Encumbrance and Evasion (in Changelog)


AdminJonathan April 3 2008 11:21 AM EDT

Evasion's ranged bonus is now 1/3 what it was. (I.e., 2/3 *less*.)

1H weapons do not miss the first round of melee.

Encumbrance.

Encumbrance works like this: you can equip a certain amount of NW without being encumbered. This amount depends on your HP and ST, and to a lesser degree (25%, to be precise), on your skills and spells trained. All the exp trained in these areas is added up and converted to a NW number. If your equipped NW is over that number, you take a linear penalty to evasion, DX, ST, AC, and DD damage.

The exact NW amount will be shown on your Equip page (it isn't yet, but will be RSN), but it can fluctuate in battle based on GS or EC enchantments. (AS does not count as HP and does not affect it.) The overall effect of encumbrance is shown post-battle.

8DEOTWP April 3 2008 11:29 AM EDT

I fear the worst for some

smallpau1 - Go Blues [Lower My Fees] April 3 2008 11:33 AM EDT

"This amount depends on your HP and ST"


"but it can fluctuate in battle based on GS or EC enchantments. (AS does not count as HP and does not affect it.)"


?

8DEOTWP April 3 2008 11:35 AM EDT

if you're cut down to 1/3 your ST and DX by someone's EC, will encumbrance skyrocket for you?

Sickone April 3 2008 11:37 AM EDT

Just a question, how exactly is tattoo NW taken into account ?
I'd hate to see a huge encumbrance from a heavily oversized tattoo that's only used at a fraction of its "power".

Cube April 3 2008 11:38 AM EDT

Anyone want a to give me a BoTh for my Morg?

AdminJonathan April 3 2008 11:39 AM EDT

> if you're cut down to 1/3 your ST and DX by someone's EC, will encumbrance skyrocket for you?

yes

> how exactly is tattoo NW taken into account ?

I should have said that to begin with: tattoo nw does not count towards encumbrance at all.

tasuki [UFC] April 3 2008 11:39 AM EDT

don't think tattoos will be a problem since they have a mtl.

"They shrink to fit nicely"

smallpau1 - Go Blues [Lower My Fees] April 3 2008 11:41 AM EDT

"This amount depends on your HP and ST"

"but it can fluctuate in battle based on GS or EC enchantments. (AS does not count as HP and does not affect it.)"

? lol

Tezmac April 3 2008 11:42 AM EDT

The HP granted by AS don't count toward your native HP, which let you have a higher encumbrance value. Not sure why that's confusing.

8DEOTWP April 3 2008 11:43 AM EDT

HP granted by AS is not taken into account with encumbrance, while your original trained HP will have an effect.

Sickone April 3 2008 11:44 AM EDT

Well, I can only assume it means AS is taken into account at the 25% "spells" rate, as opposed to the full 100% of HP "equivalent"... whereas the ST (which is also counted at 100%) does take into account actual ST after combat enchants (or maybe even during combat if you get hit by a ST-drain bow... or heck, maybe even as minions die, no idea).

forktoad April 3 2008 11:45 AM EDT

Does this mean that EO affects encumbrance while ED does not?

smallpau1 - Go Blues [Lower My Fees] April 3 2008 11:45 AM EDT

Oh, i missread that i guess, =/

I read it as HP does not count towards it, Sorry, >.<

miteke [Superheros] April 3 2008 11:49 AM EDT

Well I added 25% to my PR and lost half of my fight list. I hope something is broken and gets fixed,

Cube April 3 2008 11:51 AM EDT

Sweet got a Both with money from my disenchanted Morg

Lol

Lord Bob April 3 2008 11:51 AM EDT

Ok, maybe I'm not getting this.

When I fight Army Of One fully equipped, I get an Encumbrance of 0.54.

When I take my 38 mill NW Morgul Hammer off, I get an Encumbrance of 1.00.

So does equipping a melee weapon actually reduce Encumbrance? Or am I missing something glaringly obvious?

Also, why did my PR go way up? Did the weapon allowance also get changed?

Lumpy Koala April 3 2008 11:51 AM EDT

Godsend defeated King of Pain (Battle Royale) after 13 rounds of combat

hehe gotta love this :) I think all those USD spenders had just OVER encumbered themselves :)

QBBarzooMonkey April 3 2008 11:51 AM EDT

Woot! The 1H weapon change = instant sale on my BoTH auction, which I thought would never sell :P

QBJohnnywas April 3 2008 11:52 AM EDT

Lol @ Lumpy ;)

Little Anthony April 3 2008 11:57 AM EDT

I have a base decay. on that minion, i have 0.8 Encumberance. Is my decay going to be 80% less effective?

tasuki [UFC] April 3 2008 11:57 AM EDT

"1H weapons do not miss the first round of melee."

so, no matter what the scenario is like, 1h will get a 100% hit rate on during the first melee round?

Sickone April 3 2008 11:58 AM EDT

Well, the cool part, seems I get 0.00 Encumbrance even with all my gear on (well, just a pair of +73 DBs actually, since hooray, the tat NW doesn't matter, and I usuall fight with the RoE anyway, at least until I hit a MTL higher than my ToE's level, maybe longer).
Seems to be pretty A-ok in my book ;)

Cube April 3 2008 12:01 PM EDT

Barzoo, you have to thank him for the Disenchant too =) where do you think the cash came from?

