Haste/Giant Strength (in General)


Godpanda November 20 2008 7:33 PM EST

Both Haste and Giant strength have seemed, for quite awhile.... weak. They're both a rather soft option and while occasional strategy pop up using one of them, they never seem to stick around.

So, let's change them up a bit. The obvious way is to simply boost their effect, and maybe that should be looked into, but that's also kind of boring.

So, instead, why not make the ST/DX granted by giant strength and haste immune to enemy EC?

Would add strategic depth to using Haste and GS, and maybe make it useful again.

Kefeck [BlackSmith] November 20 2008 7:38 PM EST

Your going to nerf your own strat haha =).

Dudster4 November 20 2008 7:41 PM EST

i like it!

AdminTitan November 20 2008 7:46 PM EST

Seconded, Haste/GS suck....

Underage Drinking [Battle Royale] November 20 2008 8:10 PM EST

then what is EC going to do?

DoS [Demon Forging] November 20 2008 8:11 PM EST

Lower trained strength and dex.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] November 20 2008 8:15 PM EST

immunity to anything tends to be a bad idea...

I'd rather see them immune to DM (which is the primary reason they're not used) if we're going that route... maybe they need to be turned into DD style spells that cast each round, this would also deal with the craptacular nature of the specialty bows to some extent.

Adminedyit November 20 2008 8:17 PM EST

EC is not a real worry if you train haste and GS, (the return for exp investment is greater on haste and GS than on EC) the real worry is DM just like any ED

Lord Bob November 20 2008 8:25 PM EST

"EC is not a real worry if you train haste and GS, "

Trust me, a concentrated EC can wreak havoc on those two spells, especially if they're both used.

Regardless, I'm against the idea, even though it would give me a massive advantage. With the RoS, these spells would have no counter whatsoever.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] November 20 2008 8:39 PM EST

Thinking a little more about having them be spells that recast every round (not stacking) I think it might work...

So EC casts for 100 on a minion with 50 STR and 50 DEX taking the minion down to -50 on both. The opponent has DM as well (RoS boost FTW!) which lowers the 200 effect Giant Strength down to 100.

In round 1 GS casts for 100, this takes the minion out of the negs and up to 50 STR. Also in round 1 the minion is hit twice by an exbow taking the STR back down to 25.

In round two GS again cast for 100, bringing the minion to the max amount of GS created STR of 100.

Drama November 20 2008 10:31 PM EST

I'd see Haste and GS as a DD spell Casting and stacking every round, on a single minion wearing a weapon, from range to the end of melee rounds. Making it better for every rounds your tank survive and giving some great new strats possibilities for melee tanks, wich is laking these days.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 21 2008 6:48 AM EST

It's not counter or lack of counter that are problems for the use of Haste/GS. There's DM and the RoS to protect them from DM. There's the massive boost from an AoF they get.

The problem is, they aren't really useful as EDs.

You don't need, or really want, more than one Tank, so you don't really need the spread of Haste/GS.

They are mostly used to buff Familiars, and you get a pentaly to your effective level for doing so.

Godpanda November 21 2008 7:03 AM EST

Sadly, GL is right. But key is to make them useful in such a way that it's worth the waste.

Brakke Bres [Ow man] November 21 2008 7:15 AM EST

none of the ED's are really useful for that matter.

AS is nice, but way too powerful combined with a familiar.
GA was rubbish, but the damage nerf kicked this back in
GS/Haste who uses that?
VA, lol (should be a skill anyway call it vampire bite or something)

the real problem is that the dependence on ED's and its quick and easy counter to it.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 21 2008 8:19 AM EST

Sorry henk, AS and GA are amazing.

AS doesn't suffer form the same problem as Haste/GS, as you train the intrinsic on a single/two minions, but all your minions gain from more HP.

Same with GA.

Not everyone gains from Haste/EC.

VA is the same here, but there is no intrinstic to otherwise trian. you train the ED, or you don't have it at all.

Wizard'sFirstRule November 21 2008 8:22 AM EST

AS is best when only train 1, with a wall somewhere training natural HP. NO mix of DM+damage can quickly kill that setup, and without DM, your AS just do stupid things like doubling your HP for your XP investment.

Thanatos November 21 2008 11:18 AM EST

I love those spells and use most of them. Yes, I would like to see them a bit stronger. But, I like things that make more strats possible.
I like the idea of making EC the counter to true strength and DX and dispel the counter to GS and Haste. There are tank teams, it just difficult to compete with the mage teams at times. I think Jon does a good job trying to balance things.

Wizard'sFirstRule November 22 2008 1:46 PM EST

or just have GS and haste give 100% STR/DX respectively. With 1 tank, you prefer to train naturally instead because of the extra vulerability to DM as well as EC. With multi-tank, 2 of 3 EO hoses you, I think that it is still have enough of a counter. Backed by ROS? probably still bad because you split your NW in 4+ weapons. However, might be a little too good with Unarm and ROS.

three4thsforsaken November 22 2008 4:52 PM EST

"AS is best when only train 1, with a wall somewhere training natural HP. NO mix of DM+damage can quickly kill that setup, and without DM, your AS just do stupid things like doubling your HP for your XP investment."

