C'mon the exbow is a bit off, ya think? (in General)


QBRanger April 5 2008 1:52 PM EDT

Here is some of my latest fight with NS's character with its uber exbow:

Ember hit The Grid with A Named Enforcer's Crossbow [3]
The Grid looks weaker!


1 hit for 3 damage and my strength went from 7.7M to -230k.

All the time his tank has 1 strength from my EC.

How can this be both right and fair?

QBJohnnywas April 5 2008 1:54 PM EDT

A Named Enforcer's Crossbow [4x4000] (+177) worth $97,535,713


Coming from somebody who backed NW against evasion for all these months....

Kind of funny don't you think?

Ulord[NK] April 5 2008 1:55 PM EDT

Won't be a problem if you learn evasion instead of BL. Do you really need more damage?

QBRanger April 5 2008 1:56 PM EDT

My BL is base, just for show.

And with his +177 Exbow I would need a LOT of evasion to counter it.

I would use my DB's but they are too high for me to use. And if they go down to lets say 150, he would have a chance to hit me with moderately upgrade ammo, making my wearing them moot.

All I ask for is some balance between the x and the str of the user in determining the drain from the specialty bows.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] April 5 2008 1:57 PM EDT

without the looming specter of exbows what reason do you (specifically YOU) have for using dbs or evasion...

They are a check... plain and simple

Soxjr April 5 2008 1:57 PM EDT

Sox shot Ember with Spiral [516]
Lidda absorbs damage [516]
Sox shot Ember with Spiral [404]
Lidda absorbs damage [404]


OK then. if you go my NW... I'm using a bow that is bigger than his in NW .... and this is the effect I get after 1 hit from his exbow... Not multiple hits. ONE hit.. I go to negative 1.5 mil str... One hit taking a char from almsot 3 mil to negative 1.5 ... that's 4.5 mil drain from 1 hit.. Seems a bit much don't you think?

Little Anthony April 5 2008 1:59 PM EDT

"And with his +177 Exbow I would need a LOT of evasion to counter it."

what the heck? You probably ignore how much evasion I would need to counter your big MH? (+220 isn't it). and you now complaining about +177? HAHAHA. Ironic!

Ulord[NK] April 5 2008 2:00 PM EDT

Let's not forget that exbow does absolutely nothing to mages. Do I hear check and balance? Either free up some encum for a big DB or accept the fact that there are some strategy you cannot beat.

QBRanger April 5 2008 2:02 PM EDT

"what the heck? You probably ignore how much evasion I would need to counter your big MH? (+220 isn't it). and you now complaining about +177? HAHAHA. Ironic! "

Considering my MH does about 600k damage and does not completely take your DD spell from 7M to -230k it is not a comparable example.

Now if I had a weapon that with 1 hit would lower your 7M FB to less then 0, how would you be typing, HAHAHA? Imagine if my MSB did that instead of damage.

I think not.

QBRanger April 5 2008 2:05 PM EDT

Gee Ulord,

What if the MSB, instead of doing damage, lowered the DD spell of the minion it hit/seeked?

And it lowered the damage of a 7M FB to less then 0? No matter the strength of the attacking minion or the damage it does?

How would you feel then?

So please contribute a logical reason why an exbow with 1 hit for 3 damage should take away over 8 million strength. Making a whole character worthless in ONE hit.

Ulord[NK] April 5 2008 2:06 PM EDT

Perhaps you should consider disenchanting your morg and make some space for a pair of DB. You can't have EVERYTHING on your character, that's the whole point of this change.

Little Anthony April 5 2008 2:09 PM EDT

I have seen something that can reduce my HP down to negative before in 1 hit, disregarding to how much xp i trained in various place? Your strategy is weak against range and especially exbow. I have seen comrade TH used this strategy effectively before.

QBRanger April 5 2008 2:09 PM EDT

Again,

Answer me this:

Why should an exbow used by a minion with 1 strength doing 1 point of damage take away all 7.7M of my tanks strength putting it to negative 230k?

Is there any other item that does all that nerfage?

My 115M MsK did nothing similar. Yes it hit and did damage but I needed a lot of str go get that effect.

My Morg does a lot of damage but i need strength to do it.

So please, instead of just disagreeing to disagree, answer my question.

AdminNightStrike April 5 2008 2:12 PM EDT

"Is there any other item that does all that nerfage? "

Axbow....

Ulord[NK] April 5 2008 2:12 PM EDT

That can be prevented by equipping DB, which is NW countering NW. Pound for pound. Encum for Encum. What is the problem?

QBRanger April 5 2008 2:17 PM EDT

Then why did we need this whole ENC thingy?

We all could have said DBs are the solution to tanks and leave it at that.

I am saying it is right for an exbow to drain over 8M strength from 1 hit doing 1 damage?

I believe there should be a scale based on the x of the exbow and the str of the minion doing it, with damage done being in it as well.

This is not about me using or not using DB's. This is about what the exbow should be doing.

Again, what if the MSB instead of doing damage took away your entire DD spell level? Same analogy.

AdminNightStrike April 5 2008 2:21 PM EDT

Ok, first, damage doesn't matter. Everytime I mention the low damage of the exbow, I'm met with "cross bows aren't supposed to do any damage". So forget the low damage. You should always get full drain on 1 point of damage regardless of any other would-be changes.

Mikel April 5 2008 2:22 PM EDT

Use your heads.
Ranger is right.
The Drain should be scale based off of the St of the minion wielding it.
Otherwise, it's a bit unbalanced.

I don't always understand why so many people jump up and down when Ranger points something out that is out of whack.

Not all of the time is something out of whack, but obviously this is. So why the pointless arguments?

QBRanger April 5 2008 2:23 PM EDT

So how about the strength of the minion using it.

After EC applied?

Should that not matter as well?

Gandalf April 5 2008 2:28 PM EDT

It would make more sense for the drain to be based off of your STR.

I can see Rangers point clear as crystal, well pointed out.

three4thsforsaken April 5 2008 2:37 PM EDT

Use Phantom link, problem solved

Mikel April 5 2008 2:38 PM EDT

Also, since Encumbrance is in place, this item is now capable of double-dipping.
Then, I'm wondering what your Encumbrance is after your ST going down to 1 is.
Shouldn't that also factor in to the effectiveness of your Ex-Bow?
The same should also apply for Ax-bows.

iBananco [Blue Army] April 5 2008 2:39 PM EDT

Nothing that takes place after the enchantment round affects encumbrance.

Mikel April 5 2008 2:42 PM EDT

read the wiki.

If an enemy minion's Phantom Link absorbs the damage caused by the Exbow, the ST drain is applied to the minion that absorbed the damage. However, Phantom Link will only absorb the drain if PL minion has positive ST. (But, PL still always absorbs all of stat drain, no partial drain.)

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] April 5 2008 2:42 PM EDT

I've considered them broken since the linear x cost change. It has been mentioned but not enough people have taken them up to the size where the problems start to get much support for a change.

Mikel April 5 2008 2:45 PM EDT

"Nothing that takes place after the enchantment round affects encumbrance."

Correct, but Ranger's EC happens in the enchantment round. So this should knock NS's Enc down for that minion before the actual fight starts.

iBananco [Blue Army] April 5 2008 2:48 PM EDT

Oh, I thought you were arguing that since you thought exbows/axbows affected enc, it was overpowered.

Mikel April 5 2008 2:51 PM EDT

Ah I was, (the double-dipping part) but thanks for clearing that part up with me. I hadn't fully read it yet and I don't have any troubles from anyone draining my ST, so I didn't get to see if it would effect my Enc.

QBRanger April 5 2008 2:52 PM EDT

Yes I could use PL, but 1 hit will cause the PL minion's str to go negative and hit number 2, for all of 1 damage will take my main tank to well below 0.

But as I stated, why should not my EC effect his strength making his exbow drain very little?

PS: I am not typing about the exbow causing a lower ENC as this does not happen.

8DEOTWP April 5 2008 3:02 PM EDT

Leave exbow alone, and make axbows drain at least 5 million dex, and 2 million evasion with one damage.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] April 5 2008 3:12 PM EDT

Exbows, and axbows drain in 2 parts. A direct drain related to str, and a % drain from just the x. That exbow is just so big that it drains everything with just the % drain.

It only did 3 damage so I would say the solution is to add some AC. Switch from a mgs to a MS and you wont get drained anymore.

AdminNightStrike April 5 2008 3:18 PM EDT

"for all of 1 damage "

Quit using the damage of the exbow to make your argument seem artificially stronger. Once you do that, I'll give your arguments an honest evaluation.

QBRanger April 5 2008 3:24 PM EDT

OK,

Fine,

Is it right that someone with just 1 strength using an exbow doing an unknown amount of damage can drain 8M strength?

