RoBf evasion (in General)
April 11 2008 12:36 PM EDT
Would someone make it clear whether it is 1/10th of the "tattoo xp" or 1/10th of the
NW of the RoBf applied to DBs?
I'm basing the "tattoo xp" off of the changelog
but Henk is convinced otherwise.. so we've been unproductively changing the version
of the wiki. Could someone clear this up? Is there even a difference in how
it would work in these two situations? Does it give defensive dex or not?
April 11 2008 12:42 PM EDT
If the changelog says: "tattoo xp", then it is tattoo xp.
Yes, tattoos gain xp - that's how Jon explained the RoE's workings, since it gives its ordinary XP to the wearer.
I would assume tattoo levels work the same way as normal skill levels: 12 xp to the level. If that's the case, then simply:
tattoo lvl x 12 = total exp
total exp / 10 = exp of Evasion
exp of evasion / 12 = lvls of Evasion
So no more Wiki-bickering now?
April 11 2008 12:44 PM EDT
Yeah, that's what I figured, so I guess it does give defensive dex?
April 11 2008 12:44 PM EDT
The way I understand it is as follows:
My tattoo is 7+M level.
In xp that would be 7M x 12 = 84M xp.
So 10% of that is 8.4M xp. So add that xp to your evasion to find the new level.
I do not know if modifiers from items apply to this before or after it is added.
We do know that this xp does not get a multiplier for ranged rounds.
Or more simply, take 10% of your tattoo level and add that to your evasion level.
Again, I do not know if this gets added to the adjusted level after items or raw level before items. I do, however, suspect it is the latter. A straight addition after bonuses (incluiding ranged bonuses).
the original changelog of the new & improved rbf is here:
it states that the evasion is determined in this manner:
"added evasion bonus, roughly equivalent to the evasion added by a pair of DB at 1/3 the NW of the TBF. (Like DB, this evasion does not get a bonus during ranged. Also like DB, this stacks "correctly" -- 100 evasion + 100 DB is not 200 against PTH.)"
i think this is where henk got his idea and either jon changed the whole method for this latest change, or he misspoke. i think clarification on jon's part is called for in this matter.
" Would someone make it clear whether it is 1/10th of the "tattoo xp" or 1/10th of the
NW of the RoBf applied to DBs?"
Dude read the wiki this time!!!!!
RoBF adds evasion LIKE displacement boots do! It doesn't say the nw is directly added to displacement boots.
1/10 of the NW is converted to evasion.
And how Ranger or OB explain is a bit difficult why convert to NW then divide by 12 to XP then convert that back to evasion??
If you convert it right to DB's it much easier
My robf is 43mil of nw or a 2.2mil lvl tat.
If you take that 43mil 1/10th of that is 4.3mil if you look up the number next to the displacement boots its says 60.
My RoBF gives me an evasion of 60.
The RoBF gives me a pair of displacement +60 for that NW.
I don't say the RoBF give +60 to my DB's!!!!
My +50 db's and my robf give a total evasion of 73!!!! Not +110 like you think!!!!
And it does not give defensive dex! The RoBF acts like DB's do!!!
Read before posting!
April 11 2008 1:09 PM EDT
Per Jon and the changelog:
"RBF evasion bonus is now 1/10 of tattoo "xp" applied to evasion. Still does not get a ranged bonus. "
Do you see ANYTHING about DBs in the new changelog?
I certainly do not.
Henk, READ THE CHANGELOG before posting!!!!
It is far easier to divide your tattoo level by 10 and then add that to the evasion level your character has. But I am uncertain if the addition is after all modifers (including ranged) or before. I do suspect it is the former.
The way I read the changelog implies that the RBF does indeed give defensive dex like evasion, as NOTHING is typed by Jon about DB equivalence.
It is one thing to be nasty to someone posting a question, but it is funnier to yell and scream at them and be WRONG!
BTW, the wiki is not always correct, one of the problems with any wiki, including wikipedia.
April 11 2008 1:15 PM EDT
Henk, I've read the wiki.
It is player-edited, and thus subject to human flaw.
However, when Jonathan says he has changed something to a particular form, we can assume that 99% of the time what he says is correct and the wiki should be updated accordingly.
I understand that you know how the RoBF evasion once worked. That doesn't necessarily apply to the way it works now; ESPECIALLY if Jonathan has just made a changelog saying so.
Who knows, maybe we're wrong and you're right and Jonathan meant to say it is 1/10 of NW. However, since he said EXP, that's what should be in the wiki.
"And how Ranger or OB explain is a bit difficult why convert to NW then divide by 12 to XP then convert that back to evasion??
