The battle ended in stalemate after 30 rounds... (in General)
April 24 2008 1:49 AM EDT
Ah, the joys of evasion.
Karn's character at about 1.6M MPR, about 44% of mine.
Not using an EC or EB!!!
Score / PR / MPR: 2,091,626 / 2,425,375 / 1,655,308.
Imagine where his score would be with some AMF on his minion.
Can any tank in the game hit him?
Is this good for the game as a whole?
Just random thoughts for the day.
Maybe Jon really does want us to have dual damage type teams...
April 24 2008 1:55 AM EDT
I agree, it should take at least 60% of their MPR devoted to dodging your tank in order for them to dodge it.
Or maybe they should devote more. After all, we're talking about Evasion, but not about -literally- evading attacks. That's just overpowered.
I still Pwn him :P No worry here (smile)
April 24 2008 3:03 AM EDT
Dual Damage teams would make sense if you want to beat everyone...
Do you always stale with him or just sometimes?
April 24 2008 3:04 AM EDT
Thought I admit with +220 on your Morgul Hammer, I'd hope you'd be able to hit once in 30 rounds.
I cant say I'm surprised considering he is facing an effective evasion around 10 mil
April 24 2008 3:20 AM EDT
From my estimations, from item bonus's his evasion is about 8.3 million and then add the effect of the DBs
April 24 2008 3:33 AM EDT
It's neither here nor there I guess, but I can beat Karn's char in one round. I'm 500k MPR smaller, but I've been able to beat him for at least the last 200k MPR.
Yes, if there were some AMF on the char it would be harder, but it would need to be a pretty big AMF.
Not to second guess Jon, but I'd hazard a guess that the ability of mages to hit through any evasion is the balance.
However what do you do with evasion? Cap it so that it can't block over a certain PTH? Reduce the amounts bonus items can increase it? Stretch out it's levels so that current trained levels give you less evasion? Cut the defensive dex?
I've given up arguing this one, but hey I wouldn't like to be Jon right now having to work this one out.
I agree this focused kind of evasion is powerful, don't let the robf be used with evasion!
At most, the RBF is giving 355K unboosted Evasion. That what 4/5% of his total Evasion.
Making the RBF unable to be used with Evasion (I know I'm flogging a dead horse here, but I'll continue...), or remove the Evasion the RBF, or give the RBF an Evasion penalty (that isn't something silly like a MGS set to zero..) won't make a noticable impact at all.
Yeah but the Robf makes this strat possible, no other tattoo can use 85% focused evasion. I don't say evasion is overpowered only this kind of evasion.
And yes im actually saying that the robf needs the same penalty for penalties like the mgs for spells.
April 24 2008 5:42 AM EDT
I am with you JW about not wanting to beat this dead horse anymore, but at some point you have to go .. Huh!... I mean weapon at over +200... and melee and not able to hit.. ever!.. So basically this person can stop training evasion now .. because they have enough to never worry about any ranged or melee weapon ever hitting them.. that seems a bit crazy to me that at that mpr they can stop any tank no matter what size.
I don't care how hard a person cries rock, paper, scissor this is a bit too premature fora char to be unbeatable by any tank no matter what that tank tries to do. Koy could be another mil higher mpr and still probably stalemate.. because the mpr doesn't really matter.. because it still wouldn't help him hit.. this is jsut a bit overboard.
I'm not even asking or saying anything for me, which as a +220 bow user I will never and I mean never be able to hit someone like this because of the melee penalty to dex .. so the dex game is a losing thing for me, but I also have given up trying in that aspect.
My way of playing cb right now is to just hope people stay away from evasion, because if they do start training it and get it to a good lvl with elvens on then I will never hit them and my list will get smaller and smaller. lol. but oh well. such is the lot for trying to play a tank. haha
I personally am using as much encumberance as I can and in debt to my ears and actually over my weapon allowance and can't hit people so where exactly did the fix come? or did I miss something.... I mean there is now a weapon cap, lower weapon allowance and yet evasion didnt change much. if anything it's tougher to hit those pesky guys..
I have a feeling there will soon be less and less tanks playing and lots more mages... and the only reason you don't see more now, is because some are set in their ways like me and others just don't have the gear yet to switch. lol
maybe one day it will get a bit more fair in that regard, but yes i do say jon has a tough joba nd one i wouldn't want to have.
April 24 2008 5:48 AM EDT
Sox, what I forgot to add: given the ingredients in this particular little cake that is PTH/evasion (and how difficult it will be to fix without upsetting huge amounts of players - it'll either be too little a fix for tanks or too big a fix for mages. Come on, you know there's going to be whining...) I reckon Jon is waiting to see how his recent changes pan out. It needs a couple of weeks at least to see if something like that actually works out.
Yeah, I know it's been going on for months!
April 24 2008 5:59 AM EDT
But,... ahh. I'll just stop there.. no need really....
No really.. I will continue.. But, you can't seriously think that at that low a mpr that anyone should be able to nulify completely stop a 100 mil weapon? My bow is x4000 +220 and is right at 115 mil nw. Not counting the almost 2 mil mpr that I have ... all put into 3 mil hp, 2 mil str, 2 mil dx 1.2 mil dm and yet I will never hit that person... I could be 3 mil mpr and put the entire next mil of mpr into dex and I still probably would not hit this person at all.. EVER... doesn't that seema bit overboard. Yes jon is probably looking into it and yes probably tough if not impossible to fix, but I will tell you something.. Look at the ncb characters coming up... I have a feeling most of em that are serious aren't using weapons at all. I could be wrong and this all just guessing and goign by what I have seen, but I bet a lot more mages or RoBF chars than there are tanks of any kind coming up thru the ranks, and with results like this I can see why.
aah but with tanks comes NW and with NW comes cash and with cash comes the lack of it and with the lack of it comes mages :)
April 24 2008 6:20 AM EDT
I'm running a mage char for the first time in 3 years. I'm doing so because I wanted to do something different other than worrying about PTH and dex and ammo. But look at my last char: Monkey Business, which was a ToA tank/SoD team. Check out the history graph and you'll see that I was able to fight at a much higher score level for quite some time than I'm able to do with this char. My weapon at the time was only +101, and in fact for some of that time was a lot lower than that.
Now that might say more about the SoD than anything else. But I'm coming up against far more ways of taking me out. I have evasion now, as I did then. But it isn't as good as it was previously. Really, it isn't. It's still good, but it has to be boosted pretty high now. An evasion of (120) is nowhere near enough to be worth my XP investment at this level. AMF and mage shields and the ToE all take their toll.
