Seems the N*B is about right. (in General)

QBRanger March 24 2008 3:59 PM EDT

Here are the MTL of the top characters:

Max Tattoo Level: 9,722,463

Max Tattoo Level: 8,995,397

Max Tattoo Level: 8,714,307

Max Tattoo Level: 8,663,599 with 1 week of the accelerated N*B to go.

King of Pain:
Max Tattoo Level: 8,445,337

Max Tattoo Level: 8,340,775

Yes, FTW used a ROE for most of the NUB and bought 2 minions. But with 1 week left on the accelerated NUB, he is likely going to be 2nd or 3rd in MTL. About 90% of the top MTL.

I believe the N*B is right on target.

Talion March 24 2008 4:04 PM EDT

Great news!

Ulord[NK] March 24 2008 4:05 PM EDT

I'm debating whether to start a new ncb or run my current one with all my might. I will make it to 6/20 if I hire another minion... It would be interested to see when the first batch of new ncbs finish their run without buying BA... I wonder how far they'll get.

QBRanger March 24 2008 4:07 PM EDT

Some can, and likely will state that LA HAD to use the ROE and HAD to buy 2 minions.

That is a very valid point, but if the N*B was raised, then he used the ROE and bought all 3 minions, imagine what his MPR/MTL would be. It would destroy Koy's and accelerate the vicious cycle of accelerated growth.

With another minion, perhaps LA might take over the top spot. That would be excellent. But it took a lot of dedication, fighting with the ROE almost the whole time, and spending CB2 to buy minions. I do not believe anyone will get upset with LA's accomplishment given his dedication.

Let us see more N*Bs do the same!!

QBRanger March 24 2008 4:08 PM EDT


I think the biggest question on my mind, and perhaps others, is:

What will your MPR get to if you do not buy BA except during xp time?

Can one get to the 6 BA regeneration holy grail?

Talion March 24 2008 4:12 PM EDT

To reply to Ranger, I think they probably can.

I missed 3 crazy XP times this month which amounts to about 100K MPR. I think that with them, I would reach 2M MPR before the start of April. That would have put me on pace to reach a MPR over 2.7M before the end of my NCB while buying BA only during crazy XP times.

I did buy almost all my BA up until the bonus adjustment though.

Ulord[NK] March 24 2008 4:12 PM EDT

I think I'm fairly certain the answer would be yes, given the use of RoE. I was able to hit 2mil mpr without any RoE usage after the rescale. That's just my gut feeling though. It would be real nice to not worry about PR limitation on gear choices and splurge on good equipments.

Ancient Anubis March 24 2008 4:24 PM EDT

isn't max tat level based on character mpr if so how is FTWs bigger than King of Pain

AdminG Beee March 24 2008 4:35 PM EDT

I don't think it's spot on yet.

If the intention is for the N*B to get to 95% then that should be without a RoE otherwise you end up with a player at 95% MPR and no tattoo to equip at the end of the run.

IMO N*B users should be unable to equip a RoE.

As for the hiring of minions - well, that's a problem I have no solution for - I don't know how to compensate for single minion users buying additional minions once their N*B is complete. Should we even try..? I mean the cost of hiring minions isn't cheap.

Talion March 24 2008 4:38 PM EDT

"IMO N*B users should be unable to equip a RoE."

Amen to that.

QBRanger March 24 2008 4:39 PM EDT


I agree, the ROE should not be usable by N*B characters.

However, given that it is, one has to look at the whole picture.

I know minions are expensive, but LA was able to buy 1 easily with the NUB money.

If ROE's can still be used on N*B characters, the N*B is just fine.

IMO of course.

Ulord[NK] March 24 2008 4:40 PM EDT

90% of MPR is more than enough to defeat the top player given the right strategy and equipment, which takes time to build up. It'll also bring the clan fights to the top. I think that target is fair. As for RoE, there is the clear opportunity cost of foregoing tattoo usage and raising. It's hard, if not impossible to get a massive tattoo fitful for LA's use. Nobody ever sells 3mil+ level tattoos in the last 6 months.

QBRanger March 24 2008 4:42 PM EDT

More on what Beee pointed out.

Just look at LA right now. A high MPR character with no tattoo.