If you convert it right to DB's it much easier"
Complex and correct > Simple and wrong
The original changelog also spoke of evasion.
added evasion bonus, roughly equivalent to the evasion added by a pair of DB at 1/3 the NW of the TBF. (Like DB, this evasion does not get a bonus during ranged. Also like DB, this stacks "correctly" -- 100 evasion + 100 DB is not 200 against PTH.)
What jon changed is the nw, but the way you can calculate how the evasion works is still the same.
1/10 of the nw is the same as 1/10 of the tat lvl and gives the same results.
60 evasion, in my case, calculated from 10% of the nw or 10% of the lvl gives the same results.
And because tattoo "xp" = tattoo "nw" Linear as far as I know it.
However because the new changelog didn't stated the way it works, I conclude that the old way (evasion liek db's) is still correct.
Ow and ranger, if you can't test something out. (you have no robf) Dont make statements you can't backup.
I tested it out (db's nw and tat nw) and it still holds true.
April 11 2008 1:33 PM EDT
OK, so I agree that it still stacks the same way - it isn't a trained Evasion level, of course. It's EXP (or you say NW) added to that of an Evasion that is pre-existing, the same way DBs added to Evasion (not effect, 50+50).
But you've lost me. Where did you get that tattoo XP = tattoo NW? I missed where that was stated...
And either way, if tattoo XP = tattoo NW, nonetheless one should state tattoo NW in the wiki given that that is what is said in the changelog
Let's see...if tattoo XP = tattoo NW, then we should be able to divide NW by 12 and get the tattoo's level, no? Unless he increases each level in a different manner (say old-style exp increases)?
Either way, the changelog states clearly that it is 1/10 the tattoo "xp", so for simplicity's sake let's leave it like that in the Wiki. Especially if we are using assumptions that NW = xp in our attempts to 'simplify' the equation.
I take it you haven't tried just the RoBF? Read my latest post in the thread.
OB because the lvl of a tattoo equals to "xp" of tat.
But the lvl of a tat also equals the nw of a tat.
Therefor XP is NW for a tat
April 11 2008 1:38 PM EDT
henk. not to sound rude, but the wiki is made by players... any player and doesn't make it right. Jon has nothing to do with the wiki. So unless jon made the wiki change about how the evasion and RoBF works then the wiki could be totally wrong. You have to go by what Jon stated in the changelog and if the information isn't enough to go on then it's a guessing game until someone does enough research to find out for sure. That is how this game works.. People always quote the wiki like it is all knowing... It is a player made help area. So it tends to be wrong on occasion. Best if all remember that.
ow JS let me guess you tat is about 36mil nw?
db's 56 nw $3,643,407
April 11 2008 1:40 PM EDT
The level equals the NW? O.o This confuses me, because:
A Rune of Balrog Flame lvl 1,337,825 NW: $24,268,116
A Fire Familiar lvl 20 NW: $11,030
And if the level equals the XP of a tat, then we should be able to see how much EXP a RoE would ordinarily add to a team by naturally growing a tattoo on that team, no?
Where did these conclusions come up from?
ow and soxjr, I know what a wiki is and how its made. And i base my info from changelogs nothing else.
Good point, Henk. Nice catch.
NW like your FF equals that lvl of that tat.
No other NW correspondes with that lvl of that tat.
No other lvl correspondes with that nw of that tat.
Im trying to say a tat of a certain lvl will have a specific networth.
The tat with exactly the same lvl will have the same nw.
So lvl = nw (devide the nw by an unknow factor) = xp of a tat.
Am I clear enough now?
April 11 2008 1:52 PM EDT
I catch what you are saying then - they run on a similar curve.
So tattoo lvl relates to NW. Also, tattoo lvl relates to NW of DBs.
Now add in tattoo XP to this equation (show me how you got that, how you know it is correct) and I think we should have come full circle. :)
You really can't see tat exp can you?
NW you can see within 5 secs.
But still the evasion added by the RoBF act like DB's and give no defensive dex.
the easiest way to know what you evasion number will be is to devide that nw by 10 look up the db's in wiki and bam you know your evasion within a sec.
April 11 2008 2:04 PM EDT
Now here's where we divide.
Since Jon says tattoo XP, I stick firmly with that. I think tattoo XP relates to level as well, but in the same way that exp for skills relates to level - there's 12 XP to the level.
Your way is to use the tattoo NW and make a link to tattoo XP. If it works, then that's great - there's a link between the two (and there certainly must be), and the method works.
So: a compromise.
The changelog says it is based on tattoo XP. We leave it that way in the Wiki, as that is irrevocably correct: Jon said so. However, we can just put "Henk's simple method for finding your RoBF Evasion" below it, with a link to this thread.
Sounds acceptable? No more wiki battles?
ow and you guys say now the robf gives effective trained evasion? That is just not true.
If it gave effective trained evasion, it would get bonuses, defensive dex and could be modified by ebs, AoF and all those skill boosting items.