I've always - despite running a tank - been pro-evasion. And, for the most part been supportive of the mage camp's claim to be worse off.
I understand how you feel; running a tank on in-game rewards and or loans is difficult, I did it for three years and it can be disheartening. But it isn't as easy as running a tank was for me.
April 24 2008 6:30 AM EDT
And no offense Sox, but I find it difficult to be too sympathetic for a tank when at 1.9 million MPR they have a 3 million MPR character on their fightlist.
Just because there is a 3 mil mpr char on someones fight list does not mean that that char was built to foil all other chars... or that it is built perfectly to stop anyone under its mpr. There is always a Scissor to anyones Paper, or Rock to your Scissors....
April 24 2008 7:04 AM EDT
DR, I agree. But I wish people here in CB would learn to make the most of what they have rather than crying over what they don't have or what somebody else has.
Sox has a fightlist that is mostly larger in MPR than he is. He's fighting incredibly high for his MPR, probably at the point where that MPR really counts for something, where a big MPR gap can actually hurt you most.
In real terms Sox is one of the most successful teams out there, without having to rely on something that may or may not be broken.
Now Sox obviously feels hard done by, and Ranger is always using Sox as an example of how evasion or the recent changes are hurting tanks.
I'm sick of hearing how negative the situation is. My god, the amount of that around the place is driving me up the wall.
And Sox, this isn't a personal comment on you. It's just the negativity in the forums sometimes just makes me wonder why people still play.
I'm going to go and eat. My blood sugar's obviously a bit low.
April 24 2008 7:20 AM EDT
Ranger (Can any tank in the game hit him?)
Swing and a miss,15 rounds and zippp. I don't mind the fact that Karn's character beats me. What I do mind is at almost identical Score/PR/MPR I don't hit once? Is it evasion or immunity!
April 24 2008 7:26 AM EDT
The battle ended in stalemate after 30 rounds of combat
April 24 2008 7:27 AM EDT
Of course if I don't kill him in Ranged, I'm screwed Dex wise.
April 24 2008 7:38 AM EDT
DX: 7,161,520 / 3,043,478
Still couldn't touch him by switching to EB/EG's.
"And no offense Sox, but I find it difficult to be too sympathetic for a tank when at 1.9 million MPR they have a 3 million MPR character on their fightlist."
It's an ED-reliant team with incredibly low net worth (once you factor out his tattoo...) and using a AoI'd MM as his primary damage dealer with a whopping 140 AC on one minion and less than a hundred on any of the others... Considering Sox uses a rather large DM (byebye EDs), a MsK (byebye MM), and has 6 rounds to fire a x4k +220 bow at full power while backed by 2.4m ST and BGs...
To make a team that better focuses on Dolphin's weaknesses would be quite difficult...
Far as the rest of the thread goes, evasion is wickedly powerful, and due to the large number of large tanks with high scores, it will continue to be. Perhaps there should be something to prevent the AoF's boost, as that often tends to be the straw that breaks the camel's back... But yes, I do believe that over 120m effective XP should be able to nullify 100m net worth. After all, a 800k IF on a 4 minion team can nullify his effective trained XP...
Furthermore, he could switch from all evasion to all AMF, and have every mage in the game on his list... To this you may say, "yeah, but every tank in the game would have him on their list..." To that, I say, "Take a close look at what you just did ;)"
April 24 2008 7:45 AM EDT
Dont know what the problem is - I get him in ranged
April 24 2008 7:50 AM EDT
I can beat him at just over 1M MPR and he's got the single largest stat in the game. Sounds like he found your weakness and he's choosing to exploit it while being able to be creamed by someone with 33% less MPR than him.
April 24 2008 7:57 AM EDT
Furthermore, it's not like he can beat you. What the heck are you doing fighting that low with your 8M ST and 1.7M DX anyway?
April 24 2008 8:03 AM EDT
Ranger is just stating that something seems a little of. Someone that small shouldn't under any circumstances be able to win, draw or stale someone that big.
April 24 2008 8:08 AM EDT
The evasion isn't that small though. The evasion is the biggest trained evasion in the game. Forget for a moment where that evasion sits, but shouldn't the BIGGEST trained stat of any kind be effective? If Ranger himself was the owner of that statistic nobody would be blinking.
April 24 2008 8:10 AM EDT
Actually it's not only the biggest evasion, but from what I can see it's the biggest trained stat in the game full stop.
April 24 2008 8:13 AM EDT
I've got this feeling that Ranger makes his way down the top evasion list once a week so he can repost this same thread once a week when he finds someone new he can't hit with his 8M ST and 1.7M DX.
Karn is running a character at 1.6M MPR with the single largest stat in the game which also happens to be the most effective way to combat a tank. His strat is in no way viable at the top and he has no means whatsoever to reach the upper ranks of the game. What's the complaint? That he seemingly created an ineffective strat just to piss Ranger off?
April 24 2008 8:18 AM EDT
There is one and only one problem with using Evasion with the RoBF and that is the fact that the RBF is immune to all indirect damage types. That is the problem.
Make the RBF at least a bit susceptible to backlash damage from AMF and GA and then no one could use the RBF without also training HP or AS. No more ridiculous XP concentration into Evasion.
I don't disagree Talion, but come on everyone;
"No more ridiculous XP concentration into Evasion"
You can do this *without* using a RBF...
not on a single minion you can't
"Cap it so that it can't block over a certain PTH?"
back when i had one of the highest dd's in the game and one character was reducing my magic damage down to 5 to 10% through various means, i decided caps were needed in the game. i believe that as we get higher in the mpr ranges, this will become necessary. funnily enough, i think adding caps, across the board, will probably not change the balance picture all that much.
in a way i also like the balance we have now. i think caps will turn it much more into a comparison of mpr to decide who wins. since i have been in cb there have been specialized teams that can perform very well against one counter strategy. in a sense if we have mpr blender, where the higher mpr always wins, then i do believe people would whine about the lack of spice!
it is a tough nut to crack but jon has shown some ingenious ways of dealing with challenges in the past. furthermore, we have been hearing for over 6 months now how we would be overrun by mages or robf strategies.
"it is a tough nut to crack but jon has shown some ingenious ways of dealing with challenges in the past. furthermore, we have been hearing for over 6 months now how we would be overrun by mages or robf strategies."
