encumbrance causes more imbalance w/mage shield (in General)

adding insult to injury, since a mage shield can be taken to +40 with under a 6 million investment, it can be placed on a minion without much concern for encumbrance. is its rarity enough to counteract all of this?

190 Mage Shields in the game... 300-ish active users... nope, can't say they're all that rare at all.

SickOne.... How many of those 300 active users have an MgS.... Not all 190 MgS's are used...

how many of those 190 are on active characters tho? There's a plethera of ways for mages to increase their DD output, yet only MgS and AMF to take it away. and the MgS is a specialty shield to top it off.

It's more of a question of "if you really want one, you'll have no big trouble getting it".

Considering one was just destroyed last week, you should all be 1/191th bit happier. . .

All those who have owned a mage shield know that even combined with AMF, Endurance, AC, and whatever else you might think of. . .it's still the mages that are the hardest to beat. Well ,and those ROBF/evasion guys, but that's a whole 'nother equine carcass.

Speaking of AMF... it's not only a way to stop some spell damage, it's a way to harm the user back too.
Given equal amounts of spell level vs AMF level, and given equal HP on both sides, it's a perfect draw.
Add GA into the equation, have that damage spread over multiple minions with any form of damage reduction, and AMF wins hands down.

If anything, AMF is TOO useful compared to DD spells... the combination between damage reduction AND backlash damage is simply a "must have"... the samage reduction part would have been enough already... heck, if anything, boost AMF damage reduction to double its current effectiveness, but cut down on the backlash completely.

I'd rather have the backlash than more reduction :) The stacked protection is a pain in the [admin edit]: unpg to deal with, especially with ToE buffed the way it is. Try attacking someone with MGS + AMF + ToE, you'll kill yourself doing no damage in ranged even if your dd is really massive.

AMF takes a tremendous amount of exp to be effective. It is by no means that powerful. I have 1/5 of all my exp in AMF currently and against any mage with a decent sized spell, it is almost worthless. It is my combination of ToE/AMF/MgS that allow my tank to live to melee.

i tend to agree with glory on the amf, it does take a chunk of xp to be effective. this is in stark contrast to the mgs though which costs very little to get to +40 and effects encumbrance very little as well.

as i stated in my february thread on mgs, i see 3 ways to balance it:

1. give us a counter, equally cheap and easy to wear
2. give us a counterpart, a true mage shield, just as cheap and easy to wear
3. increase the cost curve, make it more representative of its effect and thus more encumbering. if we then need a nerf to dd that is fine as well.

"1. give us a counter, equally cheap and easy to wear
2. give us a counterpart, a true mage shield, just as cheap and easy to wear
3. increase the cost curve, make it more representative of its effect and thus more encumbering. if we then need a nerf to dd that is fine as well."

Point 1: The MgS is not easy to wear. Cheap certainly but not easy to wear.
One cannot use spells on such a minion. I cannot use it on my enchanters. I can use one on my wall, however. If I had a mage I could not use it. Take novice, he cannot use it. I say it is not easy to wear. Quite difficult especially if your a 1 minion character.

Point 2: A counterpart would have to include the same type of restrictions as the current MgS. That is nerf everything on the minion using it except for DD spells. Including nerfing skills. Also it should not be able to be worn with a tattoo.

Point 3: Agreed as stated before.

I love the just as EASY to wear comment. Like I said before it's a specialty shield. The only way I've ever used mine is as a MM Wall. Walls typically don't do much if any damage, and are hugely suseptible to Decay. How about this... Make it cost more to upgrade, but block some decay also. I personally see no problem where they are now. But just like everything else in CB, fix one thing, break another.

"Point 1: The MgS is not easy to wear. Cheap certainly but not easy to wear. "

Most MgS carriers are tanks or walls, like tanks or walls need spells other then a base prot? what about the DM or AMF against mages? MSK!

"Point 2: A counterpart would have to include the same type of restrictions as the current MgS."
As soon as jon introduces an item that protects 40% damage taken from melee or ranged for 6mil NW , you could hear the whine, complain and nag about it.

"Point 3" Make it indeed more expensive like double the cost at least.

Has anybody ever considered DBs? They're far easier to wear than mage shields, have no penalties whatsoever, and a +100 pair easily blocks 33% of all physical damage assuming you only get triple hit. Which is a pretty valid assumption.

DB is a horrible example to compare to MGS... Especially after encumberence is introduced. DB is hard to forge and costs a large amount of NW to be effective... If anything, DB illustrates how unbalanced MGS is.

JS,

Mages do not want to hear the DB discussion since it costs NW to buy/upgrade them. But that is an outstanding point. +100 DB's, which take 1 hit away, cost 18M CB2. Now if a tank would have hit 3 times that is 33% less damage. If a tank would have hit 2 times that is 50% less damage. Would have hit 4 times, 25% less damage. So make the upgrade of the MgS be +33 for 18M. Right now it is about +47 for 18M. And if you have a nice evasion and use DB's, you can make a tank miss completely, causing 100% damage reduction that round!