But then again, it is a choice LA had. Use a ROE vs using a tattoo.

Choice is good.

QBsutekh137 March 24 2008 4:50 PM EDT

Anubis, I believe MTL must be based on VPR... Looks like LA has not trained anything on his new minion yet (not sure why not).

Once that is done, it looks like his MPR might surpass Mikel's, or maybe I am just high.

QBRanger March 24 2008 4:51 PM EDT


MTL is based on VPR.

NightStrike proved that a bit ago.

When/if LA trains and when his NUB is over, I would not be surprised if he is 2nd highest in MPR.

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] March 24 2008 4:53 PM EDT

Ancient Anubis, 4:24 PM EDT
"isn't max tat level based on character mpr if so how is FTWs bigger than King of Pain"

Its based on VPR, so with the hiring of the 3rd minion he passed Mikel's MPR

QBsutekh137 March 24 2008 4:56 PM EDT

Pretty much no matter what he turns that next minion into, I'm probably pretty much toast... I'm guess he will make it an MgS wall, that's what I would probably do since he is already devoted to DM... Unless he wants more DM... The suspense is killing me! *smile*

Little Anthony March 24 2008 5:00 PM EDT

i would love that hint about Mage Shield. However, there is none floating around nor on sell anytime soon i assume :(

Wizard'sFirstRule March 24 2008 5:16 PM EDT

easy. just increase the N*B by about another 10% and fighting bonus ceases as soon as you get to 95% of top MPR (maybe open up forging or cheaper store/less auction fees for the rest of N*B)

Sickone March 24 2008 5:24 PM EDT

The only problem is that tatoo level and stuff like that doesn't really matter all that much when you can always buy CB$ with USD. All he needs is to buy a huge tattoo with USD or CB$ gained from USD, I'm sure there are plenty of decent-level tats for sale if the price is right.

Also, since BAs cost so much for a NCB, and CB$ intake is not at all boosted like in NUB, buying CB$ for USD in case you want to get a chance of getting to the top with a NCB is almost mandatory too.

Either way, since there's only a handfull of active users (303 in the past week, was it), it's downright laughable how much cash you have to pump into the game if you don't get it "just right" from the very first go.
I started a NCB myself, just to look in horror at how much BAs cost... I don't plan on buying any as soon as I hit 9/20 refresh rate, to be honest.

It's really sad that real-life money is an ALMOST mandatory prerequisite to "being good", alongside a downright OCD login behaviour (10/20 BA regen rate, less than 6 hours for BA cap, ridiculous).
But then again, I suppose I'm barking up the wrong tree... so I guess I'll just shut up now.

Ulord[NK] March 24 2008 5:32 PM EDT

You can't always buy big tattoos even if you have money... I would never part with mine no matter what the offer is. Again, there hasn't been a single large tatt over 3mil for sale for the last 6 months. This will change with the new NCB and accelerated growth of course. As for becoming the top player? USD investment is almost mandatory... Even then the BA cost is prohibitively high.

Mikel March 24 2008 5:58 PM EDT

All I can say is,
People might quit and come back as NUB's because of the high price of the NCB.
That and I haven't trained in 2 weeks.

Sickone March 24 2008 6:01 PM EDT

To be honest, I was tempted to quit, sell everything for USD, let my character die, and come back as NUB a couple of months later, buy back all for USD... just BECAUSE of that.
Although, since I'm not a [Admin Edit]: unpg I kindly refrained from taking that course of action, even if I somehow doubt it's "illegal".

Sickone March 24 2008 6:07 PM EDT

Question : wouldn't it make a lot more sense to simply include the "free BA" a NUB gets into a slightly higher "XP only" bonus for the NCBs... since,you know, NCBs don't get extra CB$ while fighting.

In other words, NUBs get +33% BA if they spend it all (much more than that if they only login once per day)... so, make the NCB XP-only bonus at least 33% higher as the CB$/XP bonus of a NUB.

Besides, you had to abandon your previous character to start a NCB (for 4 months, or at least until the NCB gets to same BA regen rate as your highest other chars), so, afterall, why not reward "loyalty to the game" in some way ?

