The RBF is a weak Tattoo (in General)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 23 2008 5:28 AM EDT


LoL! I hate /Discuss threads. :P

OK, back to normal programming. The recent changes have really impacted the RBF.

At 3M in size, it provides 300K trained Evasion. This Evasion isn't increased by Ranged modifiers, nor is it increased by items (I tested with an AoF). So no super boosted Evasion from it.

The Damage is low, but balanced. It can't be boosted, but there's nothing specific to reduce it, and it doesn't trigger any sort of backlash.

The DD reduction is still stupid though. :P

So if you can't hit RBF Evasion minions, it's the natural trained Evasion, getting modified in Ranged and being super boosted by Items that's your bane. Not the RBF. ;)

Other Tattoo's are better for defense (A 3M ToE will at worst reduce all incoming damage by 1.5M per hit) or Offense (like a 3M IF hitting for 1.5M-3M per melee round, compared to the 600K of the RBF).

So at an example of 3M in size, it provides 300K Evasion, 600K Damage per Melee round and reduces DD (and RBF/Ex Shot) damage by 399K.

Time for some loving? ;)

QBJohnnywas April 23 2008 5:36 AM EDT

"So at an example of 3M in size, it provides 300K Evasion, 600K Damage per Melee round and reduces DD (and RBF/Ex Shot) damage by 399K. "

Re: ex only blocks 'splash damage', not the direct hit.

Ariac April 23 2008 5:37 AM EDT

If they're weak...wanna sell me your's? I personally like them a bunch.

BootyGod April 23 2008 5:48 AM EDT

You missed a few key points.

A) It allows the trained minion to have no form of attack, because the RoBF deals damage and cannot, itself, die. This leads to a battle where despite low damage output per round, they have 30 rounds to do it in, because you can't kill a minion training only evasion and AMF with a stupid amount of magic resistance.

That's the point you missed. But it's big enough to count for plural.

chuck1234 April 23 2008 6:01 AM EDT

Get a 300 AC wall, and the RoBF damage becomes a crummy affair reduced to measly figures. If that wall has a TSA, then all the better. A 360+ AC wall will reduce even lvl 4 mil + RoBF damage to lower five figures.

chuck1234 April 23 2008 6:02 AM EDT

imho the only tat currently in need of parental love is yon poor, wretched, long-suffering Hal.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 23 2008 6:03 AM EDT

The ability to stalemate is not a bonus.

If you can't cope with the damage output of a RBF (through the multitude of damage reduciton layers, have a high AC tank as first minion, then layer on PL and a TSA...) as the only form of damage on your opponent, and last out those 30 rounds, then yeah, sure.

That is of course if you can't kill them before the 30 rounds is over. ;)

But the moment stalemates change to give cash/xp again, I'll list it as a benefit.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 23 2008 6:04 AM EDT

the RBF isn't the only tattoo in need of loving. Hal anf RoS spring to mind.

Or alternatively, the impact of the better tattoo's could be reudced, to lower the necessity of having to use a tatoo.

QBRanger April 23 2008 7:00 AM EDT

Just ask Beee if he thinks the RBF is a poor tattoo.

Nerf evasion in melee rounds and I will be right behind you leading the charge to bump up the RBF.

Until then... no freaking way.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 23 2008 8:40 AM EDT

Ranger, read up.

The Evasion given from a RBF is crap.

No Ranger Modifiers, no benefit from items at all.

A 7M RBF would give 700K Evasion.

If you face someone with a 7M MTL and can't oversome 700K Evasion (that isn't going to be boosted by 100% from Elven Gear and an AoF) then should you really be asking for Evaison to be nerfed?

It's the Evasion trained, that is increased by Ranged Modifier and boosted by items that casues the problem.

The additional Evasion provided by a RBF is gonna be a drop in the ocean compared to that.

Even the DEX froma ToA is now boosted by Items...