But wait. ANYONE can use DB's. Only non tattoo tanks and walls can use the MgS.

And heaven forbid a mage spend CB.

But back to the MgS.

yes all wearers are walls/tanks. However with 190 in play and about 300 characters active, given some MgS's are sitting around gaining value-there is 1 MgS actively used per 2 characters.

Given the fact that it only reduces the damage on the minion wearing it, and when that minion is the last one standing it gets fried or cooled easily, the MgS is a fine beast.

Perhaps it upgrade should be a bit more steep, but let us consider the DB analogy JS rightfully used.

As soon as the db's cost 6mil to get to +100, sure.

+100 is 15M NW. Not overly much. They don't neutralize all enchantments or spells either, and they have a much higher damage reduction cap.

You are not 100% honest when you say DB can be used by anyone. Consider the fact that tanks use DB better than mages due to inherent dex, DB is often not viable or optimal for mage teams. (training evasion and use EB would be better, even if it costs exp instead of nw, as Jon intended). The point is of course the cost disparity. Since encumberance is introduced, nw matters. If you need to disenchant your morg 20mil just to get your MGS back to 40%, that'd be a balancing act that provides choice and strategy. Right now, MGS requires no balancing. Shove one in and be done with with no encum hit.

But I guess we can all complain about something and hope something is done :) (not likely)

But then again,

To completely get 100% protection from DD spells, one cannot spend enough CB2 on the MgS.

To get to +50 is 32M and +60 is way way over 200 million cb2.

One can completely neutralize quite a few tanks with 200M CB2.

Just look at the exbow and DB's.

Not overly much? Besides +100 db's are not 100% effective against attacks

A +40 shield will reduce 40% and its effective 100% of the time. You always reduce 40%

But with +100 db's there is a huge chance that someone will hit you (like 75% of the time because of the dex) and because they don't provide AC the damage done will also be huge.

JS, the comparison between DB and MGS is a rather curious one, considering the fact that it'd be mostly tanks putting them on anyways. only familiar mages use DB, even then it's not junctioning over properly due to bug (unless it's already fixed, I'm not sure...). With the new encum limit, low level characters are not likely to put on DB anyways. Besides, it's not terribly difficult to maintain 100% CB at the low level and it matters little if you are at 400% score pr ratio as oppose to 300%. So wait, how is DB a counter argument for MGS being not overpowered? The setback of spell nullification is not a restriction for tanks, who don't use spell anyways. It's to prevent mages from using it.

"Right now, MGS requires no balancing. "

Of course it does.

I can only be used on a tank or wall. When all the other minions in a party die, the MgS wearing minion cannot live through a concentrated DD blast.

I know, when I was fighting Conundrum my tank, as the last minion alive, with a TOE (7+ million level), a 24 protection and a +47 MgS took over 1M damage a round.

The trick for a mage is to get to the point where s/he faces only the MgS minion in battle.

This is nothing like the exbow where the battle is over in round 1 if it scratches you.

I'm not arguing that MGS's effect is overpowered. It's only when stacked together that it really hurts dd. What I meant is at 6mil NW, you don't have to make a choice about putting it on and worry about encum limit too much. For item of such power, that is not right. Not to mention MGS also have a rather small PR weighting... There is no point pointing out that only tank and wall can wear one. That means mages can't wear one. It's not like we are divided up to two camps here and mages only fight tanks.

There is no point bringing Exbow into the discussion. That'll be settled in another thread. I think we agree that MGS should take a hit in upgrade curve to match its power and force some choices in term of encumberence.

Using Conundrum to compare relative Strength of mages vs. an item was like people trying to say "Mikel still hits me in round 4, so Evasion is fin and overcomable..."

You are looking at one EXTREME team there :P try using lesser DDs like Oxcha, or LA for your examples and see if they remain as extreme?

Ulord and Henk.

One has to look at the big picture when looking at DBs.

Right now the cost of DB in NW can be high. My +202 DBs are about 88M. Do I disenchant them? Do I use them and lower my MH? Do I use them and lower other items? A tough choice.

But looking at DBs one has to look at the total potential damage per round from a tank.

+100 DBs cost 15M (not 18M as I thought)

Let us say I hit you 3 times for 1M each = 3 M that round.

If you have +100 DBs, NW 15M, you will take 2 hits = 2M that round. Perhaps a bit more then 1M a hit due to lower AC.

Which is a 33% drop in damage.

For 15M CB2.

While tanks often get multiple hits which vary from battle to battle and often round to round, the benefit of +100 DBs are very hard to define, but it is still there.

The DBs can further be magnified by evasion and EC, much like the MgS can be from AMF. The ToE lowers both magic and physical damage so I will say its a wash, as does protection.

So while we see that the MgS all the time lowers damage-40% for 6M (really 11M as a base MgS is now 5M), DB's lower damage also.

Both give no AC and both cost NW to use.

