Armor changes (in Changelog)

AdminJonathan June 10 2008 4:17 PM EDT

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] June 10 2008 4:18 PM EDT


QBOddBird June 10 2008 4:18 PM EDT


AdminQBVerifex [Serenity In Chaos] June 10 2008 4:18 PM EDT

Yeah maybe my HAL can beat up those guys now! woo :)

Wasp [C and S Forgery Lmtd.] June 10 2008 4:21 PM EDT

Looks like a good set of changes : )

Frost June 10 2008 4:22 PM EDT

nothing for me but the 2h wep penalty is nice

iBananco [Blue Army] June 10 2008 4:23 PM EDT

Woohoo, tower shield buff!

QBRanger June 10 2008 4:33 PM EDT

O, great.

Now even less dex to try to hit evasion. Joy of Joys.

QBOddBird June 10 2008 4:38 PM EDT

But Ranger,

you can put a BoM on there with your MH. With the 30%+ boost to STR, you can invest in DX more.

QBRanger June 10 2008 4:39 PM EDT


And without the MgS, due to the fact i cannot use a Missile weapon, let mages pound on me for 6 rounds. Or let CoC start firing immediately.

Just a freaking great thing for tanks.

QBRanger June 10 2008 5:05 PM EDT

The ROS boost has been needed for ages.

The HAL should have been this way from the beginning.

Same with the BOM.

The AC, well its a little but not much to change people from using it or not.

The 2H weapon thing is just wrong, plain wrong. Especially if evasion is not going to be changed, and from the looks of it, it will not be.

QBJohnnywas June 10 2008 5:09 PM EDT

Like Morgs need help. 3 of them in the top 5....


QBRanger June 10 2008 5:10 PM EDT

Exactly why.

They have to be that high in order to hit the high evasions out there.


QBJohnnywas June 10 2008 5:14 PM EDT

Top 5 scores I meant. Lol still.

iBananco [Blue Army] June 10 2008 5:16 PM EDT

That doesn't even make sense. Other weapons needed just as much PTH before this change.

lostling June 10 2008 5:17 PM EDT

either way everyone now needs to kill everyone by melee or during melee we will see x6 hits -.- (imagine this with VA)

AdminNightStrike June 10 2008 5:47 PM EDT

Regarding the Adam change, I'm curious as to the point. No one wearing an Adam will train DX......

QBJohnnywas June 10 2008 5:54 PM EDT

Unless some more changes to come mean that a heavy tank will become viable again..

Lord Bob June 10 2008 6:13 PM EDT

"Now even less dex to try to hit evasion. Joy of Joys."

My thoughts exactly.

Woo hoo, now I get to hit opponents even less. Should I even be surprised at this point?

Most of the other changes were needed, and I welcome them (RoS boost, yay!).

Wizard'sFirstRule June 10 2008 7:30 PM EDT

ROS need more love. It can ONLY give an extra 40% XP in the stat when compared to ToE which effectively give 400% (25% damage) when under cap.

Dark Dreky June 10 2008 8:39 PM EDT

Very cool RoS boost. Did NOT see that coming. Although I must agree that it does need a bit more to be competitive.

AdminJonathan June 10 2008 9:10 PM EDT

by your logic BW i could say that RoS grants infinite resistance to DM "as long as." both are stupid arguments.

BootyGod June 10 2008 11:05 PM EDT

I think, I just.... I THINK here... we should let changemonth come to a close before we bitch constantly...

Yeah. I said it. Be patient. Dang. Can Jon do NOTHING right!? Just. Wait.

If at the end of the month things still need to be balanced, tell everyone why. Until then, hush. Just. Hush.

QBRanger June 10 2008 11:07 PM EDT

"If at the end of the month things still need to be balanced, tell everyone why. Until then, hush. Just. Hush:"

Evasion has been unbalanced for over 6 months now. Do you really think anything will change this month?

Lochnivar June 10 2008 11:08 PM EDT

/me sides with GW on this one....

Looking forward to what else is in store!

BootyGod June 10 2008 11:17 PM EDT

How easy do you think it is, Ranger? There is no magic button here. Jon can't just adjust a number and everything be okay. One change, just one change that favors tanks too much and we slam right back into USD blender.

Your weapons are too big. They just are. 90% of players can't compete with you without evasion. Everyone keeps saying fix evasion like it's so simple. As if the solution to EVERY perceived issue is right in front of Jon's eyes and through his stubborness (and, of course, his single minded dislike of whoever wanted something else) he ignores it.

