Radical changemonth potential ideas (in General)


Sickone August 26 2008 1:35 AM EDT

1. Allowing tattoos to be used alongside body armor, or at least capes/robes

2. Capping evesion minus PTH effect at 0 total PTH (no longer also double-dip into DX-based CTH that is already lowered by the defensive DX it grants)

3. Granting leadership bonuses for the minion wearing the leadership items too, not just for the rest of the team

4. Ranged weapons added to the "scrap yard"

5. Making tattoos forgeable and blacksmithable (but not disenchantable)

6. Adding ALL items (except tattoos) to the disenchant list at blacksmith

7. Displaying WA in the character page

8. Capping weapon NW at 2*WA (take NW equally off both x and + for whatever goes above)

9. Remove the friendly fire from fireball

10. Rework WA to be max(ranged,melee) NW instead of ranged+melee NW.

11. Rolling bonus introduced for non-N*B in form of BA regen rate multipliers

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] August 26 2008 2:54 AM EDT

1. Broken

3. shouldn't happen, it is good balance for it not to effect the front one granting the leadership. It makes it harder to use because the effect of it is big.

4. It shouldn't be one big scrap yard where everything can become everything else. Ranged weapons could have their own set though. Where ex/axbows, MsK, ELB, and SoD can be interchanged.

5. Say hello to every team in the game using an RoE on offense and an MTL tat on defense.

6. Cannot be done. There is something called the store. Buy an axe disenchant sell back. Repeat process. Free money for everyone.

7. A nice little change. Its not too hard to get with a bit of calculating though.

8. So you want pr to skyrocket and even more to be taken off then enc already does.

9. Shouldn't happen. If FB can't keep up as it is something should be changed about the damage it does in ranged. It is meant to be a quick kill spell.

10. Needless complications. Just raise the WA some.

8DEOTWP August 26 2008 3:07 AM EDT

1. Either chest armor or cloaks, not both. Yeah

2. YES

3. Don't know much about leadership.. Seems like a decent idea.

4. Radical

5. Radical

6. Radical

7. Why? No really, genuinely asking why?

8. Not a bad idea.. Pretty large change though.

9. Make fireball randomly friendly fire any number of friendly minions.

10. Either 10 or 8

11. Seems like the current N*B is working fine.

Sickone August 26 2008 4:09 AM EDT

"3. shouldn't happen, it is good balance for it not to effect the front one granting the leadership. It makes it harder to use because the effect of it is big. "

So, single minions have no use for this item at all ? No other item type does that.
__

"5. Say hello to every team in the game using an RoE on offense and an MTL tat on defense. "

If they can afford (CB-wise) to do so, why not ?
Not like the PR isn't being raised quite a bit anyway by using a tat, and defensive starts not being all that good, so all it would do woud be to actually increase growth rates overall while making CB$ dissapear from the economy... which is a GOOD thing, right ?


__

"8. So you want pr to skyrocket and even more to be taken off then enc already does. "

more like the ability to use high-NW rentals on low-MPR chars without breaking them completely


Brakke Bres [Ow man] August 26 2008 4:47 AM EDT

1. ToA bonus and TSA? no thank you.
2. No comment
3. Less strategy choice if you do that.
4. Between the big five and those below isn't that much difference, but between the ranged weapon there is. So no thank you
5. This would kinda remove the only real advantage an old player has.
6. Like Nemeritz said
7. Character page or equip page?
8. Not the best idea around for tanks
9. Like Nemeritz said
10. Like Nemeritz said
11. Rolling bonus? what?

Flatcap [East Milwaukee Devival] August 26 2008 4:54 AM EDT

1. That would throw off the balance. You need a penalty to using a tat, otherwise everyone would wear a ROE.

2. I really have no idea what you mean here.

3. That would remove the penalty to leadership, it's a trade off.

4. Thats actually a good idea

5. That really defeats the point of tatoos

6. Mmm not so great an idea. It would throw off a money sink.

7. Another good idea.

8. You mean the armor NW? That would be huge. And effectively remove the cap on NW

9. Mmm not a great idea. Nope. Fireball is one of the strongest spells in the game, it's like a reverse cone of cold. It fires in all ranged rounds but gets a penalty in melee rounds. Balances it out. If you dont want friendly fire use Magic Missile.