Brakke Bres [Ow man] April 23 2008 8:43 AM EDT

Yeah its horribly weak, boost it!

iBananco [Blue Army] April 23 2008 8:50 AM EDT

He's referring to the fact that evasion combined with the RoBF = no-brainer tank-killer.

Brakke Bres [Ow man] April 23 2008 8:55 AM EDT

The same way the single archer is a no brainer.

Even today after countless nerfs.

And because only two words are flagged in the above sentence I am not going to do the effort of the no spell check tags. When is the dictionary getting updated?

Flamey April 23 2008 8:58 AM EDT

"The ability to stalemate is not a bonus. "

You don't get farmed by someone you'd probably lose to.

Ulord[NK] April 23 2008 9:05 AM EDT

Look at Dudemus's character. He's about 50% higher in score with the single minoin RoBF and one of the top characters in the game. He was drifting outside of top 20 with a single minion dd. All that with minimal nw requirement and ONE!!! minion. RoBF is as stupid as ever. If anything, the dd resistance needs to be nerfed more.

QBJohnnywas April 23 2008 9:11 AM EDT

Funny though how all the big teams who were using RBFs no longer do so. I remember one of the arguments given for it's overpowered-ness was the ability to fight without hardly any NW. Thought that ability would come in handy now we have our new encumbrance.

Ulord[NK] April 23 2008 9:13 AM EDT

That's because they recognize that ToE is even more ridiculous than RoBF, especially on big teams since their tatts are so big that breaking the threshold is virtually impossible in ranged.

QBJohnnywas April 23 2008 9:16 AM EDT

I thought maybe it had something to do with the fact that ToE + CoC (providing CoC is big enough of course) is a natural counter.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] April 23 2008 9:37 AM EDT

my mpr is currently ranked at 19th in the game. while using mm and an mm familiar (or toe and fb for that matter) my score was ranked in the mid to high 20's, probably averaging around 27th place or so.

now with the robf, my score is ranked at 16th in the game. am i too high now or was i too low before?

as i have said many times before, i think the robf sweet spot is going to be no boost ot evasion or dd reduction as the xp concentration it allows makes those things unnecessary, at that point it might need a slight damage boost though to stay competitive with its other drawbacks.

QBRanger April 23 2008 9:46 AM EDT


Do not read into my posts other then the obvious.

Nerf evasion in melee rounds since with the RBF you an put quite a bit of xp into evasion.

If Dudemus would have a lower AMF (it is the highest in the game) and boost his evasion even more I would not hit him at all. Right now I miss about 15-20% of the time fighting him, in melee.

If he would boost his evasion, given the super duper incredible AoF boost, I would never hit him in melee. True, he could not beat me just using the RBF, but I and EVERY other tank would not be able to hit him.

All the time, he can pick off any top tank that does not use high AC or a TOE.

Such as Beee's character who loses to someone less then 1/2 his MPR and under 1/5th his NW.

The RBF is not overpowered in itself, however the ability to concentrate xp into an abusive skill is.

I have never stated the evasion bonus from the RBF is anything other then trivial. But who needs a bonus from the RBF, when you get a enormous boost from the AoF which does not grant tanks any dexterity to compensate.

Cube April 23 2008 9:48 AM EDT

"The same way the single archer is a no brainer."

A single archer takes net worth, and requires trade offs when equipping.

QBRanger April 23 2008 9:50 AM EDT

^^ exactly.

The RBF requires nothing more then a tattoo, and xp in evasion. Xp into HP and AMF are optional.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] April 23 2008 9:55 AM EDT

"The RBF requires nothing more then a tattoo, and xp in evasion. Xp into HP and AMF are optional."

i do disagree with that one, unless you meant: to beat koy that is all that is needed. look at who wins against me, it is mostly mages at the moment. this is why i am not boosting evasion and still working on amf now. that is still an amazing amount of concentration though, don't get me wrong.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] April 23 2008 9:57 AM EDT

in my last post, i shouldn't have said "to beat koy" but rather to foil koy or melee damage in general.