I'm not asking that you don't fight for what you think is right. You think evasion is overpowered. I tend to agree. But Jon has ALREADY said there are more changes to come. Just. Wait.

Ranger, I support you so often. I agree with so much with what you say, but here I must disagree on your TIMING. In 3 weeks, you can open up. But until then, you could just be arguing over an issue Jon is already trying to fix.

There is no and never was an easy solution to balancing NW/Exp. 6 months is nothing when dealing with such an issue, especially it being one man trying to do it.

QBRanger June 10 2008 11:18 PM EDT

Remove the AoF/Evasion linkage. Let tanks compete with evasion minons on an equal basis.

Easy button pressed.

BootyGod June 10 2008 11:23 PM EDT

Tanks complain about my evasion everytime I'm in chat. I don't use AoF. I hardly doubt it'll change anything.

Not to mention the fact that evasion was griped about long before using the AoF was common practice. The AoF is just overkill.

QBsutekh137 June 10 2008 11:35 PM EDT

That's a good point, Ranger. And if that doesn't help those down lower who can't afford (either via NW or ENC or both), will you continue the railing against Evasion?

In other words, tell me your litmus test for when it is balanced? What vs. What? With what Result? Don't get me wrong, I've seen both sides of it...Double Trouble came back on my fight list when encumbrance was introduced. Other teams have not. Do I deserve more on my fight list? *shrug* I don't know.

But you seem to. Can you enlighten us all as to what a Favorable Outcome for the game is in your book, without using anecdotes? Most folks that can beat me are tanks with massive damage reduction. Should I automatically rail against tanks? Against damage reduction?

This is a serious question. If you can answer it, you will have really sussed out the whole game. High score to low score, USD vs no USD. Mage vs. Tank, Covering all tattoos, NUB vs veteran.

And when you can do that, I'll trust you more than Jonathan. *smile*

He's got the keys to the database, Hoss. And his interior accessories involve sweet deals like the source code and more years of experience than either of us. There ain't no keys nor a sweeter ride in these lands.

Can you just wait and see what is to come? Please?

Lord Bob June 10 2008 11:36 PM EDT

"Your weapons are too big. They just are. 90% of players can't compete with you without evasion."

If one player's overpowered weapons are the justification for an overpowered stat that effects every other tank in the game, something is wrong.

As for your easy fix: Evasion decays by 10% in melee rounds.

That's all. I'll now cease my complaining until the end of change month.

QBRanger June 10 2008 11:37 PM EDT


That is how people complain, including me at times.

Take the top of anything and titrate to that item/stat.

Human nature.

QBsutekh137 June 10 2008 11:44 PM EDT

I don't use an AoF for my Evasion either. Actually, it never even occurred to me given the fact how badly I am eaten up by AMF from several characters.

How does that titrate? Purple or still clear?

Lord Bob June 10 2008 11:46 PM EDT

"That is how people complain, including me at times. ... Human nature."

Doesn't make it right.

I'll say this though (yeah, I promised to stop, but fudge it..): If we're looking at the very top player's ultra-boosted weapons, and those weapons are abnormally accurate by "cheating" with USD, and those super-mega-hella accurate "cheating" weapons are STILL ineffective against some of the top Evasions out there, it means Evasion is too powerful. If cheating the game to beat it is still futile, it's a sign things are a bit imbalanced.

QBsutekh137 June 10 2008 11:52 PM EDT

LB, I will then ask you the same thing I asked of Ranger...

Describe a balanced game to me. Mind you, the balance has to be from score 1 to score 5 million, tattoo small to tattoo large, mage vs. tank, and NUB vs. veteran.

Anything less than that, and the cacophony of pain and entitlement will ensue.

When Jonathan makes a change, what pressure cooker (other than your own fight list) should it go through to be deemed acceptable? (when it isn't even complete yet, no less...might want to bear that in mind...)

Enlighten me.

QBRanger June 10 2008 11:57 PM EDT

Then why even have cash in this game?

If you want things to be even, why have anything other then xp?

NW should mean something, now its utter garbage.

Especially when tanks cannot compete with evasion minions on the dexterity front.

The NUB of course has to be extended in time or enact a rolling bonus. Fair should be fair.

But tanks like Failure, Soxjr, Bart, all suck due to evasion. Titrated based upon myself, Mkel and Freed.