Since of course damage means nothing. If that exbow hit did 0 damage, no strength would be lost but any damage means an entire 8M is lost.

I thought that the drain was based on both the minion wearing its strength AND the x on the weapon.

Well one of the 2 factors is completely neutralized. Is that exbow just too freaking powerful where an enchanter with 1 strength can drain 8 million strength?

If not, why can a tank with 1 strength have all that drain. Remember EC applies before the battle actually starts.

So NS, I took the damage out of the equation, now give my arguments an honest evaluation.

Soxjr April 5 2008 3:25 PM EDT

My argument wasn't based on your damage. Mine was based on you did 1 hit.. Only 1.. not 2 or 3 or 4. but 1 hit... and you took my str to -1.5 mil.. from almost 3 mil.. and with ranger it's -200k from 7 mil.. that's a bit much for 1 hit.. I don't care if you did 1 mil damage. but in 1 hit.

QBRanger April 5 2008 3:26 PM EDT

For the purpose of this discussion this is the exbow:

A Named Enforcer's Crossbow [4x4000] (+177) worth $97,535,713 owned by NightStrike (The Iconics 3e)

Huge indeed. But should it neutralize an entire character in 1 hit?

TheHatchetman April 5 2008 3:29 PM EDT

1 damage is about that of a papercut... I believe the amount of damage in theory is relevant ;) An opponent with barely the strength to lift his weapon is firing, and by magical enchantment, a bolt finds its way to it's target, scratches it, and brings it from a lumbering Hulk, into an entity with all the physical strength of an overboiled angel hair noodle...

TheHatchetman April 5 2008 3:31 PM EDT

no disrespect, of course, to Lethargic Linguini, Nocturnal Spaghetti, and Macaroni is magnificent... But Angel Hair? bleh!

QBRanger April 5 2008 3:32 PM EDT

With 3,000,000 HP and ST: 7,820,000 / 3,400,000, I guess any nick, scratch, hangnail, toe bruise should be able to infect such a cut with the bad humors of the evil angel of weakness.

Does not matter that someone who can barely lift their head due to having a 1 strength barely pulls the firing mechanism.

But, regardless of the almost NO damage done, why is it right as asked above?

AdminNightStrike April 5 2008 3:38 PM EDT

"Since of course damage means nothing. If that exbow hit did 0 damage, no strength would be lost but any damage means an entire 8M is lost. "

That, to me, should change -- especially if you are advocating to somehow nerf the drain. If the drain gets nerfed, then it should cause drain even on a hit for zero damage. After all, it's the hit and not the damage that does the drain.



"I thought that the drain was based on both the minion wearing its strength AND the x on the weapon."

There are 3 components to the drain -- shooter's *trained* ST (ie, unaffected by any ST boosts from gear, etc... this also means unaffected by any ST nerf's from things like EC), weapon x, and the defender's ST (again, I believe it's the defender's trained ST only, but I never finished getting actual data on that).

There are also two components to the drain from the weapon x -- a linear drain, and the aforementioned percentage of target's ST.


You have pointed out that you think the drain is too much. What are you suggesting it be changed to? You seem to be suggesting that it be zero (or virtually nil) if the shooter has negative ST. Is this really what you are suggesting? If not, quantify it.

It seems as though you are trying to say that because the exbow lowers ST, then a shooter with no ST shouldn't be able to use it. Is that the case?

AdminNightStrike April 5 2008 3:39 PM EDT

"regardless of the almost NO damage done"

Stop it.

miteke [Superheros] April 5 2008 3:40 PM EDT

As an owner of an AxBow, I have to agree with Ranger. Once you hit about 3200 x, the specialty xbow drains everything in one blow because of its % affect. It should scale instead of being % based. Otherwise a 1M PR character could hit a 500M PR character once with an AxBow and totally neuter him. Probably end up in a stalemate, but you get my point.

tasuki [UFC] April 5 2008 3:46 PM EDT

"The Drain should be scale based off of the St of the minion wielding it.
Otherwise, it's a bit unbalanced. "

If an old lady stabs you with poison, does the poison affect you less than if you were stab by a strong man with the same poison?

QBRanger April 5 2008 3:50 PM EDT

"That, to me, should change -- especially if you are advocating to somehow nerf the drain. If the drain gets nerfed, then it should cause drain even on a hit for zero damage. After all, it's the hit and not the damage that does the drain. "

Those are your thoughts. I never ever stated that a hit for zero should drain something. I believe the damage you do should factor into the amount of drain. I know full well that specialty xbows are not damage dealers but they do some damage.

I am not suggesting that a minion with 1 strength due to ENC and/or EC should not be able to use a weapon. But if the weapon was a elb, mh, vb,, etc.. it would do less then 1k damage.

Since it seems that my trained strength of over 3M is doing nothing to help resist the strength drain, that has to be boosted. The resistance you get from native trained strength.

However, there should be a sliding scale of strength drain based upon factors such as shooters final strength at the beginning of battle. And damage done to the target. There should be some sort of cap on the drain per hit.

Why makes the exbow so special in that EC does not effect its use? Only trained strength at the beginning of the battle. That makes no sense at all. If more hp can make you last longer vs conventional weapons, how come more strength cannot help vs exbows.

It lowers my strength to below 0 in 1 hit just as effect as Sox's str of 3M in 1 hit. That alone is skewed.

Lochnivar April 5 2008 3:51 PM EDT

since I use an (albeit underpowered) exbow I figured I may as well weigh in on this one.

This actually reminds me of a thread NS started about the all-or-nothing EC levels earlier. His point was that the ability of EC to nuke strength and render weapons totally useless was perhaps unbalanced... I believe the suggestion was for a more AMF like application of EC penalties.

Here we have a similar issue involving the complete negation of substantial xp and NW. Since this is apparently possible with a STR of 1 it is basically the mirror image of the EC issue. Essential one thing (xp for EC, or NW for Exbow) can negate two: STR & weapon NW.

I think an Exbow of that size should be punishing to someone's damage output, but reducing that much STR and NW down to less that 10k damage with one hit is a tad is excessive.

tasuki [UFC] April 5 2008 3:51 PM EDT

But I do agree the amount drain seems extreme.

QBRanger April 5 2008 3:54 PM EDT

"If an old lady stabs you with poison, does the poison affect you less than if you were stab by a strong man with the same poison?"

Certainly not, however if a frail lady stab you, she might not even break the skin-1 damage.

If a massive hulk stabbed you, it would likely puncture a lung. 20,000 damage.

And as we all know, if a poison does not get into the blood stream it is not as effective. A small bruise that does not break the skin will not let poison enter your body, a deep puncture will.

The poison's effect will be the same given blood draw.

1 damage out of 3M HP is not drawing blood in my book, and if it is, it is not a very bloody cut.

So in my thinking, damage does DOES matter. Contrary to NS trying to make it a non-issue. It certainly is.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] April 5 2008 3:57 PM EDT

I think the effect of STR on damage should be increased just enough so that this isn't a problem. I'm actually surprised that with enc as it is the drain works at all. My Junction minion with base decay does 0 damage even to DM teams...why not a tank that's been ec'ed to death.

QBRanger April 5 2008 3:59 PM EDT

"This actually reminds me of a thread NS started about the all-or-nothing EC levels earlier. His point was that the ability of EC to nuke strength and render weapons totally useless was perhaps unbalanced... I believe the suggestion was for a more AMF like application of EC penalties."

Excellent point!

However the xp needed for EC to completely nerf an equivalent tanks str would be massive. I know I tried.

And one can use items to massively boost ones strength including a TOA.

Yes one can use DBs to help vs the exbow, but not everyone has a set of +200 DB's lying around. If i lower them to an acceptable ENC range of +150, I will get hit due to the PTH of his exbow and his arrows. Both named of course.

Even 7.7M strength is not enough to stop a 100% plus drain in 1 hit.

TheHatchetman April 5 2008 4:02 PM EDT

"I will get hit due to the PTH of his exbow and his arrows"

If he used arrows, you'd have nothing to worry about ;)

QBOddBird April 5 2008 4:02 PM EDT

A Named Enforcer's Crossbow [4x4000] (+177) worth $97,535,713 owned by NightStrike (The Iconics 3e)

Huge indeed. But should it neutralize an entire character in 1 hit?




This is reminiscent of old Elbow conversations! :)

QBRanger April 5 2008 4:02 PM EDT

OK

Bolts for completeness sake :)
Thanks hatch.

AdminLamuness April 5 2008 4:03 PM EDT

I have a grenade. Through the magical enchantment of science, the grenade now acts like a nuclear bomb. I'm a little kid and I don't have the ST to throw the grenade very far, but when it goes and HITS, boy does it hurt.