And as jon clearly stated the robf grants evasion (like db's grants evasion) but gets no bonus or can be changed by skill boosting gears.
But it can stack with db's and with trained evasion.
April 11 2008 2:09 PM EDT
So the RBF's effect is added on after all the bonuses are applied to the trained level.
Is that a hard concept to grasp?
Ranger as it stands now, I read the wiki and it says the RoBF trains evasion on my minion that is wearing it.
But it only grants evasion like db's! Db's don't train evasion, but you also get it.
Is that even harder to grasp?
April 11 2008 2:15 PM EDT
No, I didn't say that.
RoBF evasion has always been a simple PTH reduction. I didn't see anywhere in the changelog that Jon changed that.
April 11 2008 2:24 PM EDT
I still have no idea where DBs come into play.
The newest changelog states NOTHING about DBs. Yet people persist on saying "the wiki states this and that and the other thing". The wiki can be wrong.
I read the new changelog as the RBF gives xp to the wearing minion as xp into evasion.
Until Jon clarifies it, DBs have nothing to do with the RBF now.
Please tell me where in this statement, directly from the changelog, has anything to do with DBs? :
"RBF evasion bonus is now 1/10 of tattoo "xp" applied to evasion. Still does not get a ranged bonus. "
And how the heck to you get evasion from DBs? DBs are a straight minus to PTH. DBs have nothing to do with evasion and defensive dexterity.
April 11 2008 4:11 PM EDT
It seems tattoo NW and tattoo Lvl are not linearly related, to an approximate extent but not exactly. I think it's better to stick with what the changelog says unless testing proves different, and if so to say that in the wiki.
If you would like to do testing to prove that it does not give defensive dex, rather than just saying it doesn't I will believe you, but you keep citing an old changelog.. and well the new changelog does not give an answer to this question.
To answer if it gives defensive dex or not, someone needs to compare the number of hits between two minions with low and equal dex say 20 dex. With and without a relatively low level RoBf (so the negative pth does not skew the results).
April 11 2008 4:36 PM EDT
i'm an evasion char. I use a RoBF from what i've seen in the post battle stats Ranger is right it's Tattoo level/10 = amount of exp added since I have 178 evasion at 3,582,755 and a RoBF level 1,978,863 so i figure 197,886 would roughly equal the amount needed to add 4 levels
uhm if you have noticed or not, if you wear db's in the post battle stats that shows up as evasion +50 db's show up as 50 evasion, and that is exactly what jon meant when saying grants evasion.
The way robf gives evasion is similar like db's its only straight up pth reduction, no ranged modifiers, no way to boost it, no defensive dex and no bonus.
And because the "new" changelog does not state that the DB part has changed. It only says that its now 1/10 of the "xp" of the tat. Which I interpret as NW, because the lvl of a tattoo equals a certain amount of nw for that tat, therefor xp of a tat is the lvl or nw. the only thing changed for the robf is the nw calculation. no longer 1/3 but 1/10! and nothing else.
ow and stacking is just perfect if you calculate it from nw robf + nw db's
My +50 db's nw $2,752,708
My robf gives me an evasion of 60 or similar db's +60 $4,322,200
My total evasion is 73 or a total +73 boots nw $7,028,945 (which happens to be $2,752,708 + $4,322,200 = 7,074,908)
My nw is over the required $7,028,945 but still below the $7,270,342. so it results in 73.
My next point (if i don't up my db's, just robf grow) will be 74.
When my tat hits 45mil nw my total evasion will br 74!
$7,270,342 nw total (so db's + robf nw/10) is a total 74 evasion
Next point in line (or total evasion is) +74 nw of the boots $7,270,342
From the db's From my 45mil tat Ow looky +74 db's?
$2,752,708 + $4,502,867 = $7,270,342
If you use the evasion table it does not stack this perfectly! And you get wrong numbers!
Does anyone not see the strange link between the two?
Could you explain (in an easier way or more accurate way) my total evasion of 73 without using the NW table from DB's?
And if not, does this not imply that the robf still gives evasion like db's and its nw still not gives evasion like db's of the same amount of nw?
More food for thought.
I rented two pairs of db's one pair of +42 and a pair of +17 ones
Let calculate some more!
With the +42 boots (nw $1,789,881) my total evasion is 69 (nw $6,111,790) taken from post battle stats.
My robf hasn't changed so that is still +60 or $4,322,200
A small sum 1,789,881 + 4,322,200 = 6,112,081 <-- omg perfect!
The next point on the db list is +70 or a nw of $6,333,881
Next up the +17 db's and my robf!
db's +17 nw 198,132 robf nw 4,322,200 Total +61 nw 4,502,867
next point +62 $4,687,995 omg still perfect!
What an easy way! And if this isn't the way it should be calculated thus explained in wiki. Explain me a different more easy and fast way!
