Rune of Enlightenment (in Changelog)

AdminJonathan October 5 2008 9:10 AM EDT

Now focuses all experience on its wearer, but does not generate any additional exp gain (besides the standard 4% naming bonus).

Colonel Custard [The Knighthood] October 5 2008 9:11 AM EDT


lostling October 5 2008 9:11 AM EDT


lostling October 5 2008 9:11 AM EDT


BootyGod October 5 2008 9:16 AM EDT

Thank you, Jon.

Colonel Custard [The Knighthood] October 5 2008 9:19 AM EDT

"OMG KILL SLOTS" Yeah, really.

Too bad for those of us who worked out a strategy where you want experience on more than one minion...

Is this a dual-damage nerf, Jon?

Or can we make RoE equippable to multiple minions at once (and junctionable!)?

AdminJonathan October 5 2008 9:22 AM EDT

> Too bad for those of us who worked out a strategy where you want experience on more than one minion...

Unless you wanted *exactly* the ratio that the old RoE would give you, balancing exp across multiple minions is easier now, not harder.

Colonel Custard [The Knighthood] October 5 2008 9:24 AM EDT

Are they supposed to be leveling?

BootyGod October 5 2008 9:24 AM EDT

Enlightenment lvl 562 owned by Shadow Legend (Shadow Lord)

Are RoEs supposed to be levelling now?

If so, could you edit your first post to say as much? That's almost as big of a deal XD

Admin{CB1}Slayer333 [SHIELD] October 5 2008 9:25 AM EDT

Are RoE's supposed to be leveling, and does this have some effect on how much EXP they are transferring? Because my non-RoE minions are still gaining EXP.

AdminJonathan October 5 2008 9:28 AM EDT


Admin{CB1}Slayer333 [SHIELD] October 5 2008 9:32 AM EDT

In post-battle stats it still shows up as every minion getting EXP, but the train page reflects it properly

PearsonTritonRaveshaw October 5 2008 10:03 AM EDT

I'm glad I sold mine a while back.... A loooong while back....

PearsonTritonRaveshaw October 5 2008 10:14 AM EDT

<DrAcO5676> you actually get more than 4% from a named Roe
<DrAcO5676> you get 16% ^_^
<{cb1}Linguala> really?
<[RP08]ColonelCustard> wah?
<Raveshaw> nuh uh
<DrAcO5676> But don't tell Jon O_o

Well, this sentence is to avoid the spell checker.

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] October 5 2008 10:14 AM EDT

You actually gain 16% exp from Roe naming.... not just 4%, your multiplication is a little off there Jon....

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] October 5 2008 10:27 AM EDT

How about switching the name for Slayer whose RoE I named yesterday.

Now I'm wondering what's the next item the rock throwing mob is going to give the dead horse nerf to...

Less choice is lame.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] October 5 2008 10:28 AM EDT

So I could start a 4 minion team, use a RoE on a single Minion, and have in essence a Single Minion team with 3 20HP kill slots.

That can all wear Leadership Gear.

Oh well, bye bye single Minions.

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] October 5 2008 10:29 AM EDT

I am wrong, sorry for second guessing you ^_^

AdminJonathan October 5 2008 10:30 AM EDT

> So I could start a 4 minion team, use a RoE on a single Minion, and have in essence a Single Minion team with 3 20HP kill slots.

Sure. Or you could use your tat slot for something that won't be worthless vs a 1k fireball.

BootyGod October 5 2008 10:34 AM EDT

Jon! Hey! No giving strat advice!

Ignore Jon, fellow carnage players. Feel free to use 3 kill slots! I PROMISE I won't train a incredibly small fireball to make it completely worthless.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] October 5 2008 10:36 AM EDT

Not even worthless then Jon. For one round your Main takes 25% FB damage.

Maybe we'll see poeple train a near base FB now just to take out these 20HP Kill slots. If we get enough (or a high enough) teams doing this.

But that's not possible if you're running a single/small minion count team yourself...

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] October 5 2008 10:46 AM EDT

the RoE saves you the cost of minion purchases and the expense of ability to fight higher and the XP the tattoo gains...

that poor horse...

Usul [CHOAM] October 5 2008 10:54 AM EDT

the whole package will be complete if you let us by a base minion too :D I don't mind if it cost 1mil each after certain amount of total exp :D

{Wookie}-Jir.Vr- October 5 2008 10:56 AM EDT

Would it be possible to have the RoE usable with tattoos now? I'm running an RoBF strat, and it would be nice to spread some EXP across the board, which would be impossible for RoBF strats, without retraining... or People using Junction familiar strats.

Relic October 5 2008 11:03 AM EDT

So, along with this change, are you going to make it so we can hire free additional minions? 50+ million for another minion is crazy because it isn't even worth it in the economy or MPR wise.

To spend 50 mil CB2 for another 200k mpr is crazy. How many characters have sold for 50 mil CB2, none that I know of, and that is for just one minion.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] October 5 2008 11:06 AM EDT

/me glares at Relic

So now that mid level users have a "free" new minion option you want it too?

The choice for low minion teams is between having to buy the minions and gain the tat levels, or forgo the tat growth and save on minion buys...

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] October 5 2008 11:06 AM EDT

"Sure. Or you could use your tat slot for something that won't be worthless vs a 1k fireball."