Exbow is fine the way it is. It is doing what it was designed to do. Exbow was never dependent on the user's strength. It is a magical weapon. It seems you're saying the amount of ST a player drains from their opponent should be directly proportional. I say nay. This is a fantasy game, not everything has to be logical.

TheHatchetman April 5 2008 4:03 PM EDT

"This is reminiscent of old Elbow conversations! :)"

Elbow needed ST :P

BluBBen April 5 2008 4:04 PM EDT

As the owner of the second largest Exbow in this game and there for quite bit of experience from it I can say that ranger is right. Exbow _IS_ overpowered. We need to incorporate the damage done to the target into the ST draining equation to make it balanced.

Just my little cent.

QBRanger April 5 2008 4:06 PM EDT

Lam:

One can use the same arguemnt with respect to an ELB wielded by a 1 str archer.

However, the exbow is not a AOE type of damage. It is person to person.

The analogy you use is ok, however apply it to all weapons and it does not apply.

AdminLamuness April 5 2008 4:16 PM EDT

Ranger: The analogy you use is ok, however apply it to all weapons and it does not apply.
Sure it does.
These are magical weapons: VB, MH, BTh, Mageseeker, Axbow, Exbow.
They will always perform what they were built for regardless of the user's intrinsic abilities.
Your example of Elb is flawed, since it does not have magical properties. It is a regular weapon (a good weapon), but relies on it's owner's strength as well.

The rest of the weapons are also not magical. They rely on their owner's stats to do what they were intended to do (be it for damage or whatever).

Let's try to at least keep some fantasy left in the game, k?

QBRanger April 5 2008 4:20 PM EDT

Lam,

You hit exactly on my point, thanks for helping me with my discussion.

The process by which the Exbow drains strength is flawed. I have stated it before.

Is it right that an item has such a powerful inate ability to be able to drain 8M strength regardless of the strength of the user at the beginning of the battle and regardless of the damage it does?

If you think this is appropriate so be it. Then at x3370 one can have 1 hit TOTAL strength/dexterity draining ability.

I counter by saying this is wrong and the users final strength AND the damage done has to be factored into the final strength drain.

Just like all other weapons have a lowered effectiveness with lower strength, so should these xbows. Like the SoD and MsB which are magical weapons.

BluBBen April 5 2008 4:21 PM EDT

This is not about fantasy or how realistic the game should be. It's pure game balance problem. And the Exbow are overpowered!

three4thsforsaken April 5 2008 4:23 PM EDT

If Exbow is nerfed, it needs some boost to make it usable. Maybe a damage boost, maybe another property. It's a black and white ranged world out there. All I see are MgK and SoD

BluBBen April 5 2008 4:25 PM EDT

Well, Exbows in general aren't unbalanced. But as soon as they are x1500+ they become VERY powerful. My sugjestion are something like this "X of the weapon (times) ST of the attacker (times) Damage done = Drain. So if either of these are zero then the drain will be zero.

QBRanger April 5 2008 4:29 PM EDT

If people think EC is so powerful, there are plenty of ways to overcome it.

TSA, TOA, TG, HOE to name a few.

I would have little problem with losing a lot of strength from 1 hit if my EC did not completely nerf NS's strength.

I do think there has to be a 1 hit cap on the reduction but if not that is not as bad as things are now.

And drain IMO, has to be related to the damage done.

three4thsforsaken April 5 2008 4:32 PM EDT

and with the little damage that is done, I see very little drain. I say this because I'm do not want the Exbow to become worse than a Mgk or SoD. Whatever happens to the exbow, it should still be able to compete with them.

Windwalker April 5 2008 4:36 PM EDT

And drain IMO, has to be related to the damage done This sounds fair. That kind of drain is pretty extreme for one hit.

AdminLamuness April 5 2008 4:36 PM EDT

The Exbow in itself is perfectly fine. What I think you're really looking for is a way to reduce the amount that is being drained as there is no real counter for it. Some people have already suggested to either evade/dodge. If that's not optional, then why not increase the upgrade curve on the PTH for ex/axbows? Make it that much more expensive.

Mikel April 5 2008 4:42 PM EDT

wow, so with all of this said,
Ranger, you should pump up an Axbow and Exbow and then you won't have need for any EC and can convert it all to HP/ST.

There, problem solved.

QBJohnnywas April 5 2008 5:47 PM EDT

I still think it's funny that after all the threads about evasion (is it right that a trained stat should be able to negate a XXXX million dollar NW weapon) that you're complaining about an XXXX million dollar NW weapon negating a trained stat.


This is why people trained evasion so high. To dodge uber weapons. Because the uber weapons hurt when they hit.


Right and fair? Dunno. Funny. Definitely.

Ancient Anubis April 5 2008 6:29 PM EDT

why not make it that axbow and exbow drain 25% st and dx respectively per hit. The + shouldn't decide any % it should be there like any other weapon to decide if and how many times it hits,

seems bit fairer guaranteed magical effect but means more hits to fully drain.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] April 5 2008 6:34 PM EDT

"Here is some of my latest fight with NS's character with its uber exbow:

Ember hit The Grid with A Named Enforcer's Crossbow [3]
The Grid looks weaker!


1 hit for 3 damage and my strength went from 7.7M to -230k.

All the time his tank has 1 strength from my EC.

How can this be both right and fair?"

i will not say it is right or fair, but for around 100 million nw it is at least not as insulting as the 40% damage reduction you get with an under 6 million nw mage shield.

QBRanger April 5 2008 6:42 PM EDT

So, if I spend 100M on my mgs, can I neutralize 100% of your dd spell? If so, that is not right.

Ulord[NK] April 5 2008 7:10 PM EDT

Why not make Exbow drain a percentage of weapon damage instead? Just like how an MGS works. Cap it at 80% or something.

Cube April 5 2008 7:14 PM EDT

AA it depends on the X not the +

QBRanger April 5 2008 7:25 PM EDT

"still think it's funny that after all the threads about evasion (is it right that a trained stat should be able to negate a XXXX million dollar NW weapon) that you're complaining about an XXXX million dollar NW weapon negating a trained stat. "

GL, have you not been paying attention all this time?

People were complaining about the LACK of xp needed in evasion for its benefit. I used EC for the same benefit and saw hardly any complaints as people saw the xp I needed to invest. With the AOF boosting evasion to super high levels, it was insane the benefit one had.

With the exbow, even after the users strength is nuked, it has full benefit. Different analogy.

QBJohnnywas April 5 2008 7:52 PM EDT

GL? lol

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] April 5 2008 7:56 PM EDT

"with the 40 percent ranged damage reduction against a mage shield with the random factors, a mage can at best hope for 18 to 36% of their damage. this is before any armor bonuses or amf reductions."

quoting myself from this thread:

http://www.carnageblender.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002O9W

it may not be 100 percent but we are talking a 6m investment compared to 100m investment. i would be much happier with the mage shield being in the game if it cost 100 million to get the 40 percent reduction. : )

QBRanger April 5 2008 8:00 PM EDT

JW,
my apologies to GL!!

Dude, the MgS has been discussed quite a lot in previous threads.

Not to clutter this one but even I agreed the upgrade curve for the MgS is too easy.

But then again, the MgS works on 1 minion and it is not the attacking minion.

The exbow problem can take all strength in 1 hit,

Ancient Anubis April 5 2008 9:10 PM EDT

sorry but still x determines damage and + whether u hit the drain should be a fixed % seperate to its other stats. It should be an inherit ability in the crossbow like mage seeking in the msk.

AdminNightStrike April 5 2008 9:15 PM EDT

Ranger,

So you basically want EC to be able to eliminate the drain of Ex/Axbows, yes?

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] April 5 2008 9:18 PM EDT

A simple cap on the drain seems sensible. Letting it drain 100% with 1 hit just seems too much as I have said for a very long time now.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] April 5 2008 9:20 PM EDT

hmm, i think my point got lost. you asked if it was fair and right. fairness means we are all equally treated. if we all have our banes, the things that we truly think are unjust, then maybe it is fair. if we all have some really unjust counter to part of our strategy, then perhaps fairness has been achieved. as for being right or wrong, only jon knows what his vision was, therefore anything in game can be said to be right unless he states it is a bug.

i believe it was oscar wilde who once said "life is not fair and it is a good thing for most of us that it is not" or something to that effect.

TheHatchetman April 5 2008 9:20 PM EDT

I think the idea was make the drain somewhat ST-reliant...

ie make it 60% maximum drain from enchantment, and 50% based on the relative ST of shooter/target... So If you have no ST, you will still drain 60% of ST... but say you have half as much ST as a target, you can drain 85%... Numbers are theoretical, if this seems reasonable, play with the numbers a bit and find something more fitting. If not, flame away ^_^

QBRanger April 5 2008 9:25 PM EDT

Yes, but should an inherent ability in a specialty xbow get to the point where one of the 2 things determining effect is 100%.