Little Anthony - A member of Carnage Blender since November 29, 2007. ;)
and no, it has nothing to do with this discussion... But he is less than 6 months old, and a mage, and top MPR, so I couldn't help but say it :P
one mage does not an overrun make.
i thought of a way to perhaps introduce caps without making cb too boring. what if we added skills that allowed us to have caps or insurance for certain character aspects. we could have a dd insurance skill, it would protect a certain amount of dd from reduction if trained at the proper ratio to our dd spell. there could also be a pth insurance skill as well as others.
instead of across the board caps that would benefit all, it would force a choice and increase rather than decrease strategy options. tanks might choose it if they really hate evasion, but it would make them weaker against other tanks. mages could finally have another choice rather than evasion. if we had one for strength, it could be more of a guarantee against encumbrance in battle.
i haven't thought of all the repercussions of such a system but wanted to throw it out before i forgot it!
April 24 2008 9:27 AM EDT
Well, I wish I only had to worry about stalemating with dudemus...soon I fear he will win... I am already having the occasional loss. Why? All because of AMF.
So if Evasion can make tanks whiff, and AMF can actively kill my team, what is the difference there? dude is specialized to take out mage teams, and Karn is specialized to be immune from tanks.
If someone simply trained 15 million HP and used ToE/PL/TSA to become immune from ALL damage, would people say HP is overpowered?
I don't have any answers, but for me, Evasion being large isn't the problem -- it's the binary nature of it. Folks who think that is OK, or rock/scissors/paper -- you have to explain to me then that if these binary and thresholdy game elements are so great (or at least acceptable), then why not just give us all colored weapons and colored armors and REALLY make this rock/scissors/paper? If that is not OK, then why is ANY aspect of the game where things suddenly turn completely on (CoC overwhelming a ToE team) or completely off (Evasion causing tanks to whiff entirely) OK? Be consistent.
Fight against binary game elements and thresholds! THOSE are what are not good for the game as a whole. I cannot think of a single reason why they need to be in play. Linear, differentiable (thanks, Obscurans! *smile*) game curves work every bit as well, and they carry with them a great deal less frustration and susceptibility to randomness.
April 24 2008 9:32 AM EDT
"That he seemingly created an ineffective strat just to piss Ranger off?"
It seems to me he is doing fairly well training 1 skill and using 1 tattoo with a splash of hp.
And doing it with just a couple of items + RBF.
C'mon Tez, put your personal feelings about me aside and truly think if this is a good thing for the game.
For 1 skill to completely nerf all tanks except Freed who uses upgraded ammo. And if Karn would put on some EB and EG, I betya Freed would whiff like the rest of us tanks.
Certainly CB is a rock/paper/scissors game. And that is the great attraction for me. However, is this really balanced?
My effective dex vs Karn is over 6M, with my EC lowering his dexterity. So my tank has really 8M strength and about 6.5M dexterity (effective). With a +228 MH I cannot even touch him.
Now all he does is need to learn AMF/HP and by the time he gets to 3+M MPR, who can beat him? He obviously does not need anymore evasion for quite a while as I only get a boost from a corn (EC) and elven gear (tank). Far lower then his boosts to evasion with the AoF etc..
And yes, I did try a TOA for 800k vs him and guess what? Whiff for 30 rounds.
April 24 2008 9:44 AM EDT
TOA is largely useless on large weapons (examples soxjr) due to the way PTH is added
April 24 2008 9:50 AM EDT
Hell yes it's ineffective.
Can he beat you? No!
Does he get creamed by mages much smaller than he? Yes!
He decided to used a completely one sided strat that leaves him open to mages while completely focusing on a utterly 100% concentrated tank defensive setup. He has more experience in one area than any other player has in any other aspect of the game. I'd hope damn right it's effective against tanks.
"So if Evasion can make tanks whiff, and AMF can actively kill my team, what is the difference there? dude is specialized to take out mage teams, and Karn is specialized to be immune from tanks."
The answer I had when I expressed the same thing was the amount of investment required.
Due to the great boosts from items Evasion can get (without the RBF...) you only need invest a smaller amount of XP to make Tanks whiff, than you do to make Mages get a 1.00 AMF effect.
Of course, Evasion can't kill your opponent, and no one loves stalemates...
I wonder what happens when Freed reaches 477...
I believe the point that Ranger's trying to make is that yes, Karn is highly focused, and yes, he's highly vulnerable to mages, but he's <b>44%</b> of Ranger's MPR. If he were at the same level, he could be training less than 44% of his EXP into evasion and the rest into AMF.
April 24 2008 10:01 AM EDT
He has 6.6M levels trained in evasion.
I have 5.0M levels trained in EC and 1.3M levels trained in dex.
I know that EC is 50% effective. But why is evasion so darn effective?
Yes, before ENC I understood. But IMO, this is a bit whack.
With that, I will stop and hope things balance out.
i have never had to figure out the cth formula and so i truly do not know the answer to this question. you have an amazing amount of strength on the grid and in respect to that a fairly small dex. at what point, if any, would training dex or swapping str for dex allow you to hit karn's character?
April 24 2008 10:34 AM EDT
I do have 3.4M levels of trained strength and 1.3 of dexterity.
However, I need all my strength just to be able to use my MH.
True, I can disenchant my MH a bit, however, Mikel posted that with over 7M dex (more then my native + EC) he cannot hit Karn.
I know this is an extreme example, but if Karn was a NCB and continued to grow, adding more HP and lots more AMF, he would be a truly unstoppable force.
Dude, imagine if you had a large tattoo at/near your MTL. How much better you would be.
April 24 2008 10:38 AM EDT
And this is vs Dudemus:
2 / 12 / 1,533,925
It is getting to the point where I soon will miss him completely.
April 24 2008 11:32 AM EDT
Thank you Tezmac, I love you!
He's freaking training ALL his MPR into a single anti-tank skill, and everyone with a tank character whines and complains that - gasp - it works! OH MY GOD, EVASION CAUSES HIM TO EVADE ME!
And worse yet, the all-powerful Ethereal Chains doesn't break the magical skill!!!
HOW CAN I WIN AT CB WHEN USD AND HIGH MPR DON'T LET ME BEAT EVERYONE???
Clearly, there will be no balance until Evasion stops letting so damn many people EVADE tanks.
I'm sorry cutie i didn't hear you I was looking at your picture...
