Elven Boots vs Elven Cloak (in General)
June 5 2008 5:24 PM EDT
I was taking a good long look at both these items today. They both do the exact same thing, the only significant differences are the item slot they fit on, and the boots have a natural 10 AC, while the cloak only has a natural 4 AC.
However, somethiing really confused me. Blacksmithing a level on the cloak is MUCH more expensive than blacksmithing the boots! To get from +10 to +11 on the Elven Cloak, I would have to pay over $800,000. However, to raise my Elven Boots from +18 to +19, it only costs me $112,000.
So my question is, is this a gross oversight in the balancing of the gear, or is there a reason for this discrepency that I'm missing?
You said it yourself. There's a difference in base, and the higher the base, normally the lower the upgrade cost.
June 5 2008 5:31 PM EDT
The base has nothing to do with what the + actually does on the gear though. The base is flat armor, while the + is effects on your character. Or does the game not differentiate?
June 5 2008 5:33 PM EDT
The base has nothing to do with what the + actually does on the gear though. The base is flat armor, while the + is effects on your character. Or does the game not differentiate?
No, the base does not affect the enchantment of the gear. The higher the base, the cheaper it is to get the gear to a higher level. For example, 1M will get you say a +8 EC or a +20 EB. So that 1M will buy you an extra 8% DX from the EC, or an extra 20% DX from the EB.
I think that, partly, it limits the amount of DX/Skill boost you can get. For example, it costs about 6 mil (I think) to get EBs to around +32, +33, or something like that. If you could spend 6 mil each on your EBs, EGs, and EC, and get them all to +30-something, you'd have almost 100% DX and Skill boost. And that's pre-AoF, if you've got that on. EBs can work for anyone to get a decent (+25-+30) boost, EGs can add some on top of that, and then if you really want to up your DX and don't want to use a tat (or can't), you can throw on an EC for another 13% or so. It gives you options. Maybe someone only really wants around 20% extra DX, from EGs and EC, and then wears Displacement Boots.
The other thing is that, typically, higher base AC items upgrade more easily. If I'm not mistaken, EGs, which have 3 base AC, upgrade even more expensively than the EC, which has 4. The Adam has 40 base AC, and is easy to get up to 100 total, because +60 is only like 4mil or something. The MCM, though, probably costs around 4mil to get up to around +50, and then it's only at 78 total AC. I guess you could think of it as adding one plus on the EBs improves it by 10% from base. You can get it up to +30 before it gets real expensive, meaning you've upped it to about 4 times its basic goodness. With an EC, though, upping it 12 points gives you the same ratio. And since there are less increments (i.e. 12 points instead of 30), the upgrade prices are divided into larger chunks.
Boots are in general capable of much higher upgrade levels than cloaks, and thus the boot slot is more valuable.
June 5 2008 5:42 PM EDT
am i the only one that thinks that cloaks should be given something to bring them on par with the other slot, in way of raw power?
Just checked the wiki:
Adamantite Cuirass to +60 is only 2mil. The same amount of money will only get you +45 on an MCM (100 total AC vs. 73).
In this scenario, it costs 2mil to up the AC by 1 1/2 times its base AC level, and it costs 2mil to up the MCM about 1 1/2 times its base AC. I think this merits some investigating, maybe. Except that we basically already have all the values in the wiki, so I'm not sure what new information we would get out of comparing upgrade costs on things...
June 5 2008 5:44 PM EDT
Some pieces of armour are so supposed to be better than others, you could just deal with it. It wouldn't make much sense to have all types of gear have the same upgrade curve.
June 5 2008 7:04 PM EDT
"Some pieces of armour are so supposed to be better than others, you could just deal with it. It wouldn't make much sense to have all types of gear have the same upgrade curve. "
It would make perfect sense. Not saying to make all gear the same thing, and thus, a carbon copy of each other. But something seems out of balance when something that already has worse stats (I.E. 4 armor on EC vs 10 armor on EB) costs MORE to upgrade, and doesn't have any extra stats to make up for the inferiority of the piece.
I may be the only one that feels this way, but if a unique gear piece is inherently inferior simply due to armor level, it seems to me that they should get a bonus elsewhere to bring them up to par with other unique gear.