AdminNightStrike April 3 2008 12:03 PM EDT

It would appear that Weapon allowance has either been changed or removed as part of this changelog.

lostling April 3 2008 12:04 PM EDT

so encumbrance doesnt decrease HP? :) that would mean walls are still a vaiable thing to invest in

Lord Bob April 3 2008 12:05 PM EDT

With a few tweaks and fixes this could turn out to be an awesome change.

Right now, some things don't seem right.

AdminJonathan April 3 2008 12:07 PM EDT

> so encumbrance doesnt decrease HP?

correct

> that would mean walls are still a vaiable thing to invest in

sure, although your AC may be less than before

AdminJonathan April 3 2008 12:08 PM EDT

from chat:

> if 1 of my minion has encumbrance, the rest of the team is not affected?

correct

Little Anthony April 3 2008 12:09 PM EDT

FTW defeated Koyaanisqatsi (Battle Royale) after 24 rounds of combat

Thank you jon

miteke [Superheros] April 3 2008 12:09 PM EDT

I'm going to be forging until this thing works itself out. Right now my character has become unplayable. Wall and tank gear is danged expensive. Unless changed this will mean the death of any strategy that requires survival for more than 6 rounds.

Warning to clannies: Tank Killer is not in a clan until this blows over.

What a crappy change. I lobby to remove all NW restrictions and just pump PR based on affects and instead it goes the other way. Once again high priced items are being penalized far beyond their affect.

Jon, you blew it this time.

AdminJonathan April 3 2008 12:11 PM EDT

> What a crappy change. I lobby to remove all NW restrictions and just pump PR based on affects and instead it goes the other way.

the first time a change doesn't go the way you wanted is always tough.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] April 3 2008 12:13 PM EDT

thanks jon! : )

Tezmac April 3 2008 12:16 PM EDT

Any chance of the opponents encumbrance being added to the battle log somehow?

lostling April 3 2008 12:18 PM EDT

jon... i think the ratios have to be relooked... i think tanks are getting errm over nerfed

Lord Bob April 3 2008 12:27 PM EDT

I agree with Lostling, but I think the biggest problem right now is in the massive PR increase. I think if Jon fixed that things would be close to where they need to be.

AdminJonathan April 3 2008 12:29 PM EDT

> I think the biggest problem right now is in the massive PR increase

that will solve itself as people dis-encumber

Cube April 3 2008 12:30 PM EDT

Brand new 1 Handed Weapon

In round 2 (1st melee) versus lostling

Vaan's blow was dodged by Lucifer

Yukk April 3 2008 12:31 PM EDT

The encumbrance on leather equipment may be a little over the top.

A lone pair of +10 leather boots for example would encumber a 10k MPR character.

Relic April 3 2008 12:33 PM EDT

I am super confused how this works Jonathan.
My tank minion Random has the below numbers.
Encumbered at: 82,071,554

Unequip my 75 mil NW MH
Encumbered at: 82,071,554

Unequip my 58 mil NW MSB
Encumbered at: 82,071,554

Unequip both MH and MSB
Encumbered at: 46,349,051

Can you tell me why unequipping two huge items is not changing my Encumbered number?

Also, I no longer am able to hit anyone in ranged or melee at all. Was this the desired change? Also my PR raised almost 1 mil and I lost my complete fightlist.

lostling April 3 2008 12:33 PM EDT

"1H weapons do not miss the first round of melee."

means that 1h weapons does not lose a round to switching from bow /sling/xbow to 1h weapons

Phoenix [The Forgehood] April 3 2008 12:36 PM EDT

just as clarification, what would an encumbrance of 3.8 mil mean?

Yukk April 3 2008 12:44 PM EDT

Meteor Phoenix, that would mean that when using over 3.8M NW of equipment, that minion would be encumbered and suffer a penalty to attacks and whatever else Jon listed.

lostling April 3 2008 12:45 PM EDT

jon... could we get 1 Encumbrance number for the WHOLE team? the way it is... its really hard to distribute your NW...

Lord Bob April 3 2008 12:55 PM EDT

"With a few tweaks and fixes this could turn out to be an awesome change. Right now, some things don't seem right."

I take back everything I said earlier. What I thought was "not right" just turned out to be a second tank nerf. Taken together with the allowance nerf, this is a terrible change, an absolute catastrophe for my team, and along with the auto-scroll feature earlier this month, is an absolute game breaker for me. Unless things get tweaked back to a level where they are at least tolerable, I doubt I'll stick around much longer.

Oh, and even though I STILL MISS vs. mid-large Evasions, now I don't even have the ability to upgrade the accuracy on my weapons anymore.

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] April 3 2008 12:59 PM EDT

Will an enforcers x bow increase encumbrance during a battle?

Dark Dreky April 3 2008 1:00 PM EDT

I'm not much for politics or flaming threads, especially when it's Jonathan's changes to the game. For those of you complaining, this is a change that was necessary for sometime.

I LOVE THE CHANGE! While I think it may take some fine tuning, this is a HUGE step in the right direction.

/me stands and applauds.

