Not enough risk or reward in CB (in General)

AdminQBVerifex [Serenity In Chaos] October 7 2008 7:28 PM EDT

Those are the things that drive me to play, is having risk and having reward. I don't know where this risk or reward is in CB. There's no significant reward from anything I do in CB short of fighting a couple hundred times for money. And short of retraining a whole bunch till all my XP is gone, I can't really risk a whole lot on my character either.

The tourney is a fun thing, but I can't compete seriously unless I spend lots of time on it, which I don't usually have, so that rules that out. Does anyone else think these are issues that should be addressed in the game, or does anyone simply like the way things are?

3D October 7 2008 7:30 PM EDT

The only other risk I could think of is camping, which is gone. So I have no clue. Sorry, just basking in the sorrow.

BadFish October 7 2008 7:31 PM EDT

I agree with you, fex. Mostly, to me it feels like it takes such a long time to get any significant amount of achievement out of CB. Just a few minutes ago I saw a post where someone suggested to a new player he do a run of NCB's to level different types of tattoos. Yes, this is a good idea... but it would take what, 5 years to do an NCB run for each tat? Everything is so slow and steady... it's annoying.

3D October 7 2008 7:32 PM EDT

I think a lot of people prefer consistency though. But I miss the thrill of finding a rare item in the armor/weapons store.

BadFish October 7 2008 7:35 PM EDT

Absolutely. Camping was insanely unfair but I've never had a bigger rush playing CB than when I see something rare in the store. Even if I didn't get the item I saw I always was exhilarated. We need more moments like that in CB.

TheHatchetman October 7 2008 7:40 PM EDT

"it takes such a long time to get any significant amount of achievement out of CB."

If it was fast and easy, what's the achievement?

You want risk and reward? Play the CB stock market... Buy items (or as we call them in the financial world "shares"), especially during changemonth. You need to accumulate some wealth before you're able to have high levels of risk and reward by buying many "shares" but considering how much the CB marketplace shifts around during changemonths, you could turn your cash into a buncha cheap items that become great items and make a nice profit.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] October 7 2008 7:41 PM EDT

electrical shocks on failed botchecks for the win!

BadFish October 7 2008 7:41 PM EDT

It's not that I want it to be fast and easy... But I wouldn't mind it being fast and hard.

That should be read in a pg way, it just sounds weird if you say it a certain way.

SNK3R October 7 2008 7:43 PM EDT

Before making this thread and thinking there isn't enough risk or reward, what were the risks and rewards you saw in CB? The fighting a couple hundred times for money has been around for a while now, since forging is, for the most part, in a coma and camping has been exterminated. What risk or reward did you see in CB before?

In chat, you said that you wanted to be excited about something, like chat or accumulating lots of money:

1) Chat still exists. Nothing but the absolutely current, horrific interface has changed (unless you count the number of users not talking). But, really, you have to go back quite a ways in order to say chat isn't exciting because it's been roughly the way it has for a while, which means you've had these feelings for quite some time.

2) Destrinator just said in chat about the second point of accumulating money: "<Destrinator> fex was saying how much money he has vs nothing to spend it on and the idea came to me"

Now, doesn't this contradict your statement of accumulating lots of money? You just said you wanted to accumulate money, yet you also just said you have so much money but nothing to spend it on: contradiction.

As far as risk goes, what about putting some of that (not-so-hard)-earned (and accumulated) money into those user-made contests for tickets? Buy a few tickets, hope to win the jackpot, see what happens. It's a risk; there's a possible reward.

But, really, the most baffling thing about your post to me (and I'll repeat myself for the third time): What did you see in CB before you made this thread or realized there is "not enough risk or reward"? Once you can answer that, we can get down to finding some solutions.

lostling October 7 2008 7:46 PM EDT

i find its not that much about risk... its more about incentive to stay on....

the 1st thing i thought when i saw risk and reward was gambling... since jon doesnt like it out it goes....

how about trophies.... like on kongregate and KOL for completing stuff... for doign weird stuff... fex you could use your scripting skills to make it :)

trophies like.... ( name of trophies in brackets )
filling up your inventory with daggers ( flight of daggers )
getting a full set of leathers and a whip ( naughty naughty )
selling more then 10 tattoos to the store ( tattoo killer )

theres more :)

lostling October 7 2008 8:03 PM EDT

separate them into 3 types

permanent trophies...
you just have to do something to obtain them

fluid trophies...
you have to do something and keep doing it to maintain them

legendary trophies...
only 1 trophy is available... only 1 person can get it

and to make it more memorable... a history list of all the trophies you ever got

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] October 7 2008 8:06 PM EDT

badges? we don't need no stinking badges! ; )

LittleLauren October 7 2008 8:26 PM EDT

Ahahha, badges+Points to go with them!

