Farewell, RoE. (in General)
September 2 2008 3:19 AM EDT
Bit of wishful thinking there. But I do think its time that Carnageblender and the rune of enlightenment said their good-byes.
The RoE served a wonderful purpose in it's time. Boosting rewards and giving players a chance to compete. It was completely unique. You could play with a tattoo and maximizing your team or, at the cost of competing with teams using a tattoo, you could use a tattoo for the boosted experience. A great tool, a -unique- tool. No one was outstripping you unless they were burning more battles or using an RoE. If they were burning more battles, good for them! More dedication and they deserved it. If they had an RoE, you laughed and hugged tight to your ToA.
And then the NUB strolled along. Even here though, the RoE was a tool for helping those so far behind. Four months to achieve so much? Yes! They needed all the help they could get.
I think here, when the first NUBs started to pass by the veterans (once the NUB was ramped up) was when the RoEs usefulness either dimmed or became too great... But still, all is good. The new players need the help and CB has always done it's best to help them.
But then the NCB came along. Suddenly, -anyone- could have a chance to compete. Start over new and make a run for the top. It became, in internet gaming terms, "srsbisness". And it was. Every BA became crucial. Maximizing your potential became the name of the game. Trimming off unneeded PR to maximize rewards. The RoE only made sense. It stopped becoming something to get a slight edge on people and started becoming a necessity. You use an RoE until your max tat is over your tattoo, and then switch if you're concerned with your tattoo, or don't and get even greater rewards.
The problem now has become that each battle is SO important. So much experience. 3k experience in one battle? The RoE adds a huge amount to that. You look up one day and realize that an item adding 20% growth to someone is a REALLY big darn difference when the numbers are in the millions. I'm not going to pretend to know the math here. How many hundreds of thousands of MPR it adds to an NCB run.... But I really feel it's too much.
Because now it's not a decision. It's something you're expected to do. When the top guy uses the RoE.... You're suddenly stuck in the same position in which the N*B was created to fix. The RoE became less of a trade off and became an equalizer.
I'm having a hard time explaining this obviously. Simply put...
The RoE does not allow you to catch up. It simply stops you from falling further behind. It's become a requirement for competition, instead of an aid.
Honestly, I've always thought the actual game of CB was about choice. The RoE removes choice. Every NCB should not be created on the basis that an RoE should and must be equipped as long as possible to maximize potential.
Give us back our tattoos.
September 2 2008 3:22 AM EDT
I think maybe instead of elimination the ROE should re-allocate the xp between minions (without increasing it) so as to allow for greater customization of builds.
More choice (perhaps amulet instead of tat?).
September 2 2008 3:27 AM EDT
What's an RoE?
September 2 2008 3:32 AM EDT
Lol. Baddd comparison. I burn MAYBE half my BA and I buy BA about every other exp time ;P
Instead of trying to take apart an argument, why don't you find someone who started much closer to your time and burns similar BA with an RoE =)
September 2 2008 3:45 AM EDT
Very well, I burn maybe 2/3rds to 1/2 of my BA or so. More importantly, I also forgot the whole 4 months, 6 months thing, so my picture probably proves your point actually.
However, I think this can be considered more of an NCB problem. NCBs can power level tattoos for a pretty large cash reward, or they can use the RoE to get a much more xp than they are geared for, both seem like "exploits," but you can't just fix one.
September 2 2008 3:58 AM EDT
If you compare my 2 boxes for your 3 boxes, it looks like you outgrew me by about 50k mpr or 10%ish, so I guess you could simply lower the percentage to 10%...
Where did my thread go? :P
just power up the other tats so that RoE build will lose to proper tat build?
If the RoE is gone, how would other ncbs 'catch up' again?
Restart with a bigger bonus.
September 2 2008 7:35 AM EDT
Agreed the RoE makes a bigger problem then that it was trying to fix
September 2 2008 8:39 AM EDT
You can still get a pretty high MPR without using a RoE.
September 2 2008 10:05 AM EDT
+1 GW and Wasp.
September 2 2008 10:19 AM EDT
A few things to remember in this case...
Mainly... What is the RoE -adding- to the game? It takes away from strategy to a huge degree. You either are trying to compete and using an RoE or you're really not and you use your tattoo.
Also keep in mind that the removal of the RoE is not near as radical as it sounds. No one is basing a strategy around this. No one has 100 million NW invested in an RoE. The RoE is inflating MPRs and forcing new players to use it if they wish to compete.
September 2 2008 11:23 AM EDT
Or even a simple alteration, such as:
When RoE is placed on a minion, the XP from other minions is given to that one. So you could use it to alter your EXP distribution.
Still useful, but no longer an "essential" item for N*B runs.
September 2 2008 11:26 AM EDT
I would much like that change, considering I've never owned a RoE. I agree that it's very hard to be competitive without one, especially since I don't have the USD to buy BA.
September 2 2008 12:19 PM EDT
Well put. This idea definitely has my support.
September 2 2008 12:55 PM EDT
RoE is fine, it's the N*B system for XP gains that needs to go die in a fire (for cash gains, it's ok to have new users earn more, but that's about it).
Jonathan can dislike the "permanent but auto-adjusting rolling XP-related bonus" idea as much as any other guy, but it's the only sane option now.
So far the best solution I've seen for it (a solution that also addresses some of Jonathan's "rewarding lazyness" concerns) is to simply remove any and all of the current XP bonuses, but instead increase the BA regeneration rate the lower in MPR you are compared to top MPR (while keeping base rewards the same as now) : you can start catching up to the top at any time, but you actually have to put in more work too.
