So what exactly is considered non-PG and why ? (in Off-topic)

A recent public record thread sparked a couple of questions that should probably be talked about, but the proper place to discuss them is maybe not that thread, so... I just created this one instead.

This thread is NOT about the recent PG rule poll, although it is somewhat related.
This is not about wether the PG rule should remain as it is, wether it should be relaxed or eliminated or whatnot : we assume that the PG rule stays in place "as is" for the purpose of this thread.

So what is this thread about then ?
Nothing more and nothing less but a discussion of what exactly is considered an "allowed" wording and what isn't, and for those that aren't allowed, why exactly they're not allowed.

As a practical example, we have the word describing the part of the human anatomy we usually use to sit on. Apparently, the word that starts with an a and spells the same as an animal of burden or the other one that starts with a b and has a lot more meanings than just describing that part of the human anatomy are considered "non-PG", but a lot of OTHER words describing the very same part of the human anatomy are apparently considered ok.
So... my first question is... WHY ?
And my second question is... HOW EXACTLY are we supposed to judge what exactly is allowed and what isn't ?

PG = hearing it in a modern day PG movie? (I'd give a list, but I'm not risking it.)

using it in the same context, would you yell it out in church on sunday morning? i have found that this is a pretty good rule to follow for determining acceptability.

There are no words I would yell in church ;)

The problem there is, I would depending on the church... and since I don't attend church myself I can't compare. I don't believe that any word that's used as a curse today should be considered wrong to say. I think there's a situation where another word can't replace a curse. There are some situations where it IS necessary.

Amen.

"dudemus 11:32 AM EST
using it in the same context, would you yell it out in church on sunday morning? i have found that this is a pretty good rule to follow for determining acceptability. "

Perhaps that should be re-phrased: would people in a church on a Sunday find a word acceptable if you yelled it out? Regardless of whether or not you find it acceptable.

Probably not but could you give me the reason they wouldn't find it acceptable?

that is probably better. furthermore, if you lack the imagination to put yourself in that situation, or if you lack the vocabulary to choose other words, then always have some cb around to pay the fines.

the wiki explanation:

Q: What is this I hear about a PG rating on this game?

A: In an effort to make this game appealing to all ages, it is requested that language, character and minion names, and postings all contain PG language. Please note that strong uses of "God" and "Jesus Christ" are not acceptable. Also, short forms or acronymns of swearing are not allowed. Discussions involving clinical anatomic terms will not be allowed, as the context is almost always "non-PG". Profanity warnings will be issued to those breaking this rule. In extreme cases, you will be reset or banned. Pretty easy really, just keep communications clean.

This applies to non-English languages as well; if in doubt, an op may simply request users to stick to English as the default lingua franca. (You can always take it to PM or a private room if you prefer.)

Just because you heard some swearing in a PG movie, it is still not allowed here. "PG" is a simple guideline that most everyone understands. In reality, it's somewhere between G and PG.

Brendan adds:

The majority of the people playing the game regularly are adults, so it seems rather silly that the PG rule is in effect. But in another sense, I like it, it means I don't have to worry about people coming in there and bashing each other with "*expletive deleted* your mom" or the more often, "*expletive deleted* your *expletive deleted* with a *expletive deleted* and 15 *expletive deleted*'s and a side of *expletive deleted* with ranch dressing."

It just overall increases the intelligence level of the room, which is something I didn't understand when I first came here.

Churches aside (since most of us haven't been in a one in a while)...

CB's forums and chat have an atmosphere that is supposed to function like a living room. Things can sometimes get heated, but polite speech and friendly discussion are preferred. Rudeness will often get you excused from the room, and repeated rudeness will likely mean you're asked not to come back. It's really not that complicated. I realize that many people are not used to civil behavior on gaming forums and chat channels. This is a different place. You're figuratively (and at one time literally) in someones house. Be a pleasant guest and remember to wipe your feet.

I know what the PG rule is, I'm just curious as to why curse words are considered inappropriate... who decided it?

in jon's living room, jon decides. he acts through admins that he has appointed for that purpose. or were you speaking in a broader sense?