I proposed a weapon cap. Jon enacted ENC, but evasion was not changed one bit in melee and it rules that phase of the game.

Now, with less dexterity, I hit even less. Joy o Joy.

We should just have MPR vs MPR determine xp rewards as strategies are so basic now with all the restrictions/abusivenesses in play.

lostling June 11 2008 12:01 AM EDT

as i said before just either
1. let AOF boost dx too
or make
2. and elven amulet that adds 2% to dx and skills

Lord Bob June 11 2008 12:07 AM EDT

Sut, quit pretending like anyone here is claiming to have all the answers. I'm an amateur game programmer myself, and I know how delicate game balance can be. I spent the better part of today writing the success rate algorithm for a status effect spell that fairly takes into account resistance traits and other such stats, and right now, I still hate it. Even the pros rarely get it right, and I don't expect Jon to be perfect.

But regardless, Evasion has been overpowered for quite some time now. Maybe we'll see a real fix this month, maybe not, which is why I agree we should hold off judgment.

When a stat becomes so buffed that it can nullify a full 100% of a certain character class's attack, it needs a change. You and other mages constantly whine about the multiple layers of damage reduction, which you mostly fail to acknowledge that we tanks also have to go through, but at least your spells aren't 100% ineffective vs. AMF, a Mage Shield, an Elven Hauberk and even more AC. Just look at my team. Fireball mages still get through. I can't say the same for my own attacks vs. high Evasions.

I have already proposed a solution which has nothing to do with the AoF, but I see you haven't yet commented on that yet.

Lord Bob June 11 2008 12:10 AM EDT

"2. and elven amulet that adds 2% to dx and skills"

Oh goodie, MORE EVASION!

lostling June 11 2008 12:11 AM EDT

oh joy more dx

Lord Bob June 11 2008 12:16 AM EDT

..which right now would be toppled by the extra Evasion. It's not a DX boost when you're further boosting DX's counter, and to-hit's counter at the same time.

Lord Bob June 11 2008 12:21 AM EDT

By the way Lostling, I just stalemated your 577,426 MPR character with my 1,342,558 MPR team. I'll give you one guess why.

How in the world can anyone find this acceptable? Travesties like this wouldn't happen if Evasion decayed in melee.

Draugluin June 11 2008 12:24 AM EDT

It is because it takes the Amulet slot. Whether this is enough of a change is the question.

lostling June 11 2008 12:29 AM EDT

you have 500k dx and 4 minions go figure

Greyfeld June 11 2008 12:34 AM EDT

"you have 500k dx and 4 minions go figure"

I have 1.4mil DX, and I can't hit you with my SoD.

Tyriel [123456789] June 11 2008 12:39 AM EDT

"I think, I just.... I THINK here... we should let changemonth come to a close before we bitch constantly...

Yeah. I said it. Be patient. Dang. Can Jon do NOTHING right!? Just. Wait.

If at the end of the month things still need to be balanced, tell everyone why. Until then, hush. Just. Hush."

For once, GW is right. Listen to him. This only happens once in a blue moon, so it might be smart to pay attention to him.

Wizard'sFirstRule June 11 2008 12:59 AM EDT

thanks for letting me know of another 2.1m score target.

Lord Bob June 11 2008 1:19 AM EDT

"you have 500k dx and 4 minions go figure"

You're missing the Haste, AoF, and DX boosting gear. You're wrong by over half my DX.

And a +101 Morgul Hammer.

QBJohnnywas June 11 2008 3:32 AM EDT

Sorry couldn't let this pass:

"NW should mean something, now its utter garbage."

And still, as has been the case for the longest time, the top scoring chars are tanks! Doesn't strike me as garbage.

QBJohnnywas June 11 2008 3:37 AM EDT

I'm being dumb now, but does the BoM boost to ST raise ENC? So using a big BoM would mean you could use bigger weapons?

QBOddBird June 11 2008 3:39 AM EDT

That's how that works Johnny :D super bonus!

QBJohnnywas June 11 2008 3:40 AM EDT

And yet still the big cheese and whine fest? Jon must love coming into these forums!