However, the DB's can be used by any minion, while the MgS has significant restrictions to its use.

Also, on my tank now you will see a MS. The + of the MS is far better for me vs magic then the MgS. So not all tanks need/use the MgS. It is a very specialize items. Very rare also.

Joe's Fireball hit The Grid [1020676], Mary Frances Boyd [1470577], Dave [774385], Hubbell Man's familiar [1278479], Hubbell Man [804740]

Vs Hubbell with a +47 MgS on my tank/TOE on enchanter and AMF of .28 or so vs him.

When there is 1 minion left, the MgS, even with a TOE, does not do it all.

Sry amf was .40 and my AMF was neutered.

Divide his damage by about 40%, still 5-600k a round.

Looking through the top 40 players, you'll hardly find DB being used by mages.. Only familiar mages and only if junction works properly with DB. So DB is hardly usable by everyone... Anyhow, as you said yourself in the first post, MGS needs to cost more to upgrade. Cost of base doesn't even matter because base cost is not included in encum limit. I'm not particularly concerned about a nerf in effectiveness, just cost. Funny how we make tons of post agreeing :)

Haven't I already explained that it's only 40% versus MM or on a Single minion?

On a four minion team... 40%/4 = 10% which is nothing. How many people have more than one Mage shield anyways despite how hard they are to fit into a strategy?

Well with evasion being as it used to be, EBs were the obvious choice over DBs at medium to high levels.

In fact Talion did not need my DBs to help him once his evasion was close to 120.

Now, with the lowering of its effect, perhaps DBs on mages will come into vogue again.

I have two mage shields on my team currently. :P

"Looking through the top 40 players, you'll hardly find DB being used by mages.. Only familiar mages and only if junction works properly with DB. So DB is hardly usable by everyone..."

Just because they choose not to use them, does not mean they are unusable.

And remember guys, the top 3% of people is hardly the 'average Joe'.

Rubik's Cube:

Do realize that MGS is typically used on the damage dealer or wall. The rest of the minions are simply kill slots and act to diffuse magic damage anyways. Now stack on ToE, AMF and damage spread, the most vital minions will be hardly touched until the kill slots are gone, buying enough time to dish out the damage as intended. This is stretched even longer if you consider wall and PL, also using MGS often enough. So your simple arithmetics is nonsensical.

Ranger:

It's true that evasion took a good nerfing (about time). I still think the defensive dex is important enough to not forego it for DB though and using both feels rather unsatisfactory (I don't like the way they stack...). Getting hit twice from dex is one too many to survive for me. I'll stick to evasion frankly. Perhaps I'll slap on a big exbow to use up the encumberence :P

Tyriel:

I should probably modify that to characters with 2mil+ score. Since the recent ncb change, this pool is prolly bigger than 40. Any lower and you see a lot of skew due to inactive characters. To be frank, even the somewhat inept strategy can make it to close to 2mil score. Personally, playing a mage, I don't see myself using DB over evasion because of the reason in my last post. It'd be nice to have a pair on my familiar assuming junction is fixed..

Junction and DB's have been fixed.

awesome :D Thanks Ranger.. Now I wish I bought that big pair that was on sale :(

Rubik's Cube:
Do realize that MGS is typically used on the damage dealer or wall. The rest of the minions are simply kill slots and act to diffuse magic damage anyways. Now stack on ToE, AMF and damage spread, the most vital minions will be hardly touched until the kill slots are gone, buying enough time to dish out the damage as intended. This is stretched even longer if you consider wall and PL, also using MGS often enough. So your simple arithmetics is nonsensical.



Not true for all teams?

If it's used on a wall, then there must be another damage dealer.. spread damage, divide it by two.

Any team with PL does not use kill slots.

Endurance teams try to keep their people all alive to maximize endurance to the spread, nothing to do with ToE.

ToA teams can't use the mage shield on their tank.

Mage teams can't use the mage shield on their damage dealer.

RoBf teams have a better for of magic damage reduction.. which happens to keep more of the team alive prolonging spread damage - which as I describe the mage shield doesn't do much for.

Familiars.. to use a mage shield they need at least another minion besides a familiar - spread.

Any other tattoos people use?

I think it's actually a very good assumption. Only teams that you are talking about are the TSA, Mage shield, etc. tanks with only enchanters, which I admit exist, but they aren't everything.

That means my assumption works on all teams except for the last type.. now what is wrong with that? As long as you aren't using MM the Mage shield is not a big deal.

Endurance teams try to keep their people all alive to maximize endurance to the spread, nothing to do with ToE.

Sorry that should read: nothing to do with the Mage shield.

Sorry for the triple post, but I forgot my final point.. there already is an equivalent available to tanks, and that is AC.

i have not read 100% of all of the replies, but from skimming i will just state this: if the mgs is not overpowered for the investment, then no one should mind a physical damage counterpart that does the same 40 percent damage reduction for under 6m investment with the same exact limitations.

if you think that would be a bit much then you should probably not argue with increasing the cost curve of the mgs so that it is at least not so much of a no-brainer in situations where it can be used as it adds no real encumbrance issue in its current state.