Yukk April 3 2008 1:00 PM EDT

Lord Bob, I think the aim of this is to have archers who want to use big weapons have to train heaps of HP/ST to manage those weapons. Either that or they have to dance around nekkid and shoot arrows.
I think this is an awesome left-field approach to the USD/EV problem. It may just require some tweaking.
I have a couple of Mage farm characters that are .99 encumbered now. Any single piece of their leather gear alone would make them non-tenable and they have the whole set, so while this doesn't hurt my main team too much, I am affected.

Another thing this is, is a boost to EC. Now it not only nukes ST/DX, it also has the capability to nuke DD & physical attacks too as a side effect.

QBJohnnywas April 3 2008 1:01 PM EDT

Hmmm. I'm waiting to see, but I've just added people to my fightlist, dropped in PR and gained in rewards. So whatever has changed seems to be working for me!

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] April 3 2008 1:02 PM EDT

Unless you are training ST on your mage EC will not reduce DD, but yea it is a boost to EC versus tanks.

QBJohnnywas April 3 2008 1:02 PM EDT

Actually scratch that about PR; I've just gained a little. Gained rewards though... ?

Cube April 3 2008 1:05 PM EDT

Oh wow I can't believe I thought that it meant 1 handed weapons always hit, well there goes 3 Mil or so down the drain

Yukk April 3 2008 1:05 PM EDT

Are you sure Rubberduck ? What does Jon say ?
Does a mage with 1M HP and -1M ST have the same encumbrance allowance as one with 1M HP and 20 ST ?

Lord Bob April 3 2008 1:07 PM EDT

"this is a change that was necessary for sometime."

I agree that the Encumbrance thing is a -massive- step in the right direction. Don't get me wrong on that.

But coupled with a 50% drop in Weapon Allowance? This is an attack on tanks. A 20-25% drop I can see, even support. But 50%?

My challenge bonus has dropped considerably, and if I drop any NW, I start lo lose. I still win at an acceptable rate even with the Encumbrance, but my rewards are non-existant. If I nerf myself, I don't win at all. See where I'm stuck here?

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] April 3 2008 1:10 PM EDT

Yukk as far as I know the game treats negative ST/DX as 0 or 1. If not it is a huge boost to EC which will have to be corrected :)

Tezmac April 3 2008 1:11 PM EDT

"Does a mage with 1M HP and -1M ST have the same encumbrance allowance as one with 1M HP and 20 ST?"

Ooooh, interesting...

AdminJonathan April 3 2008 1:24 PM EDT

> Does a mage with 1M HP and -1M ST have the same encumbrance allowance as one with 1M HP and 20 ST

Yes. As always, negative ST is equivalent to 1 ST.

Brakke Bres [Ow man] April 3 2008 1:31 PM EDT

btw how do the penalties work? for each # of encumbrance 50% goes to skills and spells and 50% goes to HP ST DX?

AdminJonathan April 3 2008 1:38 PM EDT

If your encumbrance is nonzero, all the stats I mentioned are penalized by that amount.

So if you have 1000 ST and 20% encumbrance your effective ST is 800.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] April 3 2008 1:44 PM EDT

how does this work for familiars?

tasuki [UFC] April 3 2008 1:45 PM EDT

RoS seems to affect encumbrance since it increase our minions ED. Should that be the case?

Jamba in da Juice April 3 2008 1:47 PM EDT

maybe have everyone start over?

just a suggestion

AdminJonathan April 3 2008 1:50 PM EDT

> RoS seems to affect encumbrance since it increase our minions ED. Should that be the case?

yes

> how does this work for familiars?

familiars will never be directly encumbered, obviously

Colonel Custard [SeeD] April 3 2008 1:50 PM EDT

Ummm...

So I log on, and I look at my character and see this:
NW: 147,636,616
Encumbered at: 132,075,096

I think "no problem, I can strip down 15 mil NW." I unequip 5 pieces of armor, and end up with this:
NW: 124,504,197
Encumbered at: 107,292,434

And my PR still 500k higher than it was yesterday when I was fully equipped.

The items in particular that I unequipped were stat-boosting, so I assume that since my effective post-boost stat levels dropped, that's what dropped my Encumbrance allowance as well. Is this intended? Because that heavily shifts the way that armor NW and uppage needs to be taken into consideration when equipping, further than PR weight.

I feel sorry for nov, with his 47 mil gloves. They don't even boost stats, they just non-negate them. Then again, he doesn't have to equip any weapons.

AdminJonathan April 3 2008 1:51 PM EDT

> I assume that since my effective post-boost stat levels dropped, that's what dropped my Encumbrance allowance as well. Is this intended?

yes

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] April 3 2008 1:53 PM EDT

I think I'm safe, my Junction minion is severely encumbered (and will be more when my boots come back) but the penalties don't actually apply to anything he's training...

Brakke Bres [Ow man] April 3 2008 1:54 PM EDT

BTW how does junction and encumbrance work?
If you junction the effect of the armor doesn't that junction the encumbrance with it?
Or do familiars that are junction ed get no penalties at all?

Eurynome Bartleby [Bartleby's] April 3 2008 2:03 PM EDT

I read that one handed weapons cannot miss in the first round of melee. Does that mean, in the event of say, a quad hit, that my four hits will hit no matter the dex or Evasion of my enemy? Or is it only the first hit that has a guaranteed hit?

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] April 3 2008 2:03 PM EDT

no penalties listed in my fightlog...

