Possible Junction Bug (in General)


Sacredpeanut September 17 2008 10:58 PM EDT

With nothing equipped my Halidon's ST is 982,616

With a +21 BoM my Halidon's Strength is 1,768,708

My Strength has almost doubled - shouldn't I only be getting a 21% * 1.5 = 31.5% bonus to ST?

DoS September 17 2008 11:04 PM EDT

AoL

DoS September 17 2008 11:05 PM EDT

Err, nvm :S

Warbringer September 17 2008 11:08 PM EDT

At 1.0 you get 100% of the positive effect for most things, and 150% for ST and DX.

Warbringer September 17 2008 11:22 PM EDT

Nevermind my last post.

3D September 17 2008 11:51 PM EDT

Just loling at two people who posted and took their statements back.
Free bump.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 17 2008 11:56 PM EDT

stop complaining about extra bonuses...

PearsonTritonRaveshaw September 18 2008 12:02 AM EDT

lol novice. =P

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 18 2008 3:49 AM EDT

"stop complaining about extra bonuses..."

Why? ;)

It's obviously a bug, and it's not like you're using a Hal/Jig. :P

three4thsforsaken September 18 2008 3:52 AM EDT

you get a boost that based on your tattoo level, not your str. Obviously it's not in the wiki but I remember Nem was talking about this when he was using his Jiggy :P

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 18 2008 10:10 AM EDT

if it was something inherent to the tat level, why would it only show up when equipping a bom?

does anyone else get this or an extreme boost of some sort?

Sacredpeanut September 18 2008 10:11 AM EDT

"you get a boost that based on your tattoo level, not your str."

I don't understand sorry =/


Is anyone else using a Hal/Jig seeing unexpectedly large bonuses from DX/ST increasing equipment?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 18 2008 10:12 AM EDT

3/4's, what is your strength on the hal with and without the bom?

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 18 2008 10:20 AM EDT

I've pointed out the bonus was off enough times I'm going on the assumption that Jon set it higher than he stated (Wouldn't be the first time) and I certainly don't think it should be changed.

Sacredpeanut September 18 2008 10:20 AM EDT

With Elven Gloves +11

Halidon DX increased from 984,821 to 1,625,976.

This is a 65% increase in DX, it should give around a 11*1.5 = 16.5% increase.

The BoM increased ST by 80%, it should give around a 31.5% increase.

In both cases the bonus was exactly 48.5% (in absolute terms) larger than expected.




Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 18 2008 10:23 AM EDT

"and I certainly don't think it should be changed."

why exactly?

i would say something needs to be changed, either the description needs to be accurate or the bonus needs to be. otherwise we will see error threads all the time! : )

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 18 2008 10:26 AM EDT

If someone wants to calculate the actual bonus and post it I'd be stoked. I just don't think it's worth this big of a hubub, bub.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 18 2008 10:32 AM EDT

an extra half million in strength equates to how much extra damage per hit on a familiar that hits nearly every ranged round (due to the 100 cth on the weapons) and sometimes even twice against one of the highest evasions?

wouldn't that be about a million extra damage in ranged alone depending on how many double hits?

the way i see it is it could be the difference between several hal teams beating me or not, in which case i think the hubbub is quite justified.

Sacredpeanut September 18 2008 10:49 AM EDT

Some more testing -

+15 HoE - 72.5% bonus to ST, should be 22.5%.

Interestingly when I add the +21 BoM on top of that, the extra bonus calculates correctly (strength increases by an additional 31.5% of base and not 80%).

I'm interested to see what a +1 BoM gives to a junctioned familiar, I have a feeling it will give around a 50% bonus to ST. Does anyone have one of them to test?

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 18 2008 10:52 AM EDT

looks like 150% means that there is a flat 50% bonus to stats when junctioned...

Sacredpeanut September 18 2008 11:17 AM EDT

Final testing for the night. I used a base pair of Tulkas that I black-smithed point by point.

985,640/985,640 +1 Tulkas (0% bonus)

985,655/985,655 +2 Tulkas (0% bonus)

985,663/985,663 +3 Tulkas (0% bonus)

985,676/985,676 +4 Tulkas (0% bonus)

1,552,672/985,824 +5 Tulkas (57.5% bonus)

1,552,660/985,816 +6 Tulkas (57.5% bonus)

1,552,625/985,794 +7 Tulkas (57.5% bonus)

1,552,549/ 985,746 +8 Tulkas (57.5% bonus)

1,552,477/985,700 +9 Tulkas (57.5% bomus)

1,626,457/985,732 +10 Tulkas (65% bonus)

1,626,655/985,852 +11 Tulkas (65% bonus)


There's a few interesting things going on here.