"Ignore Jon, fellow carnage players. Feel free to use 3 kill slots! I PROMISE I won't train a incredibly small fireball to make it completely worthless"


Relic October 5 2008 11:08 AM EDT

Sorry for the double post, but also with the RoE now not being an option to accelerate growth for a NUB/NCB. What is the plan for the bonus percentage? (Increase it?)

If I bought two more minions (which would be over 100 mil cb2), I still would not reach FTW's MPR. I would be about 4.08 mil MPR, I would fall short by 300K+.

I used the RoE for 2.5 months of my NCB, without it I wouldn't have gotten near as high as I did. I think the NCB is still falling short of its design.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] October 5 2008 11:09 AM EDT

No nov, but he's just saying it kindof sucks for those of us who didn't have this option and won't be able to benefit from it short of starting a NCB. We already paid like 20-30M for a minion, now you don't even have to.

BootyGod October 5 2008 11:17 AM EDT

Okay, Rubber, *equips tiny SoD*

3D October 5 2008 11:23 AM EDT

Well dang.
RoE is crap now.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] October 5 2008 11:24 AM EDT

EC. ;)

QBsutekh137 October 5 2008 11:25 AM EDT

Um, 1K FB won't do squat if that one ultra-huge minion has PL.

I think you are forgetting your own programming, Jonathan, if you think only having 20 HP is a problem any more in the game. You don't need AMF to fight it, you just need PL to stop them from dying.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] October 5 2008 11:27 AM EDT

/me hugs Sut.

QBsutekh137 October 5 2008 11:29 AM EDT

And even without PL, there is still no reason NOT to have the other three minions there. At the very least they dilute that first FB (or CoC if the opponents just uses that.

Name one reason that an RoE user trying to make one minion as large as possible wouldn't just tack on three other minions at the start? I'm only on half a cup of coffee here, but I can't think of a single reason.

Sure, we could just change the definition of "single minion" to "either one minion or multiple minions where one is wearing an RoE", but that sounds like semantics. The other minions WOULD be useful as kill slots, and they would detract nothing form the RoE-wearer.

That's called a no-brainer choice.

QBsutekh137 October 5 2008 11:30 AM EDT

Sorry, triple-post... Maybe with the extra changemonth days, my PL point will become moot? Pretty please? With sugar on it? *smile*

AdminJonathan October 5 2008 11:33 AM EDT

No, I'm not forgetting PL. We were talking about kill slots.

RoE + PL means you're giving up both your tat AND skill options. Again, probably not the best choice.

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] October 5 2008 11:34 AM EDT

The problem is Sut that you get no extra xp (well 4%) from the RoE now so using one at all is not a good trade off versus a tat.

You are correct it is a no brainer to have 4 minions in the new "single minion" build but only if intending to always use RoE. I'd rather stay single and use a tattoo I think.

AdminJonathan October 5 2008 11:34 AM EDT

> Name one reason that an RoE user trying to make one minion as large as possible wouldn't just tack on three other minions at the start?

I already did -- you'll do better leveling up a "real" tat.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] October 5 2008 11:34 AM EDT

Sute, while that does stop them really being kill slots any more (apart from an utter foil to Decay...) it is a good way for a single minion to get the 10% Damage reduciton from PL.

But you would't be able to use a TSA (or another skill) on your single Minion.

Dark Dreky October 5 2008 11:35 AM EDT

Damn that damage reduction... damn it...

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] October 5 2008 11:35 AM EDT

"I already did -- you'll do better leveling up a "real" tat."

Or buying one in the end Jon. Or just not bother using one.

QBsutekh137 October 5 2008 11:37 AM EDT

Hm, no TSA, that's true...

OK, I'll mull this over. Just couldn't resist pointing out that a 1K FB is not a foil for 20HP characters at all, and I still think that is pretty lame.

Little Anthony October 5 2008 11:40 AM EDT

omg i love this !

AdminJonathan October 5 2008 11:40 AM EDT

> Or buying one in the end Jon.

Which means you'd still be using a suboptimal strat until you switched away from it. Be my guest.

> Or just not bother using one.

I think we've been over this already.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] October 5 2008 11:41 AM EDT

What I'm thinking for my Signle UC minion is to start again, drop the Tattoo for a RoE add a second miion. Stick them in front with an AoI and BoL.

Decay will now never hurt me (and just use a MGS instead of the SoC), and I'll get extra STR/PTH fromt he BoL.

Sure, CoC/FB will kill he front minion, but I lose tot hem anyway, and don't have FB/CoC teams on my fightlist anyway.

But, Decay used to be an utter killer.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] October 5 2008 11:44 AM EDT

"Which means you'd still be using a suboptimal strat until you switched away from it. Be my guest."

I've used a RBF, ToE, RoS and ToA on my single minion (with the change to the tattoo artists, picked up a few of the new ones). they didn't change my fightlist at all. I've even dropped the Tattoo for a TSA, and it didn't change my fightlist.

which Tattoo would otherwise make me immune to Decay, and add STR/PTH on top of that?

Without adding the extra NW and PR something like a ToA would.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] October 5 2008 11:45 AM EDT

Oh and obviosuly the other two behind my UC minion to suck up two rounds of MM, with no fear from SoD.

QBsutekh137 October 5 2008 11:56 AM EDT

Indeed, why would it be sub-optimal, especially if you have an uber-tat waiting up in the stratosphere for yourself? Tattoos don't always have to be "grown".