It seems to me that it is almost entirely dependent on which OP overhears you. I've been kicked for apparently saying "un-PG" words that are British slang, and I didn't know they were "un-PG." Of course, it took a good minute or so for the OP to look it up on dictionary.com and kick me without warning. I've also been kicked for saying "HI GUYS" directly after two OPs said hi to each other in caps. Guess who was the ONLY person to get kicked for it? Yeah, me. OPs really should at least TRY to be fair.

It really sucks how the OPs kick first and warn later. Simply saying "Hey, please don't say that, I don't consider that PG" is much more effective, and nicer, than a /kick.

There are some OPs, well... actually two OPs who have not gone mad with power, and that is hacky pie and OB1. I've said an "un-PG" acronym in chat before (Come on, I can't use the letter A in an acronym without getting kicked? That's just silly....) and I didn't even realize it, and OB1 PMed me and said "hey, just try to watch the language alright?" If only the other OPs could take the time out of their day to type out a simple sentence like that.

i always thought of the kick as a warning, and a fine as the punishment if the warning was not heeded.

Well now I just have to kick raveshaw so I can accurately be in the mad with power group since all ops are just mad with power.

Now to get back on topic. A /kick is a warning. If/when I kick someone I also send them a pm saying why they were kicked. The actual punishment is the next step and that is the /kill. Before someone gets that they definately get a pm or chat-mail. If you really get that frustrated over a kick I don't know how to help you. It's a 30 second boot out of chat and also shows in chat that certain things are not allowed. I personally can't speak as to how other ops handle things but I know how I was told to do thing and I do them the best I can. I also am in game a lot and not paying attention to chat and sometimes see something and missed other stuff lines above. If that happens I usually appologize for only seeing the one infraction and warn or kick the other people involved also.

Just so you know I have seen plenty in chat that I haven't kicked but that is the problem. I believe the pg rule is coming into question because so much is allowed lately that shouldn't be. I guess it's time to turn into a mean person and kick any inuendo and slang term that is against chat policy and not let people get away with so much. Then there wouldn't be so many of these posts questioning what is right and what isn't, because everyone would know without a doubt what is allowed and what isn't.


/end rant

Simply saying "Hey, please don't say that, I don't consider that PG" is much more effective, and nicer, than a /kick.

A kick is not a warning, it's an abrupt kick out of chat. In a warning, you know what you did wrong. A kick doesn't tell you what you did wrong, you simply know that you did SOMETHING wrong.

I'd really love to see the OPs just say "hey, please don't do that, I'll be forced to kick you if you keep it up" instead of /kicking.

Rave,
I don't appreciate the 'all ops are jerks but 2' sentiment.
I have warned you a number of times... and seldom if ever /kicked..

Also, if you are warned in chat on Monday by an OP (say for un-pg acronym) then the same OP is perfectly free to /kick without warning on Thursday if you do the exact same thing.

And please refrain from taking the opportunity to hijack a 'what exactly is PG?' thread into a 'bash the OPs' thread.

Moving on:
Incidentally, with regards to the original post I like the line of 'language you'd use in an interview' as it allows some context based leeway.

I not once said "jerk" in my post. OB1 and hacky pie just stick out more than the rest of the OPs as non abusive.

"And please refrain from taking the opportunity to hijack a 'what exactly is PG?' thread into a 'bash the OPs' thread."

OK so, the fact of the matter is that the whole PG rule is entirely dependent on the OP. Not only that, but there are OPs that simply aren't fair with the way they treat people. If you can't understand this, then I don't know what to tell you...

words have been branded by society as "bad words"... avoid using them... you know what they are, and they are never the only way to say something.

Rediculous? Sure. I'm quite sure if I was to see someone and say "you're stupid", they'd be much more offended than the person that heard my more colorful method of saying "holy cow" after an insane kickoff return... But rules are rules... We know them... We may slip from time to time, a kick or a small fine is simply a little reminder. If you slip and forget your turn signal, you could kill an entire family. If you slip up and get into an argument you could get beaten into a bloody coma. If ya slip and drop a non-PG, you lose 30 seconds or a small amount of cash... Live, learn, get over it.

I can only reapeat the initial question : WHY exactly is the usage of words most people would consider to be "ok" not allowed, and how exactly do you determine which those are ? I mean, I'm not a mindreader, I can only know when I am warned about their usage.