April 24 2008 11:41 AM EDT
Damn those pesky kids
i guess no one likes, or perhaps even notice, my suggestion above regarding skill based caps being implemented rather than hard game caps?
Ranger needs all that str just to fit that big bad morg of his under the encumbrance lvls.
"i thought of a way to perhaps introduce caps without making cb too boring. what if we added skills that allowed us to have caps or insurance for certain character aspects. we could have a dd insurance skill, it would protect a certain amount of dd from reduction if trained at the proper ratio to our dd spell. there could also be a pth insurance skill as well as others.
instead of across the board caps that would benefit all, it would force a choice and increase rather than decrease strategy options. tanks might choose it if they really hate evasion, but it would make them weaker against other tanks. mages could finally have another choice rather than evasion. if we had one for strength, it could be more of a guarantee against encumbrance in battle.
i haven't thought of all the repercussions of such a system but wanted to throw it out before i forgot it!"
that is the suggestion to which i was referring, how would this negatively impact encumbrance?
skills also effect encumbrance, maybe for a small part but enough to make a difference.
that would be his choice though, to train a skill and be allowed to hit or to not train a skill and hit harder if and when he hits? classic rock/paper/scissors decision making.
April 24 2008 1:40 PM EDT
If I lower my strength how can I wield my Morg at +220 to hit him?
I would have to lower the PTH on it about 10 to be able to convert to more dex-but lower PTH may offset that elevated dexterity.
ENC was supposed to help, however, when a tank has to worry about fitting his weapon/armors and then worry about training his hp/st/dex/skill, and then worry about fighting someone that can put all their xp into evasion, what is the point?
The RBF lets them put all the xp into evasion until the top levels, when it is possible to be unhittable on a 4 minion character.
Yes, Koy cannot be defeated by Karn. But the fact that I cannot hit him, and Mikel cannot should scream "Unbalance".
"If I lower my strength how can I wield my Morg at +220 to hit him?"
if i put all my xp into evasion i could foil you and leave myself wide open to dd or likewise put it all into amf and be wide open to physical damage. that is my whole point, in a rock/paper/scissors scenario, as we have here, there is no stick of dynamite that obliterates them all!
what exactly am i not understanding? you are picking one strategy based on a tat and a skill that is pretty darn near the perfect foil for your strategy and then claiming it is unbalanced.
i offer a skill based solution that puts caps into the game for specific aspects and am told then you couldn't wield your weapon. is your goal to have an option against evasion (as well as other game mechanisms that can reduce things down to zero) or is your goal to be able to do it all without changing anything on your team?
April 24 2008 2:04 PM EDT
If I lower my strength how can I wield my Morg at +220 to hit him?
I would have to lower the PTH on it about 10 to be able to convert to more dex-but lower PTH may offset that elevated dexterity. "
You would have to lower the PTH? Gotcha, because you need x11,000 on a Morg for it to do damage.
April 24 2008 2:13 PM EDT
Unbalanced that neither you or Mikel can hit the single largest trained stat in the game? No, I think it would be unbalanced if you could hit it. That's a hell of a lot of XP. It should be super effective. Otherwise what's the point in any of us training stats if a big weapon can take it out. We might as well complain about everything that is super large. Like those super large weapons that still exist.
what is that btw? around 85 million xp?
April 24 2008 2:18 PM EDT
How much would that cost to buy as a minion?
it would actually be right at 80 million xp.
April 24 2008 2:22 PM EDT
Ok. I'm back to try this again. JW and dude... Look long term. He is now at a point that Ranger, Mikel, Myself can't hit him at all. So he can stop training evasion and start training say all AMF. He still is rediculously lower than us in mpr. Yes he has the highest trained stat in the game, but I can turn that around and say I have one of the highest nw weapons in the game shouldn't that be able to hit someone at least once with your thinking? Also if I add more + to my weapon the cost is amazingly high, but for every 1+ I add he just has to add another 1+ on his elvens, or a little more xp and I won't hit him again for... well forever... If you can't see where this is a bit overboard then nothing will change that fact.
On a last note, if he is smart with his char he can soon get to a point where nobody can hit him. All he has to do is spend the next 6 months training nothing but AMF. Then it's good game and all. :)
April 24 2008 2:25 PM EDT
Oh, you're totally right! That's why RoBF users down lower are also training Evasion/AMF and pwning everyone at and around their MPR...wait, no?....must be some mistake....nope, looks like CoC, as well as single FB, and MM don't have quite as much problem breaking through that AMF as you might think!
I do agree that RoBF's "perfect offense" is a huge problem.
However, Evasion is not. This is simply a case of 'Why the hell doesn't USD win this time?'
in which case, some kind of caps appear to be needed and thus my suggestion above. jon doesn't like hard caps so i thought skill based ones might go over where the others haven't.
April 24 2008 2:31 PM EDT
x11000 in the Morg costs 86,020,000; which is less than 50% of the NW of Ranger's morg
April 24 2008 2:35 PM EDT
OB. I didn't start this argument and personally could care less. I know there are people I never will beat and don't worry about it anymore so really there is no need to get all personal and condoscending about things. That being said, I might be wrong in how it will end, but I do also know that the combination of how this tat and evasion works is a bit overboard toward tanks. I haven't spent usd, but I have a usd weapon because of using my nub as best I could even with the % wrong and then working my behind off for over a year fighting and getting a debt at the right time. I never said I should beat everyone... who am I kidding. I get -3% to -5% challenge bonus and have for over 4 to 6 months now, so I do know alittle about how things work toward the middle to top end of the game and tanks are getting the tough end of things lately for sure.
My biggest problem with evasion then I'll be quiet is that sooner or later... everyone can have one and with enough mpr they can get it high enough to not let any tank hit them whereas there is only so high I can go with the + on my weapon.. What save for over a month of cb fighting to get 1 + .. I think in that month a person can get 1 more + effect from training the xp.. It is a fight I will never win and the higher and higher I go as other people are getting more and more xp the closer I am coming to realising that tanks won't be able to hit anyone pretty soon... This might be a year from now or whatever, but it will/can happen. Enjoy this argument for however much further it goes because I will bow out of this one as I have in others, mostly because any argument I say looks like it's about me when I just feel there is something not right with how its working... but until others see it or better yet jon sees it.. then its just the way it works :)
would 80m xp in dex overwhelm or be overwhelmed by 80m xp in evasion?