TheHatchetman April 23 2008 10:07 AM EDT

ranged weapons in melee also help protect defensive DX against EC... Say I have 20 DX and 1m Evasion and a composite bow, and I get ECd for 500k by a tank with 650k DX, my DX goes to -499,980. when melee comes around, my DX gets penalized 60% to -199,992. then my defensive DX of 1m kicks in and I have 800,008 defensive DX instead of 500k...

Ulord[NK] April 23 2008 10:09 AM EDT

^Been doing that for ages. It works. Now that Ranger actually uses melee tank, maybe this'll get some discussion. Is it an exploit to nullify 60% of the EC exp, with a base short bow?

Cube April 23 2008 10:27 AM EDT

"Offense (like a 3M IF hitting for 1.5M-3M per melee round, compared to the 600K of the RBF)."

IF is subject to AMF, GA, and Mageseekers.

iBananco [Blue Army] April 23 2008 10:31 AM EDT

RoBF is subject to physical AC and is more susceptible to ToEs.

Cube April 23 2008 10:35 AM EDT

AMF, GA, and Mageseekers all stop damage output completely, AC just reduces the output.

After you've reduced the damage of the RoBF minion you still have to figure out a way to kill them too.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 23 2008 10:35 AM EDT

Ranger, would you hit Dude without his RBF on?

I don't know the exact stats (if Dude woldn't mind disclosing them, that would be fantastic! :D) so guessing mostly here.

Being second on the trained Evasion list, I'm going to assume a natural trained Evasion of 3M (Equal to HP). On top of that, an AoF+8, EB+25, EG+10 and Buckler-2. For a total boost of 57%. Let's call it a 50% increase for ease.

That means you are facing an Evaison of 4.5M. I've no idea what effect that would translate to.

Would you hit that?

On top of that, Dude's Tattoo adds a whopping 331K (or around 7%).

So the RBF, adding an extra 7% is what breaks the bank, and makes you miss him?


331K, that doesn't benefit from Ranged multipliers not item base stat boost.

Where as there's (porbably, depending on my guesses) 1.5M Evasion, which does benefit from Ranged modifiers, coming from items only...

iBananco [Blue Army] April 23 2008 10:37 AM EDT

Ranger's objecting to the fact that by using the RoBF, not only does dude gain a bit of protection from magic, allowing him to focus more on evasion, but he gets an attack which isn't subject to any form of retaliation.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] April 23 2008 10:39 AM EDT

HP 3,000,003

Evasion 5,896,322 3,662,312 217 180

Antimagic Field 6,178,278 5,431,454 ? ?

i just dumped my ga, meant to do that a while back and forgot! i put all of that xp into amf.

my post battle stats shows an evasion level of 222.

QBsutekh137 April 23 2008 10:49 AM EDT

A "bit" of protection against magic? Takes me all six rounds of ranged to kill one minion (3 million HP). Highest FB in the game, fairly huge/augmented SF, and all the magic enhanced by amulets of leadership.

Granted, an AMF cast of 0.50 is pretty damn massive, but still! *smile* My mage and familiar are dead after six rounds, but luckily my doofus enchanters are still milling about...

Was the ROBF DD reduction reduced concomitantly with the 40% ranged damage output reduction? I can't recall. I know the ToE was not brought down, but am not sure about the RoBF?

Thresholdy things should be brought down too.

QBRanger April 23 2008 10:49 AM EDT

JS is right in his statement above.

However, if the RBF did not add evasion, I have no idea if I would hit Dude more.

But this is my most recent battle vs him:

2 / 4 / 1,636,843

Yes, when I hit, it is for a lot, but with more xp into evasion that can easily be:

0 / 0 / 0

How is that right?

And still gives him some attack not vulnerable to AMF/MgS/mageseekers/GA.