So, unless Jonathan is arguing that the higher targets afforded by using a real tattoo will yield challenge bonuses greater than that of existing targets plus the RoE bonus, a single minion RoE strategy would still work, and there would still be no reason not to tack on three extra (free) minions from the start to act as kill slots and work as gear-based enchanters (well, just leadership, I guess -- that's about all you could do with them, no?).

I should say that I am NOT saying this is a bad thing. This is a different thing. In essence, Jonathan has given us the "benching" ability people have talked about before, is just isn't what we had envisionsed (read: not as beneficial). That's OK, though, I think. Only on the second cup of coffee now, I'm still pretty stupid.

iBananco [Blue Army] October 5 2008 12:05 PM EDT

Why would you ever use PL to keep killslots alive?

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] October 5 2008 12:06 PM EDT

FB dispersion

Brakke Bres [Ow man] October 5 2008 12:09 PM EDT

What will be done for the ncb to come? Now its impossible to catch up.

AdminJonathan October 5 2008 12:11 PM EDT

> unless Jonathan is arguing that the higher targets afforded by using a real tattoo will yield challenge bonuses greater than that of existing targets plus the RoE bonus

4% is not a high bar to exceed.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] October 5 2008 12:13 PM EDT

Inlcuding the reduction to rewards a higher PR gives? If you hit 100% Challenge Bonus without a tattoo, what's the downside?

iBananco [Blue Army] October 5 2008 12:19 PM EDT

"FB dispersion"
So you're going to use PL and absorb 92.5% of the damage on the useful minion at the cost of training PL?

QBsutekh137 October 5 2008 12:24 PM EDT

BSL, unless we are disagreeing on the definition of "killslot" (I see your point there), keeping them alive is exactly the way to win, isn't it? You know, stay alive longer than your opponent?

I agree, keeping a kill-slot alive makes it, by definition, cease to be a classic kill-slot, but there is still no reason not to keep it alive (especially when you don't need to invest any MPR on them). King of Pain is still a good example of using PL to keep low-hp minions alive so they can invest their MPR elsewhere. I can pump 7-8 battles into him before I can even kill the training minion... That's with a massive MM from the back.

That's what I'm referring to, anyway. I don't understand why you WOULDN'T want to keep the kill slots alive, especially if you can still dole out enough passive/RoBF damage to win (like KoP can). He isn't "wasting" his skill slot, because with things like the RoBF in play, one doesn't NEED another skill any more.

QBsutekh137 October 5 2008 12:25 PM EDT

"training minion" should read "trailing minion" above.

Little Anthony October 5 2008 12:36 PM EDT

this seem you got your wish and make MM totally crap.
main minion and 3 back kill slot = poor MM.

Sickone October 5 2008 1:17 PM EDT

You MIGHT want to reconsider recalculating the percentage bonus for N*B XP, by the way.
All BA used up, all purchaseable BA purchased, always 100% Challenge Bonus, always 15% clan bonus and only fighting clan characters - those are NOT feasable assumptions on the calibration for reaching 95% of top MPR.
It was barely feasable before while also assuming RoE use and minion purchases later on, now it certainly isn't even remotely feasable.

three4thsforsaken October 5 2008 1:17 PM EDT

At first thought this would make single minions useless.

But the real question is that allowing a single minion strat with kill slots be as effective as growing a single minion with a tattoo in terms of challenge bonus? On one hand a tattoo gives great bonuses. On another hand, having a few kill slots with a good hundred k hp will give maybe a gigantic mage the edge it needs that will maintain a good 100% challenge bonus when it is needed.

I love how this is really the best option for vets with old tattoos though. NUBs can't really use this without major USD use.

3D October 5 2008 1:31 PM EDT

How can NCB's catch up to the top now?

Little Anthony October 5 2008 1:37 PM EDT

catching up to me is obviously a pointless race :P
getting rid of ROE is all i have ever wished for. Well, at least you now can have cheaper solution and does not need 150mil to hire minions.

Brakke Bres [Ow man] October 5 2008 1:58 PM EDT

Yeah but since so many NCBs already had the RoE bonus, how are the new NCBs ever want to grow at the same rate?

And why doesn't the spell checker know NCB???

Sickone October 5 2008 2:00 PM EDT

Meh, at least give an XP bonus proportional to maximum CB penalty :)

People in 6/20 would get no XP bonus, 7/20 would get 25% of the max XP bonus, 8/20 gets 50% of the max XP bonus, 9/20 gets 75% and 10/20 gets the full RoE XP bonus.
As for how high the max XP bonus should be... either the old 20%, but better still a 40% bonus.

Or even better... XP bonus = 40% * Your_MPR / Top_MPR

All of that, of course, on top of the existing change where all XP gets channeled into a single minion.

three4thsforsaken October 5 2008 2:01 PM EDT

I would prefer if it wasn't possible for N*Bs to reach top MPR... how would it benefit the game if N*Bs keep bumping up the top MPR spot? We want to be fairly stable.

3D October 5 2008 2:10 PM EDT

Well if I had 0% chance to reach the top with an NCB, I'd have no motive to even make one. That is just me.