10. Why?

11. Bah to that

Wizard'sFirstRule August 26 2008 5:51 AM EDT

most seems ok, except 3
do we really want another DD boost for SFBM?
and 5
do we really want everyone to forge their defensive tat?
and 10
why are you punishing archers/melee tanks?
and 11
do we really need to get into this discussion again?

Sickone August 26 2008 7:08 AM EDT

most seems ok, except

3 do we really want another DD boost for SFBM?
The bonuses for single tanks / single archers would outweigh the bonused for single fireball mages.


and 5 do we really want everyone to forge their defensive tat?
Why not ? I could even go as far as propose TWO item setups for all teams, one for offense, one for defense, automatically switched when attacking/defending.
In the end, it would make little difference.


and 10 why are you punishing archers/melee tanks?
PUNISH ? This is HELPING them.


and 11 do we really need to get into this discussion again?
No comment :)

NIG August 26 2008 7:12 AM EDT

1 is a no. There should be a trade-off between items and tattoos. You either use a Body armor and a cloak, or a tattoo. It's already gotten better for tattoos because power shields were removed.

Sickone August 26 2008 7:14 AM EDT

If 1+5 is introduced, there's no reason for that trade-off.


Also, add #12 to the list...
AoF should become ELVEN amulet of focus, and it should also boost DX, not just skills (and it should become unforgeable too).

Wizard'sFirstRule August 26 2008 7:16 AM EDT

3 do we really want another DD boost for SFBM?
The bonuses for single tanks / single archers would outweigh the bonused for single fireball mages.

=> exactly my point. I am currently using SFBM, so I used it as an example. giving leadership to single minion teams would require the upgrade curve be increased, making it exclusively single minion item (I "lead" an army of just myself into battle seems wrong.)


and 5 do we really want everyone to forge their defensive tat?
Why not ? I could even go as far as propose TWO item setups for all teams, one for offense, one for defense, automatically switched when attacking/defending.
In the end, it would make little difference.

=>if having 2 item setup is ok, then I guess you are right.


and 10 why are you punishing archers/melee tanks?
PUNISH ? This is HELPING them.

=>teams loses the ability to having only a big bow or big melee weapon. I assume the WA will not stay the same and effectively be doubled (instead of 1 big item, its 2 now), making it necessary to have both a bow and melee weapon. (otherwise you are giving up something without more power)

Sickone August 26 2008 7:17 AM EDT

Besides, it's only an issue for single minions (ToE, RoS, familiars work just fine for multiple-minion teams), and the ToA is underpowered to begin with compared to just about any other tattoo (I should know, I use one... the only REAL advantage is a minimal increase in damage, DX-countered by evasion and PTH- more than countered by evasion).

Sickone August 26 2008 7:19 AM EDT

"teams loses the ability to having only a big bow or big melee weapon. I assume the WA will not stay the same and effectively be doubled (instead of 1 big item, its 2 now), making it necessary to have both a bow and melee weapon. (otherwise you are giving up something without more power) "

I think you are misunderstanding something.

If now the WA is 10 mil NW, that's either 10 mil NW on ranged or 10 mil NW on melee, or 5 mil NW on each for no PR penalties.
With my proposed chance, it would be 10 mil NW on ranged AND 10 mil NW on melee without any PR penalties (20 mil total).
Still, any one of them would be limited to the same 10 mil NW for no penalties.

Wizard'sFirstRule August 26 2008 7:28 AM EDT

if currently WA is 10m, giving 10m melee and 10m range would mean that you need both a melee and range to be effective as a tank, right?

NIG August 26 2008 7:34 AM EDT

Sickone..you're pretty much just doubling the WA. Why don't we just double the weapon allowance instead of splitting it into Melee and range?

Ancient Anubis August 26 2008 8:02 AM EDT

1. whats wrong with a tsa and toa i love the idea :P

3. leave it as it is and bring in my idea of 1% leadership for every 100k battles challenged capped at 10% for 1 mil battles.