Combine my effecive EC of over 3.9M vs Dudemus and my native 1.6M dex, I should have close to 5.5M effective dexterity (Yes, I know it is not exactly that).

And with the 2nd largest MH +, I hit only 50% of the time now.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 23 2008 11:00 AM EDT


There you go.

The RBF provides a static (no ranged multiplier) Evasion increase of 5.6% to dude's current Evasion.

Game breaker? Hardly. It's less than the increase a couple of points (or a point and naming) on his AoF would give.

The RBF (bar it's stupid DD reduction - which wasn't reduced alongisde the ranged reduciton) is an underwhelming Tattoo.

Evasion is a problem. But that's Evasion. NOT the RBF. It's Evasion and the item increases it can get. Something the RBF doesn't benefit from.

Dude, would you do me a favour? fight once without the RBF on to see what your post fight effect is without it. I want to see how much 331K Evasion at your level increases your effect by. ;)

Usul [CHOAM] April 23 2008 11:08 AM EDT

if he fights without RoBF equipped.... the most he gets is stalemates.

A better suggestion is ask Dudemus to unequip RoBF, and have Ranger attack him. See if the result is still consistent

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 23 2008 11:46 AM EDT

More food for thought.

Overall Tattoo effects per level (I've left the RoE out, as it perm boosts a single minion);

FF: 125% (100% DD, 25% HP)
IF: 125% (100% DD, 25% HP)
SF: 125% (100% DD, 25% HP)
Hal: 135.5% (33% HP, 50% Str, 50% Dex, ~2.5% Archery)
JKF: 134% (33% HP, 20% Str, 33% Dex, 40% UC, 8% Endurance)
ToA: 83% + PTH (50% Dex, 33% Str)
ToE: 50-170% (50% Main, 40% x 3 Aura)
RoS: 88-183% (50% +ED, 33% x 4 DM Protection)
RBF: 43.33% (20% Damage, 10% Evasion, 13.33% DD Reduction)

It was an eye opener.

Even wen compared to a ToE on a single minion, it's still the worst bang for your buck Tatoo wise. And facing a multi minion team with an Aura Tattoo, or even any of the Familiars, the RBF gives you so little in comparison.

43.33% of level spent on effect. Compared to a total of up to 170 or even 183%...

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] April 23 2008 12:21 PM EDT

the pacifist
EXP 5,198
HP 110,127
ST -3,974
DX -3,968
AC 110
Total Evasion 217
Damage Inflicted 0 / 4,654,113
Ammo remaining

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 23 2008 12:22 PM EDT

Thanks! So the 331K Evasion from the RBF increases the efect by a whopping (5)...

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] April 23 2008 12:35 PM EDT

GL Don't say a whopping (5) Considering it takes about 330k levels in experience to get that 5 points which can easily be a deal breaker... To be honest all it takes currently is 236 Evasion + enough defensive dex to negate all Dex bonus on anyone in the top to make them miss every time they swing a weapon...

And lets just say this... Evasion 6,209,940 3,201,000 222 170
And I'm a 4 minion team with one minion a strict evasion minion... Just think what would happen if I had as much Evasion as Dude or Karn... then who would ever hit me? (6595702) on Karn's Minion with my 108% Skill bonus would give me almost 350 evasion if not more... and Enough defensive dex to kill every Tanks Dex and have enough to spare after Anyones EC.

iBananco [Blue Army] April 23 2008 2:07 PM EDT

"The RBF (bar it's stupid DD reduction - which wasn't reduced alongisde the ranged reduciton) is an underwhelming Tattoo."
Wrong. It was dropped by 33%, compared to the ranged reduction of 40%. It got a slight buff in ranged, but a fairly massive nerf in melee.

iBananco [Blue Army] April 23 2008 2:10 PM EDT

And GL, your percentage comparisons are comparing apples to oranges. Imagine a tattoo that gave 1% of its level in magical AC. Once you hit 47.7K level, you're impervious to damage. You can only make this kind of comparison when looking at stats vs. stats or damage reduction vs. damage reduction.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 23 2008 2:35 PM EDT

JS, as I said int he other thread, it was a general reduction. Nothing was changed to accomodate the Ranged nerf at all.