BootyGod October 7 2008 8:39 PM EDT

Kind of the same thing, no?

AdminQBVerifex [Serenity In Chaos] October 7 2008 11:23 PM EDT

I dunno, you had quite a post there, and I'm not sure if that is all exactly what I'm saying.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] October 8 2008 4:14 AM EDT

I know what you're talking about Fexy. It's the 'Death' in computer games, or failing a mission, or losing a territory.

Most games have some element of risk. But not all (Like Soul Reaver not having a penalty for death).

And bar getting reset for failing a bot check, I don't think CB has really ever had any risk (And now that risk is an hours lockout for failing a bot check).

The only things I can think of to add, I'm sure I'd not want in CB. something like the ever mentioned 'thief' skill so opponents can steal your items (or maybe they degrade and break over time fighting so you constantly have to BS them just to keep them where they are), or everytime you lose a fight, you lose XP.

As for rewards, CB is so big now (in terms of items and character sizes) you really have to set your own goals. Like getting the largest Decay. ;)

Phrede October 8 2008 4:53 AM EDT

I dont know about risk and reward but I now spend 30 - 45 mins on average per day on CB when I used to spend 3 hours or so (and that isnt necessarily chat - I've never been that big with chat).

What has changed - I am not sure - maybe CB maybe my attitude towards it.

I love the idea of Cups/badges for achievements it will give another challenge to this game.

Bull3t F4c3 October 8 2008 5:19 AM EDT

bring back camping?

Ancient Anubis October 8 2008 5:21 AM EDT

ok i've spent a lot of time and money on this but i think where getting to a point of game redesign a reset of sorts where everyone loses there gear maybe current exp and starts again items become rare again not just if u have enough us$ to buy the.

Quests where u can earn a rare item for beating a particular computer character.

The spells are ok and the enchantments fine maybe one or two new ones based more on chnace than a fixed rate would be nice.

A redesign of the exp system maybe leave so u can allocate your points but shrink the numbers ( I like bringing this one up :)) for every 100k exp u get one point to allocate or something to bringing these stat numbers down.

Have rewards that get displayed on your profile page i don't c why not gives people points of achievement.

How bout a simple moving bar at the top of the sidebar that scrolls through the top 3 winning streaks currently or the top 3 alliances for score.

Make armour more expensive to upgrade so each point is more hard earnt and how bout a basic clan bank would be nice.

Come up with upgrades for things like the forge first upgrade must earn 1 mil to open a forge, win 10k battles to increase forge effieciency from 2% to %5, forge 10mil nw to upgrade forge to 10% effiency.

Make alliance a 6 character min and make trading between alliance members more free.

Economic alliances increase max forging effiency between 1 and 10% for each clan member for top 20 economic clans based on daily forging nw figures.

Well that's all for now

Wizard'sFirstRule October 8 2008 7:49 AM EDT

I am all for shrinking the numbers, 100k to 1 seems about right.

Josh [Cult of the Valaraukar] October 8 2008 11:43 AM EDT

60% rescale would fix it all if you ask me.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] October 8 2008 11:52 AM EDT

/me sends Josh to sit in the corner

Kefeck [Demonic Serenity] October 8 2008 11:52 AM EDT

There's nothing wrong with big numbers.

Kefeck [Demonic Serenity] October 8 2008 11:54 AM EDT

I agree with alot of AA's ideas like the clan bank that'd be sweet, and maybe a few more enchanter spells. That would bring a new dimension to the game. I"m not so sure I like the *oh lets reset everything and start from scratch, and make rares rare again*. I"m not so sure i like that idea. Why not just start a CB3??

Goodfish October 8 2008 1:52 PM EDT

/me votes CB3.

A rescale accomplishes nothing. Resetting everything will accomplish nothing, it will just upset a lot of players but we'll eventually wind up where we are right now again. Bringing back camping, while I agree that I enjoyed it, will just make some players skyrocket even faster (imagine if LA started camping or something equally ridiculous). Additional spells/skills/stats won't make anything better either, it'll just throw off the balance of the entire game.

And while CB3 is a lot to ask for, look at what CB2 did for CB1. It added a lot of depth to the game (tattoos!, a few new items, some major balance changes) without really upsetting the player base (since everyone had to start over anyways). CB3 could be Jon's opportunity to fix "everything" that's wrong with CB2.

I guess I'll just keep dreaming, though...

Tsabo Rashdak October 8 2008 2:00 PM EDT

If you want some form of achievement, perhaps clans can have territory, and those in the clan have to maintain the territory and expand. You could even go as far as to have specific roles for clans that are filled by players, such as defender or skirmisher. You could then brand the clans into different categories based on mpr so that a huge clan cannot attack and take land from a little clan. Perhaps new players have to go through a 'ritual' or an initiation to join a clan?