MudBug The Redeemer

Just wanted to point out that AMF and MgS are -not- the only way to reduce it

There's also ToE, EH, and all AC gears

plus MsK to help out those who are archers


I'm not getting involved in the argument, just keeping the facts straight

Protection too, forgot that, but it's almost a negligible factor

To Rubik's cube:

I'm not one to argue that MGS needs any nerfing other than the increase in cost to make it significant in encumbrance consideration, but I strongly disagree that it is "only" reducing magic damage by 10% for "most" situations as you claimed. MGS is not a trivial piece of equipment.

First of all, let's focus on teams that actually uses a MGS in this discussion. There is no point bringing up the ToA team and the fireball team that won't use MGS. That's like saying evasion is not overpowered just because novice's team can't use it.

Typically speaking, MGS is either used on a key tank or on walls. Either way, it's unlikely to see MGS and familiar to be used on the same setup. ToE is typically more suitable and tanks need to be focused and big. So we are dealing with teams with one damage source. It is likely that the survival of the key damage dealer leads to victory, and all other team simply supplements that one minion. So for the key minion, a 4 minion spread means he'll only take 25% damage from spread fire. That should not be taken as granted. With 2 minions left, that's 50% damage reduction in spread fire.

If the MGS is put on a wall, it is typically the backwall that uses it. Front wall uses heavy AC to reduce weapon damage. Backwall is built specifically to counter MM, and it does that at 100% effectiveness. A standing wall provides the key damage dealer at least 50% damage spread for the extra rounds of survival caused by MGS against FB and CoC. This is only trivial if the key damage dealer tends to die before the rear wall without MGS on the wall. Again, rear wall is specialized in dealing with MM in the first place anyways.

If the MGS is put on main damage dealer, ALL magic damage, spread or not, is reduced by by 40% at ALL time. That means, literally 40% more survivability.

When MGS is placed on a PL wall, a wall technically absorbs all damage taken by the team until it dies. But whatever direct magic blow it'll receive is reduced by 40%. That 40% counts toward extra HP it can absorb for other minions, ie the main damage dealer.

Now consider that key damage dealer, wall or PL minion typically have a vast majority of HP in a team, the MGS has a non trivial impact.

Imagine a team with two MGS, one on the key damage dealer and one on the wall. Against spread damage, the key damage dealer gets 50% damage reduction for 40% longer. That 50% damage is again reduced by 40% resulting in only taking 30% of effective damage.

Why is ToE relevant in this discussion? Because ToE is a threshold based item. Magic damage that breaks the ToE reduction barrier severely reduces its effectiveness. By maintaining a minimum 50% damage spread longer or by directly reducing magic damage against the key damage dealer or both, MGS is one of the many pieces that holds mage damage low enough for further reduction from ToE.

"i have not read 100% of all of the replies, but from skimming i will just state this: if the mgs is not overpowered for the investment, then no one should mind a physical damage counterpart that does the same 40 percent damage reduction for under 6m investment with the same exact limitations."]

Almost by definition the counterpart for mages would not have the exact same limitations.

The MgS is a tank mostly item to combat magic.

The counterpart will be a mage item to combat physical.

Yes a MgS can be used mage---mage and the counterpart physical--physical.

If it had the exact same characteristics a mage could not use it.

I hope you think that for a physical damage counterpart it has to allow DD spells but in return nerf skills.

Rarity is never a reason to think there is balance.

MgS simply needs to be more expensive to upgrade, with a reasonable "max" being around 33% instead of 50%.

People saying it is hard to wear... What a joke. Walls are part of the game. It is extremely easy. The only choice is massive AC wall vs mage-buster wall. Hell, some walls do both well. The reason? The layering. ToE/PL/TSA/AC/AMF... I believe GL has said just move the MgS to last in the list of damage reduction and that would help (and I agree). Not sure where it is now. But when you knock 40+ percent out of a 1.5 million damage land, that lets the rest of the layers mop up the damage like bread on soup remnants.

Sut,

Can you use a MgS?

Can NWO? Can novice?

What about Beee? or even Soxjr?

Using a MgS is not as simple as buying one and sticking it on a minion. You have to plan on the way to use it. Certainly it can be used on a wall. But then you have 1 minion doing nothing but being a wall.

But I do agree the upgrade curve, especially in the less then 6M range needs to be lowered.

And if DD then needs tweaking so be it.

MgS could get a buff at an increased cost. For example, make it's lower-level upgrades cost about as much as the slightly higher ones do now, but make the curve more forgicing... essentially enables steady upgrades up to +50 or so before points start costing multiple millions each, but it makes a MgS's encumbrance effect a bit more reasonable...

Hypothetical example of upgrade costs could be like 250k from +0 to +1, 1m from +34 to +35, 2m from +51 to +52... Giving them the ability to get up to +70 or higher may seem a bit overpowered, but considering the 150m (again, hypothetical) net worth it would take to get there, the minion wouldn't have room for much else if anything :P

"I believe GL has said just move the MgS to last in the list of damage reduction and that would help (and I agree)."