AdminJonathan April 3 2008 2:04 PM EDT

> I read that one handed weapons cannot miss in the first round of melee

no, they don't miss the first round entirely, but they can still miss _in_ the first round.

AdminJonathan April 3 2008 2:05 PM EDT

> BTW how does junction and encumbrance work?

encumbrance is based on NW. familiars have no nw and hence cannot be encumbered.

Eurynome Bartleby [Bartleby's] April 3 2008 2:12 PM EDT

Ah, I get it, thanks for the answer.

miteke [Superheros] April 3 2008 2:31 PM EDT

Me: What a crappy change. I lobby to remove all NW restrictions and just pump PR based on affects and instead it goes the other way.

Jon: the first time a change doesn't go the way you wanted is always tough.

Every change has not gone my way for well over a year. I have not complained about the changes, only that they affected me badly. I may have whined, but I did not say the change was bad. At worst I may have argued if I thought there was a better way. Most of the changes have been good, or at least neutral.

This one is BAD. Not because it hurts my character but because it is causes the following affects:

1) High priced gear is unusable. Some gear gets REALLY expensive when you pump it up, like a Corn. With this rule you will not be able to use a high end corn. You have just destroyed the value of every high end item out there.
2) It makes low end characters unable to use high end equipment. I sincerely believe that any character should be able to benefit from a high end item without being penalized.
3) It nukes strategies relying on expensive equipment, particularly walls. Walls are an integral part of bloodlust tanks and CoC mages since they HAVE to survive long in order to do well. But they cost a heck of a lot of NW and have low stats other than HP.
4) It is not balanced in affect vs. cost. Going from a +12 corn to a +13 corn has a linear affect increase but a geometric (or is it logrithmic) cost increase. The cost for these items should be based on the +, such as the PR weight which was a good idea, not the NW. It offends my sensibilities.



Godpanda April 3 2008 2:35 PM EDT

<TheHatchetman> maybe no encumberence in 10/20?

A very good idea, Jon.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] April 3 2008 2:36 PM EDT

I'm using +11 corns... they seem to be working fine

the concept seems solid to me, as much as I hate to see items become balanced... it NEEDS to happen

TheHatchetman April 3 2008 2:38 PM EDT

Perhaps we could have no encumberence in the 10/20 refresh. This would allow newer players and those starting over to get started. I also feel that encumberence on top of all the other game dynamics is a lot to digest within the first couple days. This will at least give them the same chance they had at early success before, and some extra time to learn the extra material :P Idk, just a thought

AdminJonathan April 3 2008 2:41 PM EDT

> This would allow newer players and those starting over to get started

It's a non-issue for new players. I strongly doubt anyone has an encumbrance over 0.2 without using USD.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] April 3 2008 2:44 PM EDT

This is the most interesting change I have ever seen here.

I have a lot of questions regarding it though.

Since GS affects encumbrance, does haste affect it as well, just at 25% efficiency?

Do changes made to stats mid-fight affect encumbrance as well? Like AoL increasing str by a certain %, or an exbow or axbow draining str or dex.

QBRanger April 3 2008 2:52 PM EDT

Ranged Hits / Shots / Avg Damage 0 / 6 / 0

Vs FTW on my tank who is UNENCUMBERED.

Quite the evasion BUFF, not nerf.

Yea NW!!!!

Yukk April 3 2008 2:57 PM EDT

Jonathan,
Check this character:
Reda Ruu a simple mage with leather gear. Encumbrance=.99.
Any single item on that character would totally nuke it and yet they were all bought from the shop for very reasonable prices.

miteke [Superheros] April 3 2008 2:58 PM EDT

Add to the reasons:
5) Characters belonging to people that are not active at the moment will be fodder. Their PR will soar and their scores will plummet and it is quite possible they will lose their character and all their equipment.
6) Some equipment can no longer be used by characters until they reach a certain MPR such as the AoI. Even a pair of lousy +8 leather boots will toast a new character.
7) Characters will make far more cash than they can spend on their minions. What will that do to the economy?

doom and gloom!

Last Gasp April 3 2008 3:00 PM EDT

At my level it's a non issue. I lost one from my fight list and gained one of equal or lesser value.

Last Gasp April 3 2008 3:02 PM EDT

I'm dying to see what Freed has to say.... <chortle>

Soxjr April 3 2008 4:43 PM EDT

Ok. Jon I don't know if this is the right place to put this, but I think the evasion ranged bonus went from normal to 3x what it used to be instead of 1/3. I am now not hitting people I used to hit in ranged and their evasion is the same and my encumberance is 0. Not sure if anyone else has posted this and if so I'm sorry, but if not I think something might be wrong.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 3 2008 4:48 PM EDT

OK, I'm being thick. ;)

After a fight (with no EC) my post fight encumbrance for my two minions shows as 0.86 and 0.66.

Am I encuumbred and taking penalties? Or am I under by encumbrance limit?

Ah... I see.

My non changeable AoI is 1.4 Mill NW, and my characters Encumberance is 600K.

Hmmm... That makes some items (like the AoI) totally unusable for smaller characters. Kinda sucky really.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 3 2008 4:52 PM EDT

Unless you're a Tank.

nd a single minion Tank at that. ;)

Hmmm... Maybe this is a nice single minion boost, over multi minion teams.