For example, Elven Gloves are base AC 3 (even less than the cloak) which means that the upgrade cost is going to be ridiculously high. Which is why HGs, TGs, and even BGs are more desirable for that gear slot. Since there are so many pieces of Elven Gear that you can put in other slots, the loss of the EGs aren't a huge dent in those stats, because it's such a massive cost in gold for so little return. So, why not make them on par with the other gloves by adding another stat to them, making it worth the extra gold expenditure?
Cloaks are unloved and will likely stay that way. The only cloak that ever had any power was the CoBF.
The power of Elven gear is already boosted, it raises two stats at once (AND ADDS AC!)... the only other item to really do that (outside of the ToA) is the AoF.
June 5 2008 7:43 PM EDT
"The power of Elven gear is already boosted, it raises two stats at once (AND ADDS AC!)... the only other item to really do that (outside of the ToA) is the AoF. "
Yeah, well we already know the problem with evasion that stems from the elven gear, but that's a different matter altogether.
There are also more skill/dex boosting items than any other category outside of plain old AC...
meanwhile I'm busy trying to get Jon to create an evasion busting Helm.
June 5 2008 7:49 PM EDT
Greyfeld, not to be argumentative, but in one post it seems like you want the elven gear (EC for example) to be given more of a boost, then in your last one it seems like you're suggesting that the elven gear is overly powerful in boosting evasion. Maybe thats why the elven gear aside from the boots are seemingly lower in stats, because added together they can up different stats pretty considerably.
June 5 2008 7:57 PM EDT
"Greyfeld, not to be argumentative, but in one post it seems like you want the elven gear (EC for example) to be given more of a boost, then in your last one it seems like you're suggesting that the elven gear is overly powerful in boosting evasion. Maybe thats why the elven gear aside from the boots are seemingly lower in stats, because added together they can up different stats pretty considerably."
My original statement about boosting the EC and EG's were just an example of a much wider problem. Since those are currently the gear types I'm working with, that's what I used for my example. But if you want a different example, the disparity between the blacksmithing costs of the Alatar's Gloves and Cloak of the Istari is a similar issue. The cost of blacksmithing both items is vastly different, even though you're getting the exact same increase in +DD, and the piece of gear that costs more to upgrade (the gloves in this case) gives nothing to the wearer for the extra money invested. All because the cloak happens to have a measly 6 base AC.
So no, I wasn't saying the elven pieces need to be buffed... as a matter of fact, there needs to be some tweaking done to bring evasion into line, and i'm not sure if that lies with tweaking the current elven set, or messing with the ability itself.
Why does it matter whether or not the upgrade cost on two items that fulfill the same purpose in different armor slots are different?
Eventually, it will be cheaper to get one more point on your EG than on your EB or EC. All 3 together provide a bigger boost at a cheaper cost to the stat they boost than less than 3 of them. You give up the ability to wear other items (Like DB instead of EB, AG/NSC instead of EG, etc.) to boost your stat further. There are several stages of Skill/DX boosting items, so you can therefore choose to give up a small, medium, large, or huge (in the case of AoF) amount of boost in that category for a similarly sized boost in another category.
Anyways, that probably has nothing to do with this topic, but Last Comic Standing is on now, and I'm missing it. :P
June 5 2008 8:40 PM EDT
Well, the reason, in my mind, is that if you equalize them to have equivalent stat costs, you have more gear versatility. you don't have to pick the same setup as everybody else, because you can mix and match your pieces... you open teams up for more gear builds. Seems like nothing but a good thing to me.
Boosts would seem to have a better effect on mobility, seeing as they are on your feet/legs than a cloak would on your back, no? "The more expensive the shoes, the faster you run" The "inferiority of the piece" stems from the fact that Body armor > Shield > Leg Armor > Cloak > Helm > Gloves > Amulet in terms of protection...
Only thing I don't entirely get is how the thing protecting your head gives less protection than that protecting your legs, or even a cape :P
Theres also the question of how boots help against an overhead blow or how the cloak helps when your are attacked from in front, but that's another matter all-together :P
with equalization of upgrade costs and effects, mixing and matching would have far less effect than it does now... The only major difference would be the slots and names of the items...