Nah, that was for the RBF, and it was to the front. ;)

Last doesn't really matter for the MGS, as all (bar the silly RBF and the tiny reduction direct AC will have here) the other reductions are percentage based. Before or after AMF/AC/Prot won't really matter.

;)

Ranger, would you be happy with a Power Shield that reduced physical damage by 1% per +, and set STR, DEX and Skills of the wearer to zero?

Of course, then we'd need a party wide Evasion, so they could take advantage of it like a MGS wearer does for AMF...

EC.

I have to say one thing about this. Natural AC is something that works only against physical damage.

Even on a mage, you wear stuff like a CoI, EB, MCM, and maybe a buckler. All of those equips give some natural ac. Thats 11.55% reduction against physical attacks for a massive $50,753 and virtually no pr. Also no drawbacks because they are things that you would wear normally.

You want to have more reduction against physical damage? No one ever said you had to wear AG or NS. Or you could wear a MS instead of a buckler. It has a little higher penalties but you get 9 more AC against physical damage right off the bat, and the upgrade curve is even cheaper. Lose a bit of bonus to your DD for more protection. Its a choice you can make.

QBGentlemanLoser, 7:20 PM EDT


I think that'd be a happy little shield for the walls and other damage reduction layers to stack with. :D

Nem does have a point as well.

But... I have advocated in numerous past threads that all mage items should grant AC. As far back as to when Koy was a mage. And I have not changed my thinking since going tank. Mages should have AC from their items.

However the idea behind it was to even out mages and tank with respect to AC. My best guess. I doubt Jon will ever change it to make mage armor give AC. That balances it vs tanks.

Now:
"Ranger, would you be happy with a Power Shield that reduced physical damage by 1% per +, and set STR, DEX and Skills of the wearer to zero? "

That would be a good counter shield. However your comment about party wide evasion and subject to AMF is confusing me.

While the MgS wear gets plenty of benefit from AMF, the "new shield" wearer can get plenty benefit from EC and ENC overload.

Layers of physical damage reduction now to take into place.

"First of all, let's focus on teams that actually uses a MGS in this discussion. "

The entire point is that it is not easy to use.

"When MGS is placed on a PL wall, a wall technically absorbs all damage taken by the team until it dies. But whatever direct magic blow it'll receive is reduced by 40%. That 40% counts toward extra HP it can absorb for other minions, ie the main damage dealer. "

Not a realistic way of looking at the problem. Still only the damage done directly to said minion is reduced by 40%. Any PL still does the same damage it would do under PL.

"If the MGS is put on a wall, it is typically the backwall that uses it. Front wall uses heavy AC to reduce weapon damage. Backwall is built specifically to counter MM, and it does that at 100% effectiveness."

I already said it was good for MM. I consider that a counter.

"Imagine a team with two MGS"

Be realistic. I can think of maybe two or three teams with two mage shields. And remember that's two people that can't be mages or enchanters. So I guess you were thinking a Mage wall and a tank? Sounds like a pretty focused team to me.

"MGS is one of the many pieces that holds mage damage low enough for further reduction from ToE."

Yes, it is good on a ToE team, but it's still only helping one minion survive, not all of them.



For all of you saying that it's unequal because 6 mil networth negates 40%, well each set below costs about 7 mil simply to make calculations easier. I posted this in a previous thread.

The equivalent to the Mage shield - AC

A 2007 CB T-shirt [1] 1,000
A Adamantite Cuirass [40] (+51) 1,060,424
A Shadow Cloak [11] (+20) 1,238,978
A Pair of Chain Mail Leggings [18] (+34) 1,145,074
A Helm of Durin [9] (+20) 1,015,221
A Mithril Shield [20] (+36) 1,087,276
An Amulet of AC [0] (+17) 1,209,030
A Pair of Tulka's Gauntlets [6] (+15) 860,374

Total AC: 298

Cost: About 7 Mil
% reduction to physical - 62.56%
Penalties - Can't use on a Mage or Enchanter (effectively) (just like the Mage shield?) or with a tattoo

Want to use it on a mage? Swap the AC for an MC and the SC for a CoI and the TGs for AGs

A Cloak of the Istari [0] (+11) 1,101,631
A Mithril Cuirass [35] (+45) 959,997
A Pair or Altar's Gloves [0] (+11) 809,692

For a total of 235 AC
A 49.35 percent reduction in physical damage
A 3 percent penalty to Magic

"For all of you saying that it's unequal because 6 mil networth negates 40%, well each set below costs about 7 mil simply to make calculations easier. I posted this in a previous thread. "

well while that is all good and correct, people using the mage shield can also take advantage of ac as well. so what exactly is the point?

once again, if it is reasonable and fine then make a physical damage reduction counterpart. make it equally difficult, or easy (depending on your point of view) to equip, and make it work on the same cost curve. it would probably be easier, and would avoid the complaints, to just increase the cost curve on the mgs though.

if however, it is a balancing factor with dd, then i say do the above and nerf dd damage levels.

well there is something that negates all physical damage... its called evasion... although its been nerfed somewhat its still useful

Tank shield, lol
With a tank shield comes Counterspell, a skill that gives chance to avoid DD spells

Ranger, I don't follow. Everyone being able to use an MgS does not negate its lopsided nature.