4. if only for the the sod, msk, elb axbow and exbow

5. No

6. No would like to c an increase to 65% for disenchantment rate of current listed items.

7. would be handy but i work off nw to enc more than wa

9. No

11. Would be nice

Cube August 26 2008 8:15 AM EDT

1. No, there's no reason for this and the system functions fine already.
2. How would it work with DBs?
3. No, the AoL and BoF were made to counteract the power of single minions.
4. Yes, no reason not to.
5. No, no reason to do this, and it would ruin things such as fighting with RoE etc.
6. No, store prices are lower as others have said.
7. Yes, but not very radical.
8. Why 2*WA?
9. Fireball needs some other fix.
10. Good idea.
11. I have already gone over why this won't work in previous threads. I don't hate the idea, it simply won't work this way.

"Sickone..you're pretty much just doubling the WA. Why don't we just double the weapon allowance instead of splitting it into Melee and range?"
He's not doubling it, he's making there no penalty to using two weapons, which is a good idea.

th00p August 26 2008 9:14 AM EDT

Okay, I'm trying not to be like everyone else and post on how everything is absolutely wrong, but with a list like that I can't help it. Apologies in advance to Sickone, I mean no harm to you, I just seem to 'dislike' your ideas.

1) Are you serious? Why not just let people equip 6 weapons at once?

2) I have no idea what you mean by this, but it sounds stupid.

3) You can't have more than one leader in a group.

4) This isn't so bad. But, Jon doesn't seem to want to do this, and therefore, you're stupid!

5) DUMBEST IDEA EVER. If this were to work, USD buyers would be in heaven. With prices as low as they are, what, like $3 a mil now, people would be jumping all over the sell-outs in order to up their tattoos that little bit more. Freed would have a tattoo to match his MTL, and then everyone would be screwed royally. Seriously, this is the only possible way to ABSOLUTELY GUARANTEE that people with USD can kick everyone else's butts. This idea deserves punishment. Seriously.

6) Most items aren't worth disenchanting. Why would you need to bother? The only ones that should be disenchantable are weapons that most people would use and may need to lose NW to get under the WA cap. Stupid.

7) This would be nice, and Verifex's Greasemonkey script had it, but either Jon is too lazy (not lazy, he does have a full-time job and a family to take care of, so he's just a busy man, and I thank him for spending as much time as he does on this game) or he doesn't want us knowing exactly what our WA is. So therefore, Jon wins, you're stupid.

8) Why? There's already a soft cap (not that soft, really, since you're just about dead if you go over) but I see no reason to penalize people further who are already receiving massive penalties to their stats. Stupid.

9) HO-LY CRAP. This is almost as dumb as #5. Without friendly fire, Fireball is clearly the best DD. There would be no reason to use anything else. That would make it the same as MM, hitting every turn, except FB hits everyone, not just one person, with no penalty. Shocking grasp is clearly a specialized spell, so that's not a big player, and I'm not even going to bother talking about how bad decay is. This game is about being fair, not having the OP strat of the month (everyone remember the ToA ELB archer?). STUPID.

10) People can setup their teams however they want. For someone who wants to bare it out during ranged and then pummel in evasion, why not? Are we not allowed to have strats that are focused on only one type of combat? And are you really trying to screw all archers over completely? Wow.

11) I was never a big fan of the rolling bonus. How it's set up now is fine with me, I just wish that the NCB BA costs were about half as much as they are, because it's just getting ridiculous. That being said, the rolling bonus is stupid.

th00p August 26 2008 9:20 AM EDT

12) Sorry I missed it at first. Yikes. Another one. Sure, AoF could be unforgeable, and that would help things the tiniest little bit. However, adding ANOTHER bonus? We've heard hundreds of outcries on how the AoF is OP. Usually when you're getting all those legitimate complaints, it's not time to be adding another positive bonus to the item. Especially with the complaints being that it adds too much to evasion, and by giving the team more DX it's really going to help that. Genius!

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 26 2008 10:19 AM EDT

"3. No, the AoL and BoF were made to counteract the power of single minions."

What power? All the top Teams are multi minion teams, and multi minions already have far more benefits than single minion teams.

