One more thing.... fix Score drop when retraining. (in General)


DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] September 7 2008 10:41 PM EDT

I untrained a BASE Decay and it dropped my score 800k.... Can we please have this fixed.... that is alot of score and it takes days to get it back up to where it was before with all the retraining going on lately...

DoS [Demon Forging] September 7 2008 10:44 PM EDT

While you're at it, could you reset the Largest Blow ? I doubt anyone can get near 2 billion anymore o.o

SNK3R September 7 2008 10:47 PM EDT

Someone's jealous of my awesome hit. :P

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 8 2008 12:09 AM EDT

"it takes days to get it back up to where it was before"

why does it matter what your score is again?

QBOddBird September 8 2008 12:11 AM EDT

I *would* like to point out that when you drop your score from retraining, and you fight others, you then drop theirs due to the difference and cause your challenge bonus to drop.

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] September 8 2008 12:16 AM EDT

Exactly OB... and with everyone retraining then we get ourselves a 7/20 gap yet again where everyone starts to get negative challenge bonus' for several weeks till everything gets balanced out again...

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] September 8 2008 12:18 AM EDT

i could really care less about my score... it doesn't give me a challenge bonus... but i thought the reason the entire score system was changed was to keep the slump from 7/20 - 6/20 from happening again....

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 8 2008 12:27 AM EDT

"I *would* like to point out that when you drop your score from retraining, and you fight others, you then drop theirs due to the difference and cause your challenge bonus to drop."

i have only ever seen anecdotal evidence that this would affect anyone by any measurable amount. i also do not remember ever hearing anything definitive from jon that the score drop caused when fighting is based on score vs. score and not score vs. pr. we do know some calculations are based on the second but how do we know the other?

i do see that if my score went down, others that are beating me and getting a challenge bonus would get a lesser one, but that is not really a bad thing for me and perhaps would even be good as i might get fought less.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 8 2008 12:40 AM EDT

actually, the more that i think about it, if the score drop from fighting is based on score vs. score, perhaps it would be better based on score vs. pr instead.

it would be less manipulable, accidentally or intentionally and it would also fluctuate less.

superior me September 8 2008 6:40 AM EDT

when i retrained my dex into str i went from 3.5m score to 1.8m and i dropped freed from 4.7m score down to 3.9m and 800k score makes a large difference in challenge bonus

QBJohnnywas September 8 2008 6:43 AM EDT

I have to say, after retraining several times in the past couple of months due to strat tweaks I've never seen it affect me greatly. Score can climb pretty fast - I can catch up within the same day normally and any challenge bonuses I get from my opponents don't drop greatly. Currently I'm being farmed to the point where my score drops over a million and my catch up doesn't drop my opponents score too much, so my challenge bonuses aren't affected at all really.

I'd say leave it how it is; the retrain idiot tax!

Cube September 8 2008 8:02 AM EDT

I notice it only for that day, but I don't think it's necessary to change it. It makes sense this way.

Sacredpeanut September 8 2008 8:19 AM EDT

I just don't see the point of it myself. There's already an "idiot tax" or penalty or whatever you want to call it in the form of the loss of XP, is another one really necessary?

How does an untrain/retrain reduce the relative "goodness" of a team? Isn't that what score is meant to be an indicator of? Is it really necessary to reduce the use usefulness of score as an indicator of how good a team is any further?

There's nothing more annoying than burning through your fight list and running across someone that randomly gives pitiful rewards only to find the person has recently untrained/retrained and the score change has not been reflected in the fight list. Furthermore, if you are in a clan you can untrain/retrain a base FB a few times before you go to bed or if you're going to be away for a day or so to dramatically reduce the amount you get farmed during the night since you will drop down to the bottom of many fight lists.

TheHatchetman September 8 2008 9:48 AM EDT

"It makes sense this way."

base decay = 1/10000th of a team's MPR = 20% of your score gone to retrain...

How? o.O

Goodfish September 8 2008 9:58 AM EDT

If you don't want your score to drop, instead of retraining, just create a new character. That way you won't ever lose that huge chunk of score you'd have lost by retraining!

=P

Sickone September 8 2008 10:08 PM EDT

Apparently score is clipped down to PR whenever you retrain at all.

I have a feeling this is a bug, not a feature.

Cube September 8 2008 11:45 PM EDT

It was implemented when the new Score system was put in place. Jon said it was intentional, but probably not the best solution IIRC.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 15 2008 4:32 PM EDT

BUMP... people are gaming the score system now...