1) No bonus to strength at all until the Tulkas are +5

2) At +5 the bonus jumps to 57.5% (should be 7.5% at this stage). There seems to be an additional flat 50% bonus to strength added in.

3) The bonus to Strength seems to get "stuck" and increases in steps rather than in a constant fashion.

I have no idea whether this is working as it should be, it is working differently to how it is documented however.

Personally the flat 50% bonus doesn't seem right to me. A 57.5% bonus from a tiny set of +5 Tulkas gauntlets just seems excessive.

QBOddBird September 18 2008 12:45 PM EDT

Why complain about getting more bonus than you paid for?


And yeah, IIRC you get a flat 50% bonus to start off from. It's nice, especially for

1) A familiar that only works properly for 6 rounds max
2) A formerly weak, now nearly useless familiar that's had its endurance dropped

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 18 2008 1:15 PM EDT

"Why complain about getting more bonus than you paid for?"

Because we shouldn't highlight and report only Bugs that are detrimental to us OB. ;)

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 18 2008 2:03 PM EDT

"And yeah, IIRC you get a flat 50% bonus to start off from."

if this is the issue, why would it not kick in until you get to a plus five on the item, wouldn't it work with base stats?

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] September 18 2008 2:12 PM EDT

Everything that I have junctioned onto jiggy that effected stats worked off of the base tat level as opposed to the actual amount of str or dex. I would assume that it works the same for mage familiars but those have the stat same as the tat level.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 18 2008 2:18 PM EDT

even that wouldn't explain the step values we see above though.

Sacredpeanut September 18 2008 9:03 PM EDT

"Why complain about getting more bonus than you paid for?"

Because I don't think it's right that I can get more than a 50% bonus to ST and DX with a couple of items that are little more than base. It's essentially free XP for me since the items have almost no effect on my encumbrance/PR.

three4thsforsaken September 18 2008 9:08 PM EDT

considering the boostability of DD familiars with AoF. I don't believe it's at all imbalanced

Cube September 18 2008 9:10 PM EDT

What about for people that don't use familiars..? Both are unbalanced?

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] September 18 2008 9:14 PM EDT

I could care less.... they all die screaming in pain against me....

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 19 2008 12:04 AM EDT

it is not really about whether it is balanced or not, that is another discussion entirely. what matters here is that something is not working the way it is documented to work. either it is buggy or the documentation needs to be changed.

from the posts above it is looking more like buggy to me, but only jon or ns knows that for sure...now if they would just let us know which it is.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 19 2008 11:37 PM EDT

three4thsforsaken what is your hal's strength with and without your bom equipped?

three4thsforsaken September 19 2008 11:41 PM EDT

without Strength 3,135,585
with Strength 5,879,315
it's a BOM +25

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 20 2008 12:13 AM EDT

so that is an 87.5% increase rather than the 37.5 documented in the wiki.

"With Elven Gloves +11

Halidon DX increased from 984,821 to 1,625,976.

This is a 65% increase in DX, it should give around a 11*1.5 = 16.5% increase."

i totally missed that it was working with dex as well. if you say junction bom for strength and elven gloves for dex, do you get both at the 50% extra level? if so that is one heckuva return on investment!

Sacredpeanut September 20 2008 10:11 AM EDT

"if you say junction bom for strength and elven gloves for dex, do you get both at the 50% extra level? if so that is one heckuva return on investment!"

Yes, there appears to be a flat 50% extra bonus that isn't documented when equipping DX/ST enhancing gear.

Personally I think it isn't working as designed. Going from Tulkas +4 to Tulkas +5 (for a few thousand $CB) increases the ST bonus from 0 to 57.5%. That to me is buggy.

Colonel Custard September 20 2008 10:17 AM EDT

What about the Mage Shield? Junctioning a BoM has increased effectiveness; does junctioning a MgS or an SoC have a similar boost in its effectiveness? (Actually, does SoC's effect even junction at all?)

What I'm asking is, could someone Junction a Mgs + 7 for 55% magic reduction, or something similar?

Or could one Junction a SoC, and have JKF (hammer-type UC damage) hit back for 150% the absorbed level, or 50% extra damage, or however the formula works?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 20 2008 10:17 AM EDT

so for a <5 million xp investment in junction, you are able to get a 12 million xp return on investment?

you are able to get a half a million in free dex and the same in free strength for about 1 million in stat boosts total. this would equate to approximately the 12 million free xp. if this isn't buggy, then it must be jon's idea of alchemy! woot for crafting.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 20 2008 10:43 AM EDT

the sacrifice and vulnerability of familiars balance it quite well...