To me, something as powerful as nerfing a tanks entire strength in the VERY first round of battle, should be reserved for the best of the best. A top notch (strength) minion with a top notch xbow in combination should nerf a large part but never all. There are some ways around it, namely just evasion and/or DBs. Poor choices for tanks to have to make.

However, NS's tank gets all his strength nerfed by my EC. And still gets to suck 100+% of my tanks strength.

So, make a x4000 exbow, give it to a 20 str enchanter and be able to nerf another character? We almost there? That is what I worry about. Money is now very plentiful. Some can spend 100M for the 1 item that is guaranteed to win vs tanks. Pump up the + and USD>>>USD in DBs win.

A true he who spends the most wins. All in 1 item.

iBananco [Blue Army] April 5 2008 9:27 PM EDT

I'd like to add in the fact that an enchanter with 20 ST, 20 DX, and 100k encumbrance limit can successfully use an exbow to its fullest extent.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] April 5 2008 9:32 PM EDT

"There are some ways around it, namely just evasion and/or DBs. Poor choices for tanks to have to make."

at least you have some ways around it, regardless of how poor the choices are. that which i spoke of above has no real counter in game and i received hostility from tanks when i asked for one.

TheHatchetman April 5 2008 9:34 PM EDT

MgS does nothing to Exbow ;P

QBRanger April 5 2008 9:51 PM EDT

Outstanding idea Hatch.

Make BOTH things that effect its drain be factored. Only if all are maxed can it drain 100%.

And to NS;
"So you basically want EC to be able to eliminate the drain of Ex/Axbows, yes? "

Hatch has posted a great solution:

Have the drain be based:

50% x of the xbow and 50% on the strength ratio (final after EC applied/GS applied). With a max ratio you get full 50% scaling to 0% for 0 ratio.

Then drain that % per hit. With the new strength per round calculated.

IE: With 0 strength and using a x4000 exbow (if that gives max weapon drain) you drain my tanks strength 50% each round.

My starting strength is 7,820,000 . I lose 20k due to his EC:

Strength at start of round: Round number Number of hits:
7,800,000 Round 1 1
3.900,000 Round 2 1
1,950,000 Round 3 1
975,000 etc.....

As it is now, with 9 hits (per my last battle) I would end with 30,408 strength. Not a bad result given the attacker had 0 strength.

Now, I would call maxed strength a 2:1 advantage (attacker/defender) and linearly titrate it down to a 0 strength for the attacker.

If any tank can get a 2:1 strength advantage on a tank I can make, let it suck all my strength in 1 blow.

AdminNightStrike April 6 2008 12:15 AM EDT

"So, make a x4000 exbow, give it to a 20 str enchanter and be able to nerf another character?"

An x4000 Exbow in the hands of a 20ST minion does very little. I already explained to you how the Exbow works.

AdminNightStrike April 6 2008 12:19 AM EDT

So in your example, you can zap all of my ST before the battle even starts, and it takes 9 hits to still leave you with a positive ST (which, as you pointed out so many times, will still deal serious damage, since to be effective, a Strength-reducer needs to reduce an opponent to zero).

So then I have a 100m cross bow that accomplishes very little.

Yeah, back to the drawing board on that one.

QBRanger April 6 2008 12:21 AM EDT

Yes, you certainly did.

Your tank has about 1.3M trained strength.

So let us put that exbow of yours on an enchanter and train about 1M strength. No hp or dex needed.

Then vs any non evasion/+150 DB tank, you can nerf their entire attack. In 1 hit doing just 1 damage.

Sounds like a plan to me. I have a bunch of CB2 sitting around now.

An attack not subject to modifiers from AC/TOE/ENC loan or even Ethereal Chains. Bump up the + as needed. Just make sure it is x3500-x4000. Spend enough money to neutralize anyones tank.

USD WINS!!!!!



QBRanger April 6 2008 12:23 AM EDT

So then I have a 100m cross bow that accomplishes very little.

Yeah, back to the drawing board on that one.

If you think I do a lot of damage with only 30k strength, speak with Hzarb.

I stalemated him quite a lot due to a low strength from his EC.

Little Anthony April 6 2008 12:23 AM EDT

USD did not win before? what did i miss?

QBRanger April 6 2008 12:24 AM EDT

The Grid pounded Gera with Boomstick [83161]

With 300k strength. 30k will do even much less. This is not good enough for you?

Little Anthony April 6 2008 12:28 AM EDT

NightStrike does about 14 hits against my PL minion and leave it with -3.2mil ST. Each of his hit does about 120k ish damage. Seems pretty normal to me.

AdminNightStrike April 6 2008 12:34 AM EDT

haha.. now you're talking about training 1.3M ST on an enchanter... That's funny :)

If you think it's that powerful, go for it. If you have an extra 15,600,000 XP to spare on your enchanter, and at least another 80m XP to put into enchantments to get the encumbrance NW high enough to hold the exbow, then another 30m XP to hold the corn.... so if you have an enchanter with about 110m XP and an extra 16m XP for the ST train.... go for it!

QBRanger April 6 2008 12:41 AM EDT

"NightStrike does about 14 hits against my PL minion and leave it with -3.2mil ST. Each of his hit does about 120k ish damage. Seems pretty normal to me."

Normal for what?

Normal for doing lower damage, certainly.

Normal for lowering your PL minions strength from 20 to -3.2mil in 14 hits?

Normal for it to take 7.7M strength to -230k in 1 hit for 1 damage?

Define what you think normal is. If you think 20 to -3.2Mil which is about 230k a hit is normal, I can live with that. But is 8+ million strength in 1 hit normal?

It is the highest effective strength in the game and likely 1st or 2nd in all of CB skill/stat/spell levels.

Imagine there is a new bow, anti DD that with 100M invested can take your FB from 7.2M to 0 in 1 hit for 1 damage. O my the mages would be up in arms. And please do not say the MsB since it does average damage and will not kill a mage in 1 hit, much less 5. I know since I had the largest with one of the highest strengths and still hit only 6 times on average vs you in missile. I did about 500-700k a hit vs you. With all your HP and PL, I rarely killed your mage in missile rounds.

And your only defense is super high evasion (as not to be hit even ONE time) and/or huge NW expensive DBs. How would that sound?

And please do not say "you can use evasion and DBs".. Remember I have to not be hit even ONE time for ONE damage to be 100% nuked. Tough to be 100% sure of not getting hit. Lots of xp and USD needed there.

I am just lucky NS does not: use the VB on his tank, use the xp from UC and pump strength, and pump up some DBs with all his CB2. I would certainly lose to him or have to radically change Koy.

And the whole battle is essentially over round 1, from 1 hit for 1 damage.

And I will continue to use 1 damage since damage should matter to the leech. I know it presently does not and that is a big part of my problem with the current method of drainage.

AdminNightStrike April 6 2008 12:42 AM EDT

"If you think I do a lot of damage with only 30k strength, speak with Hzarb."

You are changing your story now? You have post after post after post talking about how you need to have EC high enough to bring ST to zero, and even with 20ST, people can do a lot of damage. When did you start singing a different tune?

As for the 30k, that's after 9 hits. 9!

I think what it comes down to is that I have a weapon doing the same thing that your EC is doing, and you don't like that. The only difference is that you can dodge my weapon. I can't dodge your EC.

If you're advocating nerfing the exbow, then take a hit on EC. Make EC miss, or have some other possible counter other than "train more ST." AMF has a counter, DM has a counter, EC does not. EC currently is the strongest spell in the game, being able to reduce every single stat that a tank has (now including AC via ENC). The only way for me to counter your EC is to stalemate you with an Exbow. That's it. There's no other possible way without ditching my entire setup.

Again, I say kick it back to the drawing board.

QBRanger April 6 2008 12:44 AM EDT

"80m XP to put into enchantments to get the encumbrance NW high enough"

Where o where does it say the leech of the exbow and its pth is lowered if your encumberance is .99999999?

Your dex may be 1 effectively but the PTH lets you hit anyone without DB and/or evasion. Remember you only have to hit 1 time for 1 damage and my character is attackless.

Your tank must be over his ENC after my EC. Yet you seem to leech 100+% of my strength with just 1 hit. An enchanter can be .999 ENC and still leech 100%.

AdminNightStrike April 6 2008 12:45 AM EDT

"And I will continue to use 1 damage since damage should matter to the leech. I know it presently does not and that is a big part of my problem with the current method of drainage."

Then damage for the exbow needs to be severely increased. Let it match those Elbow's doing 57893758975483957938 damage per hit.

QBRanger April 6 2008 12:54 AM EDT

"Then damage for the exbow needs to be severely increased. Let it match those Elbow's doing 57893758975483957938 damage per hit."