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] September 15 2008 4:38 PM EDT

I know this is an older thread, but I would like to point out where OB's thought could lead to. Basically around when I first joined CB there was a deadzone. Jon implemented a temporary score system to help eliminate this deadzone. Once this was removed however, scores began to increase at their own slow rate. Now that people know you can retrain to stop your opponents from getting challenge bonuses they are doing just that. This is a very good idea right, lower you opponents challenge bonus and help your clan score, wrong!! Imagine if everyone retrained just once one the same day, this lowering of scores is going to make a huge difference, over time just recreating the deadzone. Retrains should not lower score, there is no good to come of it.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 15 2008 4:43 PM EDT

at the very least score drop should be proportional to the XP retrained...

retrain 8 XP... lose 8 score

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] September 15 2008 4:45 PM EDT

I agree with Nov's post... and I vote for Nov for president!

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] September 15 2008 7:34 PM EDT

Yah I'm fine with Nov's idea, it does seems ridiculous to allow people to lower over 1M score and only lose like 1xp. This is just going to lower everyone's score and hurt those who are not yet in the 6BA regeneration rate.

God Of Fire September 15 2008 9:02 PM EDT

so then with novice's idea when you retrain 10mil xp your score will go negative or down to 1?

three4thsforsaken September 15 2008 9:19 PM EDT

sweet! I can't wait till retraining! ^__^

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] September 15 2008 9:50 PM EDT

No I don't think that's exactly what nov was going for, maybe something with percentages would work better. Like if you retrained 20% of your xp, then you lose 20% of your score, or maybe even 10%. You could play around with the exact ratios, but the system at hand should really be changed.

Sacredpeanut September 15 2008 10:03 PM EDT

Here's a simple formula

New score = VirtualMPR + (Score - VirtualMPR) * (1 - % of xp untrained)

So score loss would be proportional to the percentage of xp untrained but could not go below virtual MPR.


Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 15 2008 10:05 PM EDT

why does the untrain affect score at all?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 15 2008 10:30 PM EDT

i would guess the reason we have the current system is to keep people from untraining and then allowing a much lower character to be them and thus manipulate scores?

if that is the case and people are using the current system to manipulate scores and challenge bonus, then we really aren't any better off.

Cube September 16 2008 4:14 AM EDT

I agree; if more and more people start untraining to lower their score, might as well get rid of the score drop. It's not really necessary is it?

Kefeck [Demonic Serenity] September 16 2008 11:36 AM EDT

Maybe just drop the score drop during changemonth?

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] September 17 2008 8:56 PM EDT

Bump... anymore ideas folks? Or anything anyone else wants to say about this feature/bug?

Wizard'sFirstRule September 18 2008 6:17 AM EDT

I think its ok that MPR lost from retraining = score lost, but with a cap to make sure score never go below MPR for this reason alone.

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] September 18 2008 6:25 AM EDT

Tell me who in the top 300 or so or maybe even more actually has the same score as their Mpr... Sorry PK but that wouldn't help one bit.

Wizard'sFirstRule September 18 2008 7:40 AM EDT

or maybe capped at power.

Sickone September 18 2008 8:11 AM EDT

Reducing score to power (that's how it's done now) for ANY retrain, no matter how small (even a base "anything") :

* can be (ab)used to the (short-term) advantage of the one intentionally dropping score (avoid being clan-points farmed by making yourself a less desirable target rewards-wise)

* hurts EVERYBODY near that score range (people who have the retrainer in their fight list, people who attack those who attack him, etc) without a chance to counter it

* makes no sense at all in the first place (what's the point of it anyway ?)


Bottom line, it does a lot more bad than good... on second thought, it does no good at all.
So why do we have it anyway ?

QBOddBird September 18 2008 12:50 PM EDT

People retraining to lower their score reminds me of people undercutting everyone to sell faster.


It hurts yourself and everyone else, and only provides VERY short term benefits. It's _just_ _stupid_.


...yet, as dudemus has said, if we had a stupidity filter then CB would be bare.

Colonel Custard September 18 2008 1:22 PM EDT

OB, you just reminded me of my rage.

/shouts STOP BEING STUPID, EVERYBODY!

Koshka September 18 2008 2:12 PM EDT

"reminds me of people undercutting everyone to sell faster.
It hurts yourself and everyone else"

Apart from
a) those who want to buy things but not at the higher prices;
b) those who want to sell things and don't mind getting a bit less in order to actually sell their things, rather than seeing them sit in auctions unsold because the people in (a) either can't afford or choose not to pay the higher prices

In fact, undercutting only appears to hurt:
c) those who want as much money as possible, and thus set prices higher than the people in (a) will pay for them

Free market's a bitch, innit?

three4thsforsaken September 18 2008 2:12 PM EDT

wait...rage? RAGE!

Cube September 18 2008 2:33 PM EDT

I vote Koshka for president.
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