For instance, "I sat on my <word> all day long" or "wow, that motorcycle is kick-<word>".
Sure, I might use "bottocks" or somesuch word in there, or I could have used a completely different phrasing... but isn't it MUCH simpler, direct and common to use either the "a" or the "b" word in exactly the same sentence ?
Or, even worse... by the QUOTED words from the FAQ, one could almost infer that the use of the word "buttocks" is ALSO NON-PG. Or at least that's how I read that part. Is it PG or isn't it ?

So, what exactly makes those words "non-PG" ?

I am not a native English speaker, and absolutely all "slang" I pick up is from books and movies, not direct experience. I have no clue how exactly those movies/books are rated by your standards, and which words or what words in which circumstances you guys consider "non-PG" as opposed to "PG".
And no, the "words you would not say in a church" is not nearly a good enough approximation - first off, I never go to church, and I doubt anybody would appreciate me talking about just about anything in there.

So... give me a few SIMPLE rules I could follow to determine wether a word is good enough for CB or wether it does break the PG rule.

"But rules are rules... We know them."

Actually, that's exactly my point.
I DON'T know them, and I find it difficult to understand why anybody would feel some words I consider normal to be "non-PG".

For example, I have no problem using the native tongue equivalents in front of my two-year old nephew, for instance, and for that matter nobody else in the family does.

i cant be bothered to try to understand why a word that is widely accepted as PG is considered unPG here....

yes yes church blah blah blah... yes yes mother blah blah blah... yes yes widely accepted blah blah blah ....

There is no clear cut rule, but we sure as hell need one.

"if it's in shrek, it's allowed."

"if it's in shrek, it's allowed"

Proven wrong. What does shrek call donkey at one point in time? Exactly.

Well, yeah, seems to me the rule is "whatever the admin/op looking at it finds non-PG is non-PG".
*rolleyes*

that was the rule I was told to follow which would rule against edy..

Has anyone ever been kicked or fined for saying butt? I can't remember a time...

I think the reasoning behind the prohibition of that particular word is that it appears in many of the rudest phrases that get used in name calling flame wars. It's easier to just eliminate it completely than to have to explain why it's ok to sit on your, but not call someone an.

Think of a curse word,
done?
Can't say it.

It's also funny since the insult was initially meant as "you behave like a mule" as opposed to "you're a human posterior".

I'm siding with Rave. I've been /kick'd from the chat -not- by Ops but by people granted Ops Rights. Why? Because they felt like it. Its why I don't bother with chat anymore. Its hypocritical and filled with people who only suck up to Ops to keep themselves out of trouble while doing whatever they want.

"Perhaps that should be re-phrased: would people in a church on a Sunday find a word acceptable if you yelled it out? Regardless of whether or not you find it acceptable."

Hallelujah!!

Or, Amen!!

;)

Copying my post from the PR thread. ;)

Interesting question Sick. If a word has no other meaning than a vulgar one assossiated with it, then it's easy to classify as un PG. Apart from that, isn't it all down to context?

Paperwieght is a harmless word in itself, but I could use it to insult someone. Would it then break the PG policy?

How about Bastard? An un PG word, possibly. One definetly not usable before the T.V. watershed. Even though it also refers to children born out of wedlock, and CB uses the word commonly as a Melee Weapon.

Asking in the forums about a Bastard Sword shouldn't get me fined, that would be a tad hypocritical of the game. But calling someone or something a Bastard should.

Sickone: I would argue that the word that so many apparently find inextricably tied to their vocabulary _IS_, in fact, largely seen by the public as mild profanity.

Limited usage of some mild profanities, such as damn and hell, have been allowed by Jonathan; that's his decision to make. If you feel that this profanity is mild enough to warrant light usage, take it up with him.


TL;DR = It's Jon's game, thus Jon's rules.

I'll amend this quote when I get home and can find it properly, but I believe it went something like this:

"Hey kid, if I wanna run a clean game, that's my right." -- Jonathan

I didn't say it isn't his right to pick what to allow and what not.
I did say I need a CLEAR RULE as to what is and isn't allowed.
How am I supposed to know for sure otherwise ?
Let it slip first, get punished, and that should be the way to find out ?

And no, this:
"Discussions involving clinical anatomic terms will not be allowed, as the context is almost always "non-PG". "
isn't a "clear rule".

