My thoughts on the new changes (in General)


QBRanger April 7 2008 10:16 AM EDT

Initially I thought there were too harsh.

However, after a few days of evaluation, I really like the changes.

It gives us the "weapon/item" cap most of us wanted. Instead of a hard cap, it is a soft cap with penalties for overusage.

Now characters, both tanks and less so mages, have to evaluate what items they want to use. Less of a NW fest.

I do hope the economy stabilizes after all the initial disenchantments. I suspect it will.

However there are a few things further I would like to see:

1) HP from AS count somehow towards ENC; perhaps not 1:1 but perhaps 1/2 as much. To make ROS teams viable.

2) No item should do what the exbow does. It was less of a problem before, but now with ENC, it is quite difficult to equip all the items one needs AND be able to use DB's high enough to make sure you are not hit 1 time for 1 damage. Like I stated before, imagine a new xbow, the magebow, that with 1 hit at x4k took any DD spell down to negatives. Heck, get rid of the MsB and give me that one. While EC can do something equivalent, it is MPR based which is fixed per character. NW is not.

3) The TOE aura has to be lowered about 10%.

4) The upgrade curve on the MgS has to be higher.

5) Melee round evasion has to be lowered. The evasion/RBF strategy is still quite viable. Perhaps a decaying evasion 5% per round or so.

6) Mage armors should give AC. I understand why they do not, equalizing the fact the base damage gives physical and non magical damage. But I still believe they should grant AC.

But overall, very impressive changes!!

lostling April 7 2008 10:18 AM EDT

eww decaying evasion... why do you insist on making evasion worthless in long battles?

Ancient Anubis April 7 2008 10:23 AM EDT

can i just add that i would like to c verefix's weapon allowance and vpr calculator added into the cb script like the auto next on the opponents, i think many people find it useful and valuable to have on the training page.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] April 7 2008 10:23 AM EDT

that is a pretty comprehensive list. i do agree that decaying evasion effect is probably a road we don't want to start going down. strength and dex would fit into a decaying model just too well and i tend to think our xp should be a little more protected. there are other good ways to deal with evasion in melee if it proves to be too much.

i would be more willing to accept decaying effects from items rather than xp though.

Ulord[NK] April 7 2008 10:23 AM EDT

Well put Ranger. Call it self interest but I especially agree with 3), 4), 5).

I want to see the current RoBF strategy gone. I think the single minion RoBF is the worst thing that happened to this game. It's boring, demands little choices and requires the equivalent thinking skill of a chimp. ToE is wayyy too strong. Anyhow, well said :)

Wasp [Demon Forging] April 7 2008 10:48 AM EDT

Mages need that bit of AC that the armour gives. I don't see why it was stopped in the first place.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 7 2008 12:00 PM EDT

"2) No item should do what the exbow does."

No mention of the AXBow there? Is it not also as broken as the EXBow? ;)

Kefeck April 7 2008 12:01 PM EDT

I just realized ranger is kind of a complainer.

Gandalf April 7 2008 12:11 PM EDT

Ranger is not a complainer.... its his opinions on the game as he was at the top of the game most of the time alot of people respect his views... also alot dont.

He tries give hard evidence to his suggestions as to why things are too good/need making better.

Your not a complainer Ranger just a person who gives great idea to make CB a more balanced game.

Rock on Ranger!!

Lord Bob April 7 2008 12:14 PM EDT

I agree with everything except 4. I especially agree with 2, 5 and 6.

QBRanger April 7 2008 12:19 PM EDT

yes GL, that includes the axbow.

Cube April 7 2008 12:34 PM EDT

1) HP from AS count somehow towards ENC; perhaps not 1:1 but perhaps 1/2 as much. To make ROS teams viable.

Yes, proportional to the effect

2) No item should do what the exbow does. It was less of a problem before, but now with ENC, it is quite difficult to equip all the items one needs AND be able to use DB's high enough to make sure you are not hit 1 time for 1 damage. Like I stated before, imagine a new xbow, the magebow, that with 1 hit at x4k took any DD spell down to negatives. Heck, get rid of the MsB and give me that one. While EC can do something equivalent, it is MPR based which is fixed per character. NW is not.

Yes, but give them something to compensate, more damage?

3) The TOE aura has to be lowered about 10%.

Maybe in ranged, not in melee.

4) The upgrade curve on the MgS has to be higher.

If everyone really thinks it has to be.. not too much higher. Possibly about the same cost as that percentage of mage damage would take with all wall gear.