First of all, nobody is doing 1M a hit now routinely except perhaps Mikel, Freed and Beee.

With my MsK, I was doing about 700k a hit on average, rarely close to 1M.

You seem that you want 100% strength drain from 1 hit and will take no substitute. I can see your point.

I am stating my case for it being far too powerful for what you have to do to use it to 100% perfection (as in this case).

To get a 100% drain all you need is:

x4000 weapon
about 1.3M strength
ONE hit for any damage

You are immune to Ethereal chains and ENC penalties.

I would sure love a anti-anything weapon with those abilities/stats/requirements. Yes it does need NW, but most good things do.

That is quite powerful, if you disagree, fine. I stated my point, I am sure Jon has read this thread. Now it is up to him :)

Sickone April 6 2008 1:09 AM EDT

I'd say let's agree to the facts that:

* we don't know exactly how "special crossbows" leech ST/DX, we just know they do
* we can't agree on how exactly they should be draining stats in the first place anyway

Any further discussion should focus therefore on two issues:

* how exactly do crossbows drain stats (what are the actual rules)
* how exactly would we WANT crossbows to drain stats (and why)

See, wasn't that hard ;)

AdminNightStrike April 6 2008 1:09 AM EDT

I already posted how they drain stats.

Sickone April 6 2008 1:13 AM EDT

Oh, yes, you did... got lost in the sea of comments, but found it now.
Would help a lot if somebody added that to the wiki instead *wink*

So, nevermind, there's only one issue left then... how exactly should they drain stats... and why :p

tasuki [UFC] April 6 2008 1:14 AM EDT

Why was this not an issue before?

Mikel April 6 2008 1:17 AM EDT

"Why was this not an issue before?"
It has been for a while, but not much of a problem because Ranger could wear his DB's, now he's over Enc? maybe from his DB's, Tattoo, Mage Seeker and MH.

So like me he has to pick and choose what he can use, I am over enc when I have on my MH, so I took it off and I'm right in line.

Sickone April 6 2008 1:35 AM EDT

Since I don't use and I'm not affected by any crossbows at all, I'm kind of torn between the alternatives, yet I'm not really in a position to know all that much about it.

Still, it does seem even a little bit odd that everything else (including encumbrance) is affected by *effective* ST, whereas the drain stats on the crossbows are only affected by base ST (ToA adds to base ST btw), and the effect seems to be at least partially a percentage of the enemy ST (base or effective, again, a bit fuzzy on the concept).

In other words, it's "almost ok", but not quite yet.
If only the effect would be dependant on effective ST values, and the percentage effect would be capped at, say, 75% of enemy effective ST... now we'd be talking.

forktoad April 6 2008 1:42 AM EDT

Since Nightstrike is the only guy who ever thought of investing everything in crossbows when everyone was buying SoDs and Elbows what's the problem with him reaping the benefits of his investment.

(I mean if he's still at an advantage after introduction of encumbrance then he's probably got a really nice strat, right?)

Sickone April 6 2008 1:45 AM EDT

Can't really argue with that viewpoint :)

tasuki [UFC] April 6 2008 1:54 AM EDT

"Since Nightstrike is the only guy who ever thought of investing everything in crossbows when everyone was buying SoDs and Elbows what's the problem with him reaping the benefits of his investment."

Good news is he should be honor for it.
Bad news is he will be honored by having the nerf name after him. (more likely that not of this happening). When it does happen, I think exbow should get a 65% disenchantment return.

Kong Ming April 6 2008 2:45 AM EDT

Not siding with anyone but I do feel that hitting a minion for 1 damage and draining all its opponent strength in the process is a little hard to swallow. Maybe there needs to be a cap for exbow and axbow for the amount of drain they can do. Balancing required?

Ulord[NK] April 6 2008 3:14 AM EDT

Don't hold your breath for it. Jon rarely ever nerf things just because people jump up and down in forum for a few dozen posts, even if it is Ranger, NS, etc doing the jumping up and down. That's why Jon is cooler than all of us. :)

QBJohnnywas April 6 2008 3:54 AM EDT

The big question here is does this exbow magically let Nightstrike win all his battles? Is it unbeatable? Is it the key to riches and glory and the cheat code to a perfect win?

Looking through Nightstrike's battles I see plenty of people able to beat it. Including some wins by Koy. Meanwhile Nightstrike's fightlist appears to be very small. So apparently this 'amazing' weapon would possibly be better served as a 100 million NW paperweight.


Just another typical day in the life of Ranger and his Rollicking Rants.

QBJohnnywas April 6 2008 4:04 AM EDT

Ranger says: "You are immune to Ethereal chains and ENC penalties. "


I've a good idea. Why don't we make all built in special qualities affected by ENC penalties. You go over your ENC limit with a speciality weapon the in built quality takes a hit; so mage shield reduction goes down if you are over your limit; Morg's lose VA by a percentage; xbows lose their seek and drain; mageseekers lose their seek. But to be fair; bonus giving items should then lose their bonus by a percentage too; so Helms, Gi, Alatars, NSC etc etc should take a hit too.

It's only right and fair Ranger if you target one that you target all.

I mean the Morg grants a free immune to all penalties VA. Is that right and fair that you get an enchantment that no DM can touch?

QBRanger April 6 2008 8:33 AM EDT

JW,

That is a fine idea,

However, the morg's VA does not by itself make you win a battle. The mage seeking ability of the bow does not in 1 hit change the battle.

The 100% plus strength drain does.

NS should beat me, but persists in using UC without even using a CGI. If he would change his strategy, and unlearn UC, put the xp towards strength/HP, equp his other VB on that minion, he would likely crush me.

And yes, I did pursue it in the past. I made a post in Dec 07 about this same thing. You can find the post if you search my made threads. Now, with ENC coming into play, DB's large enough to counter his exbow are prohibitively costly. Therefore now, the problem is magnified.

Use xp into massive evasion (remember he just has to hit me ONE time for ONE damage) and/or use massive NW DB's (and put me way over my ENC, even with 7.7 Million strength). I have to 100% prevent him from even scratching me the drain is so large.

And as far as NS should get his benefit since he made the biggest exbow, pfft. I had the largest VB and lost tons of CB when it got nerfed. At leqst he can disenchant at 65%, I had to deinst mine at less then 50.

But again, what if the MsK drained DD spells 100% at x4000 on 1 hit of 1 damage. Same analogy, how would all the mages feel about that. With 1.3M trained strength not subject to ENC penalties or EC effects?

QBRanger April 6 2008 8:35 AM EDT

BTW:

There have been quite a few times where our "rants" have pointed out to Jon inequalities in the game. We try (and I frequently digress) to make discussions civil.

Case in point: The VB. Everyone knew it was overpowered and after a lot of postings about it, the VB was balanced.

Happened many times in the past.

Just because nothing is done now, does not mean nothing will be done.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] April 6 2008 9:58 AM EDT

it really just seems like the standard rock, paper and scissors that the game is built on. you can choose to use the counters and remove some nw that would allow you to win against others, or you can stay as you are and remove ns from your fight list.

these are the choices we all make all of the time. once again, at least you have a counter and thus a choice. as for the mages complaining, i do complain frequently about the mgs, that is mainly due to a lack of a counter. if there was an item that for 100m and it drained our dd down to 0, which would only be an 18 percent drain in the worst case scenario from what we are already facing, as long as we had a counter to it, then i think i would know what people would say, "you have a counter or two, is it truly our fault that you choose not to use it?"

Brakke Bres [Ow man] April 6 2008 10:03 AM EDT

I thought that jon didn't want the EC to be more powerful?
Thats why he made Encumb not be effected by EC, otherwise EC would be too powerful.
But if you make the EC effect how other people weapons react, other then nullifying the ST and Dex, then EC would effectively ruin that piece of equipment thus leading to less choice thus leading to boring game play?

QBRanger April 6 2008 10:12 AM EDT

Please let me be clear.

I can move things around and beat NS as well as my current fightlist. That is not a problem.

However, other people do not have the NW or MPR I do to compete with such an abusive weapon.

If you want to go archery, then you HAVE to use DBs to counter such a weapon.

EC will not work, AC will not work. One cannot use evasion. Having a super high strength will not work. You have 1 and only 1 thing to do, use very high + DBs to ensure you are not hit even ONE time for ONE damage.

If you play a UC tank, you have the exact same problem. You have to use DBs or make sure your UC skill is high enough to make them miss 100% of the time.

Forget about using EC, or GS, or any other spell/item (perhaps another exbow will stalemate the battle). If the attacker uses a TOA to gain more PTH, your really hosed as your DBs now have to be much much higher then the + on his exbow.

This limits choices, severely, other tanks have. I am still very shocked to this day no other high exbows have been made. But then again, a lot of people are just finding out how powerful they can be.