By that rule, you can either understand all discussions about clinical anatomic terms are NOT allowed, so saying "my feet hurt" would be considered non-PG... or you can understand that the CONTEXT is all that matters, so using the "a" word would be ok as long as the context is harmless (and in that case, "whoa, I am awesome, I kick <word>, I won" should be considered PG).

So... which is it ?

It's not that hard to understand, even beyond that the initial penalties are insignificant enough to make a slip up basically painless.

Breaking it down into individual words or phrases that can't be said is stupid. The goal is to have a nice place to talk, and that can't be broken down like that.

"It's not that hard to understand"

Well, I must be really retarded then, because I still don't get it.
Is it the word alone, or is it the context mostly ?
How exactly do you interpret the rule quoted by my post above, and how do you answer my comment question in that same post ?
And what about words that can be used as an insult but are used in a non-insulting manner (see GL's post) ?

As for the fines, I wouldn't call the 150k AA was fined for his non-offensive use of a body part's name (dited out on his own request apparently) as "painless" (maybe to him 150k negligible, but it would be a big deal to me).

the amount of fine has inflated itself.

fines are based on the nature of the offense, and the finances of the individual getting fined...

Honestly, I think the "rule" you quoted above is like all the others,
Hard to enforce and mainly a guideline.

Polite conversation shouldn't have to be defined down to a letter or word. It's a relatively simple idea that I think can be explained by the living room example. If you're in someones house, you do as they do.
In CB, this means speaking respectfully, and keeping crude remarks and swears in PM. The gray areas are the reason warnings and kicks exists, fines and 60 minute /kill's from chat are a second line of defense.

"Polite conversation shouldn't have to be defined down to a letter or word. "

Then explain to me how that particular post AA made (for which he was fined) was impolite. From what I see, the reason he was fined, and the ONLY reason he was fined, was the use of that word. Hence, that word MUST be considered non-PG regardless of context (which was non-offensive). But at the same time, alternative names of the same body part are considered PG, so it must be the word alone, not the body part it describes. But wait, the word can also describe an animal, and I doubt animal names are banned.

Either way you twist and turn it, it makes no logical sense.
If something makes no sense, I ask and ask and ask until it MAKES sense.
So I ask again, why exactly is that particular word considered non-PG ? What is the rule ? How can I avoid making similar faut-pas if I fail to see what was offensive about it in the first place ?

" QB[GOSHARKS]novice 1:56 PM EST
Has anyone ever been kicked or fined for saying butt? I can't remember a time...

I think the reasoning behind the prohibition of that particular word is that it appears in many of the rudest phrases that get used in name calling flame wars. It's easier to just eliminate it completely than to have to explain why it's ok to sit on your, but not call someone an. "

about 10 posts up...

It's just easier to ask people not to say it, rather than be forced to argue context constantly.

I find it amusing that the "B" word (when used as a verb) is deemed acceptable and yet AA gets pulled up for something far more minor IMO.

Either both should both be ok, or they both shouldn't imo.

These arguments need to stop. They're ridiculous. If YOU don't like the PG rule, STAY OFF OF THE FORUMS. Don't come to chat. It's not like you'll come chat if the PG rule changes. And it's not like you're not on the forums with the PG rule in place.

Get over it. It's old. You've made your points and you're now beating on the ground where the dead horse was laying (long since beaten into non-existence). If Jon wants to change it, he will. If he doesn't, he won't. Until then, stop having pointless arguments and threads and rants about it.

Dang people. I'm supposed to be the only llama around here. This has gotten plain stupid.

"These arguments need to stop. They're ridiculous. If YOU don't like the PG rule..."

My personal or anybody's position on the PG rule is irrelevant. Re-read the second paragraph of the O.P.

This is a thread asking to CLARIFY what is and what isn't considered PG. It's a thread asking to clarify the reasons behind (what it seems to me) a confusing and arbitrary selection of words that should/shouldn't fall under the PG rule.

It. Is. Not. Difficult.


Read what Slayer said. You KNOW it's considered un-PG. You're being obstinate.

Is it considered by some/any to be a swear? Yes? Don't say it. And, please, don't try to twist my words around. You know very well what I'm saying and you're far too smart to be trying to play word games. You don't chat, and you don't swear in your forum posts. Obviously, you don't NEED to say those words =)

*sigh*
OF COURSE I don't NEED to say those words, and I don't say those words in the first place ANYMORE.
But I was fined for some things I posted that I didn't think were non-PG very early on without even suspecting I would deserve a fine for them.
And some things I still find surprising to be covered by the non-PG rule - I just want to know the precise reasons why some specific words ARE considered non-PG.