ActionAction March 24 2008 6:42 PM EDT

Well, honestly speaking..? Look at how much Ant has borrowed (and how much he's in debt), and tell me that isn't something comparable to the NCB? It might not be nearly as much, but dang, it sure is expensive :P.

In any case, Ant has done a wonderful job with his NUB. I imagine it'd be quite hard for many NUBs to match his dedication :). Although, someone else seems to be doing quite well with their NUB :).

AbbathorX March 24 2008 7:01 PM EDT


Now how does that help us new people whose NUB finished in January and was either 100 or 214% the whole way through?

Being forced to start over to accomplish anything due to bad timing?
Grinding along for years and still never catching the NUBs that whiz by us like we are standing still?

The only fair N*B is one that doesn't change. . .ever. . .

QBsutekh137 March 24 2008 7:08 PM EDT

Mikel, the MTL makes apparent that it doesn't matter how much you haven't trained -- LA will be higher MPR than you once he trains since his MTL is higher.

Ab, that is a good point. It is also a reason I think some of the ill will toward the bonus grows over time and gets harder to balance. Jonathan can't fix the people who have been shorted in the past, and the NCB costs too much to do over and over again without a large USD influx.

It's a tough issue...

lostling March 24 2008 8:36 PM EDT

1stly i would like to bring up supporter items... people keep complaining about the lack of it... but from what im seeing... its probably the only thing the "vets" have over the NUBs or whatever...
2ndly what about the normal players who didnt do so good on their nub... as the top keeps growing everyone else is gona die... remember what happened when ranger started to use an ROE...
3rdly i would like to call again for a reduction in cash rewards... and a lengthing of the NUB time... mostly because many many NUBs burn out... the 1 month before NUB bonus thing might work but yes its probably better... i would like to suggest a rescale of the NUB... a set NUB bonus BUT variable length of time depending on how long CB2 has been going on... basically a reverse of the current situation where we try to compress everything into 4 months...

three4thsforsaken March 24 2008 8:47 PM EDT

One thing I love about this game is that everyone has a chance to the top, compared to some games, when you are enter late, you have absolutely no chance.

However, as the top is in sight, it simply isn't an option for many vets who entered late, or NUBs who didn't benefit from the change, or simply didn't get really into the game until midway through the NUB.

But on the other hand, it is not healthy for the game for everyone to be able to get to such a really high MPR area, so a change that will make it easier on vets might still not be a good idea. I can only imagine if the norm was in the 2.5 million MPR range.

Just a thought.

Daz March 24 2008 9:20 PM EDT

"However, as the top is in sight, it simply isn't an option for many vets who entered late, or NUBs who didn't benefit from the change, or simply didn't get really into the game until midway through the NUB. "

Or joined on the first, played for 2-3 months and had to leave for one reason or another and came back much later...

Ulord[NK] March 24 2008 9:35 PM EDT

For the vets complaining about being stuck at a low MPR, here is the thing, if your MPR is below 2mil, start an NCB. You DO NOT need to spend on BA to get to 6/20, just an RoE will do and four months of dedicated fighting. I think the opportunity is definitely there. As for Little Anthony, he is the aberration to the norm. Far many more nubs waste their bonus. That being said, the system is not entirely unfair. Remember, with the right strategy, it is possible to take down targets with more MPR than you do as long as your MPR is comparably close. I'm gonna take a wild stab and guess but 2.5mil MPR is not impossible with heavy RoE usage under the current ncb without BA purchase. That's in range enough to take down the big boys, provided you have the right equipment. It's not a bad thing to force innovation and team optimization by granting experienced players less MPR to work with.

Relic March 24 2008 9:42 PM EDT

In order to make a claim that something is on target you have to use more than one case I am afraid or test it yourself.

It has already cost me almost 120 million in items and another 40 mil for BA purchasing so far. That is a far cry imo from being right on target.

I used my RoE for about 1 3/4 months. The reason I stopped was to start leveling my tattoo, otherwise I would have high MPR and be a complete wuss without a top level tattoo.

Sorry but the exp rewards might be in line, but the cost is silly still.
Just look at home much LA had to do to buy minions and items AND do not forget his BA was FREE!

QBRanger March 24 2008 9:51 PM EDT


We all know the cost of the NCB is excessive, however, Jon stated it will not drop.