It only stops DD. That's bad for mages. I don't really care who wears it.

Sure, I could wear one. I'm not talking about it from that front. I'm a mage. Obviously. And I have never been lamenting how to wear one. I am not sure I have seen a more perfectly accurate miss of the point.

Elaborate?

perhaps we are looking at it from the wrong direction?

just think of the amount of AC you could get from 6mill NW... and tell me that with that amount of NW in wall armor you can negate physical damage of say 40% ?

all im saying is... the MGS curve should probably be changed (because of the introduction of ENC) if it isnt change it is just a disaster waiting to happen... (reference to 477 AC)

say freed( i aint targetting you :) just using you for example) decides to make a +96 mage sheild... and then just chucks it on the last minion in his team.. making it invunerable to magic... and then he trains AMF on another minion... and owns all mages ?

There's also ToE, EH, and all AC gears

yea, but how often are all those factors put into practice all at the same time?

kinda the reason why i only take AC into account

someone figure out how much (best) ac could come out of the top ac gears in the game with 6mil... i'm interested, but too lazy.

I did that exactly 6 posts ago, except with 7 mil. Not to mention that I don't think I optimized it perfectly, I just made each item have a NW of 1 mil.

"people using the mage shield can also take advantage of ac as well. so what exactly is the point?"

They can take advantage of much less AC, since the Mage shield doesn't give AC.

"Ranger, I don't follow. Everyone being able to use an MgS does not negate its lopsided nature.

It only stops DD. That's bad for mages. I don't really care who wears it.

Sure, I could wear one. I'm not talking about it from that front. I'm a mage. Obviously. And I have never been lamenting how to wear one. I am not sure I have seen a more perfectly accurate miss of the point.

Elaborate?"

AC is so much more effective on tanks.. that's bad for tanks.. I don't follow your logic. Also, Ranger's point is that currently you can't wear one because you have three enchanters and one mage.

I dunno, are you saying that Mage shield is balance cause you can easily do the same effect with 7 pieces of armor?

Well why not just wear the mage shield and put on more AC? It'll still have tons of AC to reduce physical damage and will pretty much destroy magic damage. That's a pretty good deal.

Yes not everyone can wear one, but many can. Every team with a PL battery can wear a mage shield, stick it in the back and that's a very good deal for low NW. Tanks can wear MgS. The only people that can't are mages and enchanters.

Sut is simply pointing out that the ability to wear one doesn't make it any less powerful. Because Sut doesn't need to wear a MgS doesn't mean it's balanced. It simply means that Sut chooses not to wear one.

let me rephrase this... which sheild can give 40% damage reduction base on AC...

mage shield is only good vs mages. A wasted slot against tank. Assuming people adjusts as mages get pwned by Mage Shield (MGS for short), less mage teams will be around, making MGS a bigger waste, and fall out of favour. As teams stop using MGS, mages become viable again.

Of course, this is assuming MGS cannot be just slapped on a minion as a "back-up" just in case plan. which is quiet true, I think.

Ok, I ran some numbers with creating walls. One is a mage wall with a +40 mgs, and the other is a physical wall with an equivalent size MS, which is +48

Using some rather cheap Wall equips the same exact equips just switching shields will give this.

Example 1
Mage Wall: NW:$20,298,440
AC 40(+70) $4,295,148
SC 11(+22) $2,001,280
CML 18(+40) $2,888,275
TG 6(+17) $1,970,755
HoD 9(+20) $1,804,026
AoAC 0(+18) $1,664,312
MgS 0(+40) $5,674,644

AC=271 Physical Damage Reduction: 56.91% Magic Damage reduction: 63.562%

Wall: NW:$20,474,132 (Note: NW difference is easily fixed by lowering the MS by 1 or 2 points and putting that into the AC)
AC 40(+70) $4,295,148
SC 11(+22) $2,001,280
CML 18(+40) $2,888,275
TG 6(+17) $1,970,755
HoD 9(+20) $1,804,026
AoAC 0(+18) $1,664,312
MS 20(+48) $5,850,336
AC=339 Physical Damage reduction: 71.19% Magic Damage reduction: 49.35%

Example 2
Mage Wall: NW:$39,581,775
AC 40(+86) $14,206,488
SC 11(+25) $4,111,244
CML 18(+45) $6,244,971
TG 6(+18) $2,982,926
HoD 9(+22) $3,206,747
AoAC 0(+20) $3,154,755
MgS 0(+40) $5,674,644
AC=300 Physical Damage Reduction= 63% Magic Damage Reduction=66.616%

Wall: NW:$39,757,467 (NW difference can be fixed easily again by taking a point from AC and TG, and adding to MS)
AC 40(+86) $14,206,488
SC 11(+25) $4,111,244
CML 18(+45) $6,244,971
TG 6(+18) $2,982,926
HoD 9(+22) $3,206,747
AoAC 0(+20) $3,154,755
MS 20(+48) $5,850,336
AC=368 Physical Damage reduction=77.28% Magic Damage Reduction=55.44%

Looking at these wall builds, and seeing that they are both designed to reduce damage as much as possible it is quite apparent that have rather similar effects on their counterparts. In fact, you might consider the MS better overall, as the penalties are far less.