June 5 2008 9:27 PM EDT
hatch, since the CML are so much stronger than my HoD, i'm gonna wear them on my head and just put the HoD on one foot.
thats how i roll.
June 5 2008 9:36 PM EDT
Thehatchetman > What I'm talking about isn't necessarily make every piece the same cost (I.E. EGs and EBs cost the same to blacksmith). Rather, if the cost IS going to be larger, there should be something extra you're getting from the extra cost. When you're getting the same upgrade on one piece of gear, that you are on the other, paying over 100x the price for one of the pieces is a bit ridiculous, especially when you really have no other gear alternatives for that slot.
Essentially, you have 1 piece of gear you can use to boost a certain stat in that slot... and if it happens to be a low-AC piece, you're stuck with either paying a massive cash price to upgrade it, or change your tactic and go with a piece of gear that doesn't cost an arm and a leg to use.
Maybe I'm the only one that feels this way, but when it costs 100k to raise one item, vs 25mil for the other, it makes you question why bother wasting your money for that piece.
June 5 2008 9:45 PM EDT
Grey, I completely understand your point and all I can say is this;
(using the elven gear just as an example)
Like you say they all do the same thing with the boots being the "best" in regards to the AC they provide and the cost to upgrade. That is most likely why they are in the highest demand. So there you've got your + to dx with your boots but you want more. IMHO the reason for the lower AC and higher price to upgrade as you move to EG and EC is so that the tremendous addition to dx by having all of them should NOT be cheap. It appears to be a balancing feature and it all depends on what you want. Maybe you want the higher and cheaper AC of the CML over the dx + of the EB. Then thats a choice you have to make and thus end up paying more for dx by way of the EC and/or EG.
What we NEED is for the mage gear to provide more than just base AC!!!
it is intentional that some armor slots are weaker then another. EB has to compete with DB, while all cloak is pretty bad. If say EB is lowered to 7 AC (and increase its blacksmith cost) and increase EC to 7 AC base, then DB + EC will become a no-brainer.
Most items that go into the same slot have an upgrade cost that reflects their effect.
For example, EG are more expensive than TG to upgrade. But EG increase DX and Skills, saving a lot more experience than just the ST of TG (which is also less versatile than DX + Skill).
Same with CoI and EC. EC gives DX + Skills, whereas CoI increases DD spells. Consequently, CoI costs less to upgrade.
But, really, it's not as big of a deal as you make it seem like it is. So what if it costs a lot to upgrade one of your items? Upgrade a different one. None of your items cheap? Well, then, you probably have a really big bonus to whatever stats those items give you, and you might want to consider investing in something else, like BA or another minion (or gear for that minion). Or, even, get a tank, where you can spend lots of money on a weapon. Or get a different piece of equipment, if you feel such hate towards an items that's expensive to upgrade.
Or just live with the way the system is, accepting that Jon made it this way for a reason, and most likely won't change it.
June 5 2008 10:25 PM EDT
Honestly, it feels like the disparity between similar gear types (in the way of blacksmithing prices) is the big milestone in being able to create more gear that fills in the holes of what is currently lacking in the gear circuit.
A major overhaul of all the gear is what it would take to balance out the prices of upgrades. So I guess it's not something I should expect to happen, but I just thought I'd throw my thoughts out there.
There are a few of us that think it's, strange, that the best base items are also have the best upgrade curve.
This can only lead to items being made redundant by thier betters.
Also, the Boot 'slot' can be seen as a better slot than the Cloak one, as it's not limited by Tattoo use.
June 6 2008 4:41 AM EDT
that's another thing that kinda plays into it too. Half the time, the cloak slot is a piece of junk, because of the cost of getting a decently upgraded cloak... the boot slot not only has great boots to choose from, but doesn't have to contend with the tattoo slot for usefulness. Of course, this can be said of gloves as well.
yes, but after so much upgrading, the cloak slot gets better. so its a lot of boots + cloak if you need them.
e.g. +50 on EB and base EC is definitely more expensive then +49 on EB and +1 on EC etc. up to a point around maybe +30 and +20 is the optimal point.