April 24 2008 2:49 PM EDT
^Yes, due to item bonuses granting about 50% more to the evasion
Ranged bonus, and all the NW needed to counteract the minus to hit and fit it under Encumbrance, which won't be that big due to putting all your xp into dex.
In melee, a 2HW would get a 33% chance to hit on top of the pth. Evasion would grant some ungodly minus to hit, be boosted by the AoF, and contribute to Encumbrance.
trained xp for trained xp though will evasion win out? not counting bonuses.
April 24 2008 2:55 PM EDT
I don't know a way of not counting the minus to hit, which the tank needs to keep up with, yet still stay under their ENC.
April 24 2008 2:55 PM EDT
I did not intend to be personal and condescending; however, your proposed notion that Dudemus will 'win the game' simply by training a big Evasion and AMF is ludicrous, and so I was a bit extravagant in my response.
And again, I don't think Evasion is quite the problem everyone thinks it is. With the exception of the RoBF tactic, one -CANNOT- train a massive enough Evasion to counter, say, a single ToA tank's DX. Most teams are split into 2/3/4 (most popular) minions, even, diluting it further. Tanks, on the other hand, can focus all their tattoos levels, EC from other minions, tuck money into their PTH (not 11,000 x, mind you, their PTH) and counteract it if they really are that desperate to fight Evasion targets.
And again, rock/paper/scissors: all that MPR is absolutely useless against mages.
April 24 2008 2:58 PM EDT
Just a point - I beat him without upgraded ammo - but yes maybe if some elven armour was inolved I would stalemate also
April 24 2008 3:01 PM EDT
Actually OB. Just to let you know... Most weapons at this end don't benefit from the ToA. So the only reason to use one is if you really want the STR and DX granted from it, but the PTH it adds isn't really helpful, which is why I changed to a ToE even though I'm one minion. Just wanted to put that out there to give everyone the information when they are thinking how a tank can hit these big evasions. :)
April 24 2008 3:07 PM EDT
... but I do take the point Ranger that he is nearly 600K less MPR than me and all he has to do is put a bit into Evasion and I would have to up my pth (currently +237 on the SoD) which would then encumber me atm.
April 24 2008 3:33 PM EDT
The PTH it adds isn't helpful?
I'm not sure I understand. In your attempts to hit an anti-tank skill, would not PTH be helpful? Do explain.
And the amount of extra DX it is capable of adding is quite helpful, especially if your tank is on a multi-minion team and needs that boost.
April 24 2008 3:47 PM EDT
The problem with the ToA is it 'only' adds a third of it's NW to the weapon PTH. Which with higher end weapons is not amazing. Although I couldn't say no to that bonus personally. The other problem with the ToA is it affords you no defense. Currently the majority of tank builds in CB are defensive, even the archer builds. The model from the top down is 'dig in and dig in deep'. Defense, defense, defense; with a big weapon to mop up the opposition when they wear themselves out on your defenses.
April 24 2008 4:45 PM EDT
"trained xp for trained xp though will evasion win out? not counting bonuses."
This is the point I have been trying to get across for weeks.
Evasion wins out.
Evasion get AoF + Elven gear as bonuses.
Dexterity only gets Elven gear.
EC only gets a corn.
Yes, the AoF makes EC more powerful, however it is still far less then the bonus one gets from it.
3M base evasion. Using a +10 AoF will give 900k more levels.
My EC is 3M effective. Vs that AoF I get 900k more benefit. All equal.
However, he adds 1.2M xp into evasion and gets 100k levels. I add 1.2M to EC and get 60k dex reduction. So he grows faster then I can nerf.
Same with dexterity.
IMO, the AoF is one of the biggest reasons for this problem. Get rid of its bonus to evasion, leave it for other skills and things will be better balanced.
I do not find it unbalance. With an investment like that deticated to just dodging attacks, he should dodge. The problem I see is that he can invest that much exp and still win because of the nature of RoBF.
When I really think about it, if there was no RoBF, you wouldn't have half as much trouble hitting him.
April 24 2008 4:55 PM EDT
3/4ths, I agree 100%.
If someone uses all their xp in evasion to dodge my blows, that is their choice.
But to be able to also have an attack, which is not trivial, not subject to GA/MgS/AMF, is way too powerful.
If your dodging for 30 rounds, who cares if you "only" do 400k damage a round, since you have 25 melee rounds to kill them at your leisure.
Unless the defender has a TOE or high AC, it is not a fair fight, at least for tanks.
Now all the mages love this, I think it's pathetic.
April 24 2008 4:57 PM EDT
THERE we go, I can agree with you now Ranger
EVASION is -NOT- the problem
The RoBF's "perfect damage" is
April 24 2008 4:59 PM EDT
it's so nice to see a little bit of agreement :P
What if the damage was increased on the RoBF but it was able to be returned by GA? Just an idea :)
April 24 2008 5:14 PM EDT
Once we get into 3M or so MPR, a 4 minion character can devote enough xp into evasion to nerf all but 1 or 3 tanks in the whole game.
When you get about 229 effect and 6M level, you effectively overwhelm any potential tanks dexterity and weapon PTH.
While a tank on a multi minion character has to train HP + Str + dex + ?archery/skill, an evasion minion can only train evasion.
April 24 2008 5:15 PM EDT
Until about 3M MPR, it seems most of us are in agreement.
Do you honestly think that the RoBF is a problem WITHOUT evasion or a massive AMF in play? If not, why not go straight to the problem? Give evasion an RoBF damage penalty, and have RoBF/AMF not stack the way they do now.
April 24 2008 5:27 PM EDT
Ranger, I tend to agree because of one other thing -- it isn't even just about tanks... Add one one other concentrated spell -- AMF, and now you have a way to evade all damage from tanks, kill off mages, and still deal damage.
dude's character is almost there... I don't think real tanks have much of a problem with dude's Evasion, and it is only something a single-minion could do, but what else can kill the thing? Wouldn't even need nearly as much HP if the RoBF were big enough to stop all DD and the Evasion made all tanks miss...
Seems like someone said that before, though... I brought up the fact that RoBF still seemed way too powerful after this last change month, but I didn't think anyone really cared at the time... I must have been wrong about that one. *smile*
As dude has said before, though, the RoBF makes single-minions viable. But by mentioning that, I might curse it since Jonathan has said before he thinks single-minion teams are a bit un-fun. I wonder why he made such a perfect tattoo for them then?