This thread is about the MPR someone can reach if they do "everything" correct.

It seems to me that is titrated right.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] March 25 2008 11:32 AM EDT

It's not.

It should allow 95% without the use of a RoE, big picture be damned.

Anything else, and it's not working.

the bonuses haven't been designed to get nearly there, while requiring the use of a RoE.

If the RoE is a problem, then do as B said and not let bonus charcaters equip one.

But then what happens if the top spot you're trying to reach 95% of uses a RoE *after* you start (and therefore your bonus doesn't take that into account) and you can no longer reach 95% at all.

When currently (if the bonus was correct) you could use equivalent effort (use the RoE yourself) to reach that 95%.

Locking a bonus users out of the RoE effectively stops them having any chance of reaching 95%, if the Top spot ever decides to use a RoE...

Sickone March 25 2008 1:05 PM EDT

I still think a "rolling XP bonus" would be the best way to go.
That is, everybody gets an XP bonus boost all the time, the lower in MPR they are, the greater the XP bonus.
That leaves the CB$ bonus thingy, which will be the current value of the NCB bonus, but only for NCBs.
NUBs would stop existing, everybody would be permanently under the efect of a NUB-like XP boost as long as they are "below the top".

QBRanger March 25 2008 1:12 PM EDT


The Rolling Bonus is, IMO, a perfect solution. But my feeling does not matter. It is solely up to Jon.

But if one can get to 95% of Koy's MPR not using a ROE, image what MPR they would get if they use one?

Beee's solution is best. If the top decides to use a ROE, then let the N*Ber use the ROE after his N*B is over to catch up.

Hyrule Castle March 25 2008 1:21 PM EDT

yea but ranger, you have to take into acount that LA had a "rolling bonus" as the new bonus came when he was in the dead zone....which i'm sure helped him out

For the rest of us, we will get to the dead zone quickly, but not out as fast...

QBRanger March 25 2008 1:23 PM EDT

Good point.

I am unsure when the "super bonus" was enacted for LA in relation to the dead zone.

Little Anthony March 25 2008 1:50 PM EDT

very lucky : Dead zone --> Super bonus arrived --> Bought new minion right after --> BYE BYE Dead zone. Though, if it was not for the super bonus, i am still going to buy that minion to get out anyway. Negative bonus is a must at that dead zone without tattoo. (or super bow)

Talion March 25 2008 2:04 PM EDT

I just compare my MPR history graph to Little Anthony 's. We were following about the same curve until the adjustment. Then the bigger bonus he started getting combined with the free BA he has access to make the graph differences simply ridiculous. LOL!

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] March 25 2008 4:37 PM EDT

"But if one can get to 95% of Koy's MPR not using a ROE, image what MPR they would get if they use one?"

33% more than they would have?

Imagine Koy's MPR if Koy used one, the day after a new user started, and they didn't...

It just seems the RoE is a problem. Do we *really* need it?

Talion March 25 2008 4:40 PM EDT

"Do we *really* need it?"

There is no other method to transfer more XP to one minion in a multi minion team. I think that for any user hiring extra minions at high level, the RoE can be a "must have".

Tezmac March 25 2008 4:41 PM EDT

I think so! It's just another option. If I someone could afford all the BA required to make a good NCB run, they might try just sticking with the ROE and maxing out their MPR. They might not be worried about a tat and would rather just run away with the MPR show. I've thought about doing this...

QBRanger March 25 2008 5:07 PM EDT

I think we need it also,

But not on a N*B character.

If the top MPR character, Koy, used the ROE, it would be reflected in the N*B bonus when new characters starts.

If Koy uses a ROE during the subsequent 4 months, the MPR growth would be very small compared to the overall growth of the N*B from that time on.

When I did use a ROE, I gained about 120k MPR that month compared to my normal 100k MPR. So, using a ROE for the entire 4 months, that would give an additional 80k MPR. Out of close to 4M now, less then 3%. Not enough, IMO, to change my thoughts on N*B + ROE = NO.

Just my thoughts.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] March 25 2008 7:37 PM EDT

Ah! It's a 20% increase, not 33%! (Ignoring naming of course!)

