My wishlist for Chrismas! (in General)

three4thsforsaken December 1 2008 6:38 PM EST

What I feel is urgent:

1. GA and PL rescale
2. Exbow and Axbow nerf
3. Something that allows for transfer of ranged weapon NW to melee weapon NW
4. Remove Fireball backlash


1. Because of the damage nerf, GA and PL got a boost because they are based on damage done. Currently, getting maximum effect is much much easier. I believe a rescale proportional to the damage nerf is necessary.

2. It's too efficent, it doesn't benefit the game at all. With 30 million NW, one can drain all the str or dex of a given person. With changes to make dodging much more difficult has only made these two weapons overpowered.

3. Since the game is moving to melee, many ranged teams are caught in the dust with huge, expensive but now weak ranged weapons. They should not be penalized indirectly by this change, and should be able to transfer their NW to melee weapons.

4. Fireball Backlash is counter intuitive to moving to melee. It's also counter intuitive to Jon's dislike for single minions. To encourage the use of this now sad DD, the bare least we can do is take off the backlash. Besides, it serves no real purpose.

Less urgent thoughts:

1. Minor ranged boost

Either reduce ranged reducs or add another ranged round, even though the game is moving to melee, the fact is, the ranged rounds are too short and have way to many issues to invest in them well. Ranged DDs find themselves overtaken incredibly fast by melee DDs. Poor FB and MM.

Another solution I believe (at least for DDs) is a DD belegs, it'll compete with AGs and NSC, and give a boost that'll just last in ranged.

2. Clan Bug

Is it still around? It's kind of annoying.

3. Forging boost

I have tons to say about this, but in a nutshell: Forging sucks, make it worthwhile. Good for community.

Erm I think that's it for now.

AdminTitan December 1 2008 7:12 PM EST

I love these all 3/4 and have seen them suggested before. My other hope was some sort of store that allows weapons +'s to be transfered to x's. Kindof liked this idea.

three4thsforsaken December 1 2008 10:02 PM EST

I like it too. But such a change would probably come in baby steps.

BluBBen December 2 2008 1:11 AM EST

A 2008 Santa Cap! Goes under the chrismas category of armors.

three4thsforsaken December 2 2008 2:29 AM EST

Actually, that reminds me, that I do like the idea of blacksmith credits :P

lostling December 2 2008 2:32 AM EST

What I feel is urgent:

1. GA and PL rescale
this doesnt make sense.... i think is NOW at a correct lvl
try getting x2.5 of 2mill damage at 1mill MPR
you only deal 60% damage return
you have to have HP to return damage
it doesnt work with PL
i still dont see how PL is strong... you spend exp for another minion to take the damage... at 90%
2. Exbow and Axbow nerf
nthing much to say about this... axbow on the other hand is pretty much worthless
3. Something that allows for transfer of ranged weapon NW to melee weapon NW
agreeded but have to work out the ways of abuse
4. Remove Fireball backlash
jon would have to rescale FB damage if this happened

lostling December 2 2008 3:25 AM EST

lets say you require 3mill str + 600k BL to deal 1mill damage
600k HP x number of hits
4.2mill lvls

a GA user would require
1mill HP x number of hits
2.5mill lvls in GA

3.5mill total lvls

if we count items...
GA has AOF + corns + ROS
str has TGs + TSA + HOE + BOM + AOM + TOA

if we count reduction
GA has DM at 80% of lvl (granted theres ROS protection)
STR has EC at 50% of lvl and exbows(im sure everyone agrees these are abberations)

correct me if im missing anything... so please tell me again... how is GA overpowered

MonkeyMandate [Wasting Time] December 2 2008 3:32 AM EST

don't touch the exbow, its fine as it is.

QBJohnnywas December 2 2008 3:40 AM EST

Personally I think GA was weaker than it should be previously. I think it's at the level it should be now.

lostling December 2 2008 3:51 AM EST

^5 johnny

three4thsforsaken December 2 2008 3:52 AM EST

"lets say you require 3mill str + 600k BL to deal 1mill damage
600k HP x number of hits
4.2mill lvls

a GA user would require
1mill HP x number of hits
2.5mill lvls in GA

3.5mill total lvls"

First of all these numbers are flawed. But for the sake of argument lets round the number WAY up. And assume damage is being doubled by MoD.

For starters, you've only invested 60% of the exp to deal a similar amount of damage. The only thing that deals this much damage is per level is CoC. But your never going to have CoC break your damage cap since it's spread out.


Also worth noting is that you have 4.2 million levels forced to be invested on one minion. The real question is how much exp do you have left on that minion? If you've had any experience with top GA teams, you'll realize how much of a problem this really is. The second that minion dies, all the exp you've invested in it dies. This doesn't apply to GA, as the effect applied to any HP on any minion.

Now, I would like to point to real numbers cause in truth, people aren't breaking GA.

In fact, a 6 million GA should pretty much contain 90% of all damage in the game. The only thing that can probably break it is SG, but an argument that GA is balance because it keeps up with a gigantic SG is still hardly an argument.

lostling December 2 2008 3:59 AM EST

i could actually calculate all the bonuses but that would be pointless... personally i just think u could add more X instead of the humoungous amount of + everyone is adding still...

so many people live in the past

QBJohnnywas December 2 2008 4:00 AM EST

When I was running The Prestige I had a 4 million level GA on it. Certainly wasn't containing 60% of all damage in the game. Far from it. And that's before you take into account the big DMs if you're talking about GA up top. It's good, but not overpowered at the moment.

It has DM to counter it. And actually, weaker damage from an opponent can actually weaken GA's effectiveness. If GA is hitting back for lesser amounts the opponent can last longer and effectively be dishing out more damage.