Sickone October 5 2008 2:10 PM EDT

With a bonus of form YourMPR*MaxBonus/TopMPR that gets lower the closer you get to the top, overtaking the #1 spot (or even getting close, actually) gets really nasty *REGARDLESS* of how big the MaxBonus is...
...the heaviest influence would be felt when you're really small, and the influence quickly fades away.

Hey, look at your char, guys... you didn't use a RoE, you burned almost 800 BA per day on average (which means you got more BA use in total as you could have normally gotten without any sleep at all and full BA purchase as a single account char), and you won't even get to 3.5 mil MPR.
And LA is sitting at over 4.1 mil MPR chuckling :P

Meanwhile, a normal NCB (you know, a 500-BA-a-day average or thereabouts) will even have trouble getting out of 7/20.
Which I think it really, really sucks.

Tylan October 5 2008 2:16 PM EDT

Flame all you want, but I see it as a sad, sad day :(

three4thsforsaken October 5 2008 2:36 PM EDT

well the alternative isn't that great either. If N*B bonuses and 6 BA regen rates are based on top MPR, if people kept overtaking it would make non bonus chars a hopeless mess. What we want is a N*B that can bring people really close to top MPR, but not pass. Looking at Solare's character, I think we're in a good place. He could probably overtake if he hired again, but the point is that he won't. He "could" but it's not practical.

3D October 5 2008 2:44 PM EDT

But Solare used an RoE for his whole NUB run.

three4thsforsaken October 5 2008 2:44 PM EDT

also worth noting is that LA's data is skewed because of his RoE. In the future, when the 6 months NCBs draw to a close I think things will look much better.

Solare October 5 2008 3:06 PM EDT

I used a RoE for about 3/4th's of my run. I didn't have it at the beginning and I didn't use it for the last week. But I do agree that w/o it I would not be where I am today.

three4thsforsaken October 5 2008 3:08 PM EDT

that's true forgot about that.

Well, with the new score system people will not hit a "dead zone" as much. I think growth will be much better.

Little Anthony October 5 2008 3:42 PM EDT

"with the new score system people will not hit a "dead zone" as much."

Dead zone was able to solve with hiring minion before. Now, if you hire all 4 up front, the Mpr jump is gone (meaning deadzone would be longer not shorter). Plus, remember this : when you hire minion extra exp is added also. (i paid 50mil for 14 mil exp or so for 4th minion)
if you hire 4 up front, chances are you 'd be stuck with that single strategy w/ 3 kill slot forever.

Sickone October 5 2008 4:05 PM EDT

All we can hope now is that the next thread in here by Jon will be something about a revamp to the entire N*B system, maybe even *crosses fingers* a rolling XP bonus system to replace it altogether ?

smallpau1 - Go Blues [Lower My Fees] October 5 2008 4:08 PM EDT

RoE seriously pointless now? Why use it? Using one minion, no RoE, gains same exp as he would without it. 2-4 minion, gains as much exp as 1 minion, and it really only gains levels as a 1 minion would since the others get nothing. As i see it, it wasn't broken, why was it broken to be fixed in the future?

smallpau1 - Go Blues [Lower My Fees] October 5 2008 4:09 PM EDT

"no RoE" = RoE

Cube October 5 2008 4:14 PM EDT

XP concentration is vital to many strategies

Sickone October 5 2008 4:17 PM EDT

Heh... NEXT changelog thread :
... "RoE changed to AMULET of Enlightenment" ;)

Wizard'sFirstRule October 5 2008 4:20 PM EDT

smallpau, if no RoE = RoE, then no cake = cake. Then there is no cake refers to there is cake. but cake is a lie, so it is all a lie?

Wizard'sFirstRule October 5 2008 4:21 PM EDT

by the way, I am not liking the way Jon just folds to the loudest voice in the forums.

TheHatchetman October 5 2008 4:31 PM EDT

I've always thought giving those at the bottom a chance to take even top 10 MPR was silly, and unfair to those that made it the hard way.

CB is not a game of weeks, or even months... The RoE the way it is now gives those at/near the top a chance to make changes (over time) to their team that is now just a larger scale of exactly what their team was a year ago, while not having to worry about a handful of teams shooting past their MPR on a regular basis pushing them further and further back...

I'm all for bonuses that make things fun for everyone... But it's about time that those that have earned their spots by playing twice as long have *some* advantage... no?

Wizard'sFirstRule October 5 2008 4:43 PM EDT

I would much rather give NUB users a "head start" than a fixed bonus. Give them a 500k minion, or 1m minion (or a choice of number of minions). That put all new users on the same starting mark, and doesn't have the "stupidity" penalty on some but not all new players. (or at least doesn't hurt as bad)

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] October 5 2008 6:54 PM EDT

roe are leveling again

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] October 5 2008 6:56 PM EDT

Here's to hoping they stay that way!

AdminJonathan October 5 2008 7:07 PM EDT


AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] October 5 2008 9:17 PM EDT

Why not let them level?

It would make then a viable option to grow a team, the added PR would act as a balance.

smallpau1 - Go Blues [Lower My Fees] October 5 2008 9:25 PM EDT

QBnovice 9:17 PM EDT
Why not let them level?

It would make then a viable option to grow a team, the added PR would act as a balance.

Good idea, higher their level, the more back to normal they get, =)

3D October 5 2008 9:50 PM EDT

by the way, I am not liking the way Jon just folds to the loudest voice in the forums.