QBRanger April 6 2008 10:15 AM EDT

And WRT the MgS,

Yes it lowers damage about 40% for 6 million.

However it can only be used on special minion types and when that minion is the last one standing, s/he takes tons of damage even with a MgS.

I take over 1M from Conundrum's CoC even with my MgS/TOE combo when it is the last minion alive.

However, I would love for his exbow to drain only 40% of my strength per hit. Remember he does still have to hit me, while DD spells always hit.

But I did agree that the upgrade curve for the MgS is too easy, I think most people did and would not be adverse to Jon raising it.

QBJohnnywas April 6 2008 10:16 AM EDT

Evasion was a pretty good counter for something like this weapon. Ironic really.

QBRanger April 6 2008 10:25 AM EDT

Yes JW,

Evasion was.

But alas it has been properly nerfed.

But what about all those archers, UC tanks and those tanks that want to use BL.

Get a couple more nice exbows out there and they all have to use DBs and/or evasion. No way around it.

With 100% strength drain, no matter your starting strength and/or EC level, one has to make sure 1 of 2 things occurs:

1) If you get hit, make it for 0 damage. Right now with my ToE and NS's current strength (which is modified by EC), I can make his exbow do 0 damage. But if he ever unlearns UC and boosts his strength a bit, that may no longer be a solution.

2) Make sure, 100%, you do not get hit. This means using dex drain items/spells in conjunction with evasion/DBs.

Thats it, all one can do.

Not much of an option since when/if you get hit 1 time for 1 or more damage, your tank is useless.

QBRanger April 6 2008 10:27 AM EDT

And for those thinking I am doing this since the exbow effects me:

Remember I was one of the main people who kept posting about the VB before it was nerfed, even though I had the largest most expensive one. Pointing out how bad it was for the game and the only melee weapon to use at the time.

I asked for it to be balanced numerous times.

AdminNightStrike April 6 2008 10:33 AM EDT

"NS should beat me, but persists in using UC without even using a CGI. If he would change his strategy, and unlearn UC, put the xp towards strength/HP, equp his other VB on that minion, he would likely crush me. "

Adding a CG doesn't change the battle outcome very much. It's been much improved, which is wonderful, but there is still a tradeoff between the CG and a tattoo.

As for retraining to beat you, would that it were that easy! You are doing the same thing to me that you do to Sutekh -- "If your strategy was completely different, your results would be, too."



Look, Ranger, as I said before, I think this comes down to the fact that you want EC to counter yet one more thing. And it can't. It counters a *LOT* of stuff in this game, and Jon already made it clear why DX isn't part of the ENC calculation -- it would make EC even more powerful.

What you have to realize is that the stat draining bows by design drain stats based on hitting, not based on damage. They always have, even back when you used your massively giant Axbow. They aren't equipped to drain based on damage, and never have been. If you change that, then you have to compensate with allowing the xbows to deal massive amounts of damage, and you still have the issue of allowing EC to kill two more things from the game (Ax/Ex), which can't happen. Stat drain can't be blocked by EC, as it's the only way to match at least half of what EC does. Remember, EC has no counter other than "get more ST", and is already massively magnified by things like the AOF, which are required for getting a UC PTH into a range that will touch the broad side of a barn.




Also, as a point of clarification, you mention that a UC tank has to wear DB. A UC tank has to wear EB, not DB, and that is due to the giant PTH of all weapons, but just my Exbow.

QBsutekh137 April 6 2008 10:35 AM EDT

I have read some of the posts, and it is said that we know how the exbow drains. Can someone give a quick summary: just, what is it based on?

An exbow only has two attributes: x and +.

We know what + does. It lets the bow hit. That should be all it does. If the stat drain on an exbow is based on +, then that is very, very silly. So, I assume that isn't the case. PTH already has a use, and NightStrike uses it well!

We know what x does: damage. Damage can be affected by armor, etc. Damage is not the main focus of the exbow, so here the x could be used for something else -- the drain?

I'm confused, because it seems to me that the drain of the exbow can only be based on x. That's it. PTH already allows the hits, so it would be very stupid for that to also help with drain -- one could just invest all in +, no balance there.

Is x4000 big? Not really that big. It is just out of Top Ten (or tied for tenth) on the weapon list for x.

So, this weapon can drain all the strength from a minion with one scratch? Yeah, I'm with Mikel on this one -- shouldn't we use our heads and just see that that seems a bit extreme? Saying things like "Ranger is just ranting" or "use PL" aren't real solutions, people. Yes, Ranger could do a LOT of things, because he has good resources and large MPR. That doesn't mean the issue at hand shouldn't be analyzed.

I have no axe to grind... I beat Iconics, and an exbow has essentially no affect on me. I want the exbow to stay useful -- NS's strat is wonderful and should continue to be useful. But any item that can reduce an entire stat on a minion (a massive one) is silly. Do you think mages would all be going ho-hum if an item existed that could reduce DD to nothing with one scratch?

QBsutekh137 April 6 2008 10:38 AM EDT

Do we need another item stat for specialy bows? A "*" perhaps, where the effect is controlled by another investment?

x = damage
+ = cth
* = specialty level

Radical, but I really don't understand how else the exbow can work while being fair to both the exbow and the target. And it lets the curves for hitting, damage, and drain be independently controlled by the upgrade cost.

QBRanger April 6 2008 10:41 AM EDT

Ok,

First of all, UC is a great skill in the early stages of the game, where items can boost it relatively cheaply.

However, most of us know later on it is a poor choice. You want to use it and kudos for doing it.

I have retrained numerous times to keep up with my competition and just this week lost 45k MPR doing so. Others continue to resist doing it.

That aside, EC is quite powerful, but as many people pointed out in the past, has a low rate of return-50%.

If you want the base damage boosted to 5 from 4, I wholeheartedly agree. The damage has been too low for a long time. But it should not be ELB damage since it does have a special ability.

"Also, as a point of clarification, you mention that a UC tank has to wear DB. A UC tank has to wear EB, not DB, and that is due to the giant PTH of all weapons, but just my Exbow."

If you wear EBs, then your vulnerable to the very item you created. There is no way you can evade a +177 exbow 100% of the time. So when someone else makes a bow like that, your strategy is gone as is all other UC ones.

Without using EC, I doubt you can evade a +130 exbow 100% of the time.

But to have 1 item with 1 hit destroy a tank is far too powerful.

Like I stated, how would the mage community feel if the MsB did the same as the exbow? Took 7+ million levels of fireball away in 1 hit for 1 damage? I would gladly give up all the damage my MsB did for that ability.

I have yet to have a high DD mage answer that question.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] April 6 2008 10:45 AM EDT

"if there was an item that for 100m and it drained our dd down to 0, which would only be an 18 percent drain in the worst case scenario from what we are already facing, as long as we had a counter to it, then i think i would know what people would say, "you have a counter or two, is it truly our fault that you choose not to use it?""

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] April 6 2008 10:48 AM EDT

i am mostly playing the devil's advocate by the way. i do agree that the drain is a bit extreme. i just want to point out the inequity we see in the fact that there are two counters, you choose not to use them or think they are not available to the masses and that is valid.

remember though that there are items in the game with no counter at all. i just really feel strongly that before we get "ideal" counters for everything, maybe we should have at least one counter for all items?

furthermore, ec does plenty. when we were having the evasion discussion some wanted ec as a counter to evasio or even for ec to become the evasion ability. it is ironic that ec is our only answer to all problems is it not?

QBRanger April 6 2008 10:50 AM EDT

Sut,

The drain is based on primarily 2 things.

1) The x on the weapon.

We have found out that x4000 is the maximum or close to the maximum needed for a 100+% drain.

2) The LEARNED strength of the shooter. Not the boosted by item strength, or the strength after GS/EC is applied. Just the base strength.

3) There is no 3. It seems the targets strength does not matter as evidence by 100+% drain if I had 4 mil str vs 7.7 mil str (my trained str was 2.4 vs 3.4 mil in each case). Seems EC and ENC does not effect the drain. Seems damage done (unless it is 0) does not effect the drain.

NS does state that defenders trained strength is taken into account, however I say that is rubbish especially once the exbow x is 4x or more.

And thanks for finally addressing my point about the what if there is a DD draining bow with this ease of drain.


Dude:

If there was a DD draining item with the abilities of this exbow, you bet your bottom I would rail on it 100% of the time. While the MgS works on 1 minion, lowering damage, it does not completely nerf damage.

Just look at my railing about the RBF and its power. Its magic resistance should not be 100%, it should be on a curve and never ever stop 100% of any DD spell.

QBRanger April 6 2008 10:54 AM EDT

"remember though that there are items in the game with no counter at all. i just really feel strongly that before we get "ideal" counters for everything, maybe we should have at least one counter for all items? "

What items have no counter?