Because Jon says so.

Seems to me that alot of your problems could be solved by emailing/CMing Jon =)

Instead, ya know, dragging out long forum posts and asking questions that can only be answered by Jon as he made the rules.

As for myself as an op, I don't consider that word PG because when an 8 year old says it, I wince =)

Meh... is Jon around anyway ?
He seems pretty busy with work and something else, he barely posts, don't even know how often he logs in... or how he would feel about being chatmailed with such trivial questions.
You don't go to the supreme court to ask a minor legal question, do you ? :P

Godwolf, stop trolling.

Need a list of allowed words.

kill it, kill it with fire... the thread is out of control, it's going to destroy us all!

mind the fireball!

>Need a list of allowed words.

no, no you don't 'cause then you'll just use words that "aren't on the list."

or if you do need a list follow this quick but really reliable guide from slayer:

"Think of a curse word,
done?
Can't say it."

I'm going to quote the text from the part of my facebook profile that says "religious views": Be good or die.

I don't swear, I just believe a list is obviously necessary. Thanks though.

I can't imagine very many ideas that need to be expressed in CB that requires the use of curse words.

It's not always trolling because you don't like what's being said =)

If you actually READ what Sickone wrote, he's NOT a NATIVE English speaker. So this sense for curse words that we all take for granted is not there.

And correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't AA also not a native English speaker?

There needs to a be a clearer definition.

"most holy flying spaghetti monster, I beseech you to reach down from on high with you noodley appendage and smite this thread, that we your disciples may rejoice in the knowledge that you don't wish for us to suffer under the gnarled stanky foot of so many trolls" - The lurkers prayer.

NO matter how it is defined people will still go back to... This is allowed on TV so it should be allowed here. Basically the only words allowed in chat is hell and damn. Any other curse word you can think of is not allowed. If you think there is a grey line or area there probably is, but there is no better way to clarify it. If you don't agree with a fine then appeal the fine to the higher up. If that didn't work. Stay out of chat or off forums. If you type something out and even have to think for a half a second if a word is allowed or not, it probably isn't. Deal with the way things are. They have worked in this game for a very very long time, but only just recently have been taken to making huge posts and ranting about how unjustly it is. I have been so lax in chat it's rediculous, but from now on I'm going to stick to the rules like crazy then I don't think so many people will have questions about the rule, because they will know from the kicks.

I'm trying to be constructive here, novice. No one here seems to be addressing that problem.

For the record, I've never been fined, and I love the rule. I just think it can be a little unfair in specific cases.

It's been made clear literally hundreds of times why trying to nail down what is essentially a simple rule won't work. The list of words we have hasn't changed in years. The context of other words or phrases is what determines if they are PG or not. None of that is hard to understand.

Demanding clarification or lists is just pointless, please stop.

I'm not demanding lists. I'm suggesting a little understanding, when a non-native speaker makes a mistake.

We all know the rule and the consequences.If you feel you must say something outside of what is acceptable say it! Take your punishment and move on.Anything else is just childish.

re we all in primary school? Sometimes I'm not sure.

PG rule is fine as it is.
When i doubt, use a word you don't doubt about.

I never had any problems in CB with it.

There will be almost no rule big enough to stop all
Take for instance me telling a Turkish person to "go and bother some Armenians".

Common sense (and the reaction of the Turkish person) tell me that it is not PG.

But i am sure, not many American people can see this.

Hey now, let's not resort to making blanket statements about Americans. *smile*

I was more emphasizing that "PG" has cultural as well as political and religous aspects.

"Demanding clarification or lists is just pointless, please stop."

as well as repetitive. this issue has surfaced many times in the 5.5 years i have been here. it is really quite simple, if you do not have the imagination or verbal skills to understand when something might be questionable, then the ops will teach you, for a small possibly recurring fee.

Anybody that thinks there is a need to step outside the PG ruling, that there are times when really nothing but un-PG will do, should go back and read some of the forum posts when the likes of Ranger, Sut, GL, Dude, Novice and myself got into some pretty intense arguments. They got close to the bone sometimes, but I'd say 99.9% of the time stayed well within the realms of PG. In fact for the most part there was absolutely no need to resort to un-PG when perfectly polite intelligent language was perfect for the flaming at hand.