Must think and tinker with this some more! ;)

Lord Bob April 3 2008 4:56 PM EDT

Yeah, I'm not hitting anyone I wasn't before the change even with the Evasion "nerf." And considering I have NO WAY to increase my PTH without incurring two distinct penalties, I fail to see how this was an effective fix to the overpowered Evasion problem.

If it's merely a bug, then so be it. I'll wait to see how it plays out.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 3 2008 5:04 PM EDT

Jon, can Encumbrance be changed to reflect all stats equally, or Item PR wieghts changed?

At the moment, non Tanks are hit twice.

First by a low encumbrance score for not training STR (and sometimes not training natural HP). And secondly from Enchanter/Mage items having a far higher PR weight (sometimes 5 times more) than thier Tank counterparts.

If encummbrance is generally expected to be lower for Enchanters/Mages, I don't think it's also fair to charge them the most PR weight towards it from thier items...

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] April 3 2008 5:23 PM EDT

GL mages don't need generally use weapons so that is a large advantage in the nw stakes, also DX doesn't count towards encumbrance allowance, DD does.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 3 2008 5:30 PM EDT

Amulets, NS/AG and EB/DB all do. On multi minion teams, it's hurts with the new Encumbrance, and I'm only using a two minion RBF team!

While Dex doesn't count, DD only counts for 25%, so Mages will never have as high an Encumbrance as Tanks, while having items that add up to 5 time more...

But I suppose then this is fuel for the no NW Mage arguement.

Besides, the STR/DEX/PTH from a ToA doesn't add to Encumbrance. I wonder if the STR it grants is like GS, and increases your Encumbrance?

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] April 3 2008 5:36 PM EDT

ToA granted ST does increase nw allowed before encumbrance. I didn't think PR weight had anything to do with it, thought it was done on plain nw.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] April 3 2008 5:37 PM EDT

Yes, ToA adds to encumbrance, but so do EB and AG and CoI. Lots of mage items add to your encumbrance so that you can equip more.

AdminJonathan April 3 2008 5:42 PM EDT

> First by a low encumbrance score for not training STR (and sometimes not training natural HP).

that's the idea. mages don't need weapons so they get encumbered more easily. remember, there is no "weapon allowance" for encumbrance.

> And secondly from Enchanter/Mage items having a far higher PR weight (sometimes 5 times more) than thier Tank counterparts.

nope, there is no pr weight in encumbrance. straight nw.

Duke April 3 2008 5:43 PM EDT

There seem to be a bug with evasion right now i dodge every single attack again my eva minion and i am taking to some ppl that they can make a single hit vs evasion minion.Jonanthan can you check if you have not bost evasion by 66%.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 3 2008 5:43 PM EDT

OK, here is an example of wht I'm trying to explain.

Tulka's Guantlets have a 0.15 PR weight, and add 1% STR per plus. Each plus gives 1% ( I assume from the OP that STR is a 100% conversion to Encumbrance) increase to your Encumbrance.

Alatar's Gloves have a 0.5 PR weight and add 1% DD per plus. Each plus gives a 0.25% increase to your Encumbrance.

Off the top of my head I don't know what the upgrade costs for both are, but the AG increases your NW by 3.33 times *more* than the TG does, while giving you 1/4 of the Encumbrance increase...

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 3 2008 5:44 PM EDT

"nope, there is no pr weight in encumbrance. straight nw."

Sweet! Ignore my post above everyone. ;)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 3 2008 5:47 PM EDT

Last point of contention about this (which I'm actualy starting to love as the multi minion 'nerf') are items like the AoI (Is this the only fixed non changeable item?)

You can't dis it down to a useable size, it's totally locked out from being useful for your team, until you get large enough to not be encumbered by it;s 1.4 Mil NW.

Mikel April 3 2008 6:00 PM EDT

Joy, now i can't even hit some of these evasion minions.
Thanks

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] April 3 2008 6:01 PM EDT

The consensus in carnage seems to be that the evasion bonus has been increased not decreased.

Mikel April 3 2008 6:12 PM EDT

21-30 rounds of whiffing nice.

Anyone want to buy an elb?

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] April 3 2008 6:13 PM EDT

the blacksmith does...

Mikel April 3 2008 6:16 PM EDT

Mageblender here we come :)

My PR is insane and I can't even hit the top Evasion guys, and I have over 5 mil Dex.
You know, at least if I could hit them, I would say maybe it's worth it.

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] April 3 2008 6:20 PM EDT

doubt you have over 5M DX after encumbrance, time to choose between the boots, bow and MH... Evasion does seem to be bust though so we await further developments. Is your encumbrance 1?

Mikel April 3 2008 6:22 PM EDT

No the highest I have seen my Encumbrance is .5, most of the time it's .26 or less.

Mikel April 3 2008 6:23 PM EDT

and Dx straight from the Battle Logs:

5,059,879

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] April 3 2008 6:25 PM EDT

Wow only .26 sans EC. Maybe it won't be mage blender after all.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] April 3 2008 6:25 PM EDT

if you are getting a .26 encumbrance then that dex is actually quite a lot less than 5 mil. Its more like 3.7 mil.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] April 3 2008 6:25 PM EDT

So evasion takes a penalty if the minion is encumbered... and it's a skill... are we 100% sure other skills don't get the same treatment?

