6 months, not just 5 days which is what the NUB/NCB does with its permanent % bonus.
March 10 2008 11:36 AM EDT
Sut - but if their EXP bonus is slowly decreasing as they catch up, adjusting for where they are on the curve, they don't have a massive dropoff on that point.
They would end their NCB with the money to finance a competitive strategy, without a huge EXP dropoff, and no change to their EXP fight rewards.
I think that would mean less shock value and less likelihood of selling out. I could be wrong of course, I can't predict anyone's mentality, but it seems like it to me.
March 10 2008 11:37 AM EDT
"So IMO, seeing this from the newbie's perspective and NOT that of a vet who has seen these rewards all along, the NUB totally misleads them as to how they will advance this game over their career in it."
I am a vet and I remember the end of my NUB. I was prepared for it because it is impossible to ignore the thousands of warnings given to me in dozens of different ways throughout the entirety of the NUB period. Yes, literally thousands of warnings. Although I didn't have a big character to show for my NUB, I had lots of CB$ saved up to deal with the end of the bonus period. And when I played, BA wasn't even free. If it had been free, I would have had millions more to show for it.
The NUB would be misleading if it didn't flash thousands of warnings in giant neon signs in front of every NUB user's face every time they spend BA. No one and nothing is misleading anybody. That is just not true.
March 10 2008 11:56 AM EDT
maybe the NUB should come into effect for 4 months on random days through out a new players first year. this would force them to join standard clans in order to maximize that bonus. also NUB forger sellouts would be nuetralized because they would not know which days to forge on and leaving, joining clan after clan would be too much of a pain in the butt and a waste of time. so NUb days would be totally random for all new players..is this possible?
March 10 2008 12:18 PM EDT
Random, half-baked idea:
Pick one or two days per week where the NUB bonus (incl. free BA) have no effect at all and extend the NUB for the amount of days lost. Supporter NUBs can pick the days, while non-supporter NUBs have it based on the day they join, so their first X Days is always NUB bonus. This could give a taste of what life is like and help the acclimatisation process.
March 10 2008 12:37 PM EDT
Unfortunately all this is old news. We all know what is happening and the way to fix it. However it is Jon's game/world. This is like what? the 100th post about this? Jon gave his thoughts on a Rolling Bonus, and dismissed it. He also gave them on the length of the N*B. I doubt we will change his mind. That said, I agree completely with you OB.
March 10 2008 12:55 PM EDT
I still don't see how a rolling bonus will work in regards to cash. Your asking for a rolling bonus on MPR and a 4-month new player bonus on cash? So essentially twice the work for Jonathan (implementing two bonus plans), and still the possibility of new players wanting to sell out after 4 months? I can completely see why Jonathan isn't interested in that, even if he doesn't think the sell-out issue is that big of a deal...
I really like the BA pool idea. The thing I've always hated about NUB and NCB is that they don't have to work as hard for the rewards. At least with a pool, they still have to click the dang button to get the reward, just like the rest of us, but on the other hand they have a chance to reach the the top.
March 10 2008 1:17 PM EDT
This is what I proposed a while ago:
Based on this formula:
100% - (your mpr/top MPR)%.
So a new character would get 100% character bonus while someone 1/2 the top MPR would get 50%. Someone 75% of the top MPR would get a 25% bonus.
This bonus would apply to all characters who are not the top MPR.
For new players this bonus would apply to money and xp, for accounts older then 6 months apply only to xp.
Bought BA would be free the first 4 months and normal price after that for all characters.
This would let those near the top, ie people like NWO, get a bonus of about 6-7%.
If someone buys minions to take the top spot, then the former top spot then gets a bonus to try to retake the top spot.
No time limit on the bonus, it is just there. Recalculated each day at cache flush.
Leave clans alone in this situation as the character bonus would get someone within 1% of the top MPR accounting for the difference in the 1st to 5th place clan given equal rewards from fights/battles etc...
But right now, almost anything is better then the bonus structure we have now.
March 10 2008 1:21 PM EDT
So, like I said -- two bonus implementations, a rolling bonus for MPR and a 6-month new player bonus for cash. Two bonus implementations where we now have one, and the implementations being different (Jonathan would still have to guesstimate how much cash rewards should inflate, so that aspect would still be something tricky).
Don't get me wrong, the rolling bonus for MPR does solve a lot of issues (especially the minion purchase scenario). I am just saying I understand why Jonathan might consider having two separate bonuses to maintain might be considered less than elegant in his eyes.
March 10 2008 1:31 PM EDT
I'm sorry. I was a NUB and enjoyed my bonus. I also got a 3 week time frame where my bonus was crazy high because of a nub % fix just like this recent one. I knew that as soon as my nub was over my rewards would go to "normal" and actually asked what that "normal" was. If you are shocked by it I feel it's because you aren't living in reality. This is where the NUB spoils people... The nub is meant to help a person get a good start so they can push and grind like the rest of the people in the game once it's over. A person like PK that decided to forge instead of fight and doesn't have a char worth a darn now. well that was his decision. I am with a few others in this thread. I feel there is no lie with the nub. There is just nub's that don't live in reality and understand it's going to end and the game will get to be "normal" for them too.
If that makes certain people quit, then that's sad, but if they liked the game with the nub then they should still like it without it. They have to realise they got in 4 months what some people took years to do... and now they are back to normal rewards and it will take TIME for things to be accomplished instead of getting it immediately.
Sute, their are already two different bonuses the NUB and NCB are difefrnet in implementation. What with the Free BA and increased cash rewards for one and the noral cash reward and increased BA cost for the other.
The XP bonus is the same for both.
How would changing the XP side to a rolling bonus and keeping the other parts distinct (as they already are) be any more effort?
March 10 2008 2:05 PM EDT
Not a bad point, but I feel the implementations are quite a bit more different than the current NCB and NUB... But I suppose that is a matter of opinion, and a matter if implementation details...
"But they don't actually comprehend just how hard this'll hit their rewards, and they feel like their fighting comes to an absolute standstill.
Time for NUB testimony! "
<[TH]Carnival_of_Carnage> I figured losing my NUB would be like hitting a brick wall... but it was worse... like I just hit one giant brick
<[iforgetwho]> like a cohesive megabrick
<[iforgetwho]> That would be a good name for someone's wall minion :P
my idea for the cash rewards issue in regards to a rolling bonus is just to give free ba for nubs, as done now and extend that time period they get it free. with not having to buy ba, the regular money rewards should be sufficient to gear up over time.
as for how long to extend the free ba for nubs, it would need to be more than the present four months, and guesstimated as well. the rest of us, non-nubs, would just get the rolling bonus but have to pay for daily ba as usual.
this solution doesn't really create any extra cash in the cb market than current non bonus users and i think would reduce the cash on hand to be traded for usd.
March 10 2008 4:47 PM EDT
That is another excellent idea. Something that would help with the multiple problems the present system gives.
A person like PK that decided to forge instead of fight and doesn't have a char worth a darn now.
I believe I have forged exactly twice, once on a exec sword thinking forging is quick and easy (except I get 1 whole + after a day's BA) and on the last day of NUB (might as well get something out of the last NUB forging bonus).
average new player isn't going to know what the optimal strategy is and how to actually run it to top 95%. I think 1.5-2m mark is average for someone with a learning curve to the game. (need confirmation)
I do believe in rolling bonus based on MPR, but that merely change what a XP is worth and the whole curve. I believe then your "real" MPR would be taking log or something. my brain fails to give me the answer.
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