Tanks need a little love (in General)

Relic April 3 2008 11:40 PM EDT

With all the recent crushing blows tanks have been dealt. Is it possible to make Archery only cost 1/4 instead of 1/3 ST? The damage is now almost pitiful and after having removed 75 mil NW from my bow and morg, but the same exp needed to do way less damage seems a bit much.

I mean come on, SoD users don't even have to train a skill at all for massive ranged damage.

chuck1234 April 3 2008 11:42 PM EDT

Glory, Evasion is pretty much dead now; high NW [severely encumbranced] DBs are the only way to avoid damage. Tanks are back in form, I'll say. Its TankBlender all over again.

Relic April 3 2008 11:43 PM EDT

Tell that to my fightlist that shrunk a ton after this change and my weapons which hit for almost nothing now.

three4thsforsaken April 3 2008 11:44 PM EDT

how is evasion dead?

chuck1234 April 3 2008 11:45 PM EDT

The new equation for Evasion doesn't prevent ranged hits as in the past, makes it a worthless entity, might as well untrain it.

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] April 3 2008 11:49 PM EDT

Evasion still works fine... you just need alot more than before to get the full effect as before...

Relic April 3 2008 11:54 PM EDT

Evasion wasn't nerfed as much as people think, most of the NW of large weapons is in the +. A lot of + will have to be removed so that the minion can fight effectively again. Thus evasion doesn't have to compete so much with massive + on weapons.

Windwalker April 4 2008 12:47 AM EDT

Seems I have been caught squarely in Jon's sights in every one of the most recent changes. Are we done with these marvelous changes? Your killin' me boss man ;)

Soxjr April 4 2008 12:47 AM EDT

you guys are talking about the ranged bonus of evasion. The effect of evasion is the same.. the ranged bonus you were getting has been reduced. So lets discuss it properly if we are going to discuss it. So you still have the same (#) in your bubble. Just you get less effect in all ranged rounds. Which is a big hit, but doesn't kill it, just makes it so people can do stuff now.

three4thsforsaken April 4 2008 1:23 AM EDT

I don't know if Tanks need more love as much as Mages need a little less love... they might need to be a nerf... just a thought

lostling April 4 2008 1:33 AM EDT

tanks dont need love :) im pretty sure most single tanks are doing fine right now... the only concern i have is that multiminion tanks will find it hard to fit anything under encrumbrance... as i have said a few times people... let all the minions encrumbrance add up to just 1 number so that the 4minion teams can spread their NW as they like

three4thsforsaken April 4 2008 1:39 AM EDT

I'm not sure that's what Jon wants, it kind of eliminates the point of preventing walls and huge weapons.

Cube April 4 2008 1:40 AM EDT

More like walls need a little love =/
Well abandoned my wall for now

lostling April 4 2008 1:43 AM EDT

for huge weapons you have the halfed WA... but if your still concerned... try fighting a team with only a large weapon lol and tell me how fearsome they are

three4thsforsaken April 4 2008 1:52 AM EDT

with combined encumbrance you can hire a minion and stick 350 AC on it, put a PL batter behind him, and watch him never die even with his tiny exp, I don't like that.

I don't like how people will train more HP in their wall to increase what their mage can wear. The idea makes things much too simple for my taste, and contrary to its purpose.

lostling April 4 2008 1:56 AM EDT

personally it doesnt really affect me... but im just pointing out the problem faced by multi tank teams... even with 100%/4 exp into hp it is quite hard to put on your AC... considering exp gain is linear and armor NW is not linear = wall death

three4thsforsaken April 4 2008 2:01 AM EDT

pretty much. Walls are going to be hard to maintain now, but for good reason.

Tank damage just got downed indirectly, they can't deal with huge walls now. Remember Freeds wall? That shouldn't happen in this game IMO. The whole community was scared by that, and Jon, and for good reason too.

As for weapons, yes it is going to be hard to maintain but it is a similar dilution concept to mages. More minions, less damage overall. Of course there is always ToA, which is a VERY good idea for tanks now.