5) Melee round evasion has to be lowered. The evasion/RBF strategy is still quite viable. Perhaps a decaying evasion 5% per round or so.

Eh, I'm indifferent, either way.

6) Mage armors should give AC. I understand why they do not, equalizing the fact the base damage gives physical and non magical damage. But I still believe they should grant AC.

This would help my strat tremendously.. But I don't really think it's necessary.

QBRanger April 7 2008 1:35 PM EDT

I would have little problem making the base on exbows and axboiws 5, however, I am not asking for all the strength drain to be removed.

Just make it subject to other factors rather then straight x on the weapon and attackers PRE battle strength. With x4000 and 1.4M strength able to do 100% in 1 hit.

But that discussion is for the other thread.

QBRanger April 7 2008 3:45 PM EDT

"I just realized ranger is kind of a complainer."

You just NOW realized this? My god man, where have you been all this time :)

Perhaps I am, but I do try to do what I feel is best for the game as a whole. Unfortunately I can only comment on things that I see when I play. Which right now is tank stuff.

I do think with the new missile changes, the TOE got an unwarranted buff. 40% less damage makes it more likely that the TOE will be able to lower all the magic damage. Hence the 10% lowering I suggested.

But thanks for your wonderful insight into this post. And your points about whether or not the changes are good/bad/indifferent for the game!

chuck1234 April 7 2008 3:52 PM EDT

For all those who continue to crib about the single RoBF, here's my observation:

The single most debilitating feature of the RoBF is the lack of inter-changeability with the RoE. While one cannot decipher how much of a drag that is from theory, after changing over to a ToE [overpowered?!] I have found out that the great feature in this re-inking has been the facility to use the RoE.

Given the 40-44 percent extra XP for the RoE wearer in a two minion setup, you are fighting on semi-bonus XP time all the time [while losing only a few characters in your regular fight-list]. I think people who carp about the RoBF should take this factor into account.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] April 7 2008 3:57 PM EDT

chuck that was one of my points from when the robf first was changed from worthless to uber. i think only those that have used it realize just what a hindrance that is. i have always held that with free retrains and reinks the robf would be overpowered.

since changing back to sfbm with toe, i am annoyed by the robf users that i cannot beat who are much lower than my team, but i just remove them from my list and know that their lack of mpr growth will cause them to grow slower than i.

QBOddBird April 7 2008 3:58 PM EDT

ToA, all Familiar based setups suffer from this same thing. ToE/RoS may be the only two who do not.

TheHatchetman April 7 2008 3:59 PM EDT

chuck, it's 20-24% :P, and RoBF is (at least to my findings) the most efficient way to level a tat ^_^ re-ink to whatever and put your RoE on all ya want. Your tat stays the same :P

chuck1234 April 7 2008 4:18 PM EDT


dude, regarding your problem of having to drop RoBF chars from your fight-list, i have put up a front 300 AC wall, with enough HP, which takes care of the RoBF pretty well.


HM, here's an extract from the wiki regarding the RoE's xp gain:

"the RoE increases rewarded exp by 20% for a
character, given to whichever minion thats wearing it.

This results in:

A 20% increase in per-minion exp for the wearing minion in a 1-minion team,
A 40% increase for the minion in a 2-minion team,
A 60% increase for the minion in a 3-minion team,
A 80% increase for the minion in a 4-minion team.

This doesn't mean you get more exp with the more minions you have!!!"

My named RoE gives 44 percent extra xp to the RoE wearing minion in a 2 minion setup, i guess in a single minion setup that would be 22 percent.

QBOddBird April 7 2008 4:27 PM EDT

Yes, he means 22% extra experience to the team.

Since your comparison was to EXP time, which affects the whole team, he probably figured you misunderstood how it worked.

QBRanger April 7 2008 4:46 PM EDT

As stated,

The RBF is not the only tattoo that cannot be easily swapped out with the ROE.

So please no more of that statement.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] April 7 2008 4:54 PM EDT

i disagree ranger, it might not be convenient, but it is possible for familiars to still fight without retraining and thus use a roe, you may need a whole new fight list though.

with the robf and on a single minion, (for multiple minions it is not the case though) you cannot equip a roe without retraining and losing some mpr, unless you are silly enough to have some dd trained.

now single minions are a small, seemingly unwanted group in the game, but it doesn't change the facts.