Jonathan doesn't play the game himself, so I would imagine it would be hard for him to see what is going well or what is not going well in the game.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] October 5 2008 9:52 PM EDT

"by the way, I am not liking the way Jon just folds to the loudest voice in the forums."

i sense a logic flaw disturbance in the force. ; )

3D October 5 2008 9:58 PM EDT

dude- if you were talking about me, I was quoting someone.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] October 5 2008 10:01 PM EDT

quotation marks for the win!

whoever said it, it is still a logic flaw:

Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc (After the fact, therefore because of it) - supposing that because circumstance B follows circumstance A, it must therefore have been caused by it.

3D October 5 2008 10:03 PM EDT

Ehh, you lost me. Looks like you're making fun of my simple mind, so keep going, I get it a lot <3

Windwalker October 5 2008 10:09 PM EDT

I don't know Dude,it doesn't have to be logical to be true. I can only go off what I have seen. Many of the changes in the past year have gone the way of the biggest group of belly achers.Coincidence I guess.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] October 5 2008 10:12 PM EDT

not at all, i was simply trying to suggest that in the future you use quotation marks to make people aware of the fact that you are quoting someone.

the rest was for the original poster of your quote, whoever that might be and was simply pointing out the logic flaw they are guilty of. simply stated it is that you cannot assume one thing caused another just because of the fact that one followed another.

the changelog entry i read has no statement as to why jon changed it, therefore any assumptions we make are just that.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] October 5 2008 10:16 PM EDT

windwalker, i can only go off of what i have seen in my almost six years in game.

one important consideration though is if the people are complaining due to a true imbalance, then is jon correcting imbalances or is he caving in to mob dynamics? it is all truly perspective and we are all left with basing things off of our own personal experiences.

to say though that jon gave into forum pressure is inaccurate as we do not know what anyone elses motivation is unless they state it, and that was my only point. anything else is just is this!

3D October 5 2008 11:34 PM EDT

So the only way to get an EXP bonus is to spend USD...

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] October 5 2008 11:52 PM EDT

clans get a bonus. challenge bonus exists pre 6/20.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] October 5 2008 11:54 PM EDT

you can also run an ncb and not spend usd and get a bonus.

3D October 6 2008 12:07 AM EDT

I meant from RoE. Sorry >.<

QBsutekh137 October 6 2008 12:31 AM EDT

Who's the loudest voice in the forums?

Lots of things happen around here -- sometimes due to silence, sometimes due to volume, sometimes due to example, and sometimes for no reason whatsoever in ways we couldn't have possibly imagined...

About the only thing that doesn't get anything done is lamenting how things get done. That's pretty much by definition. And that's also fine, I suppose, I just don't really see the point of it...

I mean, was anyone _really_ depending on the RoE as some sort of ultra-powered strategy device? Baffling. I used one so long ago (before all the N*B increases) then spent real money on hiring minions, and then basically haven't missed a BA since (my bonus ended a LONG time ago, incidentally).

And here's where I am. Nothing to really be reckoned with, and my tattoo has actually lost a place or two on the rankings.

So, color me not getting it.

Wizard'sFirstRule October 6 2008 1:30 AM EDT

dudemus, you were criticising my logic!! and the sad thing is, you were right (except if you haven't bothered to check up my original thread: that's a strawman fallacy. :P back at you)

I probably should try a little harder to prove that there is a correlation if there is one. :P

3D October 6 2008 1:39 AM EDT

Back to the subject -
More QQ from me.

I started the NCB with an RoE, figuring I wouldn't have to replace it for a long time. My strategy actually allows my use of an RoE even after the NCB expires. But with this change, I will need a 'real' tattoo, which is unattainable at this point because my max tattoo is 2 mil. God knows how much money that is going to cost me, even with a tattoo at half of my MTL.

Yeah, its changemonth, things change. But I felt it was an important point to put out there.

QBJohnnywas October 6 2008 3:36 AM EDT

102 replies for this...I see I'm not alone in wondering why and not really getting it.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] October 6 2008 10:24 AM EDT

hehe, not really a strawman fallacy in my opinion. strawman is when you create a weaker form of the opponents argument and then attack the weaker argument.

there was no need to create a weaker form of your argument, that task was already accomplished and i was merely pointing that out. ; 0

Dark Dreky October 6 2008 10:28 AM EDT

Am I the only one who likes this change?

Tattoos are meant to be used! The RoE wasn't a real tattoo. It was an MPR generator!

Plus, you can still name it and get more XP out of it. So, go get your namings!

Wizard'sFirstRule October 6 2008 8:21 PM EDT

I think targeting a weaker form of an argument is also a strawman fallacy - its not that case here, but if someone mis-intrepreted my argument and you just target that weaker form, I am sure that is still a strawman fallacy. :P

I love arguing about arguments. :P

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] October 6 2008 9:25 PM EDT

Lets get back to the point... the RoE should level!

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] October 6 2008 10:20 PM EDT

maybe at a reduced rate, like Lesser tat rate... so that you don't get to both use Roe to compile all Exp onto one minion then tat artist it at the end of your Ncb run into a massive tat.

I feel you get one or the other choice not both... so a reduced level rate would actually be a little nicer to everyone that relied on a Roe

Usul [CHOAM] October 6 2008 10:41 PM EDT

Given what it is now. Who would pay $11 for a new ROE ? Unless he/she's utterly dumb or a Jon fanatic of course.