And I'm making a point with the comparisons. Surely you *can't* fail to see what it is?

iBananco [Blue Army] April 23 2008 3:28 PM EDT

The reductions were made because of the ranged nerf.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 23 2008 3:32 PM EDT

Oh ok. Then can we have the reduction buffed bac k into it's un nerfed state in Melee please? Melee DD wasn't reduced at all, so the RBF is performing at a 40% malus...

43% of all XP used by the Tattoo is dire. Shocking waste. No other Tattoo comes close (well ToE on a single minion...).

iBananco [Blue Army] April 23 2008 3:39 PM EDT

Like I said, those numbers are meaningless. If the AC tat I proposed was added, would you consider that a waste?

Ulord[NK] April 23 2008 4:01 PM EDT

RoBF reduction was overpowered pre change. Why would we buff it back up in melee so it becomes overpowered again? If anything, a further reduction in ranged is warranted.

Using ToE to compare is really not too useful. ToE is the most overpowered tatt out there right now. The top players all realized that...

Soxjr April 23 2008 4:02 PM EDT

GL, I understand what you are trying to say about the RBF, but you are failing to see what everyone else is saying. You can't..... CAN'T.... have an argument about the RBF without bringing evasion into the mix... Sorry it can't be done. The reason for that is there is no other tat in the game that allows a person to focus xp like the RBF does. So a person can go crazy with evasion and make it where nothing hits them. Add to the fact of the DD resistance thing and what really needs to be upgraded about the RBF. Something doesn't need a lot of damage when nothing can hit it? I'm lacking in seeing your argument. Mostly because you are trying to argue that evasion doesn't come into play, but it does. How many people use a RBF and don't train a massive evasion? So you really can't argue one without the other.

iBananco [Blue Army] April 23 2008 4:10 PM EDT

I do. Since the issue that you all seem to have is against RoBF + heavily concentrated evasion, give trained evasion a penalty to RoBF and/or physical damage. I say and/or because this would be penalizing SoD/evasion minions as well, and I'm not sure that's a good thing.

Brakke Bres [Ow man] April 23 2008 4:15 PM EDT

well ranger you actually have -400k dex advantage on him, and -2 pth.
And that -2 pth is cutting into your CTH so im wondering why are you able to actually can hit him.

iBananco [Blue Army] April 23 2008 4:20 PM EDT

Because 400K isn't enough of a dex gap to drop Ranger's dex CTH to 0. It's closer to about 50-60%.

Brakke Bres [Ow man] April 23 2008 4:26 PM EDT

well that explains why you only hit him twice out of four times

QBRanger April 23 2008 4:40 PM EDT


Equal dex with a 2H weapon is about 50% chance to hit.

Colonel Custard April 23 2008 4:51 PM EDT

"Ranger, would you hit Dude without his RBF on?"
Yes. Ranger can still beat him. Ranger beats everybody. Use a different example.
Let's pretend I can almost hit dude, but miss, and get fried by the RBF over the course of 30 rounds. Then let's say dude took off the RBF, and I still couldn't quite hit him... but then he's not doing any damage to me, and we stalemate. Or maybe I can hit him just a couple of times, and then I win.

That's the difference, GL: It provides an offense. The amount of Evasion it grants isn't as negligible as it may seem (5 points at that level is probably another few mil NW on a Morg), but still isn't that much. The RBF, however, can kill people. And it can't be killed.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 23 2008 4:53 PM EDT

Because Dropping the RBF wouldn't change the Evasion problem one jot.

Hell, Dude could use a ToA, gain 1.5M (before Item boosting!) Dex over 331K (losing 5-PTH in the process) and be a hell of a lot harder for Ranger to hit!