If only because single minion teams gain no benefit from PL and can't use a Tattoo and a TSA.

miteke [Superheros] August 26 2008 10:22 AM EDT

#2 is pretty simple and something I've advocated for a long time. Evasion has a dex affect and a mth affect. The mth affect will never bring your pth to a negative value. To reiterate and reinforce, mth will only counteract a weapons pth thus being a NW buster, it will never counteract a dex advantage. This would make it extremely difficult to completely shut down a tank, though it would be relatively easy to limit the hits to 1X-2X per round. Evasion also adds defensive dex which will help in the dex determination, but tanks will have enough dex to at least give them a 50% chance to hit even with a very high defensive dex. DBs on the other hand would only cancel weapons pth since it gives no defensive dex. So a pair of +200 DBs against a character with a +20 weapon would only cancel the +20 of the weapon but do more affect beyond that. So a mage with +200 DBs and a dex of 20 could still expect 1.5 times per round instead of 3.5 times per round (assuming the minion is facing someone with a +200 weapon).

Advantages:
1) Tanks can hit again.
2) It makes the dex competition a lot more significant.
3) You can't slap a pair of +200 DBs on a low level character and slaughter all the tanks playing at that level.
4) Beating tanks would require more depth than Evasion + AoF.
5) It's more in line with AMF, the mage defense, which requires a heck of a lot more points to shut down a mage strat than evasion does.


Possible disadvantages
1) I'm not sure if it will still balance the archer damage advantage. I think it will, but I'd need to see. Tanks need a boost, but I'm not sure archers do. I'm playing an archer now and have hit the level where high level evasions are prevalent and it is becoming tough to get that 100% bonus, whereas I see other strats keeping that bonus a bit longer so maybe it would not be a bad thing?
2) It will require Jon to do a bit of work to redo the calculation of hit. Hopefully it is localized code, but if it is not it could be ugly.
3) Oversized DBs would be a waste of PR. You would have to use some thought on what size to use.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 26 2008 10:33 AM EDT

"1. Allowing tattoos to be used alongside body armor, or at least capes/robes"

Body Armour, no. But Robes, why not. Only thing is then, every Tattoo Wearer will equip a Robe for a little extra AC, at no extra cost.

"2. Capping evesion minus PTH effect at 0 total PTH (no longer also double-dip into DX-based CTH that is already lowered by the defensive DX it grants)"

;) Can only Agree. As for DBs, I wouldn't include DBs with this.

"3. Granting leadership bonuses for the minion wearing the leadership items too, not just for the rest of the team"

Currently, it's only for one minion behind, not the rest of the team. If we were to include the wearing minion, it would probably have to lose the boost to another minion. Making it a less interesting choice.

"4. Ranged weapons added to the "scrap yard""

Sure. But even if it's only the big guns (ELB, MGS, SoD, A/EXBows), who actually uses the other Missile weapons anyway? But that's the same for Melee. ;)

"5. Making tattoos forgeable and blacksmithable (but not disenchantable)"

Instead, how about the ability (at a cost) for the TA to merge two Tattoo's (of the same type), increasing the larger Tattoo by an amount.

"6. Adding ALL items (except tattoos) to the disenchant list at blacksmith"

Could we get to a position that someone could make a profit forging easy small items, then disenchanting them for cash?

"7. Displaying WA in the character page"

Yo!

"8. Capping weapon NW at 2*WA (take NW equally off both x and + for whatever goes above)"

What do you mean by the cap? The wepaon no longer has an effect over that size, but doesn't increase PR?

"9. Remove the friendly fire from fireball"

Or up it's damage to allow it to reliably kill in Ranged.

"10. Rework WA to be max(ranged,melee) NW instead of ranged+melee NW."

That takes away choice. As of now, you have to decided whether to specilaise and have a large Ranged or Melee weapon, or to spread your WA over both. Wit this, there's no reason not to equip a ranged and melee weapon.

"11. Rolling bonus introduced for non-N*B in form of BA regen rate multipliers"

Or any version of the ideas going around atm. ;)

"Also, add #12 to the list...
AoF should become ELVEN amulet of focus, and it should also boost DX, not just skills (and it should become unforgeable too)."