Personally, I think an XP bonus depending only on distance to top MPR is the simplest way to acheive this... the higher in MPR you get, the less of a bonus you get, so you can never surpass anybody that puts in as much effort as you do, and you can always catch up to somebody who puts in less effort than you do... how long that would take depends on how high the XP bonus is.
I thought that would mean a huge single tank with 20 hp kill slots? no thank you for that idea.
September 2 2008 1:29 PM EDT
SickOne - I still agree with you, of course, but this is the system that Jon apparently wants so this is the one that we have to work our ideas around for now.
September 2 2008 1:52 PM EDT
You could have it modify xp distribution still and not give a bonus. You don't have to make it absolute
On a single minion, does nothing.
On a two minion team, 40% increase on the wearer, 40% decrease on other minion.
On a three minion team, 60% increase on the wearer, 30% decrease on other minions.
On a four minion team, 80% increase on the wearer, 26.7% decrease on other minions.
Upping BA reg rate wouldn't solve anything, nobody could burn that much BA away, only those with a lots of time for 6 months!
No just increase the rewards given.
September 2 2008 1:57 PM EDT
Thank you, someone finally agrees with what I said in previous threads about that.
September 2 2008 4:30 PM EDT
"Upping BA reg rate wouldn't solve anything, nobody could burn that much BA away, only those with a lots of time for 6 months! "
If you can't burn all the "extra" BA, well, though luck, you're at worst progressing at the old rate (the one without BA rate boosts).
Those that do slug it out and do take advantage of the increased BA rate progress faster.
Besides, it wouldn't be a 6-months thing, it would be a PERMANENT thing.
September 2 2008 4:34 PM EDT
OB has a brilliant point. Changing the fact that the RoE generates more EXP would solve the problem. Re-directing a percentage of the EXP to the wearer would probably make the RoE do more of what it was intended to do in the first place.
If it was intended for mass growth then the changes to the N*B's have deemed the initial intention somewhat flawed and problematic.
September 2 2008 5:12 PM EDT
i like others to have the same chance i had with roe and attempt to surpass me. (not with super-extraordinary bonus)
September 2 2008 5:18 PM EDT
...So the game should continue to be unbalanced because it HAS BEEN unbalanced?
LA, they can pass you without using a RoE.
As long as they burn more BA then you, and get better rewards than you.
Which is impossible, as your rewards increase the higher you get. So they would have had to actually pass you (assuming you both burn and win equivalent BA...) to get the rewards to actually pass you.
And that's the problem, and why the RoE is used.
ow one reason why you can't increase the BA regen rates: Forging, like 1mil or 2mil nw a day kind of forging.
September 2 2008 5:55 PM EDT
GL, you lost me, "They can" but "it's impossible?" what are you trying to say?
The bonus has been designed to let people reach 95% of the top, with equivalent effort.
So put more effort in (and/or get better rewards, higher clan bonuses or challenge bonuses and the lke) and people can pass you without a RoE.
Then came the realisation that this is actually impossible, as you get better rewards the higher you are, so peole would have to be hitting higher than you (andpossibly be larger than you to do so) to get the rewards to pass you (with the slightly more equivalent effort, to get past that 95% target).
Which is impossible.
Which is why, the current bonuses are flawed, and will require a RoE used to pass you.
If the Top Spot is burning 100% of thier BA and has a near 100% win rate, there is *no way* to get better rewards than them, as they earn more than you will (if only for your time spent in the low ranks), and *can* earn.
So the only option is the RoE.
September 2 2008 6:04 PM EDT
And is also the reason I so vigorously hate the 6/20 setup for no BA miss.
I know everyone loves their comfortable little 6/20, but I truly hate it.
September 2 2008 6:41 PM EDT
Yeah! 6/20 sucks!
*grinds more BA*
I found 6 BA land without a bonus the most boring thing in the world. I don't know how you higher ups take it.
Frankly, if anything, RoE was a really fun tool to use. It was cool that I could benefit from my big tattoo I bought in my NUB and get nicer rewards for a bigger period of time. Concepts like defensive tattoos are interesting in this game.
As for it's balance, I'm not so sure what to think of it. All I see are people with gigantic tattoos to begin with training a large portion of their NCBs with an RoE. I don't find that imbalanced. Of course there are those few who just go all the way with an RoE and USD themselves a huge tattoo. That's really difficult and expensive though, but it does annoy me if people can just get top MPR that way.
But if I can suggest a solution, it would be to change the way RoE stacks with N*Bs. Perhaps take off half the bonus. Perhaps have it only affect early parts of it. But take it out completely? I think it adds a great part to the game to strategize a "growth plan" and then elegantly move into your final strat.
But as I continue to ramble, I'm starting to realize that RoE doesn't really belong in the top areas of the game. Perhaps it doesn't affect 6 BA? I don't know. LA, why are you so huge? You make it difficult for the rest of us ><.
September 2 2008 8:13 PM EDT
I am huge because I don't use tattoo much. Right now i think i have :
~14% clan bonus
~20% ROE bonus
~ 5% average fight bonus (max is 8%)
> 39% bonus
I grind with roe and now it is paying off moment for me, sort of just relaxing rather than the earlier race against Ranger. It is doable. If i could do it, so could you. I do save exp now like ranger did before. I train everyday but only on 1 minion. My setup is allowing ROE to be used freely.
Note: after my bonus is over. ROE usage helps my last hired minion became now bigger than 2nd hired minion, which is over 10mil exp difference when i hired last minion. It helps so much in fixing the balance of my team so that i cannot let ROE go :P
I would think my character is one of the most balance team in the game regarding exp distribution. No minion is left behind :P
September 2 2008 8:14 PM EDT
You all seem to forget that the added PR from larger tattoos is also a big factor in slowing growth and making RoE all that much more necessary.
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