Had a large thread of maths typed out (For the purpose of some stuff below take x to be the current size of the Top Spot at the moment of Bonus Cration and y the estimated amount of growth over 4 months). I can easily disregard it.

I was wrong, no matter if the Top Spot uses a RoE or not, if a Bonus character uses a RoE, with the size of x as it is now, compared to the fixed bonus tme frame of 4 motnhs, the RoE using Bonus character will always, out pace the Top spot. Given Equivalent effort of course.

And if the Top Spot uses a RoE to compete, it's actually worse for them, as later Bonus characters get that figured into thier bonus amounts, and can use a RoE on top! In essence, getting arounnd 14% larger than the Top Spot, instead of 5% smaller.

I've no idea for a fix to this. Stopping bonus characters from using the RoE isn't an option, as the Top Spot coud use sporadic equipping and un equipping (to keep estimated growth down) to make sure no Bonus character could reach 95% with equivalent effort. Maybe that's a 'tactic' CB would like to see?

Increasing the bonus time will only stave this off again, until the x portion becomes significantly larger than the y.

I throw my weight behind a rolling bonus again! :P

QBRanger March 25 2008 8:03 PM EDT

"I've no idea for a fix to this. Stopping bonus characters from using the RoE isn't an option, as the Top Spot coud use sporadic equipping and un equipping (to keep estimated growth down) to make sure no Bonus character could reach 95% with equivalent effort. Maybe that's a 'tactic' CB would like to see? "

If you look at the top 5 MPR characters, who would use a ROE?

I think all of us at the top wil use our tattoos to grow them.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] March 25 2008 8:06 PM EDT

It's not specific Ranger, it's why I never use Koy in these posts, but strickly remain to discussion the size of the Top Spot.

But I'm sure, you could most likely equip a RoE and still win. ;)

QBRanger March 25 2008 8:52 PM EDT

I cannot use the ROE anymore. There are quite a few now that are quite close to Koy. Esp with the evasion changes.

But I doubt anyone at the top will use the ROE since growing a tattoo is far better in the long run. There are a few exceptions however.

ActionAction March 25 2008 9:46 PM EDT

Did anyone else catch Lostling's suggestion? The one about not changing the % bonus, but the length instead? I think that's a perfect way to stop the recalibrations and the frustration that comes with finishing right before one such recalibration is done :). It would sort of be a compromise between the rolling bonus idea everyone seems to support, without it being too much of a "everyone gets a bonus no matter how hard they try" kinda thing.

lostling March 25 2008 10:53 PM EDT

nobody bothers to listen to me :) they roll over me with steam rollers

Sickone March 26 2008 12:06 AM EDT

So far we have:

* fixed duration, fixed bonus, variable bonus size set at start (the current situation)
* variable duration set at start, fixed bonus (first mentioned in thread by lostling)
* permanent bonus, variable size depending on distance to "target" (first mentioned in thread by yours truly)

Hmm, the more I think about it, and the more I remember reading other stuff (like the "dead zone", or how the most "profitable" area is in the HIGH regions of each BA regen tiers due to the adjusted rewards and so on and so forth), the more I think the answer should be so much simpler...

The "revamped" version :
* additional BA regen rates, 5/20 (for 80% of top MPR) and 4/20 (for 95% of top MPR)
* 40% XP bonus for every BA-regen tier below maximum (200% XP bonus for 10/20 BA regen, 160% XP bonus for 9/20 BA regen, down to 40% for 5/20 and no XP bonus at all for the 4/20 crowd)
* progressive 10% cash bonus for every BA-regen tier above minimum (no bonus for 10/20, 10% for 9/20, 30% for 8/20, 60% for 7/20, up to 210% for the 4/20 crowd)

It's simple, it's pertinent, and guarantees anybody can reach 95% of top MPR at any given time, IF they keep at it long enough.
Also, it makes it pretty damned obvious you're going to get more cash the higher up you go, so there's no good reason to "stay down" so you can exploit the 100% challenge bonus.

And last but not least, it makes it likely that some of the higher-ups would actually consider rolling a new character (and retiring their current one).
This thread is closed to new posts. However, you are welcome to reference it from a new thread; link this with the html <a href="/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002OAj">Seems the N*B is about right.</a>