I suggest giving it some bonus, maybe just 10% additional exp on top of the new feature it has BEFORE 6/20. And it will NOT stack with NCB / NUB. So at least it has some usage after NCB / NUB if someone wants to sacrifice the usage of a tattoo and at least reach 6/20.

The rolling bonus suggestion from some other people can also be considered though :P

Sickone October 6 2008 11:03 PM EDT

I posted this somewhere else where there was a talk about the RoE, but I meant to post it in here... so, sorry for the almost-double-post...

ANOTHER possible revamp of the RoE, one that would actualy bring it in line with the rest of the tattoos !
First off, allow the RoE to GROW from now on (no more "fixed level 20" from now on - so it also adds PR).

Second, either keep the new "all XP goes on the minion that wears it" or remove this particular feature altogether (up to debate).

FINALLY, make it ADD to all raw stats of the minion wearning it.
What it adds depends on the already trained stats on the minion (added points keep the same ratio as trained points).

As for how much it adds in total ?
I'd say, 75% of rune level is rather fair.
Kind of like a slightly better rune of solitude, but without the DM protection, and affecting ALL stats on the wearer.
It's even weaker than a ToA (which adds 83% of rune level PLUS a load of NW), so you might even want to grant more than 75% of rune level.

In effect, you get almost the same effect as the old 20% bonus in terms of "virtual total levels" added, but you don't gain the base reward increase benefits of being a higher MPR, however you DO "gain" the PR (and reward) penalties of wearing a tattoo.

It's versatile (especially on, say, a character that just added a new minion, he can move the RoE there to boost XP gains on that new minion AND also benefit from the new minion a lot by changing its designation).
Heck, strategy-wise, it would be an awesome tool, since you don't just gain levels blindly, you can simply repurpose minions however you see fit - even radically change your strategy just by moving it around.

Honestly, the current form is just pathetic.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] October 7 2008 3:35 AM EDT

"Lets get back to the point... the RoE should level"

/thirded ;)

On that track, how little PR do large MGS / Boots of Fortitude / Amulets add to minions with Zero XP?

A zero XP minion with an AoI, BoF and MGS (and more behind with at least MGS) is looking more and more attractive. Add a +50 MGS for nominal PR increase. WooT!

QBJohnnywas October 7 2008 3:50 AM EDT

Having had a couple of days to think on this - and given that people weren't happy about LA running ahead with MPR because of the 'old' RoE I really can't see why people are upset about this - apart from maybe those single minion chars that used one. The new way still allows you to boost a minion when you feel it's too small. It's just never going to let somebody jump ahead in the same way again.

I think Jon's other options would have punished higher MPRs unduly. This way at least it's fair across the board.

Sacredpeanut October 7 2008 4:26 AM EDT

"On that track, how little PR do large MGS / Boots of Fortitude / Amulets add to minions with Zero XP?"

The MgS and leadership items like the BoF should really be subject to encumbrance like everything else.

Colonel Custard [The Knighthood] October 7 2008 7:30 AM EDT

I'm with Sickone again.

Cube October 7 2008 7:51 AM EDT

I like Sickone's idea; it's pretty solid.

Colonel Custard [The Knighthood] October 7 2008 8:01 AM EDT

Sickone's idea is pretty solid. He tends to do that. One thing, though:

I think the RoE should retain its XP distribution abilities, as that's been its unique property and it's useful and unique in the game.

In light of this secondary (or primary?) ability, I think any ToA-like virtual stat gain should be considerably smaller than the ToA's 83%, especially because it lets you pick which stats it boosts. Imagine having a tattoo freely splitting its level between your HP and SG, and bringing all your character's experience onto that minion. Of course, you wouldn't be able to wear TSA and CoI then for the further boost, but the ability to focus an entire tattoo's boost on the two most powerful stats in the game is crazy.

I submit maybe 64% of Rune level? Depending on whether it levels normally or lesserly. If it levels lesserly, maybe 75% is fine.

Wizard'sFirstRule October 7 2008 8:05 AM EDT

but then does it split among your skill evenly? or does it split based on how much XP you have on it? or does it split arbitarily like 15% HP, 20% STR, 15% EO etc.

QBJohnnywas October 7 2008 8:15 AM EDT

Interesting, but (sorry LA but you're the most famous RoE user..) with a levelling tattoo...artist the biggest tattoo in the game to a proposed RoE, give it to LA. His mage gets an extra 3 million HP and 3 million added to the SG level. You've basically invented the magic ToA. Yes tanks can use it, but the ToA is that much better so they probably won't.

Yeah, I can see that going down well...

QBJohnnywas October 7 2008 8:22 AM EDT

Even me running a familiar based team could use it. Big enough tattoo, train my junction/as minion to HP and SG - the SG doesn't need to be massively trained if I've only two stats. Using the biggest tattoo and a base SG I'd still end up with a 3 million SG and 6 or 7 million HP on a mage.

See what your idea doesn't really take into consideration is that you don't need a lot of stats on a team to run a succesful strat. So this would super boost any minion with only one or two stats trained.

Colonel Custard [The Knighthood] October 7 2008 9:52 AM EDT

"maybe at a reduced rate, like Lesser tat rate... so that you don't get to both use Roe to compile all Exp onto one minion then tat artist it at the end of your Ncb run into a massive tat."