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] April 3 2008 6:26 PM EDT

The DX etc penalties don't seem to show in the battle logs, maybe they are not even being applied.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 3 2008 6:29 PM EDT

Actually, if you're getting a 0.26 Encumbrance on that Dex, it's 'real' amount is 1,315,569 isn't it?

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] April 3 2008 6:31 PM EDT

higher is worse GL...

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 3 2008 6:45 PM EDT

Ah lol! Maybe I'll get the hang of this change soon. ;)

Brakke Bres [Ow man] April 3 2008 7:03 PM EDT

All that nw nerfed overnight, I feel sorry for those tanks now :(

Anyway to lift the encumbrance for tanks? Maybe weigh the factor ST a bit more? like 33% more then now?

Mikel April 3 2008 7:28 PM EDT

vs the only EC team (the Lega) I have a .26, I took off the MH, and have a 0.00 encumbrance.

lostling April 3 2008 7:36 PM EDT

any possibility that you would change encumbrance to 1 number for the whole team instead of 4 numbers for each?

three4thsforsaken April 3 2008 7:43 PM EDT

Do exbows affect Encumbrance?

I'd like that :)

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] April 3 2008 7:45 PM EDT

negative str doesn't seem too... that answers some of your question

three4thsforsaken April 3 2008 7:48 PM EDT

It's more like, if I can I reduce the Encumbrance of tanks mid battle, as I drain str?

I mean GS works on Encumbrance...

lostling April 3 2008 8:26 PM EDT

LOL you mean everyone gets weaker as the battle progresses? (encrumbrance is also based on the amount of HP you have)

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] April 3 2008 8:27 PM EDT

wow that's an incredible point lostling...

lostling April 3 2008 8:32 PM EDT

1 more point to bring up...
is DM buffed now? considering that AS(HP) and GS(Str)

tasuki [UFC] April 3 2008 8:33 PM EDT

"(AS does not count as HP and does not affect it.)"

but the xp you invested in AS does count.

lostling April 3 2008 8:35 PM EDT

i thought that xp invested will be reduce if you reduced the effect... either way familiar builds now suck =x

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] April 3 2008 8:38 PM EDT

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actually familiars are the only mages safe from this...

lostling April 3 2008 8:41 PM EDT

well what about familiar + AS enchanters +GA + AMF?

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] April 3 2008 8:45 PM EDT

I can verify that DM doesn't effect it...

lostling April 3 2008 8:46 PM EDT

since it is said that DM doesnt affect AS... due to HP not affecting but does DM affect GS?

tasuki [UFC] April 3 2008 8:51 PM EDT

"since it is said that DM doesnt affect AS... due to HP not affecting but does DM affect GS?"

Are you still talking about GS on familiars? If so, I don't see any difference than before this change.

If you are talking about DM on GS in general, then yeah, it ill hurt more than before since losing the GS gained str will be gone..

tasuki [UFC] April 3 2008 8:52 PM EDT

which could increase the encumbrance penalty*.

lostling April 3 2008 8:52 PM EDT

actually in general :)

tasuki [UFC] April 3 2008 8:54 PM EDT

speaking of GS, how will this be calculated?

will the xp spent on GS spell be added in addition to the increase STR that it provides to encumbrance calculations?

smallpau1 - Go Blues [Lower My Fees] April 3 2008 9:08 PM EDT

So why does GS affect it but AS doesnt? Or am i missing something? AS isn't real HP, but GS is real STR?

lostling April 3 2008 9:17 PM EDT

same question as me lol

AdminNightStrike April 3 2008 9:54 PM EDT

Now that this has settled in for a day, I think it's time to ask the question only a very few people care about......

What about UC?

Obviously UC gets hit extremely hard because a UC minion cannot train ST very much at all. How is a UC minion supposed to adapt to this change? I know UC can tend to become the forgotten stepchild that doesn't really fit in (remember when weapon 'x' changed?) So, I'm open to suggestions on how to address it (other than the obvious "Give up on UC already"... I'm trying to go down with the ship :) :) )

AdminNightStrike April 3 2008 10:04 PM EDT

Suggestion -- factor out NW due to ammo.

Reasoning -- It is customary for people to have large ammo stacks for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is the fact that ammo is used on defence. For instance, I have several hundred thousand wrapped up in ammo, and unequipping it reduces my encumbrance. However, ranged weapons are useless without ammo.

Now, of course, this means you could have giant upgraded ammo with no encumbrance. Fair enough. Only count a single piece of ammo's NW -- 1 bolt, arrow, or bomb omb.

Xenko April 3 2008 10:07 PM EDT

"Obviously UC gets hit extremely hard"

UC don't need a melee weapon, which saves encumbrance room. They also have a large investment in UC skill, which adds some encumbrance room as well. UC might even have an advantage over other tanks in that they can pump up their "weapon" without worrying about encumbrance or weapon allowance.

So I don't think UC is hit as hard as you think.

AdminNightStrike April 3 2008 10:10 PM EDT

UC is useless without a big ranged weapon. I imagine that I can reduce my encumbrance if I train a bunch to account for the weapon. I honestly never considered my Exbow all that big (100m?)

Maybe UC could get a by in the encumbrance calculation (ie, not be 25% of what it could be if it was ST). Maybe split the difference? A normal tank would take that extra XP and put it into HP/ST/DX/Skill. So maybe allocate it based on that? Dunno, just ideas.