QBOddBird June 11 2008 3:51 AM EDT

Jon, I must ask - was there a damage tone-down on the Halidon right after it was upgraded to ELB equivalent? I've seen a lot lower damage my fights after I got back from work than what I did before I left. Like, on average about 30% less.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] June 11 2008 5:12 AM EDT

Fixed and Fixed Better? :P

Brakke Bres [Ow man] June 11 2008 5:36 AM EDT

2. and elven amulet that adds 2% to dx and skills

I would dump my aof in a heartbeat if this ever comes out :P

2% to dx and skills? including defensive dex and no more nasty enhanced EC to worry about yay.

Anyway I'm very exited to see part 2 of these changes :)

Phrede June 11 2008 6:01 AM EDT

At last a change that doesnt directly affect me. Still I was looking forward to a small Evasion change - in whatever guise that comes.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] June 11 2008 6:32 AM EDT

I think the new Boots, Gloves and Cloak are an effort to combat Evasion.

As an Evasion minion, I'd hate to face a Tank with a front BoL (and/or AoL) minion using an ELS with the new Gloves and Cloak. ;)

Pheather June 11 2008 6:34 AM EDT

Actually, you can't use the gloves with the Elven -LONG- sword. The gloves work for short swords only ;)

QBRanger June 11 2008 6:48 AM EDT

And considering the highest VB is +181, the highest ELS is +100, the highest Bth is +155, and the highest Bone is +134, evasion minions have nothing to worry about.

At least not for another 100M CB2 invested in the weapons.

I see the new items as a patch on a bigger problem. Or of like a steri-strips on a wound that needs a lot of stitches.

Given the VB is the closest, remember it is the most expensive of the to 5 items to up the + on.

Overall, so far we have an evasion buff, nothing near the nerf it certainly needed.

QBRanger June 11 2008 8:52 AM EDT

Seems the adam change helps evasion minons a bit.

Less dex penalty to have more AC.

And only costs +3 on the AOF to completely neutralize it.

Interesting change.

TheHatchetman June 11 2008 9:53 AM EDT

"Given the VB is the closest, remember it is the most expensive of the to 5 items to up the + on. "

Wrong! to get a VB to +150, it'll be $41,795,652 net worth. To get a MH to +150 would be $42,149,436 net worth.

I have been saying forever the VB is the *most* reliable weapon in CB, although it wasn't necessarily the most powerful weapon in many situations. For this, I was called crazy. Considering the VB got a plethora of new toys, and the MH doesn't work so well with shields anymore, and VB *still* has cheaper upgrade cost on the + side (the x is considerably more expensive though, so if you want something dumb like x10k on a VB you'll notice the price difference.), and cuts armor...

VB for the pwn! :P

TheHatchetman June 11 2008 9:55 AM EDT

and I may have forgot to mention how its 1-handedness pwns the DX battle... silly me

QBsutekh137 June 11 2008 10:07 AM EDT

Lord Bob, please try not to mistake earnestness as pretense -- I sincerely meant my question, and wanted to start a real discussion on fixes. I apologize for not seeing your idea on having Evasion decay.

And while I think that is a good idea, I can't really comment on it because it would be disingenuous for me to do so. It would rarely ever decay for me seeing as how I rarely make it into round 2 of melee. *smile* That being said, I don't think a 10% decay would be enough to, say, satisfy Ranger on that front. Also, it would get to the part of the game I hate FAR more than Evasion -- damage reduction. If the 10% Evasion decay did help a melee team, that would likely mean that melee team had a lot of damage reduction and/or HP regen going on, and I will not support in any way, shape, or form anything that encourages more damage reduction in the game.

I don't think everyone has the answers, and I never insinuated such. From my side, you will notice how little I comment on specific game mechanics any more. I only comment on one very general and one slightly-less general issue:

Binary/stepwise mechanics: I have disliked on/off gameplay dynamics ever since the RedDwarf/Spid dexterity wars on CB1. Going from all wins to all losses because of one stat switcheroo is not fun, in my opinion.

Damage reduction: I have proposed an idea for this before, but the damage reduction folks love their new playing field so much I don't hold out hope for ever getting any momentum behind a movement. Some damage reduction teams even admit how dull and fun-killing it no avail.

My idea on that? Make things less layered, remove some layers, or at least rearrange the ordering of layers so that at least SOME real damage can get through (read: enough damage so as not to be trivially erased via PL, TSA, and VA).

QBOddBird June 11 2008 1:48 PM EDT

Well, I made that post, and now I'm seeing good damage again. Perhaps it was just randomness. Whether it was that or a fix, thanks Jonathan! You've given my Halidon a new lease on life!