And question 2:

Do any of these items completely nerf a strategy in 1 hit, in the earliest part of the battle?

Weapons still have to hit, multiple times in order to do enough damage (most of the time) to kill a minion. And then there can be multiple minions you have to kill.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] April 6 2008 11:01 AM EDT

"What items have no counter?

And question 2:

Do any of these items completely nerf a strategy in 1 hit, in the earliest part of the battle? "

mgs has no counter (other than training more xp into it, which is really no counter at all as that is the same across the board in the game), as for the second question that is your addendum and has no bearing on my argument that if there are things in the game with 2 counters and things with no counters, which should be addressed first?

AdminNightStrike April 6 2008 11:05 AM EDT

"But to have 1 item with 1 hit destroy a tank is far too powerful."

How is that any different from you having one spell that nullifies all tanks before the battle even starts? We are doing the same thing -- you are just doing it more, as you remove all DX as well as ST.


"But it should not be ELB damage since it does have a special ability. "

A special ability which you want to base on damage dealt. Since you also want to be able to EC the damage dealt down to nothing, then you have to make the damage MUCH higher.

If you want to change the Exbow to being purely based off of damage, fine. Get rid of EC.

QBRanger April 6 2008 11:41 AM EDT

NS,

I really have nothing more to state.

My opinions I feel are very well stated, clearly demonstrated, and examples given.

EC is completely different as one can use items such as a TOA/TSA/TG/HOE, and xp to boost ones strength. And to completely nullify someone strength takes an excessive amount of xp. Even on Koy with my massive MPR advantage, I was unable to nullify every other tank out there, like the exbow can.

A 1 hit wonder is nothing like the spell EC, at least in my opinion.

So, without further ado,

This will be my last post on the subject, and I hope Jon is paying attention.

QBRanger April 6 2008 11:47 AM EDT

Well,

1 last post.

The MgS does not completely nullify your DD spell, yes it lowers it for the ONE minion wearing it.

And that minion wearing it has a few harsh detriments. One cannot use it with a tattoo. One cannot train DD spells and/or other spells.

So while it does lower damage for the minion wearing it, the rest of the character gets the full brunt of the damage. And when that 1 minion is left, the concentrated damage from FB/CoC is quite impressive, even with the MgS.

The exbow nullifies a tanks strength in just 1 hit. Battle over after round 1.

Dude, answer this:

Would you take getting rid of the MgS and converting the MsB to a DD draining type of weapons, with the same exact characteristics of the exbow? No defense except for DBs and evasion. So high each to make sure you do not get hit even 1 time for 1 damage!

I have stated that a physical damage reduction shield is a great possibility, but it has to have analogous restrictions to its use. Even give it the same upgrade curve. But have it nerf all spells except DD including skills. I do not see many mages agreeing to that.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] April 6 2008 11:52 AM EDT

i would love to see either of those things happen over the current mgs <6m investment nerfing 40% of damage that is already only at 50 to 100% in any given round.

you asked though what item has no counter and my point still stands. if we are going for the easy counters for all items, such as the exbow. then it just makes sense to me that first we should have at least some counter for all items.

i really just want to point out that you are seeking a third counter for an item when there is at least one item in the game with no counter, yet when i asked for one, or even a counterpart, tanks came out in droves to ridicule my idea. how exactly is this "fair and right?"

iBananco [Blue Army] April 6 2008 12:00 PM EDT

What I don't get is why you speak as if only mages are subject to random damage. Tank damage varies at LEAST from 60%-100%, judging from just one or two fights that I did. I'm sure that if I ran some more extensive tests, I'd see even more damage variation. The only difference is that you see what your max damage is, so you seem to expect that your spell should always perform at its best.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] April 6 2008 12:06 PM EDT

against the same opponent you see that variation in damage js?

"The only difference is that you see what your max damage is, so you seem to expect that your spell should always perform at its best."

where have i ever stated that? i expect that if dd can be reduced by 40 percent for an under 6m investment, that physical should be too or that we could get some counter to it.

iBananco [Blue Army] April 6 2008 12:08 PM EDT

"against the same opponent you see that variation in damage js?"
Across a multihit, even.

"where have i ever stated that? i expect that if dd can be reduced by 40 percent for an under 6m investment, that physical should be too or that we could get some counter to it.'
I'm conjecturing as to why most people feel that magic damage feels highly random, despite the fact that tank damage is nearly just as random.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] April 6 2008 12:10 PM EDT

"feel that magic damage feels highly random"

it doesn't just feel that way, it is inherent in its design. with physical damage it is not, so i am not sure what you are seeing, unless you are comparing numbers from different minions with different ac or damage reductions.

QBRanger April 6 2008 12:10 PM EDT

We digress.

The MgS has been discussed in plenty of past threads.

Most agreed that the upgrade curve should be raised.

However comparing it to the exbow with its 100% drain is an apples vs oranges type of discussion.

I would love if the exbow drained 40%, heck even 50% of my strength per hit. Then a smallish set of DBs and evasion may help lower the total number of hits. However, as it is now, ONE hit for ONE damage can do my tank in.

I am typing in this long thread about having more then 2 counters to an item that can completely destroy a character in the first round of battle.

And out of those 2 counters, you cannot use 1 if your an archer or UC tank. And cannot use BL. The other is prohibitively expensive when one has to figure in tank armors/weapons/ and then DBs.

Again all it takes is ONE hit for ONE damage.

iBananco [Blue Army] April 6 2008 12:13 PM EDT

Kirlian Voyager hit Trachals Shade [394803]
Shades of Mist absorbs damage [324000]
Kirlian Voyager shot Trachals Shade [609691]
Shades of Mist absorbs damage [248366]
Assuming that 609,691 is my max damage, there's an at least 64-100% variation right there.

QBRanger April 6 2008 12:13 PM EDT

The Grid pounded Brian Ritchie with Boomstick [983240]
The Grid draws strength from his weapon! [196648]
Brian Ritchie's Guardian Angel smote The Grid (86407)
The Grid crunched Brian Ritchie with Boomstick [1522520]
The Grid draws strength from his weapon! [304504]
Brian Ritchie's Guardian Angel smote The Grid (135281)
The Grid beat Brian Ritchie with Boomstick [1005091]
The Grid draws strength from his weapon! [201018]
Brian Ritchie's Guardian Angel smote The Grid (94667)
The Grid pulverized Brian Ritchie with Boomstick [1448311]

Same minion.

Damage ranged from 983,240 to 1,522,520.

Over a 50% difference.

Tanks get quite a range in damage also. It has never been brought up.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] April 6 2008 12:14 PM EDT

"I am typing in this long thread about having more then 2 counters to an item that can completely destroy a character in the first round of battle."

excellent, i wish you luck then and will leave your thread now. i hope to some day have just one counter to the mgs. perhaps we will both get what we want, i think the odds are about the same for either of them happening.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 6 2008 2:47 PM EDT

Back from a weekend away. ;) Heh, JW being mistaken for me. You know, we were thought of as mutlis. :P

I've got to go out now, but this is a thread to digest. ;) Thoughts later!

And that's a promise! :D

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 6 2008 5:28 PM EDT

OK, before I weigh in on this, could we go thorugh the draining mechanics one more time (sorry NS!), I'm just slow at picking this up.

An EXBow drain a percentage of the targets STR with each hit, regardless of any stats involved? This amount is 1/33. (So roughly 30K per hit from a target with 1M STR.

Then, there is an additional fixed amount of Drain caused on top of this.

It's this portion of the Drain that uses a combination of Attackers STR + EXBow 'x' versus Targets STR.

But the impression I got from reading up a bit was that this direct reduciton only rleies on the Attackers STR and EXBow 'x', so even at an attacking STR of 1 if you EXBow is large enough (it seems x4000) you will drain 100% of the Targets STR, regardless of thier STR score?

How does the direct drain function?

QBRanger April 6 2008 6:42 PM EDT

Who cares about any other functions when x4000 drains 100% of a persons strength?

QBOddBird April 6 2008 6:50 PM EDT

Who cares how much DX is nerfed when you can't hit (300)?

Who cares how strong your DD is when a MsKer will kill that minion round 1?

Who cares how much of an MPR advantage you have if NW can negate it entirely?

Who cares how much of a NW advantage you have if MPR can negate it entirely?

(though it seems impossible, both of those last two occur frequently and are posted about)

Some strategies are -designed- to negate another. If they do their job, who's to complain? If you had DBs big enough to dodge that Exbow, isn't that the proper counter? If you say you want another way to counter, you're going into the mage's limited options territory, really.

QBsutekh137 April 6 2008 6:53 PM EDT

Ranger, I got your CM. No, I don't like that idea.

The drain needs to be simplified. I want it to be a new attribute, or based on "base" damage. In other words, the damage it would do without AC etc. being involved. That seems fair, and is the same as forcing the firer to up his/her strength.