A single minion can stack Evasion and AMF. Evade all Tank with Evasion, Elven Gear and an AoF. Then defende versus Mages and kill them with AMF and AMF backlash.
This is without the RBF.
The RBF helps, but it isn't the root of the problem.
The RBF gives you a un renturnable source of damage, but it is 'neglegable'. It can't be boosted. You can't fight up with it half where as decent as a DD or a Weapon.
A ToA would help. A Familair would help. In differnet ways to a RBF. You would be able to fight up 'better' but would have to be more choosy with your list. As high AMF would counter your DD familair, or High Evaders would cause you a problem with your ToA based weapon stats.
But you can still be a perfectly viable EVasion + AMF monster, able to make all tanks whiff and cause all mages to cry.
That's the problem.
Not the RBF.
Seriously, ignore the RBF and we can get to the root fo the Problem.
A single minion can stack Evasion, Elven gear and the AoF to neuter all tanks. They can *also* train AMF to scupper all Mages.
Really, that's what everyone should be focusing on.
But then it doens't stop there. It's not endemic to single minions only.
Split that strat into two minons. Have a front Evaison, Elven and AoF Evader. Have a rear AMF + Corn enchanter.
Two minions doing exactly the same thing, with exactly the same XP concentration.
If you ask me, the main problem is there's no "counter" to EO's. There's nothing to counter AMF or EC. And the bonus the AoF gives is too much. It should give +2% per plsu, and +4% per plus to enemies EO.
Then we can go back to the;
USD Spender: "My Massive weapon can't hit this Evasion! Unfair!"
Non USD Spender: "I need Evasion to counter your USD. Or you bank balance wins CB! Unfair!"
for the record, I think it should be possible to invest enough XP into Evasion to make every single Tank in the game wiff. But by doing so, you shuold leave yourself open to DD.
I also think your should be able to invest enough xp into AMF to make every single Mage cry, but by doing so, you leave yourself open to Tanks.
Giving for example Evasion a penalty to EO's wouldn't work to solve this. Nor would making an AMF caster easier to hit by Physical attacks.
But that's something for Jon to think about. ;)
that is exactly what i am going for, amf until mages take me off their list, then back to evasion until i lose the few tanks hitting me. i may not be able to beat them, but they will not be able to farm me as well.
caps would stop all of this! one way or another i believe caps need to be implemented. the robf/evasion issue exemplifies it, but the mage shield and dd damage reduction layers are indicative of the same base issue.
April 24 2008 6:59 PM EDT
GL... one more time for good measure.. The reason the RoBF keeps being brought into this discussion is because in it's nature it allows a person to specialize in the evasion and the amf or whatever without having to put too much into the one stat that is most important... HP... you barely need any hp .. so therefore you can only train the spells needed.. if someone uses a different kind of tat they have to put more xp into hp to live long enough for the evasion and amf to work and still kill the other guy...
If that doens't help to understand why the RoBF keeps getting brought into the equation then nothing will... but really you can't complain about one without bringing int he other.. sorry just can't do it. Thanks and have a great day :)
April 24 2008 7:26 PM EDT
It really seems to me you have a poor visual of why the RBF is huge in this thread.
The damage from the RBF is NOT negligible!!!
400,000 damage a round (at a 2M level), not subject to any modification other then endurance/protection/AC is a huge thing. Well of course, it is vulnerable to a larger RBF--duh! And going on and on for 25 rounds. That is 10M overall damage. More then enough to kill all but the best defensive setups.
TOA tanks have little AC to begin with and are prime targets for RBF users. Just look at Beee's character. And TOA tanks are supposed to be the all hitting, all offense weapons of CB. They do crap vs evasion/RBF minions and do nothing but fry.
Add some AMF and you need to do even less damage overall as the mage injures himself.
The RBF allows characters not near the top to concentrate their xp into a skill that all but nerfs tanks and then add to AMF to counter mages.
Ranger, come back to that when you're hitting once per round for 400K versus a low AC target.
Do I *need* to bust out the maths again? And IF (attacking in Mele, with no HoE, cuz no Junction) would do on avergae 2M per round compared to the RBF 400K.
AMF can reduce that, but you'd need to face a 80% AMF effect.
UC at an equal level is easily able to beat 400K per hit, lt alone per round.
A RBF does negliagble damage when compared to every other equivalent damage source. It's plain Maths Ranger....
"If that doens't help to understand why the RoBF keeps getting brought into the equation then nothing will... but really you can't complain about one without bringing int he other.. sorry just can't do it. Thanks and have a great day :)"
Sure. If you're taling aobut 20HP RBF minons. It's the *only* set up that lets you do that.
But it's *not* (Hell I'm seriously thinking of selling every damn item I have in the game to purchase a large single minion and retrian them to only Evasion and AMF to show everyone...) the signle and only way to run a large Evasion + AMF team.
It's just *easy*.
"AMF can reduce that, but you'd need to face a 80% AMF effect."
I feel the need to clarify.
An 80% AMF effect versus the 2M IF will reduce it ot doing the same damage as a RBF(plus kill it due to backlash damage, but that a totally different topic).
Now how large must the AMF be to hit 80% versus a 2M DD?
I think we can safely say that a 2M IF will *always* deal more damage than a 2M RBF. Buy a noticable amount.
April 24 2008 7:43 PM EDT
"But it's *not* (Hell I'm seriously thinking of selling every damn item I have in the game to purchase a large single minion and retrian them to only Evasion and AMF to show everyone...) the signle and only way to run a large Evasion + AMF team. "
Without RoBF, how are you planning to win anything?
I'll fight Mages and AMF backlash them to death. While making all Tanks Wiff.
(Although I'll also use a Tattoo to csue Damage, but it won't be a RBF...)
I might actually have enough to fund this. Sad as it would be to get rid of my stash.
Don't forget that you will need quite a bit of HP to beat those mages.
RoBF may not be the only way to run a single minion with Evasion and AMF, but it is most certainly the most efficient strategy to do so (and one of the, if not THE, most efficient and effective strategy in CB).
April 24 2008 7:49 PM EDT
"I'll fight Mages and AMF backlash them to death. While making all Tanks Wiff. "
And if the mage team has an enchanter?
You see, with RoBF, you don't have to target a particular setup but to avoid stronger RoBF teams and possible single FB mage.
April 24 2008 8:11 PM EDT
GL, it's not anyone.
The RoBF provides perfect damage, first of all. No retaliation, consistent blows, taking no GA from it. That's perfect.