Sure, while this might lead to more Stalemates (if Dude didn't want to use a weapon, or tailor not to face GA teams, which as even Ranger has stated aren't really prevelant in the Top), it makes him a hell of a lot harder for Tank to kill him, then the RBF does.

Dude had around a 60% increase to Dex/Skills. replacing his RBF with a 3M ToA would give him and extra 2.4M Dex! Over losing 331K Dex and -5 PTH. Using a ToA *still* means Dude can sink 6M into AMF to reduce the largest FB in the game by 50%. He could use a ToE instead, and be a better stalemate team to stop people attacking him (And probably even passivle win versus Mages due to AMF backlash damage). Hell I might even adivsing doing that (if I had two tatoos of the same size) as a defensive switch.

The impact the RBF has on Evasion is negligable. At the *very* least it could be buffed to be improved by Items and the Ranged Modifiers.

If you want to complain about Evasion, it's bianry nature, it's easy boosting thorugh items and it's ability to negate/ruin tanks, please take it to another thread.

The RBF really has a tiny tiny impact on Evasion now...

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 23 2008 5:15 PM EDT

Well, this thread has given me a new goal. As much as I liked the dual Fire/Ice damage et up on my current minion, I was getting bored, and mired in low Challenge Bonuses.

So I've decided to (for as long as my fighting interest holds out) show that you can make just as abusive defense Evasion/AMF charcater without needing a RBF.

I've reinked to a ToA, retrained my Prot and CoC into AMF and Evasion, and rente a few items.

So far, I've jumped right up to 100% Challenge bonus.

And my Evasion has sky rocketted.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 23 2008 5:17 PM EDT

"Then let's say dude took off the RBF, and I still couldn't quite hit him... but then he's not doing any damage to me, and we stalemate"

That's fine, but what was the RBF replaced with? Sure, just gutting your strat and removing your tattoo and not replacing it with anything is a silly silly move...

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] April 23 2008 5:27 PM EDT

just as ranger is probably not the best example, neither am i. while i may not be high in the mpr rankings, i am the largest single minion in the game. when i go with a strategy that allows me to further concentrate the most xp one minion has, as i have done, that can get some pretty massive numbers.

someone lower in mpr would have to have fairly moderate evasion and amf or choose one of those to super-boost thus leaving themselves open to either magic damage or physical.

Tyriel [123456789] April 23 2008 6:18 PM EDT

"Hell, Dude could use a ToA, gain 1.5M (before Item boosting!) Dex over 331K (losing 5-PTH in the process) and be a hell of a lot harder for Ranger to hit!"

"That's fine, but what was the RBF replaced with? Sure, just gutting your strat and removing your tattoo and not replacing it with anything is a silly silly move..."

Okay, that's fine. But what are you going to replace your OFFENSE with? A mage? Well, now you can be killed by AMF and GA, so you need to train some HP and/or DM along with that DD. And you have to face the MsK, and the MgS, which, as Sut reminds us a lot, is going to be a huge detriment to your damage. Going tank instead? You still have to deal with GA, as well as EC and some pretty massive Evasions, along with Ax/Exbows. And you'll also have to worry about getting a weapon or two, getting gear, etc., all at a higher cost than the Elven + AoF (and maybe a Corn) of a RoBF strat.

And don't forget that you no longer have a super-massive Evasion and/or AMF, so you're now much susceptible to attack.

Making a better strategy than the RoBF + AMF/Evasion strategy isn't just simply about just changing the tattoo to a 'better' one. The RoBF is an offensive supplement (as well as a defensive aid) to strategies that might otherwise lack in offense.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 23 2008 6:55 PM EDT

This isn't about an all winning Strategy...

The RBF single minion can be Killed by CoC. A Mage can be killed by AMF. Etc, Etc.