It's a "duh" folks. Just basing the drain on x is retarded. Fully, abysmally retarded. X is for damage. + is for hits. A is for Apple, J is for Jacks... oops, sorry. If there is drain, it needs to be one of two things:

-- Based completely on other attributes of the item (and I mean ALL attributes)
-- Have a new attribute.

Exbow can't be the first way, because the first attribute already does its thing along its own channel. Multiple hits already make the exbow work better (not that they are even needed after x4000!) And damage already is its own thing.

So, there needs to be something new. of make the curve on the drain higher so that a measley x4000 cannot drain all the STR. Hell, even if a team tried to go four-tank, he'd drain the offense in 4 rounds!

How is anyone totally OK with that?

QBRanger April 6 2008 7:05 PM EDT

One by one:

"Who cares how much DX is nerfed when you can't hit (300)?"

I have no idea what (300) is but pth on a weapon will let you hit no matter the dex you have. Subject to DBs and evasion. You can increase your dex or lower your enemies dex numerous ways.

"Who cares how strong your DD is when a MsKer will kill that minion round 1?"

With the new changes and ENC, I suspect it is impossible for a MsKer to kill a DD minion in round 1. Assuming equal MPR/NW. Soxjr might kill a few lower level mages in 1 round with his uber new bow and TOA, but thats about it. The new changes are designed to even out the game, and are doing a pretty decent job so far. The PL skill is the boon for mages as it lets them live tons longer. One hit kills with the MsK is a thing generally of the past.

"Who cares how much of an MPR advantage you have if NW can negate it entirely?"

Again, the new changes are addressing this. However, NW is NW. But look at Freed (the classic example); it takes him almost 1 BILLION NW to overcome 1M MPR NW.

"Who cares how much of a NW advantage you have if MPR can negate it entirely? "

I think people agree that if you have a massive MPR advantage, you can negate certain things with enough xp investment. I invested over 100M xp to negate all tanks but Freed. As I found out, that was too much an investment and left me open to mage attacks.

What I am typing about in this thread is a x4000 exbow wielded by a 1.3M base strength tank (who strength is 1 after spell casting) draining over 8 million strength in ONE hit for ONE damage.

Essentially ending the battle in round 1 of missile.

As Sut typed:
"So, there needs to be something new. of make the curve on the drain higher so that a measley x4000 cannot drain all the STR. Hell, even if a team tried to go four-tank, he'd drain the offense in 4 rounds!

How is anyone totally OK with that? "

I could not care the method of change, however, something different has to be done.

But I guess some people are totally OK, evidenced by the discussions above.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 6 2008 7:15 PM EDT

"Who cares about any other functions when x4000 drains 100% of a persons strength?"

>_<

If we know how it currently works, and how it's *supposed* to work, we can figure out if this just needs a bug fix, or a mechanics rework.

For example, it's seems to me, from the explaination of the EXBow, that regardless of the Targets stats, the direct drain (which is what we're talking about here, as I assume the 1/33 reduction of the targets current - or total - STR isn't the problem...) is based soley on the the attackers STR and the Weapons 'x'.

If this is the case, and this works off of pre battle stats (trained STR not aguemented STR from items/enchantments), I feel something is horribly broken.

There should be nothing in game, that you can set to a pre fight level, that does somehing as debilitiating as removing all STR, that ignores, completely ignores, anything your opponent has or does.

STR boosting on the defender, EO's ED. Nothing. That's not strategy.

Most things in CB are 'x' versus 'y' for effect. Is there any reason the generated direct drain of the EXBow shouldn't work in the same way?

If the direct Drain *does* compare the attacker to the defender, then we can move on. ;)

QBsutekh137 April 6 2008 11:01 PM EDT

GL,

"If we know how it currently works, and how it's *supposed* to work, we can figure out if this just needs a bug fix, or a mechanics rework. "

Either way, this needs a change, and "the exbow is a bit of, ya think?"

Ranger is right. I agree with him, and you do too. As we all know, this is mainly an attempt to get attention for Jonathan to do something. If this were something related to DD or tatoos it would likely be changed by now. This is crazy.

MudBug The Redeemer April 6 2008 11:58 PM EDT

it's a feature, not a bug?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 7 2008 4:36 AM EDT

Yeah Sute, I'm agreeing, I just think we need to know what we're compalining to Jon about. ;)

Maybe the EXBow works on in fight values, and even at 1 STR a x 4000 EXbow isn't supposed to to take 100%, but to take 2000 STR per 'x'.

That would make it take 8 Million STR per hit, and look like a 100% reduction to the 7 Mil or so example.

Now taking 2000 STR per point of 'x' seems to be slightly (lol!) large, and should (in my mind) warrant a nerfage.

But then nothing really needs to be done to EC etc, and the Drain working on a [3] damage hit isn't really part of the problem.

Bah! I suppose this is a case of too little information on our part, and all we can do is hope Jon takes a look at the code here and figures out what's happening. ;)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 7 2008 5:40 AM EDT

Additional thought.

The increase in Ranged rounds means you (generally, unless you're adamant about using it during Melee...) get more attacks with your E/AXBows.

Ranged damage was reduced to reflect this change, but the special drains weren't.

Maybe both Drains should (regardless of any other changes wanted here) also be reduced, just purely because of the increase in Ranged rounds.

QBRanger April 7 2008 9:21 AM EDT

One other thing I forget, my AoL:

So my strength is ST: 7,820,000 / 3,400,000 x 1.12 (named +11 AoL) = 8,228,000.

So I lose about 8.5 Million strength from one hit for any amount of damage.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 7 2008 5:55 PM EDT

The TSA regen and the BTH/Morg leeches are fixed amounts and have no bearing on the size of the items.

Would it be a good idea to change the E/AXBow to work in the same fashion? Divorce the special from the STR/X damage compenent.

Make them do something like drain 20% of the targets total stat on each hit? That way, over the five rounds, with just a single strike each round, they would by the end of Range reduce that target to zero.

Of course, the HoC and landing multiple hits a round would be able to improve this performance.

Brakke Bres [Ow man] April 7 2008 5:56 PM EDT

whats jon view on this one?

Mikel April 7 2008 6:14 PM EDT

Took out my 6.5 mil ST in one shot too. St Drain

Mikel April 7 2008 6:17 PM EDT

Note: I took off my DB's and put on a HoE too boost my ST, EB's and EG's to boost my Dex to over 7 mil.

Round 1:

Ember hit Sting with A Named Enforcer's Crossbow [209970]
Sting looks weaker!
Andy absorbs damage [86958]

Round 2:
Ember struck deep into Roxanne with A Named Enforcer's Crossbow [191720]
Ember struck deep into Roxanne with A Named Enforcer's Crossbow [170090]

He moved to the next minion because my Tank had no HP Left.
and I have a ton of these:
Sting hit Ember with Queen of Pain [815]

Mikel April 7 2008 6:42 PM EDT

Edit: He moved to the next minion because my Tank had no ST Left.

QBsutekh137 April 7 2008 6:59 PM EDT

We know, Mikel. :P I almost posted, but your point was pretty clear in context. Thanks for the clarification though... That STR drain is astounding. I really wish I had read Ranger's posts earlier so I could get on the "whiney" bandwagon. This is most definitely whine-worthy! *smile*

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] April 7 2008 7:35 PM EDT

sometimes jon's reluctance to introduce hard caps to the game is very frustrating. i believe that a certain percentage of all xp based skills/spells should be protected from reductions.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] April 8 2008 2:47 AM EDT

I agree with the fact that the exbow/axbow are unbalanced right now. The main reason it is unbalanced is that it reaches a point where the % drain alone will hit and go over 100%.

Looking at a way to fix the exbow, i would think that a solution would be to grant a fixed % reduction to str, and then a direct reduction.

The fixed amount would have to be reasonable, say around 33%. So if you are hit, no matter what you will lose at least 33% of your str.

The direct drain could work something like this. The X compared with the ratio of str and a hidden multiplier. So if the multiplier was 100, and you used a x4000 exbow. With the same str you would drain 400k str. It would take a bit to figure out exactly how high the multiplier needs to be in order to be effective but not overpowered.

With an axbow it could compare str to dex.

Using this, it is possible to gain a 100% drain in one hit, but in order to do so you need a far higher str.

QBRanger April 8 2008 7:38 AM EDT

Well since it is the 8th, and Jon asked for 1 more changeweek, nothing will be done for another 3 months.

So boost up your exbows and beat us non evasion/DB wearing tanks!

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 8 2008 7:41 AM EDT

Bugfix. ;)
This thread is closed to new posts. However, you are welcome to reference it from a new thread; link this with the html <a href="/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002Oy8">C'mon the exbow is a bit off, ya think?</a>