I understand what you are all saying, but as my character is smaller than some of yours, I still have an incentive, as I want to a big character that can take on anything (we all have dreams!). But quests would also be a fantastic idea.

SNK3R October 8 2008 3:18 PM EDT

"...without really upsetting the player base..." - Goodfish

Do you know how many people quit CB2 because they had to start over or hated the new system? ("Oh, God, this is Tattoo Blender now!")

You were here for all this (assuming you've been here since Jan 2005); you don't remember?

Goodfish October 8 2008 3:25 PM EDT

I would say the majority of true players stayed, and CB2 has certainly attracted more CB'ers (let's say per unit time) than CB1 ever could have.

Even the people who quit played CB2 for a little while, at least. Yes, people whined, but people have whined over Evasion, over PL, and over just about everything else under the sun.

Perhaps I'm just misinterpreting how the player base reacted, though.

SNK3R October 8 2008 3:41 PM EDT

"I would say the majority of true players stayed, and CB2 has certainly attracted more CB'ers (let's say per unit time) than CB1 ever could have."

Upsetting the player base has nothing to do with how many users it attracts to the new CB. It's how many people Jon pisses off announcing another CB, pretty much making most of your work null and void unless you sell out (which might be pointless now that the $USD:$CB ratio is low enough to almost not even be applicable).

Goodfish October 8 2008 3:52 PM EDT

The fact that CB2 "pissed people off" is hardly a valid point. CB is a game, and as such I believe it is Jon's duty to make that game as fair and balanced as possible. CB1 was neither, and CB2 is now even worse than CB1 ever was (mostly due to inflating MPRs and abundance of liquid CBD). If some people choose to spend USD on an entirely free game, then that is their choice. However, the rest of us shouldn't have to be tethered down simply because some people are morons.

Yes, I just called USD spenders morons.

I feel it would be much more lucrative for Jon to create a balanced and fair CB3 than it would be to keep a bloated CB2. And since ultimately this is Jon's cash cow (and not ours), it seems the interested of the (typical) player coincides with what would be most intelligent for Jon.

Perhaps I'm simply ahead of my time. :)

I'd also like to say that I really don't have any problems with CB2. I don't mind staying behind forever, I don't mind using an underpowered strategy, I don't mind not being able to buy BA without spending USD. The game is simply that to me- A GAME. Those people who have invested in it should know that it will always be as such, and as those of us from CB1 will remember, it's _Jon's_ game, and if you don't like it you don't have to play it. Therefore, he's allowed (and encouraged by most of us!) to make any changes he wants at any given time. Remember the bank? Remember FoD? Remember the numerous rescales? Remember IA's? Things change, and as players that's part of our job- to adapt.

Yeah, CB3 would be a huge shift, and everyone would have to start over. I don't see anything wrong with that, though.

Feel free to bombard me with tomatoes, I'm sure that's inevitable when one takes a stance like this in a community such as CB.

Brakke Bres [Ow man] October 8 2008 3:55 PM EDT

I really don't feel like restarting or like CB3, the fact that i've spent years gathering stuff, getting money and items getting a character to this point, no if any rescale or CB3 enters I don't want to play anymore.

BadFish October 8 2008 3:57 PM EDT

That's exactly what I was saying before! It takes so long to do anything in this game that people aren't willing to give up their years of hard work in order to make the changes necessary to balance the game. Which is understandable, I suppose.

Goodfish October 8 2008 4:01 PM EDT

It's very understandable. I just wish people weren't allowed to spend USD (except through Jon), because then fewer people would mind a CB3 or a global reset.

Back to the original post, though, I agree that CB has become much too "safe". I can't think of any decent ideas to promote some danger, but I would support any reasonable ones.

Quests may potentially be a good idea but it would require some work, and they'd work best if they always scaled to your level (if that's even feasible to implement). I like the idea of "challenges", or trophies, akin to X360 Achievements... but they'd have to give something _useful_ or nobody would bother completing the more difficult ones. Cash? Rares? "Points" which can be exchanged for just about anything (experience, special minion abilities, et cetera)?

I don't know... I'm just a kid.

Little Anthony October 8 2008 4:19 PM EDT

isn't jon working on facebook for cb? I can use some new challenges coming from waves of new players :P

SNK3R October 8 2008 4:34 PM EDT

"The fact that CB2 "pissed people off" is hardly a valid point."

It actually is a very serious point. Jon has said in the past (don't ask me to find it) he doesn't want to make a habit of creating a new Carnage Blender every couple of months. Pissing people off will likely reduce his player base on the next CB game, so it really is a concern. Without the user base, there isn't a CB.