This is purely about how much the RBF sucks as a Tattoo. That it provides minimal *anything* compared to every other Tattoo...

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 23 2008 6:58 PM EDT

"And don't forget that you no longer have a super-massive Evasion and/or AMF, so you're now much susceptible to attack."

Yes! Yes yu do!!!!

It's what I'm trying to show!!!

The Ultimate, single minion RBF gains curd all Evasion from his RBF! That's the point! The whole point!

331K from the Tatoo!

Replace it with *anything* else and his uber Evasion will still be uber! His 6M Joe stopping AMF will stil be 6M Joe Stopping AMF!

Adding 331K Evasion that isn't increased by Ranged modifiers nor items at udes level of play is insignificant. Easily replaced.

Tyriel [123456789] April 23 2008 7:01 PM EDT

Where are you getting your offense, then?

You need to have some XP in other stats in order to run a strat with any other tattoo. The only ones that come close are familiars, but those die easily to GA/AMF without any protection or DEs.

Tyriel [123456789] April 23 2008 7:02 PM EDT

"The RoBF is an offensive supplement (as well as a defensive aid) to strategies that might otherwise lack in offense."

That's what the RoBF is for, and that's what it does well. It allows you to have 100% of your XP in defensive measures, without having to worry about offense.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] April 23 2008 7:04 PM EDT

the non-familiar based nature of the robf is one of its powers.

active damage that isn't prone to all of the layers of damage reduction in game is another.

tie those to the ability to concentrate xp and, especially on high mpr teams or single minions you get the ability to stalemate, not win, against many teams you would be farmed by otherwise.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] April 23 2008 7:09 PM EDT

Actually GL is right. If you change the RoBF into a ToA that is enough str and dex to be effective. It would require no retraining. All you need to do is find a good weapon and it would still be an effective strat. Both the evasion and AMF would still be there and just as effective as with the RoBF.

three4thsforsaken April 23 2008 7:17 PM EDT

I don't believe RoBF is that powerful, but the way it has been used has been pretty darn effective. RoBF has certain properties that are very abusable, but unless they are abused it isn't a big deal. Constant damage, front to back, no retribution, constant damage reduction.

Nowadays, I feel ToE is the best tat, but the evasion RoBF strats, are definitely a very powerful specialized strats. They're growth is nothing to shake a leg at >.<

Tyriel [123456789] April 23 2008 7:22 PM EDT

It would NOT be as effective.

You forget the flat magic damage reduction of the RoBF. Your tank would be TOAST against any mage. Meaning you need HP, and a lot of it.

So much for not having to retrain, eh? ;)

There are other things to look at then, 'Does this strategy work with a different tattoo?'. A tank is MUCH more expensive to run than the generic RoBF team. They're vulnerable to more other spells and items. They need different gear to gain effectiveness (Evasion isn't quite the same without a 100% boost. Unless you want to give up BG, HoC, TSA...).

The RoBF allows a person to condense what would normally be a more complex, expensive, and vulnerable team into a single minion with extremely high stat(s) and super-boosting gear, all the while maintaining a constant offense that cannot be killed except by getting through a MASSIVE Evasion or a MASSIVE AMF and the flat reduction of the RoBF.

QBRanger April 23 2008 7:24 PM EDT


Do not forget about GA.
I tried the TOA and GA destroyed me. As well as DD spells that get 6 rounds to attack before I even get 1 hit in.

Or CoC which casts the same time as I start my attack.

No, the TOA is a very specialized tattoo only suited for missile round specialists.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 23 2008 8:18 PM EDT

LoL Ranger, I never said it was IWIN. ;)

Besides, I'm going to go the Ranged route with this, and use the all powerful SoD + Ex Shots. ;)

All I need train are HP, Evasion and AMF. Same as a RBF user. A large enough wepaon *will* cover any gaps in my STR/DEX, as that's what X and + are designed to do. ;)

Or use a Familiar and get it to appear behind you. No, you'll never, ever be immune to everything, not even the RBF does that.