Cube April 4 2008 2:04 AM EDT

ToA Strength and Dex doesn't help your encumberance at all, maybe versus EC, but I'm not sure.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] April 4 2008 2:07 AM EDT

ToA does increase encumbrance by a lot. basically it increases encumbrance by nw of tat x15. RoS increases encumbrance as well, though not near as much.

Cube April 4 2008 2:12 AM EDT

Oh huh odd didn't seem to do it earlier today, ahh well now it's working

Tyriel [123456789] April 4 2008 2:15 AM EDT

There's a reason Jon implemented Encumbrance and Disenchanting at the same time.

Nobody says you absolutely have to have a wall, or even a full one. NW per point goes up as you upgrade, so the first points (and base AC) will be extremely cheap. With just 1m in each item (a mere 7m total), you can have 290 AC, which equates to a 60.9% damage reduction. 204 of that AC is on the +, which means that you also have a 42.84% reduction of magic damage. If you ask me, that's a pretty nice 7m investment.

Add in other forms of damage reduction (naming, for free NW!) and you have a fairly cheap wall that will last you for several rounds (or possibly the whole battle if you have a PL sink).

As for the whole 'tanks need love' thing, I think it might be a bit too early to really say anything about it.

And to all of the tanks complaining: Can you remove things from your tank that you don't need? Have you tried taking off a few points from your equipment? Lowering the X on your weapon? Perhaps even lowering the + by a few points? Tried re-inking your tat? Losing people off of your fightlist isn't the end of the world. Neither is having to change.

Mikel April 4 2008 2:36 AM EDT

NW: 54,393,135
Encumbered at: 134,983,350
on my Wall that has a 248 AC, and +49 Mage Shield.

But I do have almost 5 mil HP on that wall.
So walls don't seem to be hit too bad.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] April 4 2008 2:56 AM EDT

You can have your "love"...


I just want a bugfix.

QBJohnnywas April 4 2008 3:10 AM EDT

ToA adds NO encumbrance.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] April 4 2008 3:13 AM EDT

We need to standardize terms here.

Are you saying that adding a ToA doesn't raise the level of allowable networth by upping STR? or saying that the ToA itself (like all tats) are not counted in the NW total for the minion?

QBJohnnywas April 4 2008 3:24 AM EDT

It raises the level I get encumbered at; so with a ToA I can carry more NW. So really, unless you have huge weapons, it has made absolutely no difference to my char this change.

So - despite the tanks moaning - this change is a ToA Boost! That's what I mean. :)

QBJohnnywas April 4 2008 3:26 AM EDT

But yeah, it's NW isn't counted is what I mean. Sorry. Should be clearer.

lostling April 4 2008 3:27 AM EDT

remember that encrum is not only for weapons... it includes armor lol

QBJohnnywas April 4 2008 3:28 AM EDT

So a tank should now wear a ToA; it helps...

QBJohnnywas April 4 2008 3:31 AM EDT

And these changes, primarily the evasion one most likely, haven't stopped Ranger and Mikel being Number 1 and Number 2 in the standings either. Tanks need some love...lol.....

Herbstwind [The Knighthood] April 4 2008 6:51 AM EDT

at least, this change gave the BoM more use - adding ST and AC while lowering encumberance .)

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] April 4 2008 7:23 AM EDT

It may be problematic for some multi minion tank teams but making the encumbrance work on the whole team as one would make the whole change rather pointless.

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] April 4 2008 8:01 AM EDT

Archery does seem expensive though I'm not sure how much easier it is to hit evasion minions now. Maybe it is too much.

Your strat is a very defensive one with 2 EO amf/ec, ToE and archer msk, damage reduction and seeking ability, you would expect to suffer from low damage output wouldn't you?

QBJohnnywas April 4 2008 8:04 AM EDT

I dunno how big Glory's bow is but he can hit my minion with (114) evasion in the first two rounds. But of course, amidst the talk of 'crushing blows tanks have been dealt' the changes to evasion seem to be ignored....
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