Goodfish October 8 2008 4:35 PM EDT


Well I guess I'll just have to pray for a major balance change. Or overthrow Jon. ;)

TrueDevil [AAA] October 9 2008 12:54 AM EDT

you know... I'd really like to see CB to become a somewhat RPG...

killing monsters (bot, let's say characters equipped with 1 trillion nw ? but only at 3-4 mil mpr or whatever) , getting extremely rare items from those 'monsters' , it sure would be much more fun, rather than mindless hitting enter enter enter enter, wait, bot check, enter enter enter enter.

It's just a starter that doesn't require much programming IMO.

Maybe there should be quests too ? I really think that there's a need to have some extremely rare items in the game, so people get motivated to try to get it, more actively discussing what's the best way to get it and at least there's a challenge.

SNK3R October 9 2008 1:02 AM EDT

One thing that hasn't been said in this post (I think) is the BA regen rate. Because the BA regen rate has slowed down, there is a higher ability to use all of your BA, and thus no risk.

One of the better things I really enjoyed when I played CB a long time ago (which provided competition for me) was having to use all of my BA and not missing any. You won't believe how many months I went on getting sleep every 3 hours just to use all of my BA.

Having this competition to use all of one's BA really was what made CB fun because everyone didn't raise in the ranks at the same time (and almost equally, like it is now).

In my opinion, I would very much like to see the BA regen rate changed back to how it was, and not cater to people who don't want to put in the time to be #1 (may it be because of work, class, or any other reason).

DoS October 9 2008 1:04 AM EDT

^Like 10/10, 9/10, and so on?

chuck1234 October 9 2008 1:22 AM EDT

Yes, I do think AdminVerifex makes a good point; for instance, now I was pointlessly clicking "fight" and the script did the needful, and that's just a click-monkey thingie without any application of mind. It might just as well have been a bot inside my brain.

Perhaps, we could have different realms where characters can dwell whether at will or compulsorily at specific times, and in each of these realms, there can be a differential enhancement or decrement of specific skills, etc.; which will call for a more robust application, and less of the click-monkey :)

Dark Dreky October 9 2008 1:34 AM EDT

I agree with SNK. I believe the new BA rate was a "trial". I honestly feel that since the BA rate change, I have had to invest MUCH less time in CB to be competitive.

I think we need to go back to the original BA rate! It would make it much more interesting!

Wizard'sFirstRule October 9 2008 2:50 AM EDT

at this second, I feel that quests are stupid. Say you have a first "boss" of a tank and second boss is a mage, then you might as well put up a guide that says get some damage source and EC at the start, train up and farm the bot, then unlearn your EC and put them in AMF. That seems to take strategy out of the game. Also see FORS in wiki.

TrueDevil [AAA] October 9 2008 4:54 AM EDT

Yea, that is if you made the boss too easy, and about farming the bot, how about a recovery rate of once per hour ? instead of the current 30 seconds. ("bosses" only) and you can only do double tapping (two chance to kill it or it will regen back to maximum)

and how exactly is it going to be easy ? I thought I've put an example of 1 tril nw for 4 mil mpr and no PR increase, no chance u're going to beat that easily.. (obviously 1 tril is exaggerating, but try 2-3 bil nw)

so let's say you have 100 k mpr character, and you're trying to beat this boss at 50 k mpr/PR who has ridiculous amount nw equipment (let's say 20-50 mil nw), you can beat this easily ? seriously doubt it...

On other post, I agree with SNK too, I think the BA regen rate needs to be changed back to x amount per 10 minutes, and lower the reward...

Eurynome Bartleby [Bartleby's] October 9 2008 11:38 AM EDT

CB is fun and somewhat different from all the other browser games because it is 100% PVP.

Adding monsters and quests is LAME.

winner winner October 9 2008 11:50 AM EDT

I think the BA rate right now is fine. I can't hit half my BA on a school day so the BA rate right now is much better for me.

TrueDevil [AAA] October 9 2008 12:00 PM EDT

"CB is fun and somewhat different from all the other browser games because it is 100% PVP.

Adding monsters and quests is LAME."

Well, the thread is about having risk and reward, the only way to do it is monsters and quest IMO, unless you have a better suggestion ?

lostling October 9 2008 12:08 PM EDT

i wish there would be events on "holidays" and some interesting dates...

like christmas... new year... april fools day... valentine's day...

events that everyone can participate in or give aways... just alittle something to break the monotony... almost all games do it... give aways can be like creating a random item(with interesting names) that does nothing just to celebrate that date...

Goodfish October 9 2008 12:23 PM EDT

Back in 2004 I think Jon created an April Fool's Day event, which was awesome beyond belief. :)

lostling October 9 2008 12:30 PM EDT

see? this is the kind of things that people remember and love :) events....

no offense but if i described CB2 to my friends as the way it currently is.... im afraid all i can say its highly customizable and has a great community... and probably about how everyone has a chance to catch up... cant really tell them theres a great selection of weapons and armors... more then half the weapons and armors are worthless
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