Looking at the two types of walls, they are rather balanced in reducing the amount of damage towards their targets. If anything physical damage is more easily reduced.

why do you insist on including all the other items... just compare between MGS and MS... the difference is painfully obvious... in terms of NW and reduction

it's because of stacking, the more AC you have the less effective percentages MgS works with. Technically after a point MS actually gives more reduction to magic, but at that point, we're talking freed status...

Nem's point is that in the large scale investment, MgS looses it's cost effectiveness

so pray tell :) which would result in more NW... a +100 MGS or a full armor set with +477?

+477 by a longshot is cheaper :P, because you get AC for Naming bonuses, and well, look at Freed? :P

MgS would take more than the total NW of CB to FORGE, not to mention several hundred years...

But anyway, that's besides the point because neither set should exist, because of Encumbrance. And if it did, Jon would do something about it.

However what kind of bothers me in this discussion is how we're comparing the MgS, ONE piece of armor, to an entire wall set and wondering which is better. And then some people say, that equipping a MgS limits one drastically, well wall equips do as well don't they?

i said +477 not 477 ;) theres a difference... either way... yes... we should be comparing 1 item to 1 item... such as 1 MGS to 1 MS... and comparing NW to NW...

well, no. +1 in MS is exactly the same as a +1 in AC or any other armor, while Mage Shield's effect is unique. Assuming I have a base Wall set, except MS (which is slightly bigger like +40), comparing MS +40 with a equivalent Mage Shield doesn't mean much, because I can get the same effect with less NW.

So pretty much I am getting, is that MgS is better than MS for low NW, and for huge NW, MS is almost as good as MgS in terms of magical damage.

I'll give you that MS is better than MgS for physical damage, but you have to take in account:

What is else is that minion wearing? Is he only wearing a MS? If so what are you thinking? If he is your main damage dealer, he should be in the back wearing a MgS.

Is he an enchanter or mage? If so, wear that MS, but you should really be worrying about dodging and avoiding physical damage rather than surviving them.

MgS seems like a better deal most the time. Yes, not all the time, but if you can fit it in your strat, it really goes a long way for little.

the thing is... because of ENC ... we realised that is the NW of the mage shield doesnt really reflect its "power" as compared to an MS with the same NW

yeah, the point is at low NW, MgS is extremely cost efficient. It doesn't even need to be +40. At a lower scale, it blows the MS out of the water.

In fact, MgS, seems to blow most equips out of the water. In terms of damage reduction, it does so much for very little.

Well, if you think you can win by pumping all your nw into a mgs and training just hp. Be my guest. At $88,213,405 for a +56 and at least 16 mil more for the next point...

An AC set is more effective with more items. A mage shield is not as much. Both have similar restrictions. Sure you can get maybe +100 AC? on a mage shield minion, but that's only an extra 25% reduction, and that's not additive. .75*.6 = .45 so 55% if you include plus AC items or so. In other words, I think it's still a comparable percentage, with comparable restrictions. Comparing to just an MS isn't really fair.

try this out ;)
with a +100 MGS

1st minion base decay/AMF
NSC/corn
2nd minion MGS
say bb to mages?

only 25%? Even if it adds less, it still adds a great deal to the wall. But anyway, sticking to the point, with low encumbrance, MgS is a great deal, cost wise. It could use a bit of reworking.

Lostling, I was thinking more along the lines of

1st minion: all EC, RoBF

2nd Minion: Evasion, MgS

Mages stale. Tanks loose.

or

1st minion small AMF, ToA tank, AoI, Exbow?

2nd Minion Evasion, MgS

I've got more O.o all involve using the MgS abuse to fill up holes in a strat.

use 4 minions... chuck MGS on a worthless char and ignore that character completely... get 1 minion fully loaded with AMF... enuff backlash there to kill any mage by the end of 4 rounds and then 1 evasion wall maybe? either way you would pwn all mage teams...

did lostling said +100 MgS? I know you are rich CB dollar-wise, but not THAT rich.

however, I am convinced that RoBF+Evasion+Mgs (or does MgS cancel evasion?) with EC backup would kill tank+stale mages the same size, but say a dedicated FB mage with similar to 10-20% bigger MPR can break though.