The RoE will act a lesser tat in terms of how quickly it levels. It's also only inkable from lessers. How's that for an idea? LA could get himself the biggest lesser tat in the game, ink it to a RoE, and get a massive 50k boost to SG and HP!

QBJohnnywas October 7 2008 10:07 AM EDT

That's more like it. Although that makes it more useless than it is.


3D October 7 2008 10:10 AM EDT

Give us moneys and delete RoE like with CoBF!
Then make rolling bonus!

Best ideas out there imo!
At least the latter is.

Sickone October 7 2008 10:18 AM EDT

A lesser tattoo grows at half the rate (i.e. rune level is 33% of total levels gained on char).
Even the RoS grants 40% (ok, to ED only), but also grants DM imunity.
If you're going to make RoE only inkable from lesser tats, you need it to add at least the full tattoo levels, if not over 100% of rune level, or else it's a pointless change.

Nah, leaving it be a regular tattoo is best, and just leave it at, say, 60% (or maybe even 66%) of rune level.
So a 8 mil RoE on a minion that has equal HP/SG would grant an additional 2.4-2.66 mil HP and 2.4-2.66 mil SG.
Now, LA//FTW has, what, I don't know, maybe 7 mil SG on top of his 5 mil HP ?
Granted, two and a half mil extra does sound much, but then again his stats are quite impressive already.
HOWEVER, even if he does that, his PR will skyrocket, and he's not gaining any levels at all.
Meanwhile, a tank can just use a 8 mil ToA and get 4 mil ST, 2.64 mil DX and a metric ton of additional weapon PTH NW without raising his PR more than the tattoo already has (would he do that on a minion with those stats obtained with an "old fashioned" RoE, or even the new RoE focusing it all on a single minion with 4 killslots, while using a different tattoo on a different minion and an additional weapon plus corresponding to that NW, his PR would be MUCH higher).

Ungh wall of text. Sorry.

Sickone October 7 2008 10:31 AM EDT

Nah it doesn't make it more useless... just underpowered.
RIGHT NOW it's next to useless.
Keeping the current functionality AND adding the "gives some raw levels in exchange for PR increase" (no matter how much) is a clear improvement.
Now, the only issue is just how much of a percentage those added levels should be, and wether it needs to be a lesser or greater tattoo.

No matter what you do, it needs to add AT LEAST a 40%, preferably more raw stats than the rune has levels, or else it's inferior to just about any tattoo in play right now... and, no offense, but it's a supporter item. It's a damned shame, if you ask me.

Now, if you make it a greater//normal tattoo, then you have the POSSIBILITY of somebody reinking one of the huge (non-ToA) tattoos to a RoE, and supercharging some insane strategy based on it if you set the percentage too high (apparently, 80+% would be out of the question in this scenario).
However, if you make it a LESSER tattoo, which grows at only 1/3 of levels, you are pretty much FORCED to make it at least 80%, if not closer to 100% (equivalent of 40%/50% for regular)... which, if you consider a SINGLE NCB run, yeah, it figures... however, it's overpowered once somebody decides to use it on MULTIPLE NCB runs, eventually insane tattoo levels (granted, it will take a long while, still, it's possible).

So, no, I'd really like it to be from a regular tattoo, and let's just settle for, say, 40% of levels added ?
That's just about on par with the RoS, no DM protection, but you can pick any stats whatsoever.

Cube October 7 2008 10:40 AM EDT

I wouldn't say the current RoE is useless, but it definitely won't get much use.

Sickone's idea would basically end up making the RoE give the same number of levels, but also add to your PR. If the percentage was 60%, it would add the same number of levels as using the old RoE, but it would also add to PR to compensate. Sounds like a fair trade off to me. If you want nerf it to 50% or w/e, but there has to be some percentage that's fair.

three4thsforsaken October 7 2008 12:15 PM EDT

to say the RoE could use to ability to add stats is one thing. To say it's a NECESSITY, is quite another.

I think the ability to add stats to a minion is way to overpowered. If RoE already makes all exp concentrated to one minion, why would we want to further boost it's stats? I can only see completely gigantic minions with RoEs floating around. With enchanters. It'll blow most teams out of the water.

Oh yeah, no tattoo should ever add to DD, that's too powerful, that's why we have familiars instead of a ToA for DD. Cause they are squishy.

I do think the RoE concept is still very useful. The ability to concentrate exp is the most sought out ability in the game. That's why people hire late and are willing to pay millions and millions to do so. Give it a chance, it's been like what 2 days? Since the beginning RoE has always been a trade off.

Sickone October 7 2008 12:18 PM EDT

How about no concentration and 50% of level added then ? :)
This will effectively double in size whatever minion the RoE is on on a 4-minion "from the start" team.

Little Anthony October 7 2008 12:21 PM EDT

"Now, LA//FTW has, what, I don't know, maybe 7 mil SG on top of his 5 mil HP ? "

almost 10mil sg :)

three4thsforsaken October 7 2008 12:22 PM EDT

that wouldn't be broken, but would kinda be a step backward.

More people would benefit from a chance of exp concentration than a boost in stats. Cause one can use an RoE to concentrate exp then switch to a real tattoo. Otherwise, might as well just use a better tattoo.

Little Anthony October 7 2008 12:35 PM EDT

to be honest i didn't like the change at first but seeing how i add 100k HP in 1 day on 1 minion. I am not complaining. Liking it now.