April 11 2008 8:31 PM EDT
AH, I see the problem Henk.
According to the OLD changelog, the NW of the RBF was added like DBs.
The exact changelog: "added evasion bonus, roughly equivalent to the evasion added by a pair of DB at 1/3 the NW of the TBF. (Like DB, this evasion does not get a bonus during ranged. Also like DB, this stacks "correctly" -- 100 evasion + 100 DB is not 200 against PTH.)"
In the first changing of the RBF, the evasion was based on the RBF being converted to NW, then finding the equivalent DB minus PTH (the + on the DBs)
Now the changelog is :"RBF evasion bonus is now 1/10 of tattoo "xp" applied to evasion. Still does not get a ranged bonus. "
Now, how I read this is: The RBF is now, changed from before, to give bonus as xp based, NOT NW based. I think we have to assume (at least I do) that the "xp" of the tattoo is just 12 (xp per level) * level of tattoo. A simple way to calculate it.
So now the equivalent level of DB's does not matter. Straight xp to xp addition, converted to evasion (xxx). The tattoos part of the xp is not multiplied, however learned evasion is. I think also, that items will give bonuses to the tattoos xp contribution.
I have not done the calculations to prove or disprove this however, this seems the way Jon changed it.
Learn evasion on your RBF minion and see which way works. It has to be a nice sized evasion though to get goo statistics.
I certainly can be wrong.
Well I do have a nice evasion character which I also test, but because the table below evasion is completely wrong and no one took the effort to record the correct lvls for evasion (since the 12 exp change), I can't give a clear answer on that one.
And because both ways are correct to calculate the evasion lvl:
NW robf/10 = NW DB's or lvl ROBF/10 = evasion lvl
but since the evasion table is wrong the most accurate way is the first way.
Ow and btw jon didn't exactly said that the db feature was removed?
because the xp is between these thing ---> " <----- it can't be taken literally can it now?
April 11 2008 8:56 PM EDT
Just because the evasion tables are off, does not mean that is not the way it is done.
Is that the basis for your discussion: "Our evasion tables are off, therefore my way is right"?
I took the "" of xp to signify though all tattoos should be equal, it is impossible to accurately figure the "real" xp of a tattoo.
IE a 4M IF will have 4M levels of CoC and 1M levels of HP= 5M levels or 60M xp.
But one cannot do that with a RBF or TOE.
So all tattoos will have levels equal to their tattoo level. So tattoo level * 12 is total xp.
Im not saying that way is wrong!
Im saying that because the evasion table is of you can't find the evasion lvls easy and because both ways are CORRECT!
The easiest way is to calculate from nw.
And why go through all the trouble of multiplying and dividing and then looking up in the (still wrong) evasion table. Then look up the items in the evasion (like db's) for the stacking numbers (if you have stacking).
April 12 2008 5:41 AM EDT
Tattoo NW and Tattoo Lvl are not linearly related... So it's not the same thing.
dude you haven't been reading anything in this thread?
Read again my posts then come back again
April 12 2008 6:41 AM EDT
Yes, I have, my point is that they are not linear so it is not the same
thing. Just because I took issue with only one claim does not mean
that I didn't read the entire thing, I was too tired to make a whole
post, but this time lack of common sense got the better of me.
I do realize that it does not make evasion levels appear on your
character like the ToA, but that does not mean that there is no
defensive dex. However, you have not proven that there is no
defensive dex, you have merely guessed based on the fact that it
doesn't appear on your minions stats.
I completely believe that it's entirely possible that you are right and
Jon just meant to say Networth to DBs, but prove the contrary
first. Yes, I agree your numbers seem to fit better. Also, less rudeness
would be appreciated.
April 12 2008 7:00 AM EDT
Also, to my understanding the 12 exp change did not change any of
the skill levels for effects etc. so go ahead and use the evasion table.
However, to definitively say that it does not provide evasion levels,
someone needs to do the evasion defensive dex test I described,
which no one did. We all know that it used to work like DBs,
however, because the new changelog does not suggest this we
assume it provides evasion levels until proven otherwise; we do not
assume otherwise until then.
"the 12 exp change did not change any of the skill levels for effects"
That table is still based on the 1 exp for 1 lvl up to 16 exp for 1 lvl so yes that table is way of and so are the skill levels for effects, I can see that because my own evasion no longer corresponds with the numbers given by the table.
"but that does not mean that there is no defensive dex."
Just happens that I tested this out by putting my robf on my evasion minion.
Some people on my fight list are now actually able to hit me.
ow and i didn't say lvl is linear to nw. I said, and you can read this from my previous posts, nw/factor that jon knows = lvl
And like I said a specific nw exists for a specific lvl!
April 12 2008 6:10 PM EDT
Just as a point of reference, my lvl 2M RoBF moves my total EV from 145 to 150.
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