Cloak is a piece of junk? Just because it isn't as good as boots doesn't make it weak. Why aren't Cloaks as good as boots? Why aren't boots as good as AoF? Why doesn't the HoD give as much AC as the AC? They're both wall armor!
You see these concepts throughout items. Like how body armor gives huge effects and AC but at the expense of a tattoo slot.
Sure lets make the cloak as upgradeable as boots, now it's better than the SC, a stat boosting wall armor! Then we need to rebalance SC then why not re balance all other items? Wow 477 got that much closer... kinda eliminates the point of ENC... don't tell me Jon didn't get a scare when Freed was creating that monster of a wall.
June 6 2008 5:32 PM EDT
3/4, you're kinda missing the point. The point isn't to buff the hell out of everything. It's to rebalance the pieces and how they interact with one another, so that you don't have these "duh" pieces that you pretty much HAVE to use, because the alternatives are either junk, or take massive amounts of cash to make useful.
But as i said, it would take a rather heavy rebalancing of a lot of the gear, so i don't see it happening.
June 6 2008 5:53 PM EDT
I think you're missing the point also. Every slot is balanced within itself, i.e. All boots have their own special effects, and each one is just as good as the next. Why would boots have to be as good as body armor? Somethings are worse than others because they logically make sense.
You don't HAVE to use anything.
HoC is completely optional, for example, on archers. HoE could be better than HoC if you're facing EC or need some extra ENC room. HoD could be useful if you don't need HoE or HoC. Or even a corn, if you have enchantments that could use a boost.
EB are only good if you're training DX/Skills, otherwise DB might be better. If the minion isn't going to be facing physical damage, like a rear mage wall, CML or (if you don't want penalties to anything) Leather Boots are better.
Everything in the game is a viable item. The only real exceptions are those ones which have higher penalties and lower AC than other items in the same slot.
There is always a situation where a certain item would be better than the other options available (save for those junk exceptions). There are even some situations where more than one item might be a good option.
June 6 2008 5:56 PM EDT
jon rules over all... enough said :)
June 6 2008 6:18 PM EDT
I love cheese. Thank you.
My point is that although it might not seem useful face to face as something else, it's relative usefulness is apparent.
ECs are not as good as EBs, but they're still pretty darn useful. It by no means it a piece of junk because you can't add 30% to dex and skills. It definitely matches the utility of other cloaks and isn't junk. Although another 10% maybe not seem like lots next to EBs, it is. 10% of 3 million Evasion is still a large boost.
Well then why don't the utility of all items be the same? Well at the same time, why shouldn't they? Why should my elven gloves scale like my elven boots when skill boosting is already a problem? I just don't see a problem >.<
June 6 2008 10:31 PM EDT
"Well then why don't the utility of all items be the same? Well at the same time, why shouldn't they? Why should my elven gloves scale like my elven boots when skill boosting is already a problem? I just don't see a problem >.< "
I see a problem when the reason I'm not using a ToA is because of my chest piece, and has nothing to do with my cloak slot. Chest pieces are diverse and have a lot of usefulness (even if there's no +DD chest, for whatever reason). Cloaks are extremely limited and very expensive to level. At the end of the day, the only reason to not use a tattoo instead of a cloak is because you have a chestpiece that would give you a bigger edge... or another minion is already wearing one.
"The power of Elven gear is already boosted, it raises two stats at once (AND ADDS AC!)... the only other item to really do that (outside of the ToA) is the AoF. " The AoF doesn't boost 2 stats at once. Nor does it add AC, I don't believe.
Look at what the EC competes with:
Cloak : 14 total AC for 2mil, with no other effects.
Robe : 14 total AC for 1.3mil, with a penalty to DX and Skills, and an additional penalty to UC
CoI : 6 total AC, no matter how high you upgrade it. 12% boost to DD for 1mil
Shadow Cloak : 14 total AC for 24k. 33 total AC for 2mil. Slight magic penalty
EC : 14 total AC for 1mil, plus 10% boost to DX and skills.
Elven Cloak is better than the Cloak and Robe because it provides the same AC at a lower cost, not to mention the stat boost given.