Nice idea! ;) I'd love my EAoF to not only increase my UC weapon by 30% (including it's PTH) but to also increase my Dex by 30% as well! WooT!. ;)

three4thsforsaken August 26 2008 10:45 AM EDT

#3 I say no.

Giving SFBM an additional 30+% boost to DD with BoF and AoF is anything but balanced, besides it defeats the purpose of leadership, and the stragetic value of them. Besides, you know how Jon feels about single minions.

Lord Bob August 26 2008 11:13 AM EDT

"Currently, it's only for one minion behind, not the rest of the team."

Incorrect.
From the Wiki:
* Bonus 1% to the strength and direct damage spells of your other minions per enchantment point, while your first minion is alive wearing this amulet.
* +1 to-hit to your other minions per enchantment point, while your first minion is alive wearing this amulet.

Sickone August 26 2008 4:01 PM EDT

"Sure, AoF could be unforgeable, and that would help things the tiniest little bit. However, adding ANOTHER bonus? We've heard hundreds of outcries on how the AoF is OP. Usually when you're getting all those legitimate complaints, it's not time to be adding another positive bonus to the item. Especially with the complaints being that it adds too much to evasion, and by giving the team more DX it's really going to help that. Genius!"


The AoF already (indirectly) adds defensive DX by boosting Evasion levels.
People wearing the AoF for the evasion bonus don't have DX trained, so the only people benefiting from the "EAoF" DX bonus would be tanks.

__


"If this were to work, USD buyers would be in heaven. With prices as low as they are, what, like $3 a mil now, people would be jumping all over the sell-outs in order to up their tattoos that little bit more. Freed would have a tattoo to match his MTL, and then everyone would be screwed royally. Seriously, this is the only possible way to ABSOLUTELY GUARANTEE that people with USD can kick everyone else's butts."

Not like they can't throw cash at it to buy a high-level tattoo anyway... just look at the not-quite-maximum-level tattoos, but closely below. USD spenders most of them. And you can bet they got them CHEAPER than NW value.
If anything, it will provide a nice cash sink, and will increase the USD value of CB$, which will REDUCE the influence USD spending has.
:)


"Instead, how about the ability (at a cost) for the TA to merge two Tattoo's (of the same type), increasing the larger Tattoo by an amount. "

That could work too. Anything that allows to increase tattoo level. It's the only gear that CAN'T be increased in NW normally, and you can never hope to have it scale with your MTL unless you run multiple N*Bs or keep insta-ing up. And even then the selection is limited.

If you're REALLY worried about overpowered tattoos, well, why not decrease MTL then, or increase PR addition by tattoo NW instead ?





" "8. Capping weapon NW at 2*WA (take NW equally off both x and + for whatever goes above)"

What do you mean by the cap? The wepaon no longer has an effect over that size, but doesn't increase PR? "

Yeah, pretty much that. Call it a temporary partial disenchant.
This is only so that you allow people to use oversized weapons (at REDUCED stats) without murdering their fighting capabilities completely.
This is especially important for newer players using rentals, or very new players getting a high NW weapon from the shop.

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] August 26 2008 6:17 PM EDT

Aof is already unforgeable...

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 26 2008 6:18 PM EDT

"If you're REALLY worried about overpowered tattoos, well, why not decrease MTL then, or increase PR addition by tattoo NW instead ?"

I've advocated lowering the MTL for ages. ;)

Sickone August 26 2008 6:36 PM EDT

Having a MTL that matches "regular" (as opposed to lesser) tattoo growth makes a lot more sense, IMO.
Right now tats grow at 33% (lesser) or 66% (regular) of MTL, which is kind of screwed up... the whole reason I asked for them to be forgeable.
If you decrease MTL to match growth, the request I made about them being forgeable is no longer necessary.


P.S. Why are the abbreviation to "max tattoo level" and the word describing the ability to forge an item not in the dictionary ?

Colonel Custard August 27 2008 12:28 AM EDT

Sorry, Sickone. I'm usually all about your ideas, but I think you may have been off your game today.