QBRanger April 7 2008 5:16 PM EDT

Yes, Dude,

The single minion RBF.

However, you get such good xp fighting at 100% for a lot longer then most other strategies, does it not equal out in the long run?

IE getting a 100% CB for 2 months vs 100% for 6 weeks with a normal strategy and switching around using a ROE.

Talion April 7 2008 5:22 PM EDT

I agree with about everything, except item 5.

In my opinion and recent experience, Evasion is fine the way it is. Especially now that a DD minion can't equip a big pair of DB anymore.

Every ToA wearing archer with an MPR high enough to be in the dead zone is owning me since the last Evasion/Archery adjustment. My effective Evasion being: 1,252,789 (117).

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] April 7 2008 5:22 PM EDT

for someone growing a team that may be the case. remember though that when i equipped mine it gave me no one higher in my fightlist nor did i go down when moving to toe fb mage. i went up actually, of course i am in the 6/20 range and other's mileage may vary.

QBRanger April 7 2008 5:24 PM EDT

Well DD minions were not using evasion with DB's for months now.

They use much lower NW, but more effective EB's.

QBRanger April 7 2008 5:30 PM EDT

I agree Dude,

A lot of people will use the evasion/RBF early on to max rewards.

When they get higher, like yourself, they will see it is not a great strategy due to the nice weapons/DD spells up near the top.

But for those in the middle ranks of the game, it is quite discouraging to fight such a character with a decent weapon at your ENC limit/WA limit and whiff round after round, taking damage until you die. At 1/2 or 1/3 your MPR.

Tezmac April 7 2008 5:30 PM EDT

Am I the only one who has no clue what this ToE/RoE/RBoF switching around business is?

QBRanger April 7 2008 5:40 PM EDT

Some people like to occasionally switch from using their main tattoo to using a RoE for bonus xp.

If your using the RBF/evasion strategy a RoE is useless as you will have no attack.

If your using a ToE, like Koy, I can use the RoE relatively easily with some minor modification to my fightlist.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 7 2008 5:41 PM EDT

Tez, if you use a Strat that can kill without the aid of a tattoo, you switch in a RoE to maximise your rewards.

Then you swap it out for something like a ToE, so you're harder to kill when you're not on line.

It's the new Defensive Ammo. ;)

QBRanger April 7 2008 5:46 PM EDT

But remember that your tattoo will not grow when you use the RoE.

Which is why I do not use a RoE anymore on Koy.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] April 7 2008 5:51 PM EDT

i use my roe during xp times only so that my tat will still grow. i am not sure if that is the wisest time to use it, but i do feel better with my tat growing the rest of the week.

Tyriel [123456789] April 7 2008 6:02 PM EDT

"5) Melee round evasion has to be lowered. The evasion/RBF strategy is still quite viable. Perhaps a decaying evasion 5% per round or so."

As an Evasion user, I feel very strongly that there should be lowered effectiveness of Evasion as the battle goes on. You shouldn't be able to avoid everything fired at you by spending a few million and a few dozen million XP.

I could throw a bunch of numbers around, but not only am I not an expert at the numbers, I'd probably end up making my own thread, anyways...

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 7 2008 6:38 PM EDT

I'd only be happy with Evasion decaying during Melee, if the 'X' of wepaons decayed as well. They get blunter and therefore do less damage as the figth goes one (this isn't a permenant thing, and get sharpened back to full strength for the next fight).

DD could decay as well, the mage runs out of mystical energy the longer the fight goes on.

To have defense lower and offense stay the same shifts the balance of power, and makes defense even weaker than it is already (You don't need any defense if all your opponents are dead...)

Templar April 7 2008 6:40 PM EDT

GL, that makes sense, but, wouldn't that result in alot more stalemates?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] April 7 2008 6:45 PM EDT

gl, that is exactly why i said be careful what you wish for, strength and dexterity would also seem to be perfect candidates for decay the longer a battle lasts.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 7 2008 7:46 PM EDT

Ah, but I don't wish for it. ;)

I thought you could tell I'm not too keen on Evasion decaying at all...

Stalemates are bleh.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] April 7 2008 7:50 PM EDT

i could. :)

i was agreeing with you and i had stated the other sentiment earlier in the thread regarding strength and dexterity being ideal decaying attributes.

Mikel April 8 2008 1:30 AM EDT

I agree with all but 4.
You already lose out on Physical Damage Reduction.
All that will happen is people with switch to the cheaper to upgrade MS.
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