And as for the other reason I've seen on occasion, freedom of speech: as so many people have said, this is Jon's house. That rule doesn't apply here. In fact in the UK at least it doesn't apply in RL either. If you use offensive language in public you can get arrested.

Legally, the same is true for America. Most cities/counties have rules against public profanity of some sort (I know, in the area I live it's against the law to use profanity in front of minors.)

Where I live it is as well, they fine you.

"re we all in primary school? Sometimes I'm not sure."

Who calls it "primary school"? Oh, wait, I know: non-native english speakers!

I agree with Regular Hexahedron that everyone's ignoring the fact that it's entirely plausible that foreigners aren't aware of which specific words are considered to be vulgar by english speakers. When I moved back to the U.S. after 7 years in France, I was unaware that a certain racial slur was a racial slur, and not just slang terminology in common usage. So, one day, I was telling some kids on the school bus about a funny thing I heard an African American comedian say on TV the night before. I'm surprised I experienced as little punishment as I did, in hindsight. Actually, it wasn't exactly made clear to me, even then, what part of I was saying in particular was unacceptable. I was under the impression that the worst thing I had said was a punchline of a joke that included the word that's been the topic of this thread.

I don't think a list would work. As far as chat is concerned, I hardly ever see people fined for anything they say in there (just kicks, mostly). I think a 30-second kick is perfectly reasonable as a warning. Sure, it's unpleasant if you were in the middle of a conversation, but you haven't really lost much of anything by it. And kicks can be learned from. That, in conjunction with the "polite conversation" guideline, seems pretty complete to me.

I still say not being able to use common language, especially words used on television is absolutely and utterly absurd.

By that logic then I guess we can just add user pictures with nude images because regular tv has started to show nude parts of the body.

CC we call it a primary school and I live in Missouri. Just roll that around in your head and think about how little non-native English speakers there are in rural Missouri.

Sox by your logic the world should still be using a square wheel.

^
What?

amoeba > monkey > man

1950's TV > MTV > today

and I think Titan's pic. has already bursted the 'semi' nude pic posting bubble, and is rockin' >:]

It's amazing the logic some will come up with to try to talk dirty. I think I'll follow others and let this die, and just continue doing my job in chat and let the admins do theirs in forums.

if I must make a definition of what is not PG, it would be something that you use as an insult or an expression of anger (not I am angry type of anger, but with fire all over me type of anger).

"Who calls it "primary school"? Oh, wait, I know: non-native english speakers!"

I call it primary. We have Nursery, Primary and Secondary schools. None of this lower, middle and high rubbish. ;)

And I speak 'real' English, unlike you pretenders from across the pond! :P

It was nursery, primary, junior and secondary in my time!

Me too.

Primary/Junior was sorta rolled into one. ;)

I think it was when we started to adopt the america 'Years'. It's no longer 5th year in Secondary, but Year 11.

I did nursery over a period of time - from when I was about 5-6, then primary for two school years, junior for four school years then off to secondary at 11 to start years 1-5.

Anyone care to summarise what's happened?

You may speak "real" English GL, but you've got a really weird accent :)

For me it was: Nursery, Primary School and High School.

These threads are kinda nostalgic though as they always take me back to the type of arguments and language used in my Primary School days :)

Och! It's you with the funny sounds G! ;)

Claire also went to a High school, but you were both educated out in the wilds, and not in proper civilisation! >:D

Oh yeah, dude. I forgot about British people!

Point stands about them not having a basis for what's an acceptable word.

Sure, language barriers exist. Cultural as well. But, if I went to Britan and drove on what I considered to be the correct side of the road, they'd hardly NOT give me a ticket because I didn't know.

The thing to remember is that a kick is nothing but a warning. A mild one. Most ops still give a verbal warning before the kick even.

Honestly, this thread is kind of moot. New players are the only players who have a reason to not know the rules. And with new players, ops are more lenient. But if you've been around for 4 years, you're expected to know the rules. Or 2. Or 1. Or 2 months.

Britain*


Hullo. I r from 'merica.

Why do we need a definition of PG? Is it really that hard to understand what words you shouldn't use to get a good gaming here?