1. It's one of those trade-offs in the game. I would love to be able to equip a TSA and an MCM along with my Gi, but I can't. You have to pick which abilities and bonuses you get for each item slot, and choose carefully. I can't equip every piece of armor I would like to simultaneously, and it's kinda the same thing here. You can only put things together so many ways, and you have to evaluate which one is best for your strat/what is feasible for you.

2. Whenever Jon fixes game balance issues that players have brought up, he puts a twist on it, it seems (I mean, who saw ENC coming as it was implemented? All I heard was "Weapon Cap, just like MTL!"). This suggestion for Evasion-fix has been given a couple of times, and there's question as to whether or not it would be enough/if it would have the desired effect at all points of the curve. As far as Evasion goes, I'm counting on Jon to come through with the unexpected.

3. I don't use an AoL, and never really had much interest in the item, so I don't really know or care about this one. From what I understand, it seems pretty fair as it is.

4. Dunno about this one.

5. How does NW scale with tattoo level? My tat is under 3.2 mil and it's close to 60mil NW, I believe. If I'd had to invest that much cash into just getting a tat that high, my SoD would be like x200 +50 or something.

6. Already addressed, I believe.

7. Sure

8. ENC already works as a very effective weapon cap, I think. It seems to me that it was actually implemented in response to demands for a weapon cap (or at least in response to the same circumstances that prompted those demands).

9. I'll leave this to others. Again, I think this is an issue of having a two-sided sword.

10. If you split the WA into two separate categories, it would force tanks to invest money into a very undersized melee weapon and a very undersized ranged weapon. Maybe I could see this implemented if WA were doubled, back up to what it used to be before the ENC change, so that NW cap for any one weapon would remain the same, but tanks would have the option of wielding a ranged + melee weapon again?

11. I like this idea. I think I fully back it.

Colonel Custard August 27 2008 12:33 AM EDT

Oh, I just saw the rationale behind #8, where it's for new players using rentals. I do suppose that could be a good way to help out newer players, and maybe rein in some of the 6/20ers who don't care about WA. Though, really, I can't think of anyone who has a weapon at twice their WA... (*cough* AA *cough*)

Number 12, I'm neutral on. I guess I'm kinda against it, because I figure there's no compelling reason to change it for me, though another DX boost always helps me.

Brakke Bres [Ow man] August 27 2008 7:53 AM EDT

"1) Tanks can hit again.
2) It makes the dex competition a lot more significant.
3) You can't slap a pair of +200 DBs on a low level character and slaughter all the tanks playing at that level.
4) Beating tanks would require more depth than Evasion + AoF.
5) It's more in line with AMF, the mage defense, which requires a heck of a lot more points to shut down a mage strat than evasion does."

1) Ow yes it will make the tanks hit again, about 3 times each round because of the huge dex advantage.
2) Which dex competition are you talking about? Who trains dex anyway on a mage? Tanks VS tanks is never a problem, but tanks vs non dex targets is!
3) You can quite easily with a junctioned familiar, so this doesn't work.
4) And how do you propose to stop a tank with +200 and x10000 on pounding on your mage? (like I said before: tanks vs tanks its no problem)
5) Really does AMF require that much to give damage back and lowering the damage at the same time? If evasion gets "fixed" then AMF should stop its duality too! Then only lowering damage or just returning damage and not both!

superior me August 27 2008 8:34 AM EDT

pizzaman you are the most bias person on cb =)

i'll give you a real example of how evasion is OP using you and me

with my ToA on (which is higher than my MTL) im

4.5m str
2.4m dex
archery at 1.00
using a 42m nw ELB

The Gold Medalist Archer's shot ricocheted near OP skill user


The Gold Medalist Archer overshot OP skill user


The Gold Medalist Archer's shot went wide of OP skill user


The Gold Medalist Archer's shot flew past OP skill user


The Gold Medalist Archer undershot OP skill user


The Gold Medalist Archer undershot OP skill user


i think you know who "OP skill user" is anyway im a 1 minion ToA archer your a 4 minion team so you exp isnt focused at all compared to mine yet i cant hit....... fair how?

evasion needs to be changed if that doesnt show you i'll be more than happy to show you how even a +160 SoD cant hit on you

Sacredpeanut August 27 2008 9:24 AM EDT

"1) Ow yes it will make the tanks hit again, about 3 times each round because of the huge dex advantage."