AdminJonathan April 3 2008 10:12 PM EDT

new players now start with "encumbered at" 100000

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] April 3 2008 10:23 PM EDT

DD is coming in at 25% NS... if that doesn't get a boost neither should UC...

lostling April 3 2008 10:29 PM EDT

i think NS is saying that UC requires a range weapon... but yep... UC has always needed a boost

three4thsforsaken April 3 2008 11:42 PM EDT

Jon, how about the Exbow? Can Encumbrance change mid battle?

AdminJonathan April 3 2008 11:49 PM EDT

> Can Encumbrance change mid battle?

no, that would be a little too harsh.

Relic April 4 2008 12:09 AM EDT

"encumbrance is based on NW. familiars have no nw and hence cannot be encumbered."

Via junction one can add a tremendous amount of effective NW and stat boost, so how do junctioned familiars have no NW again?

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] April 4 2008 12:28 AM EDT

quit being catty Glory...

Familiars are unable to train skills and are penalized in an endless heap of ways. The minions holding the familiars are already capable of being encumbered (and because of the likelyhood of them training HP are highly likely to be) and to cripple familiars (who have no ability to train anymore HP than they already do) by allowing encumbrance would be the death knell.

Cube April 4 2008 2:14 AM EDT

This was a huge boost to UC already..

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] April 4 2008 2:27 AM EDT

This is just going to end up fodder but I'm posting it anyway.

remove the 40 mil for the last two points of my (stupidly) large NSC which are now a boat anchor for most mages and I'm still at 120 mil. with a bit above a mil HP and 4.6 mil DD my familiar would be crippled and unable to use dbs. I'd be the exact same pincushion I was yesterday.

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AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] April 4 2008 2:31 AM EDT

Luckily for you the familiar is unaffected, but your EC and prot take a hit from the encumbrance.

Mikel April 4 2008 2:32 AM EDT

So does the Junction.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] April 4 2008 2:35 AM EDT

actually never mind about that. Unless you are relying on the ac of that minion (not the familiar) go ahead and encumber him 1.00. Nothing will happen.

"you take a linear penalty to evasion, DX, ST, AC, and DD damage"

it has no affect to enchantments and skills other than evasion

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] April 4 2008 2:40 AM EDT

My point was that familiars being subject to enc would completely destroy them... they already can't train HP and eva... so without high NW db they are just a sitting duck.

The Junction minion is not taking any penalty at this point.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] April 4 2008 2:43 AM EDT

Oh, i agree with you on that point completely. Familiars are tats and they shouldn't be subjected to the encumbrance, none of the other tats are.

lostling April 4 2008 2:45 AM EDT

LOL imagine TOA being subjected to encrum lol lol lol lol... yes i hate spell check

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] April 4 2008 3:11 AM EDT

(base decay trained on Junction minion with .86 encumbrance score)
Gordon Gano's Decay hit Frustration for no damage
(this is against a no AMF team... talk about penalties)

Phrede April 4 2008 8:22 AM EDT

Great change - jon - much better than the alternatives I was expecting. I can now fund my NCB by reducing some of my gear

AdminNightStrike April 4 2008 10:23 AM EDT

I'm guessing that it's a negative sum gain (as opposed to a highly reduced yet positive sum gain) if you are over your encumbrance and you boost gear to try to offset the encumbrance but "overpowering" it with even more NW. This is a fair assumption, right? Once you are over your encumbrance, there's no way to increase your stats (even marginally) with more NW?

forktoad April 4 2008 11:14 AM EDT

Cehsep Tentyb Zadba Des EXP 4,647 4,647 4,653 Encumbrance 0.00 0.04 0.00 HP 77,825 224,328 20 ST -449,886 -301,181 -449,886 DX -449,886 -304,751 -449,886 AC 0 40 0 Damage Inflicted 0 / 274,192 207 21,266 Ammo remaining 670 4,186 For an encumbrance of 0.04 my physical damage drops to 0.001 of average value. Cehsep Tentyb Zadba Des EXP 4,819 4,819 4,825 Encumbrance 0.00 0.00 0.00 HP 265,421 28,318 -13,623 ST 20 136,067 20 DX 20 132,347 20 AC 0 41 0 Damage Inflicted 0 / 530,358 1,019,869 / 117,629 0 / 12 Ammo remaining 670 4,172 Without encumbrance it goes as high as 5 times the actual value. Somewhat unfair, isn't it?

forktoad April 4 2008 11:14 AM EDT

Sorry I am not really good with HTML

QBRanger April 5 2008 12:51 AM EDT

I take it then dexterity is the only thing that does not help ENC values?

Kong Ming April 5 2008 3:29 AM EDT

I wonder why dexterity is not counted towards the allowance... Maybe it should, that way, tanks will be more viable.

lostling April 5 2008 3:35 AM EDT

and ec will be so much more powerful

AdminJonathan April 5 2008 6:45 AM EDT

> I wonder why dexterity is not counted towards the allowance

primarily because then I would weight DX and ST both at 0.5 instead of ST at 1, and EC would be that much more powerful.

AdminNightStrike April 5 2008 9:11 AM EDT

"I take it then dexterity is the only thing that does not help ENC values? "

For some reason, I forgot about enchantments, which are indeed spells. The way I read this, enchanters should have no penalties due to high ENC. Said another way, ENC harms nothing that an enchanter uses.