ENC would cripple any evasion on any minon with +100 MGS lol

why do we even care? +100 MgS is just a funny concept... it doesn't even add to the discussion

Another way of answering Ranger's question would be this:

Anyone can also wield a large exbow and leech all the strength off someone else.

So, I guess it is balanced then? If so, why the big thread about the exbow draining too much.

Yes, I could wear am MgS by switching up a bunch of things on my team. I could turn one of the enchanters into a wall quite easily. The reasons I don't so are myriad, but the main bullet points would be:

-- I don't want to invest a lot of cash in wall gear, not even 6 million on an MgS.
-- I'm lazy and don't feel like changing things.
-- A wall does not really fit with the point of my team (being a DE-buster).
-- I think walls are morally reprehensible (yes, I do love hyperbole). I can't stand them. They are boring and bad for the game, in my humble opinion (and I have always thought so, and have never used a wall in five years of playing CB, so I'm consistent, if nothing else *smile*).

So, I still am not sure I understand what Ranger is asking. I could wear an MgS, or I can choose not too (just like anyone with a multi-minion team, which is most everyone).

Rarity is not a good balancer for the MgS, not is an inability to wear it. But by all means, keep the excuses on why the MgS needs to exist in the game (and is fair) coming! (and remember, it didn't used to exist and tanks got on just fine! Keep that in mind when when you insist the MgS is absolutely essential!)

"Rarity is not a good balancer for the MgS, not is an inability to wear it."

I suspect the not should be nor in that sentence.

If so, I would agree with the first part and disagree with the 2nd.

In CB rarity is a concept. With the NUB cash out there, if one really want to spend money, one can get a MgS. Something like the CB T-Shirt is another thing.

However, the restrictions on its use is a fine balancer.

What if the MgS could be used by anyone regardless of spells they have? Then it would be quite the overpowered item, as AOE DD spells would never get to the 1 minion point.

However no, with the MgS as it is, one can get to the 1 minion point in a battle if you can live long enough.

I do 100% agree the upgrade curve is too low.

My Q above is that the MgS is not useable by all characters. Sut, you even stated you are a DE buster character. So the MgS is not usable by Hubbell. A lot of other characters cannot use it for the same type reasons.

I don't see how encumbrance causes MORE unbalance with the mage shield, unless there are people out there who have had to disenchant some of their mage gear to stay unemcumbered. Anyone had to do that?

well rd, it used to just be cheap to block a whopping 40 percent damage. now it is cheap, and due to that, easy to equip as far as encumbrance is concerned. in effect, there won't be many teams out there that have to choose the mgs or something else, encumbrance wise....or cost wise for that matter. likewise, i doubt anyone would have to disenchant something else to make room for the mgs on their team.

in summation, it has always been a no brainer, if it worked at all with your set up, due to the cost. now, due to that, it is also as much a no brainer in its effect on encumbrance. yes the two things are tied together which is why i stated that it adds insult to injury.

3/4ths
If you include other AC items,

1. It'll cost more - not comparable
2. The percentage is still less than the physical reduction of an AC Wall

Okay, just to test, why doesn't everyone who uses a Mage shield unequip it and tell us how many people you lose off your favorites list.

Ranger, maybe a technicality, but there is a difference (in my eyes) between "cannot" and "will not". I CAN use an MgS, as in, "I am able to". It just isn't a part of my strategy. My strategy isn't a damage-reduction one (i.e. I have no wall).

For anyone with the remotest damage reduction strategy, the MgS is viable both in concept and slot availability.

So, anyone CAN use an MgS, they simply need to embrace the tactic of damage reduction. If a team does not embrace said topic, they simply wouldn't WANT to use an MgS.

That is my opinion, and we can cordially agree to disagree, especially since we are largely on the same page about changing the MgS's upgrade curve -- that would go a long way toward pacifying me, possible all the way (depending on how much the curve were changed).

Sut,

I do see your point. It is, after all, a choice you make not to use it. But you can if you wanted to with some changing of the strategy.

I do hope Jon changes the upgrade curve. Perhaps making +33 the top of reasonable upgrade.

If the upgrade curve does get changed I will just have to drop my mgs off my team... I already don't have the choice of using either MS or MGS due to my over encumbrance from using both my melee weapon and Ranged weapon... so it will just penalize the 4 minion teams with spread experience.... if thats what people want to do then do it... limit my, among other people's, choices.

so draco, are you saying you are for giving us a counter or counterpart since you are against increasing the cost? or are you actually saying you like the fact that direct damage can be reduced by 40% for less than 6 million with no physical damage counter/counterpart?

You give me a physical shield and with my strat it will be stalemate city with anyone that currently beats me... then everyone will change to Robf and I will get a sour taste in my mouth because Robf is still reduced by physical ac ^_^

thats exactly the reason why i suggested combining all the enc... but yea doesnt really matter to me

Will someone explain to me why this is needed? It's so redundant.

you might wana explain what is so redundant :) but yea im at work and im sooooo bored AND i cant get on chat so yep