The RBF was just the easiest way to get people to see the strength of concentrating XP on a single minion. ;)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 23 2008 8:21 PM EDT

"It would NOT be as effective."

You sure?

It's been more effective for me the moment I changed away form a RBF. You want to know why?

The largest downside with the RBF.

You cannot boost it's damage.

That means you're severly limited how far you can fight up, and what challenge bonus you can then achive. Which limits your growth.

Using a Weapon, I can strap on the largest weapon I can fit under my WA/ENC (on a single minion!) and then fight much father up.

I went from 30% odd CB to 100% right away. Better rewards, better growth.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 23 2008 8:23 PM EDT

"The RoBF allows a person to condense what would normally be a more complex, expensive, and vulnerable team into a single minion with extremely high stat(s) and super-boosting gear"

You can do all that without the RBF...

At 3M for a Tattoo, I expect it to prvode much much more than 331K Evasion and 600K Damage a round.

Hell I was htting 600K Damage per round with UC with a MTL far lower than 3M...

Tyriel [123456789] April 23 2008 8:46 PM EDT

Only 600k damage per round? 15m damage in melee not enough to win you the battle?

The amount of damage it does does not really matter. There is no difference between winning in the first round of melee, or the last round of melee. If the enemy tanks can't hit you, and the enemy mages can't damage you, the worst you get is a stalemate.

Yet, with my ~2m RoBF, a measly 400k damage per round, I don't stalemate. There may only be one or two people that I do stalemate (that are around my size, anyways). My average battles only take around 15 rounds for me to win.

"You can do all that without the RBF..."

Perhaps I should have been more specific:

With the RoBF, you can put all your XP into TWO stats on one minion, and still be a well-rounded team, capable of good clan-fighting, and still be invulnerable to the majority of the pitfalls of tanks and mages.

And what are you sacrificing in exchange for that? A little bit of extra damage? Sure, I may stalemate some of the upper teams (if/when I get up higher) with their ToEs, AC, and other layers of damage reduction, but stalemating =/= losing.

Sure, the spread damage of SoD + Exshot, FB, and CoC may be nice, but it doesn't make a difference whether or not RoBF has spread shot if you never die.

The only real weakness to the RoBF that I see (other than the 'pitiful' damage) is that its magic damage reduction isn't that large. Although I'm sure enough AMF (and a bit of HP) would solve that at least somewhat.

And if that 15m damage in melee from your 3m RoBF isn't enough, by all means feel free to add another damage source to your team. Perhaps a minion with Decay + NSC, or perhaps a mini-tank with a MsK or ELB.

Anyways, have fun seeing where that single tank of yours will go. I'll be interested in seeing the results.

Wizard'sFirstRule April 23 2008 10:31 PM EDT

GL, at below 1m MPR, any strat works perfectly. seriously. my 1/4 hp + 3/4 fb allows me to farm at 100% cb until 1m MPR.

QBsutekh137 April 24 2008 12:31 AM EDT

Tyriel, good point, except for one correction (in my opinion) -- the spreadfire of FB is not even on the same planet as that of explosive shot or CoC. Explosive shot has the early-fire advantage (but hits harder, splashes more, and can hit multiple times). CoC obliterates all of the lovely threshold-based things that Jonathan apparently holds so dear at this point. If I wanted to become Conundrum right now (little more to it than that, but that would be the gist), I would gain 2-3 people on my fightlist.

Doesn't matter that FB fires before CoC when having PL and TSAs that match the paltry damage done by FB are commonplace (AMF/MgS/ToE/RoBF). Your points are dead-on, I just have to say seriously, where targets are at a premium, FB's spreadfire is pretty much just a hindrance. The only reason I have targets at all (3-4 really juicy ones) is because of my DM. That's with the biggest FB in the game.

It serves its purpose, but it is nowhere near the same league as explosive shot or CoC.
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