That can be useful.

Kong Ming April 5 2008 10:09 AM EDT

Well, forgotten about EC... Guess that is the fair for now...

QBRanger April 5 2008 10:16 AM EDT

Yes,
EC is quite powerful now.

For instance my wall has a 415 AC. His ENC is 0.00.

When I fight The Lega with its 3.4M EC, it nerfs my wall strength and makes my ENC about .25. Therefore my AC vs him is only 316.

Nice boost to EC.

Nice changes overall.

QBRanger April 5 2008 10:18 AM EDT

However, if my wall just had all HP instead of HP/STR, EC would not do much.

But imagine a tank who is barely at the ENC 0.00 level.

Some nice sized EC can nerf his str/dex/AC all in 1 swoop.

Kong Ming April 5 2008 10:29 AM EDT

So the new deadly combination against tanks will be evasion plus EC... Nice!

AdminNightStrike April 5 2008 10:45 AM EDT

Having EC reduce AC is really kind of...... weird?

Kong Ming April 5 2008 10:47 AM EDT

Maybe the effect of EC shouldn't affect the encumbrance. Does dispel magic have the same effect when it dispels ED?

AdminNightStrike April 5 2008 10:49 AM EDT

Same question with AMF vs DD. Since AMF doesn't reduce DD, but merely blocks it and reflects it, I would guess that AMF does NOT affect ENC.

AdminJonathan April 5 2008 11:36 AM EDT

> I would guess that AMF does NOT affect ENC.

right

TheHatchetman April 5 2008 11:42 AM EDT

"However, if my wall just had all HP instead of HP/STR, EC would not do much.

But imagine a tank who is barely at the ENC 0.00 level.

Some nice sized EC can nerf his str/dex/AC all in 1 swoop."


This was my concern, and ya left out HP... EC lowers ST and DX, then HP, more ST, more DX, and AC...

AdminNightStrike April 5 2008 12:52 PM EDT

So EC just became the most powerful spell by a longshot. First you kill the ST, then you destroy the character with ENC.

QBRanger April 5 2008 12:56 PM EDT

No, not the most powerful.

But certainly much more useful then before.

Before you had 2 main features of EC:

1) Nerf the dex and hope for less dex based hits.
2) Nerf the str and they do no damage.

We all knew that with a minimal amount of strength, any hit will do a lot of damage.

Now, EC is quite a valuable spell. Since even if you do not nerf their entire strength, you can lower their AC/evasion/str and dex by lowering their ENC.

Quite a nice boost to EC, but not uberpowerful.

QBRanger April 5 2008 1:02 PM EDT

So,

Since evasion is subject to ENC load, is the minus PTH from DB's subject to the same reduction?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] April 5 2008 1:02 PM EDT

i would say that the recent changes put it on par with dm as one of the most powerful spells in the game. dm got its own tat to counter it, i wonder if we will see a new supporter tat for ec as well.

AdminJonathan April 5 2008 1:37 PM EDT

> i wonder if we will see a new supporter tat for ec as well.

no.

Adminedyit April 5 2008 3:07 PM EDT

already have that tat its the ToA

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] April 5 2008 3:48 PM EDT

excellent point!

QBRanger April 5 2008 4:01 PM EDT

I can vouch for that.

When I was 2 large EC's, Freed with his TOA overwhelmed my ability to nerf his strength.

He could have done even more if he used a HoE and TG if he wanted.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] April 5 2008 4:08 PM EDT

<Ranger> EC is not a very good spell
<Ranger> sry NOW a very good...
<BluBBen> it really is
<Lamuness> ;p @ Ranger
<BluBBen> I wold acctualy go as far as saying it's a little overpowered.
<JS> little.
<Ranger> little? 8M str in 1 hit for 1 damag?
<JS> He's talking about EC
<Lamuness> yes, it's fine.
<BluBBen> talking EC
<novice> considering ranger was able to cut his trained level in half I think that's fair
<BluBBen> xbow is pretty much overpowered, but we would only need to make the damage done fit into the ST draning equation and all would be solved
<novice> I honestly don't think EC should effect enc
<Lamuness> not overpowered at all.
<JS> neither do I
<TheHatchetman> nor do I
<BluBBen> not me either

QBRanger April 5 2008 4:11 PM EDT

Very true, EC is quite nice indeed.

However, anyone can train it, without regard to USD or CB2.

I like it so much I have a high level trained one. Anyone can, appropriate to their MPR of course.

three4thsforsaken April 5 2008 4:15 PM EDT

I think it should reduce encumbrance, because of the boostable nature of str

BluBBen April 5 2008 4:18 PM EDT

We need to see to the game balance and not to what is realistic.

The Pope [Serenity In Chaos] April 6 2008 3:16 PM EDT

with encumbrance available i think you would be able to fairly add double weapons.. now... so i could equip two one handed weapons... and since you have encumbrance it could make the NW of each weapon need to be lower but allow for double hits this way... just my 2 cents... but i have brought it up in CB1 and was told no never will happen, but still though i would bring it up...

TheHatchetman April 6 2008 3:18 PM EDT

VB + BoTh = OP... Sorry Pope
This thread is closed to new posts. However, you are welcome to reference it from a new thread; link this with the html <a href="/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002Ohz">Encumbrance and Evasion</a>