SO, that frees up a bunch of decisions the rest of us make.
AMF is more effective because of the DD reduction. Use AMF, and it does THREE things:
1. Reduces blows.
2. Provides backlash
3. Eliminates even MORE damage because it is threshold-based. Point 1 leads to a more powerful point 3.
Yes, the first two can be done by anyone. The third CANNOT, and makes point 1 all the more powerful.
On the Evasion side:
1. Eliminates all physical damage.
2. Still provides a damage dealer.
NOW, combine the suite of points. It allows concentration. Which makes the suite of product a feasible reality in the first place. A tight, circular strategy (always the strongest!) It starts with the perfect damage, gets augmented by the flat DD reduction, and finishes with some Evasion help.
ToE is passive
ToA adds nothing to damage reduction/
DD familiars can kill themselves on AMF.
Hal is useless. Poor Hal!
Jiggy, well, he's always goot stuff, but his damage is too negligible and he doesn't provide the DD reduction or Evasion augment on the minion itself. That's key.
That's all I have right now, I need to drink more beer and eat fajitas.
Go drink beer and eat! I'm off to bed! :P
I know the RBF damage is perfect, and I feel it's a good additon to CB. ;) But it's perfectness comes with drawbacks.
I've posted too much about this. Looks like I'll have to get in there, put my money where my mouth is, and see if it can actually be done. That is a single minion without a RBF having enough Evasion to make all the Tanks wiff, and enough AMF to make all the Mages cry.
I'll work on the teams offense after that. ;)
Might not be the best killer, but if everyone else in the game doesn't want to fight you, I'll feel the job's been done. ;)
April 24 2008 8:25 PM EDT
Sounds like a plan!!
April 24 2008 9:10 PM EDT
If I started from the start, I would just be dude's char from the start. It's perfection.
I see the drawbacks, it's just a little weak in a lot of things. But it is dead on in others.
Fajitas are down, enough of the beer, I am off to being carted to the hotel! Tomorrow it will just be iPhone BA burnage. *smile*
I think everyone is right on this topic, in one way or another, so I think it is a good thread...
April 24 2008 11:21 PM EDT
I agree with Sut.
If I were to start a NCB, saving money to buy BA and later minions, I would do it like Dude is now.
FB single minion mage to start. Grow with a ROE as long as possible till you cannot get a 100% challenge bonus.
Once you stop getting that high a bonus, change to the evasion + RBF and add hp/amf as needed.
It is the most powerful way to climb the ladder.
I cannot prove it is better then how Little Anthony did, but I know it is far cheaper on the equipment (only moderate sized AoF/elven gear needed). And you grow your tattoo with the NCB as well.
I think evasion is that powerful, especially used on a single minion using a RBF.
Like Sut just said:
"I see the drawbacks, it's just a little weak in a lot of things. But it is dead on in others. "
That sums it up in a nice gift wrapped box.
April 24 2008 11:28 PM EDT
"Once we get into 3M or so MPR, a 4 minion character can devote enough xp into evasion to nerf all but 1 or 3 tanks in the whole game."
Is that because we've gotten to 4M or so MPR, or another reason?
And yeah, the RoBF by design is just overpowered. Not singularly because of any one attribute of the tattoo itself, but simply due to the potential combination with AMF and Evasion, and the ability to reduce damage to 0.
....Nonetheless, I would like to point out again that even if he put 70% of his EXP into AMF, when he reached FTW or Conundrum's MPR he would not win ;)
There's bear doo in my bowl of strudel pie... =/
Sorry... That may have had nothing to do with this thread, but I was trying to reply by saying something that hasn't already been said... Far as this issue goes, we've run out long ago, so I'm all out of related information...
Guys, I seriosuly wouldn't restart as a single RBF user. Please believe me when I say it lmits your Challenge Bonus and therefore bonus time growth.
Just by training a pure DD or using a weapon you can easily get to 100% challenge bonus and grow a lot quicker.
April 25 2008 3:37 AM EDT
ROE is the balancing factor
Food for thought after your iphone burning. ;)
"ToA adds nothing to damage reduction"
The Dexterity it gives is defensive. ;) it'll stack with Dex increasing items and provide you more Defensive Dex to Dodge Tanks.
I used 50% for the ToA aobve, that's wrong. I was confused. It's 33%. (50% is STR).
So a 2M RBF gives you 10% Defensive Dex (and whatever effect that get's boosted up to) uneffected by Gear.
A 2M ToA gives 33% Defensive Dex, boosted by items, but no -pth effect.
I feel that the extra 23% Dex boosted by items, outwieghs the -pth effect gained from the RBF.
ToA doesn't help with DD reduction, but that's when you use a 2 minion set up with a MGS! :P
April 25 2008 3:46 AM EDT
why not 2 minion with MGS lol...
April 25 2008 7:14 AM EDT
"I feel that the extra 23% Dex boosted by items, outwieghs the -pth effect gained from the RBF. "
Again, let us chat about the AoF and its 3% per + bonus to evasion.
And while the TOA gives 33% of its level in dexterity, it also gives you little AC. So if you miss the uber evasion in missile rounds, knowing you cannot use a decent melee weapon due to ENC, you then become toast.
Lets do Ranger.
1: The RBF Evasion *is not* boosted by the AoF.
2: As above "And the bonus the AoF gives is too much. It should give +2% per plus, and +4% per plus to enemies EO." Which would let (among other things) EC reduce the same amount of Dex as the AoF increases.
"And while the TOA gives 33% of its level in dexterity, it also gives you little AC. So if you miss the uber evasion in missile rounds, knowing you cannot use a decent melee weapon due to ENC, you then become toast."
So how much more AC versus Physical attacks does the RBF give in comparison?
April 25 2008 9:34 AM EDT
"So how much more AC versus Physical attacks does the RBF give in comparison?"
However, who needs AC vs physical when with evasion you never get hit?
Now, which gives more Physical defense?
1: 10% of Level as defensive Dex, not boosted by items, which includes a -pth portion
2: 33% of Level as defensive Dex, boosted by items, which doesn't include a -pth portion
Seeing as the Minion has Evasion tranied naturally and usually EG and EB, I'm betting on 2. ;) Especially given an example by one of the largest Evaders that option 1 gave -5pth.
April 25 2008 10:07 AM EDT
Gentleman you are missing the point, the power in the RoBF is not in the evasion it provides.
"why not 2 minion with MGS lol..."