Lord Bob June 11 2008 3:55 PM EDT

Sut, my goal here isn't to satisfy Ranger. While him and I agree on a great many things regarding the issue of balance in this game, I'm not his follower. I'm going to suggest whatever I think will make the game better, and if you haven't noticed, that has included a few mage buffs as well that would have worked against me.

If you rarely make it into round two of melee than maybe that is a symbol of just how good you mages have it compares to us tanks right now. As it stands, very few of us can afford to compete in both ranged and melee. You can do both, and you always hit. For reduced damage maybe, but it still hits for something. The only DD (not counting Decay) that doesn't give you the advantage of ranged and melee is Cone of Cold, but it hits multiple targets, and it hits them very, very hard. Unless I'm using a SoD, and I can't afford to (I'll get to that in a minute), I only target one minion during ranged, and with Evasion I can't hit him.

"Also, it would get to the part of the game I hate FAR more than Evasion -- damage reduction."

So you want to nullify our attack by 100% during ranged for a quick win so we don't get to reduce your damage output too much?

I don't see damage reduction as a problem at all. Yeah, in the pre-encumbrance days when one could conceivably get enough AC through USD to get 100% reduction, it was a problem. But not anymore. For me it's all about the "partial reduction vs 100% reduction" thing. Partial reduction isn't the problem here. Complete nullification of one type of damage is.

Lately I've been relying far more on damage reduction than on offense to win vs. mages. Why? The WA nerf. NOT Encumbrance, the WA nerf. I am utterly unable to equip an adequate weapon to compete in both ranged and melee without utterly devastating my rewards. Equipping a lesser ranged weapon will just have me wasting ammo and therefore money, which won't win me anything except another trip to the store for more wasted ammo. Upping my Morg is pointless, since I need to survive to melee to use it, meaning I need more defense. So where have I been spending my cash? More damage reduction, and BA so I can get my MPR high enough to re-equip a ranged weapon. But mostly on damage reduction. Believe me, I'd love to be able to pump more money into my offense. But after last change month, I have nothing else to spend it on besides armor.

So if you were really against too much damage reduction, you would be railing against the WA nerf, as it encourages weaker tank offense and pumped up AC.

QBOddBird June 11 2008 4:01 PM EDT

Actually, with FB, sutekh is not very good in melee at all. :P

QBsutekh137 June 11 2008 4:28 PM EDT

LB, I will rail against exactly the number of things I want to rail against, and nothing you demand of me is going to change that. *smile* That number happens to be 1 most of the time, so obviously I am going to talk about what happens to be at the top of my list.

I have never, not once in this thread, said I don't think Evasion has issues. I simply said I am against the layers of damage reduction far, far more. For all you know, that means on scale of 1 to 100 hatred, I rank damage reduction a 90, Evasion a 50, and everything else a 2. In other words, you can go ahead and knock off the combative tone. I'm not against anyone, and was actually _attempting_ to have a constructive discussion without any aggressive tone to it.

As for damage reduction nullifying all damage -- well, it doesn't have to. It only needs to nullify enough to win, even when at a much lower PR. dudemus beats me (he's not just off my fight list, he beats me handily) due to layers of DD damage reduction (AMF and RoBF, in his case). And his Evasion is pretty good at making tanks whiff, too. In that way, he has it all (and is only getting bigger). So, what is overpowered? The mage-busting powers he has, or the evasive powers he has? *shrug*

This is against a singleton team that doesn't even use dilution to beat me. I just can't get him killed quickly enough. Now, mind you, I'd love a free retrain where I could try MM instead of FB and see if I can last enough to kill him, but as other threads have said, I can't afford to untrain anything so large when there is essentially no longer any way for me to make up lost ground. Everyone up here uses (and buys) all their BA, and a couple teams use RoE (something I cannot do -- my strategy depends on the familiar to maintain a decent fightlist). So I stick with the FB...

So yeah, as a mage I think damage reduction is a big problem. As a tank, you think Evasion is a big problem. And Ranger loves the MH, seeing as how that is what he swings. These are not surprises. We're presenting the things we see as problems based on our own viewpoints. I will totally admit that.

By the way, if damage reduction and HP regeneration got toned down, I assure you Evasion would be the thing I'd mention next. But like I said, that's not going to happen, so you won't hear me saying anything either way (other than what I have already posted in previous threads) concerning the Big E.