So basically AS is best used when it's too small to make a difference when DMed because of trained, but big enough to make a huge difference by doubling your HP. So it just need to be very large and very small simultaneously. That's why it's broken.

Uh huh >.>. Flawed logic if I ever saw it.

Wizard'sFirstRule November 22 2008 10:10 PM EST

there is a point where it is big enough to make a difference against non-DM teams by surviving extra rounds (where training HP won't be enough), but not being reliant on it enough so that DM team will wreck you. DM teams have very little damage, so it can never kill you fast enough.

Wizard'sFirstRule November 22 2008 10:12 PM EST

"So basically AS is best used when it's too small to make a difference when DMed because of trained, but big enough to make a huge difference by doubling your HP. So it just need to be very large and very small simultaneously. That's why it's broken. "

it is big enough to make a difference to non-DM team, and small enough so that DM team can't wreck you. It is not flawed logic. You can say a meal is too big too feed a human, and too small to feed an elephant.

Wizard'sFirstRule November 22 2008 10:13 PM EST

just to prove my point, I can beat non-ED team at my MPR with just fireball, and beat 4x ED team without ROS at my MPR, but can't beat a 5 minion team with 1 training AS and a natural wall with either setup.

three4thsforsaken November 22 2008 11:02 PM EST

Also note you're using a wet noodle, and RoBF isn't so good against a team with 5 kill slots (with a wall involved). Maybe that has a small contribution.

I hate this argument that AS is overpowered at all. GA might need some rescaling if anything, but AS has many issues. First of all, although you do get an HP boost, the more minions you have the more HP you waste on kill slots and whatnot. At the bare least, you are wasting 25% of your effect on the AS caster in a 4 minion team. Considering it has no AC or Evasion, it's a pretty large waste (better luck training HP on a wall).

Also we can always point at DM, and this argument that one can train AS at a level that's both an effective boost but not a big enough investment against DM teams is just bizarre (extra medium?). First of all, if this is true, it wouldn't show how broken AS is if it required delicate planning, and has a strong chance of not being used at all.

But it isn't true, such a setup shows no evidence that it would be able to target people abnormally high. Nor is it a good idea, with a 4 minion setup the damage dealer probably needs HP to survive backlash, familiars only have the option of AS (and only get small percentage of the effect). An extra medium AS would put you on better grounds against a DM teams I admit, but it wouldn't make a give a big enough advantage against non DM teams. It'll just be an unnecessary bell and whistle on a strat.

Wizard'sFirstRule November 23 2008 3:12 AM EST

all of my response is denoted with a -

Also note you're using a wet noodle, and RoBF isn't so good against a team with 5 kill slots (with a wall involved). Maybe that has a small contribution.
-I will concede this point that my strat is bad against 5 minion teams. The other points I will address as they come up.

I hate this argument that AS is overpowered at all. GA might need some rescaling if anything, but AS has many issues. First of all, although you do get an HP boost, the more minions you have the more HP you waste on kill slots and whatnot. At the bare least, you are wasting 25% of your effect on the AS caster in a 4 minion team. Considering it has no AC or Evasion, it's a pretty large waste (better luck training HP on a wall).
-this HP is as good as any against spread damage. I don't personally have experience with non-spread damage, but I assume that if it survive 1 extra round (2 total), it is worth it (aka not wasted). And there is not 25% wasted in a 4 minion team. you get 36.25% of your AS on each minion, that totals to more than 100%. With 5 minion, the benefit is even greater. Even with 25% of HP "wasted", your total HP is still greater than training HP, and reallocate some HP for more XP concentration.
-P.S. there is always ways you can make that AS grant HP on the minion by playing around with PL, but I think the rest of my suggestion above is enough to show that the HP is not wasted. This point is used as a parallel argument that help strengthen my point, not to prove something on its own.

Also we can always point at DM, and this argument that one can train AS at a level that's both an effective boost but not a big enough investment against DM teams is just bizarre (extra medium?). First of all, if this is true, it wouldn't show how broken AS is if it required delicate planning, and has a strong chance of not being used at all.
-The problem is that training a wall, a mage with some HP, and a AS minion would usually be that "extra medium" level of AS.

But it isn't true, such a setup shows no evidence that it would be able to target people abnormally high.
-I will concede this point as I have not checked to see how far high do such team get, but I believe this strat offers almost total immunity against anyone slightly smaller. It makes it very difficult to farm and is useful for clans. I would like a counter-argument showing that it is in fact not a good idea, as you suggested below.

(continue) Nor is it a good idea, with a 4 minion setup the damage dealer probably needs HP to survive backlash, familiars only have the option of AS (and only get small percentage of the effect). An extra medium AS would put you on better grounds against a DM teams I admit, but it wouldn't make a give a big enough advantage against non DM teams. It'll just be an unnecessary bell and whistle on a strat.
-Against non-DM team, you have more HP than you would have training HP, I think having extra 68.75% HP then they would have is an advantage. (5 minion AS give a total of 168.75% effectiveness)
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