Little Anthony October 7 2008 12:36 PM EDT

i meant 50k

Cube October 7 2008 1:42 PM EDT

You wouldn't have it do both things at once 3/4ths.

If it was say 33% of level on a 6 mil tat that'd be 2 mil levels or 666k more HP for LA and 1.333 mil more SG, taking up his tat slot and adding to his PR.

If 60% is not a fair number for this tat, there has to be some number that is.

Colonel Custard [The Knighthood] October 7 2008 2:00 PM EDT

I agree with 3/4 that it would be a step backwards to take away the EXP concentration aspect. The RoE is the only item in the game that can do something like that, and the only current solution to the single-minion NCB late-hiring costs.

I think making it level like a lesser is an effective and legitimate way to avoid someone re-inking an uber-tat and making it op. Sure, have it grants stats at 100% of its level. Sure, it's possible that someone will get one to level 8mil if they run NCB after NCB to power level it... but it would take like 4 years. Remember, because of MTL, every time you run through it, it would take you longer just to get to the point where you're even adding experience to the tat at all. Before, this could be remedied by using RoE until your MTL equaled the level of the tat you want to level, but obviously this is no longer possible.

I'm perfectly fine with someone gaining 8mil stats in free boosts if they've spent 6 years of their life and 100 million BA in order to achieve it. One of the cool things about tattoos is that it's transferable, and doesn't have to die like so many disposable teams. If you think about it, anyway, a ToA at ~9.6mil would give about 8 mil in boosted stats. It's a reward for work done.

However, I think it should level more slowly because of its unique qualities. It's a customizable ToA. That's like if you made a Twin Familiar, that gains stats and levels the same as any other familiar, but instead imitates your team's damage dealer with 125% of level in stats.

Of course, I've seen no indication that Jon likes this idea at all. So put "hypothetically" in front of everything I've said relating to making it a legit tattoo.

Colonel Custard [The Knighthood] October 9 2008 2:08 PM EDT

Am I a thread-killer, or what? It seems like every time I enter in on a good discussion, I make the last post.

Come on!

AdminQBVerifex October 9 2008 2:35 PM EDT

Would it not be more appropriate if the RoE was an Amulet that each minion could wear?

3D October 9 2008 4:48 PM EDT

Wouldn't that make multi-minion teams have more advantage over singles?

three4thsforsaken October 9 2008 8:17 PM EDT

if each amulet gave each minion all the exp of the team, it wouldn't make sense for other minions to wear it. 400% exp anyone?

Colonel Custard [The Knighthood] October 9 2008 10:03 PM EDT

I think he's suggesting implementing something like 2 minions wearing Amulets of Enlightenment would each receive 50% of a teams XP, even on 3 or 4 minion teams.

OR they could be upgradeable, and they distribute XP based on relative enchantment level (so one could wear a +4 and one could wear a +6 for a 40/60 split).

Relic October 9 2008 10:04 PM EDT

Well, as it stands now the RoE is pretty much useless. So, hopefully something changes with it.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] October 9 2008 10:09 PM EDT

*cough* let it level *cough*

Eliteofdelete [Battle Royale] October 9 2008 10:43 PM EDT

I like it how it is and hope if it doesn't level. If it does then I wouldn't want it to increase PR.

Josh [Cult of the Valaraukar] October 10 2008 1:06 AM EDT

The RoE is not useless. It's still useful for someone who wanted to run a single minion team while using it. Or someone who comes up with a new strategy that calls for certain minions having more exp over the others. WHAT, NEW STRATEGIES?!?!?!

And for the record, unless this changed when I stopped playing, when the time comes that a single minion character owner would have normally bought a minion, can't they fire the XP-less minion and purchase a new one with exp?

I'm seeing a tattoo that can be used to create new strategies in the game. Yes, a lot of people would rather it be a pure XP bonus, but its not, so either use it or don't. The RoE should not be an item that is so good for leveling that you can't live without it. It should just be another strategic choice.

Also, making suggestions of a new way for the tattoo to work seems silly. Then again they are just suggestions and you're entitled to make them. Anyway, my point is, if your change were to be made, some unhappy people would become happy, others would stay unhappy, and some happy people would mostly likely become unhappy. Basically, not everyone is ever going to be happy with a change. And if for some reason a change is ever made where everyone is happy, come talk to me, I'll be sure to be the only unhappy person.

I like this change.

Cube October 10 2008 1:09 AM EDT

IMO as an Amulet it'd be overpowered. XP concentration is very valuable. C'mon LA's still using it.

Josh [Cult of the Valaraukar] October 10 2008 1:10 AM EDT

Double Post.

I forgot to add, if you cycle the RoE through all the minions on a multiple minion team you'll still get the XP bonus while for the most part your characters will have received the same XP. If you notice they are a little off and want them closer together, just change which minion has the RoE until you're happy.

You could for instance change which minion has the RoE each time you do your 160, or every 100 ba, or whatever cycle you pick for yourself.

Josh [Cult of the Valaraukar] October 10 2008 1:11 AM EDT

Triple post, because I like being like Sutekh.

Obviously, the XP bonus is only if it is named, but you get my point.

three4thsforsaken October 10 2008 2:35 AM EDT

The exp concentration is definitely worth the penalties of exp concentration. Considering the money you save from hiring, you could just insta up a tat.
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