Lord Bob June 11 2008 5:10 PM EDT

"Actually, with FB, sutekh is not very good in melee at all."

Because without damage reduction, FB mages still fry us before we get to melee.

Sut, I don't much care for your tone most of the time either, including on this thread. My last post wasn't meant to be combative at all, but if you would like to annoy me enough into changing that, be my guest.

Back to the more constructive part of the conversation.

My point about the WA promoting more damage reduction still stands. If you're against a change in Evasion - or anything - that promotes more reduction as you stated before ("and I will not support in any way, shape, or form anything that encourages more damage reduction in the game") then I present to you the WA problem. If you disagree, feel free to explain why. But for me, it's either fix Evasion and the WA, or I have to keep piling on the damage reduction. I have no other option. I wish I did.

The whole point of damage reduction is to nullify enough to win. If it didn't, what would be the point of defense at all?

Your problem with Dudemus' low PR and damage reduction seems to mirror my horror at seeing Lostling stalemate me at less than half my MPR.

However, and I know you're tired of reading it, my problem is not with partial damage reduction, which is a problem not exclusive to mages. After all, AC counts more vs. tanks than it does against mages. My problem is a stat so readily accessible and easily concentrated that renders a certain type of offense completely, totally, 100% obsolete. Damage reduction vs. a mage does not do that.

"So, what is overpowered? The mage-busting powers he has, or the evasive powers he has? *shrug* "

Both. As I mentioned before, I've argued for pro-mage changes in the past as well. We agree 100% on the RBF issues. Though the item's magic reduction means nothing to my strat, I'm horrified by it's ability to nerf mages so much. If we're strictly talking about damage reduction from the RBF perspective, then yeah, it deserves a BIG nerf. But an Evasion fix should come first.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] June 11 2008 5:17 PM EDT

Maybe the increased amount of to hit items is the fix.

Drop the clunky 2 Handers, save them for the non Evaison targets, and use the slender finese Bladed weapons, with their higher base chance to hit and new boosts, to hit the ninjas. ;)

Plus the now obligatory AoI/BoF 'chanter. :(

Lord Bob June 11 2008 5:28 PM EDT

Without the clunky 2-handers, I won't be doing enough damage to win anyway. See also: the WA nerf.

QBOddBird June 11 2008 5:29 PM EDT

See: Bloodlust as a viable skill now

QBJohnnywas June 11 2008 5:29 PM EDT

It's another changemonth where tanks get lots of choices again!

Hit those slow moving targets for lots of damage with a heavy weapon, or hit the faster ones for slightly less damage...

Actually that's not true...the BoNE is an edged weapon isn't it? Best of both worlds...

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] June 11 2008 5:30 PM EDT

The BoNE is the new... err umm BoNE I guess. All hail CHOICE!!!

QBJohnnywas June 11 2008 5:32 PM EDT

So the new tank has the new gloves and cloak, an adam, a BoM and a BoNE is on a RoS team?

QBOddBird June 11 2008 5:36 PM EDT

<novice> BoNE + ToA + new items...
<novice> 7 hits a round!

Lord Bob June 11 2008 5:37 PM EDT

"See: Bloodlust as a viable skill now"

I've actually been contemplating training Bloodlust for a while now, but I'm not entirely sure I could handle any more XP dilution on my attacker.

QBRanger June 11 2008 5:40 PM EDT

So what the heck are us with 100+M MH's susposed to do?

Eat 50% of the NW and call it a loss to try to hit evasion?

C'mon. that is just crap.

Give me something for all the NW I pumped into my MH.

Do not give me this crap: "disenchant and make a sword"

Lord Bob June 11 2008 5:42 PM EDT

Agreed. I rather like my hammer. I'll wait for Jon's MH friendly item hinted at on the other thread.

QBRanger June 11 2008 5:47 PM EDT

That is the problem with all these nifty items one gets.

Great for waepons nobody used, or a few people used.
But what about those who used an item and built it up? We are hosed.
And forget about fixing the root of the evasion problem, let's put a patch on it hiere and there.

Well, unless I am able to get back most of the NW of my MH, I am quite stuck using it.

I do not want another VB debacle, where I lost 50% of its NW when it got nerfed.

And people say mages have it rough.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] June 11 2008 5:47 PM EDT

You've stopped having fun Ranger... take a step back.

You got what you asked for, mid level users have an option to combat evasion.

Massive NW investment has always been risky, you know that.