Sacredpeanut September 20 2008 10:47 AM EDT

Thats not the point novice..

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 20 2008 11:11 AM EDT

is it really such a sacrifice when you can get a 240% return on xp investment though? doesn't that also help with the vulnerability as well?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 20 2008 11:28 AM EDT

"the sacrifice and vulnerability of familiars balance it quite well..."

if jon was going to give 240% roi on skills for xp for sacrifice and vulnerability, where do the single minions start lining up? ; )

Colonel Custard September 20 2008 11:30 AM EDT

"...whether it is balanced or not, that is another discussion entirely. what matters here is that something is not working the way it is documented to work. either it is buggy or the documentation needs to be changed."

I think this is the point that everyone else is working on right now, novice.

That said, can we agree that neither of the physical damage familiars behave as OP, despite the massive boost they get from Junction?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 20 2008 11:38 AM EDT

does this work with both dex and str on the jkf? if so does it also work with the uc?

Colonel Custard September 20 2008 12:54 PM EDT

I'm curious about that, too. I may be getting a Jiggy in a week or so, and then I'll be able to contribute data. Can anyone do it now, though?

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] September 20 2008 1:18 PM EDT

I will say that JKF's do hit hard and for quints... but I don't know if I can call that overpowered. Quads on my minion that is wearing +180 DB sound a little too good to be imho.

three4thsforsaken September 20 2008 10:52 PM EDT

the real question is not whether these boost are a bug or a feature, but rather whether it's balanced. Although they get tons of str, Hal has only to deal with ranged rounds, and Jiggy is stuck punching with his bare fist.

Is the damage OP for a familiar? Compared to DD familiars?

Sacredpeanut September 20 2008 11:47 PM EDT

I tested with a Jiggy, the bonuses are working the same as with the Hal (flat 50% extra bonus).

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 21 2008 12:01 AM EDT

"the real question is not whether these boost are a bug or a feature, but rather whether it's balanced."

i disagree wholeheartedly. buggy things are not as documented or understood and thus are very hard to explain to others how they even work. bugs need to be resolved, then the balance issues can be addressed.

it would be quite silly, imho, to balance with bugs in place.

as it works may actually be jon's intention, in which case the documentation just needs to be worked on. either way, fix the bug then address balance.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 21 2008 12:16 AM EDT

this may help illustrate my point. if you think the familiars really need this extra strength and dex to compete, wouldn't it make much more sense for jon just to increase the amount the familiar trains? then you wouldn't have this confusion about how much they get when junctioning and you woulnd't have people saying that junction just gives too much roi for its expenditure.

this is assuming that there is no reason for only junctioned familiars to be able to compete as i would assume we would want all of them to be viable?

Colonel Custard September 21 2008 6:19 PM EDT

"this is assuming that there is no reason for only junctioned familiars to be able to compete as i would assume we would want all of them to be viable?"

I can think of one reason that seems to make sense to me:
If you want to use a familiar as a really good minion, you have to invest in it. If you didn't have to devote an entire minion (and a decent chunk of that minion's XP into Junction) to holding a tat in order to have it work as a viable main damage dealer to build your team around, why not just go single-minion archer and throw a big jiggy on to clean up during melee? You can do that now, but because you're training Archery, you can't put Junction in your skill slot, which makes your Jiggy less of a full-on melee domination machine. Similarly, if a Hal were just as good (or 80% as good) without Junction as with, you could throw a Hal on a BL tank and dominate ranged and melee alike. Same goes for DD familiars.

Junction makes your familiar so much better because it kinda makes you have to use the familiar as your main damage dealer. You can't Junction a familiar on an Evasion tank, an Evasion Mage, a BL tank, an Archer, a Monk, a PL wall, or an SS wall. You can junction a familiar onto a Mage, but that mage's DD and HP would be compromised by its obligation to put xp into Junction. Additionally, in the case of the Jiggy and Hal familiars, most mage equipment wouldn't really help the familiar any by being Junctioned to it, right?

I think Junction is a good way to do both ranged and melee damage, or maybe both magical and physical damage, effectively with a single team. But you have to be tricky about it. Or, if you don't really have to be tricky about it, then I'm feeling cooler than I should be feeling about my next strat idea. :p

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 21 2008 7:22 PM EDT

"(and a decent chunk of that minion's XP into Junction)"

assuming a ten million level tat, you need to have 2 million in junction for the max efffect. unless junction costs an ungodly amount and not 12 xp per level, then it really doesn't seem that much of an investment at all.

i have 60 million xp in evasion at the moment, after all.
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