I think you're overestimated the effect that change (2) would have. It is impossible to get hit 3 times in a round due to the DX gap alone. At BEST this would allow maybe half a hit a round for tanks that previously did not hit at all. The change would actually have zero effect in a lot of battles.


"2) Which dex competition are you talking about? Who trains dex anyway on a mage? Tanks VS tanks is never a problem, but tanks vs non dex targets is!"

Lots of mages train DX in the form of defensive DX from evasion. Currently, against evasion minions, many tanks see little benefit from their dex because any CTH granted from the dex gap is eaten up by evasion "double dipping" into any dex granted CTH. It already dips once through defensive DX lowering the tanks DX based CTH, does it really need a second bite at the cherry?

"4) And how do you propose to stop a tank with +200 and x10000 on pounding on your mage? (like I said before: tanks vs tanks its no problem)"

Again I think you're overestimating the effect this change would have - evasion would still be extremely effective at reducing tank hits.

Brakke Bres [Ow man] August 27 2008 9:36 AM EDT

To superior, the reason why you can't hit me is easy, I'm 162 evasion, good luck in hitting that. Second reason why you can't hit, 42 mil NW elb? that is real real small compared to other BIG archers. And besides you are hoping to kill of a well balanced team in 5 rounds? no one does that anymore. you still have 25 rounds left, but since you have 0 melee you only have 12 -13 rounds left.

To sacred peanut, Im talking about dex, not defensive granted by evasion. As you don't train dex as a mage but you train evasion.
You don't think you can't hit 3 times because of the dex gap? please even my really really small tank with +0 and 325 dex is actually hitting doubles and triples vs 20 dex targets so don't give me that crap.

The only thing that is "reducing" tank hits are the DB's, but those need a crap load of nw before they start working. Because of the non dex minions that are wearing these. And even db's don't work all that well. So when a tank finally makes it in the 30! rounds that you have, after that one is gone my enchanter fall pretty fast in one round because the three-four times they hit a round and then tanks come to my 77 evasion robf minion. Which should reduce the hits by one at least. But look they still hit it for three-four times a round.
So no, its not evasion that is overpowered is the dex that is overpowered. ON BOTH SIDES!

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 27 2008 9:44 AM EDT

"Currently, against evasion minions, many tanks see little benefit from their dex because any CTH granted from the dex gap is eaten up by evasion "double dipping" into any dex granted CTH. It already dips once through defensive DX lowering the tanks DX based CTH, does it really need a second bite at the cherry?"

:D

Win!

Henk, unless something's broke inside the current to hit mechanics, there's no way at all you can hit higher than a double with just Dex alone (and no +PTH from weapons/items).

Dex should only ever take you to around 165% chance to hit in total, so you'll never be guaranteed of that second hit per round.

Triples are out of the question with Dex based CTH alone. If you're hitting them, could you post a screenie, as this needs ot be looked at and fixed (or announced as a feature...).

Sacredpeanut August 27 2008 10:06 AM EDT

"To sacred peanut, Im talking about dex, not defensive granted by evasion."

Did you read the original post? This is an evasion change and it deals specifically with tank vs evasion mechanics. Normal dex vs normal dex (tank v tank) isn't the issue here.

"You don't think you can't hit 3 times because of the dex gap? please even my really really small tank with +0 and 325 dex is actually hitting doubles and triples vs 20 dex targets so don't give me that crap. "

I don't believe that you've seen a triple hit from DX alone. Why don't you post a battle log?

Sickone August 27 2008 10:07 AM EDT

Pizzaman, I can only say that you are either trolling, following your own agenda... or just having no clue precisely how combat in CB works (in particular, evasion).

FIRST, you can NEVER hit more than twice based on DX advantage alone.
With the MAXIMUM DX advantage (and 1.0 archery in case of bows), you get 2 hits from ELB, 1.9 hits from MSK, 1.6 hits from 1h melee weapons and only 1.4 hits from 2h melee weapons.
Yes, that's one hit and a second hit 40% of the time for 2h melee weapons if you have no plus on the weapon.
THE ONE AND ONLY WAY TO HIT MORE THAN TWICE WITH ANY WEAPON WHATSOEVER IS TO HAVE A WEAPON PLUS VALUE ABOVE THAT OF ENEMY EVASION.