QBRanger June 11 2008 5:50 PM EDT

"Massive NW investment has always been risky, you know that. "

So why even both playing a tank when your "massive NW" weapon get no lovin?

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] June 11 2008 5:53 PM EDT

If you can't answer that I don't know what to tell you...

QBOddBird June 11 2008 5:59 PM EDT

Your MH currently has 242 mil invested in it. You would get -at least- half back through disenchantment.

Do you think your tank team would make it with a 130M BoNE/VB/BoTH/whatever? Given extra NW via these new items in the PTH section?

You're right, you wouldn't get -all- the NW out of your MH, and you'd have a smaller weapon...

But a HUGE weapon and a less huge but still HUGE weapon should both do well, no?

Tyriel [123456789] June 11 2008 6:00 PM EDT

Way back when you chose which weapon to use, Ranger, you chose the MH for its huge damage and innate VA ability.

You sacrificed accuracy (although the difference back then in accuracy between 1H and 2H weapons really didn't mean much) for damage.

Now that you're having trouble hitting, and 1H weapons are finally actually useful, you don't want to do anything but complain more?

Yes, we know, Evasion is overpowered. Jon probably already has a change coming.

If you really want to hit Evasion, all you have to do is get an ELS, Katana, VB (oh wait, you already have one), and start building up another weapon. I'm sure you can find the money for it.

You have a MH already; a power weapon, not an accurate weapon. You can't have both power and accuracy, but that doesn't make your MH totally useless because you can't hit a certain minion with it. Just get an accurate weapon, or find a way around it (DD, perhaps? :) ).

Now, can we please stop all of this complaining? It's making me dumber by the second, reading the same thing displayed differently over and over again.

QBRanger June 11 2008 6:00 PM EDT

Do you think your tank team would make it with a 130M BoNE/VB/BoTH/whatever? Given extra NW via these new items in the PTH section? :

Hell no way.

But I will wait to see whats up with part 2.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] June 11 2008 6:02 PM EDT

"Without the clunky 2-handers, I won't be doing enough damage to win anyway. See also: the WA nerf. "

VB and the VB lite. Hit thorugh that AC and ToE for massive Damage, and now hit often.

As for the investment into weapons, tell that to the folks who threw millions upon millions of CB2 into NCB BA that was either borked at the time, or something happned (stat changes, internet failures, illnesses, whatever) and the NCB ended up not WAI.

At least the NW invested in items can either;

1: Be traded to a new character
2: Disenchanted for some return
3: Sold to Central Bank

QBRanger June 11 2008 6:06 PM EDT

Whoa there:

People knew the N*B was borked yet continued to play it.

Nobody forced them to.

Big difference there speedy.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] June 11 2008 6:09 PM EDT

You know the game changes and there are zero guarantees of power in a specific item, especially weapons. If there were Freed would be in for a big fat refund check for that poor ELB...

Tyriel [123456789] June 11 2008 6:09 PM EDT

You knew the MH was the best weapon (by far), and you continued to use it.

I seem to recall something about adapting, expecting overpowered things to be nerfed... Can't remember who said it though, so I don't know whether I should be saying it ironically because Ranger said it, or pointedly because somebody else (correctly) said it...

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] June 11 2008 6:09 PM EDT

Yeah, without any other option... How many times was it reclaibrated, or said to have been fixed, but wasn't. I rememember a few people being stung by that.

But the point still stands. Items can be transfered or sold/disenchanted for reimbursment. Excessive cash spent on characters, from NCB BA to purchasing new minions, cannot.

QBJohnnywas June 11 2008 6:10 PM EDT

It's always been the 'rule' of CB. Nothing is guaranteed.

Pheather June 11 2008 6:14 PM EDT

Well hopefully we can expect Evasion and Damage layers to be nerfed then.

QBOddBird June 11 2008 6:18 PM EDT

"Do you think your tank team would make it with a 130M BoNE/VB/BoTH/whatever? Given extra NW via these new items in the PTH section? :

Hell no way. "

That sucks. =( That's the NW of my entire team, and it isn't big enough to make it as your melee weapon.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] June 11 2008 6:26 PM EDT

And Ranger, if you really want to stick with your MH, go for it! Just make other changes to compensate. Like using a ToA (I did satisfy you with those examples, didn't I?).

It would give your more STR, so more ENC, so larger Morg. Plus more DEX and more PTH to hit Evasion.