Elven Cloak is better than the SC because it doesn't give a magic penalty, and gives a DX boost. The SC is better, though, because it can get to +19 for the same cost as an EC +10, and has a lower PR weight. So you weigh the benefits, and for some minions builds, one is clearly better than the other.
Elven Cloak is better than the Cloak of the Istari because it gives more AC (assuming you can spare 11k on upgrades), most of which is magic reduction. If you're a mage, though, the CoI's damage-boosting benefits are probably better than that small AC difference, and the DX boost probably doesn't do much for you.
The cloak slot also competes with tattoos. It is more beneficial, in a lot of cases, to wear a tattoo rather than a cloak... but not necessarily more beneficial to wear a tattoo than a cloak, body armor, and power shield. Is an Adam, Shadow Cloak, and Mage Shield on this minion better for my team than a ToE? Maybe. It's viable. Is a Mithril Chain Mail, Elven Cloak, and Buckler of Mandos better for my light tank than a ToA? It could be; it would certainly increase your PR less, giving potentially better challenge bonus.
Imagine, though, if the boot slot and the helm slot were taken by the tattoo. Every archer could have decent AC and a ToA, but they wouldn't be able to wear an HoC or Elven Boots... that would be too much of a loss, and it wouldn't even be an option to consider for most. I think the cloak slot is kinda crappy in comparison because other pretty good slots already compete with the benefit a tattoo brings, and making cloaks as awesome as everything else would just tip the balance too much, making tattoos non-viable.
"At the end of the day, the only reason to not use a tattoo instead of a cloak is because you have a chestpiece that would give you a bigger edge..." That's what I'm saying. If the chest piece alone is already giving you a "bigger edge" than a tattoo would, any benefit at all that you get from a cloak (even if just the AC) is free.
June 6 2008 10:38 PM EDT
thank you colonel. you pretty much made my point for me, except that i believe if you tweaked around everything else, you could tweak around the tats as well, making them still viable. But again, that's just my opinion on the matter.
June 6 2008 10:42 PM EDT
well, the reason why the chest pieces themselve give a bigger edge isn't because they're 'better" than the tattoo, but rather because they give different bonuses. Like my UC minion using a Gi instead of a ToA... i get an extra bonus to my UC, on top of more evastion, and i can upgrade it for more armor, because i already have other gear that will raise my ST and DX, that i don't need to tack on the ToA.
The same goes with the MCM, TSA, and whatever else... none of them give the 40% damage reduction of the ToE, or the extra damage of a familiar, but they offer other benefits that make them more useful for certain builds.
Not to mention, even if improving cloaks, overall, make tats subpar for 1-minion teams, they'll still be used in multi-minion teams, because of the lack of gear for enchanters, etc.
I'm starting to feel lost.
Were you saying that cloaks were too weak? Or to hard to upgrade? I feel like I've been arguing about the wrong thing >.<
Well, lets take a look at my team. My team is based on the aura effect on the ToE, however when building the team I knew I wanted 3 things
a CoI on the CoC mage
a PL battery
a evasion wall
now there were many things I had to think about. I wanted my CoC mage to have a CoI, because I wanted the boost to combat a little AMF and help with the damage problem of a "tiny" mage. I obviously wanted a TSA on my PL battery, and I decided to put lots of AC on my Evasion wall. Both the evasion wall (25 AC is a huge deal in the higher AC areas, esp in conjunction with ToE) and the CoC mage benefited greatly from the cloak, and the PL battery benefited quite a bit from the given EC I could slap in.
My point? It's that the utility of the cloak slot is much greater than it seems at first, and definitely is worth the competition of a tattoo. Cloaks are the reason I need to use 4 minions. One solely to hold the tattoo.
Look at it from another angle, single minion RoBF. I don't think giving them a elven cloak is the best idea. How about SFBM? Lets give them a CoI? Now they have both DD stat boosting items. Familiar based teams? Now we can junction even more stuff!
June 7 2008 11:35 AM EDT
Why even compare 2 different types of body armor?
Elven Boots go on feet and the Cloak goes on your back. You can wear both...
The reason that one has a higher base armor (and coming with cheaper upgrade price) is most likely just to balance the item types by themselves.
boots give more natural armor than cloaks.
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