SECOND, the AoF *does* grant a bonus to defensive DX that comes from the evasion skill. So, for an evasuon-training mage, it ALREADY boosts DX indirectly, but it boosts it nevertheless.
Not only that, but in RANGED rounds, that defensive DX gets multiplied so high, that it's not even funny.
While a tank needs shedloads of ST to both boost its damage potential AND to allow a higher weapon NW due to encumbrance issues, this means DX gets a backseat, so even if the tank uses elven gear, the boost is nowhere near that of a purely evasion-focused minion. Yes, a SINGLE minion in a 4-minion team can easily get more defensive DX than a single-minion tank usually gets in "regular" DX, due to the fact he's forced to pump a lot of HP/ST if he wants to be able to use any decent NW gear/weapons.

THIRD, not only does evasion get boosted to insanely crazy values, but it BOTH affects DX-based chance to hit (which is already low enough) AND the "magical" to-hit... and after all of that, if there's any "leftover" negative PTH effect, it gets applied too.


EXAMPLE

On an evasion minion, you add +10 elven cloak, +12 elven gloves, +22 elven boots and a +10 amulet of focus (total NW, around 5 mil or so).
That's 10%, 12%, 22% and 30% bonuses to evasion effect... a grand total of *1.953952 to evasion actual level. ALMOST DOUBLE. For 5 mil NW.

Now, let's say this is a 1.1 mil raw evasion minion (base effect 111). This boosts his effective level to almost 2.15 mil, for an effect of 145.

So, this minion who used 13.2 mil XP on evasion gets 2.15 mil effective DX (almost 25.8 mil XP) on top of a -145 enemy chance to hit, all for 5 mil NW.
Do you have ANY idea how much NW you need for +145 on one of the "large" weapons ? Somewhere in the vicinity of 35 mil NW.
Not only that, but your enemy has to get a X advantage to even hit you ONCE on average.

In other words, your enemy must expend about 40 mil XP and 35 mil NW to counter your 13 mil XP and 5 mil NW.
Even if you use the same type of gear, you're STILL missing that huge 30% DX boost from the AoF, and no sane person would use elven gloves on a tank (archers use BG, melee tanks use TG).



Now dare say again that evasion is NOT overpowered.

Brakke Bres [Ow man] August 27 2008 10:40 AM EDT

well its not.

Cube August 27 2008 11:01 AM EDT

^Water-tight, unbiased argument there
/me rolls eyes

Sickone August 27 2008 11:07 AM EDT

Ditto :(

Brakke Bres [Ow man] August 27 2008 11:20 AM EDT

lol, this thread is going about evasion again, so many tried it before and gave up.
And well simply, if you're using examples like: 'my archer can't hit you!?!' or something in the line of: 'zomg overpowered'. No really what do you expect?

As soon as jon says something about evasion, he fixes it or nerfs it or whatever, then we just find another way to beat tanks.

At present evasion is the ONLY way to combat tanks without having a tank yourself. As combating mages, there are far more options available then combating tanks. So as soon as this little unbalance is fixed. Lets talk then.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] August 27 2008 11:49 AM EDT

jon has spoken, change draws nigh!

http://www.carnageblender.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002WOh

last post by jon in that thread states evasion will be changed come change month. the only mystery is how and how much, and will it be enough to quell the complaints against it?

Cube August 27 2008 1:24 PM EDT

Only way to combat tanks? Show me an archer that can beat me.

Brakke Bres [Ow man] August 27 2008 2:02 PM EDT

meh overpowered SG user.

Wizard'sFirstRule August 27 2008 5:31 PM EDT

I am sure that if cubic uses CoC, it would be even stronger against archers. they have light armors.

Cube August 27 2008 5:47 PM EDT

SG is overpowered, but not versus single archers. They barely have any AC and usually have DM rather than AMF. CoC would work better.
This thread is closed to new posts. However, you are welcome to reference it from a new thread; link this with the html <a href="/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002Wi8">Radical changemonth potential ideas</a>