Isn't it a shame that the damage reduction in CB is so powerful, that the lure of PL + TSA + ToE is just too hard to pass up for a more offensive set up like a Morg + ToA...

Oh well. I suppose the moral is you just can't be all out offensive and all out defensive at the same time...

QBsutekh137 June 11 2008 6:37 PM EDT

Nope, LB. I'm out. You won't be hearing from me for the rest of change-month (and probably beyond). Sounds like that's doing you a favor ( really had no idea, sorry if I have been an annoyance to you or anyone else for that matter)...

So, good luck with the changes, and good luck with your character! I hope more changes come down the pipe that work more toward balancing things for you.

QBRanger June 11 2008 6:46 PM EDT


Please let me know who to live through GA and missile damage without a MgS on my tank and without a TOE using a TOA.
To last till melee to finally try to hit.

QBOddBird June 11 2008 6:56 PM EDT

If you aren't swinging until melee, the GA part of that shouldn't be too hard. ;)

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] June 11 2008 7:48 PM EDT

Bob better hope Sut is joking...

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] June 11 2008 10:20 PM EDT

Easy Ranger, AC, PL and TSA. And you have all three.

Don't forget Ranged damage (including DD) has been nerfed, without Ranged amage reduciton taking the same it, and (as said above) your Morg won't net you and GA in Ranged, so you'll still have your VA leech for Melee.

You also have EC to reduce the STR and therefore damage of Physical Ranged attacks.

Do you still want more?

I suppose there's also Evasion, which would get some nice Ranged bonuses, if you can't make it to Melee versus ELBows.

Or just stay extra defensive with the ToE and accept you're not going to be hitting specilist Evasion minions as well as the folks who are specing/gearing to hit them.

Lord Bob June 11 2008 10:50 PM EDT

"Bob better hope Sut is joking..."

I hope no such thing. This isn't the first time he's walked away from a discussion with me when things didn't go his way. If he's going to act the way he does, he had better be prepared when I throw it back at him. Otherwise good riddance.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] June 11 2008 11:06 PM EDT least sut's not bitter! ; )

Lord Bob June 11 2008 11:06 PM EDT

"Don't forget Ranged damage (including DD) has been nerfed, "

For some of us, it's been cut out entirely. Not for non-CoC mages though.

The whole point is that currently, tank offense can be easily nullified by 100%. The new items aren't a real fix, just a patch over the problem which forces us to give up something else. Too bad mages can't be forced to give up something the way we are.

MY point from the conversation with Sut is, with WA suffering the massive nerf that it got, those of us 4-minion tanks under the top score levels can no longer mount an effective offense, which is why I personally have been resorting to more damage reduction (which I fail to see as a problem at all) rather than boosting or even re-equipping my weapons.

Lord Bob June 11 2008 11:09 PM EDT

" least sut's not bitter!"

Nor should he be. I didn't get rough with him until he accused me of being combative and aggressive. If he read something in my posts that wasn't there, that's on him. His tone prior to that was no more pleasant than mine was.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] June 11 2008 11:15 PM EDT

"The whole point is that currently, tank offense can be easily nullified by 100%. The new items aren't a real fix, just a patch over the problem which forces us to give up something else. Too bad mages can't be forced to give up something the way we are."

What like having to change form FB to CoC to become competitive?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] June 11 2008 11:19 PM EDT

And through the only Direct Reduction in the game (Bar AC's tiny amount), there exists one Item that can (and does!) reduce DD damage to Zero (besides a 100% AMF). The RBF.

Which combines with reduction layers.

Lord Bob June 11 2008 11:44 PM EDT

You'll note that I'm also an opponent of the RBF's magic reduction abilities. I even state such on this thread.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] June 12 2008 12:14 AM EDT

I've never seen you be anything but combative and aggressive bob...

ActionAction June 12 2008 1:34 AM EDT

To break the streak of heated argument in this thread ~__~.

Heck yes RoS!

Colonel Custard June 12 2008 2:43 AM EDT

I like the BoM change. It's little, but oh so meaningful.

Everything else sounds similarly reasonable and useful, even though it doesn't directly affect my team's equipment. Good changes.

Wizard'sFirstRule June 12 2008 5:15 AM EDT

CC: the reason that it is a good change is because it doesn't affect your team?:P
I hope heavy melee tank will get some help in the form of damage, so I can focus on keeping myself alive for 5 rounds.
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