Two mage shields means no ToA as they were discussing
I honestly think this notion that Two mage shields is in any way more powerful is completely wrong
You gain more by making the other minion an enchanter or something (For DD protection this would be AMF),
which would be more effective than a second shield.
RC, I'm not missing the point. I'm talking specifically about Evaison here, and what the RBF provides for that. Not it's DD reduction, not its unreturnable damage and not the strategies you can build with one.
I've got my own thread for the 'power' of the RBF in relation to other Tattoo's. ;)
Evasion is powerful, and I'm trying to get people to see Evasion is powerful *without* a RBF. That actually the RBF now provides minimal Evasion (which would change if it, along with trained evasion, was increased by Elven Gear and the AoF).
Making a RBF have skill penalies is not the answer. The RBF does nothing really for the Evasion on a minion wearing it.
It's DD reduction (which is stupid, and I've said that form day one) and it's unreturnable damage are bigger bonuses. Hell they're what give the RBF any use at all. To be honest, (And this sohuld probably go in my thread) I feel the RBF can't compete with the other tattoo's unless (and I hate to suggest this) you give it an Aura.
But I do feel it's DD reduction needs to be changed.
What on earth makes you people think that the RoBF supplies defensive dex?
10% of it's level as trained Evasion...
Hmm, I figured that wasn't literal evasion, but DB-style minus-to-hit a la what the semi-old RoBF was supposed to do.
If so, and a 2M RBF only gives -5pth, its sucks even more.
And everyone should be begging for it to be boosted...
April 25 2008 10:40 AM EDT
After further thought regarding your post; honestly, I don't think the RoBF is overpowered, maybe somewhat, but it lets you build a very focused team, which means high challenge bonuses, but only versus those that are weak to it. I find the strategy in single minion evasion, rather boring and simple, but aside from that I don't know what I'd change. I think you are right that evasion is the problem because you don't see those with the RoBF putting everything in AMF. I would not make the RoBF more powerful as you suggested in your other thread though, I think it's about where it should be. I don't have a problem with the DD Reduction because it's clearly much less than the ToE.
Even focussing on Tanks, with a RBF you don't get high Chalenge bonuses. :( Large Wepaons and large DD help you fight higher for larger bonuses than the RBF ever does.
All the RBF does is make people less inclinded to attack you back. And everyone hates a stalemate.
The DD reduction is stupid because it's a direct subtraction applied after all other reductions. Turning the -260,000 DD damage into a lot larger.
Plus it's one of the only ways to reduce damage to zero, and no one likes that. ;)
So like I said, make RoBF reduction come before other forms of magic reduction.
Oh hell yeah! I've suggested that from it's release! ;)
Having a direct subtraction at the end of mutliple percentage layers of reduction is silly. ;)
Agreed. ;) Until recently I tohught it was a percentage based reduction. But at least Endurance is capped and will at most only reduce damage by 75%...
April 25 2008 11:06 AM EDT
I would love to be able to do 25% damage to Karn's character, but alas, I can not even hit it.
April 25 2008 11:35 AM EDT
Whereas I can kill it in 1 round. Swings and roundabouts.
"All the RBF does is make people less inclinded to attack you back. And everyone hates a stalemate."
i have been saying that for ages, maybe folks will listen to you. the only other thing that it has done for me is higher score, score means nothing though right? i gained a few higher on my list and lost a few lower, pretty much a wash. the score increase comes from being farmed much less.
April 25 2008 11:47 AM EDT
Less farming = more clan points = higher clan bonus for not just you, but your clanmates=less clan bonus for other clans.
So it effects plenty of people.
April 25 2008 11:49 AM EDT
But I thought being farmed less is already a big plus? Considering how easily CP can be lost.
for a single clanner, like when i originally switched in september, it can make a difference. this time it has made little to no difference in my clans points as we were staying fairly high regardless.
"Less farming = more clan points = higher clan bonus for not just you, but your clanmates=less clan bonus for other clans.
So it effects plenty of people."
is this an admission of the uberness of having so many high level characters in one clan such as br as many people thought in the past or does it only hold true for robf users?
April 25 2008 12:13 PM EDT
"But I thought being farmed less is already a big plus? Considering how easily CP can be lost."
In some cases, it's a bug ;) *cough!*Nem*cough!*
April 25 2008 12:24 PM EDT
It certainly holds true for both clans like BR and RBF users that cannot be farmed as they usually would if evasion/RBF was not uber powerful.
in all truthfulness regarding clan points it would like equate to a steady .2 to .4 percent average over several months, as would the bonus br gets. again the only major difference would be seen with solo clanners and it would likely be less than 5 percent average boost in that case and possibly as low as 2 percent.
"Even focussing on Tanks, with a RBF you don't get high Chalenge bonuses. :( Large Wepaons and large DD help you fight higher for larger bonuses than the RBF ever does."
Money -> Mouth.
I'd also like to point out the 'large' before 'weapons' and 'DD'. Not everybody has large amounts of cash to spend, and with DD you need to balance between killing and living. With the RoBF, it's all about living.
Already did it.
Went from 30% CB with RBF to 100% with ToA and rented SoD.
Want another example? Ask Johnnywas how he did when he switched from his RBF...
April 25 2008 6:54 PM EDT
ToA/SoD got me much better rewards, hey CoC/ToE did the same. Some people have had great success with the single minion RBF, but I found it got me so far and then no further. It's a little bit like single UC; unless the damage dealing part of the equation is huge it's wimpy.
The RBF guys who have climbed high in score have generally done so because they're not getting farmed any more. With the SoD I climbed pretty high because I was doing damage. People might not remember on my last char Monkey Business (ToA/SoD) I was sitting at 1.1 million MPR and had a 3 million MPR char on my fightlist. Now that can happen with an RBF, but it's not exclusive. I had a large evasion (one of the top 20 at the time) and a weapon capable of killing a much larger opponent within melee.
Okay, fine then. Don't nerf Evasion, and don't nerf the RoBF (or even buff it, since that seems to be what you want, GL).
I'll continue using it until I see something better.
Hope you like being a mage.
Evasion is the Problem.
Buff the RBF.
I'm going ToA SoD Evasion Tank atm...
oddly enough... might the real problem be the xp per point switch?
No doubt it's had a hand, and I'm kinda sad the way that figuring out of two smallers thigns were more bang for your buck than one large thing, due to intiial cheaper costs.
But there needed a change to make DD damage linear to Tanks. :/
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