Cube December 2 2008 4:04 AM EST

^That's only true if you're talking about a damage dealer with a TSA on, otherwise it's a percentage and doesn't make a difference.

iBananco [Blue Army] December 2 2008 5:20 AM EST

So what counters the RoS?

Wizard'sFirstRule December 2 2008 5:21 AM EST

10m HP + 1m STR and better against GA than 1m HP and 10m STR.

Wizard'sFirstRule December 2 2008 5:21 AM EST

assuming the GA has enough to contain the 10m STR.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] December 2 2008 7:36 AM EST

Bananco: more DM

Rawr December 2 2008 9:36 AM EST

Like Hubbell O.O

Lochnivar December 2 2008 11:02 AM EST

Incidentally, GA (at optimal level) returns damage at 0.24 pts per level.

Any extra levels are useless.... anything less returns damage at a worse rate.

So GA puts out damage at half the rate of MM and is completely useless against walls, enchanters, and RoBF minions. How is it that the underpowered MM gives double (and likely more than double) the damage of the overpowered GA? And that isn't to mention that DM is much more efficient than AMF.

So yeah, I think it might be ok as is.
(though a small tweak to say 3xdamage instead of 2.5xdamage might be ok(

Zaekyr December 2 2008 2:31 PM EST

I think my biggest problem with GA is the supposed reduction of return damage by AC level.I am not seeing it.My AC level isn't huge but it seems like anything above 100 should get at least a couple percentage points of reduction.Problem is,from what I am seeing I get 59-60% damage return on AC 166,154.And I believe from the numbers that the only way to reduce GA damage with AC is having AC up around 250 or so.which is usually the AC of a wall which doesn't deal any damage.

Another thing that bothers me a bit is the use of ROS to insta switch strats from a HP boost to a GA boost.I have thought that maybe GA should be an EO to counter this.Or perhaps GA as an ED that only affects the caster and reduces the damage to the caster like an alternative to armor.

GA seems illogical otherwise and I have found the best way to help fight GA is GA.I'd rather not have GA trained at all but it has almost become neccesary.

three4thsforsaken December 2 2008 2:35 PM EST

GA does less than MM? That's a stretch.

For all those whom believe GA was underpowered before the damage change, it's not true. Remember the forgotten NUB? The guy that ran an AS AS AS GA IF strat and for a while was the only person beating LA (or was it conundrum?). I forget the name but he had a foot for his profile pic.

Another thing people forget, is that the big counter to prevent GA from being used back in the day often was the ToE. Now it's different.

And after the change, I remember the Prestige was in the top 10 for a while. It was because of his use of GA and SG that he was beating people over a million MPR higher than him.

Anyways, my point is that GA does show evidence of being very good in the past and more so in the present.

Which leads me to elaborate on what I think GA should behave."

GA should not recoil the entire 60% as the norm.

First of all, there is idea that 60% recoil isn't enough. How about I give an example.

My Ice familiar takes about 2+ million damage from GA every round. Short of DM (which would make me take 7 million damage from a base decay) there is nothing I can do to reduce this damage. Sure I'm doing 1-1.5 million damage per minion but I'll never overpower those GA. By the time I beat such teasm, I have ran through 12 million of my 14 million HP.

Now I ask is this practical to require that much HP to use my IF? If my IF can't crack those GA eggshells, I guarantee your CoC won't. In fact I guarentee your FB, or MM won't, and with their low AC probably not even your SG.

And to those whom aren't convinced that 60% isn't still alot. I will point out to AMF. Surely people are aware how devastating the backlash is to a mage. Now from my expirence, the optimal level of AMF is .2 - .3. According to the wiki that'll be 20-30% reduction, with 40% of that being backlash. Now you can do that math, but you know that AMF backlash that has been killing you? It's much less than 60%.

Now what can we do about it? Very little. In the past the only way to deal with GA was to overpower it. Truthfully, it's not easy to practically overpower GA at this level. Sure lostling will say, that tanks just need to drastically pump the Xs on their weapon and train bloodlust. But frankly, arguing that GA is fine because of the potential use of people whom maximize damage with large amounts of money and retraining is a stretch. What about people whom don't train BL? What about the mages? What about the people whom don't want to spend millions and millions on weapons?

People aren't doing as much damage as they used to do. Hatch is running around with 7 million str, a MoD, and a 120 million NW weapon. And he hits me for 800k-1mil damage. If I wasn't using AS he would halve that.

So in a perfect world, the most balanced GA will not always contain damage effects, I believe. In normal gameplay it should probably recoild normally abour 40-50% because damage still breaks the cap. Yeah.

QBJohnnywas December 2 2008 3:15 PM EST

Top ten yes with The Prestige. Beating people because of my GA? Not entirely true. A 8 million level SG, a 5 million AMF and the GA combined was the reason, plus 4 kill slots and a familiar! Oh and a very large AoF.

But that's a good point about the ToE. I'd forgotten how well that worked against GA.

Ok, turn down GA from 11 to about 8. That ought to do it.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 2 2008 3:22 PM EST

i just want jon back! : (

Lochnivar December 2 2008 5:29 PM EST

"GA does less than MM? That's a stretch."

MM approaches 48% of spell level...

GA is capped at 60% of 40% of spell level (24% if we do the math)

So theoretically every 1 point of MM will do the damage of 2 points of GA.... now obviously there are other factors (walls, AMF/DM, PL, etc) in the final damage done but in terms of potential?

I certainly don't see the basis for GA is over-powered...

Now if the AC reduction of GA isn't working correctly that is a different matter entirely.

three4thsforsaken December 2 2008 5:48 PM EST

"MM approaches 48% of spell level... "

The wiki is not updated. Note that 10% damage nerf in January, and the 33% damage nerf from last changemonth. That'll put you around 28%. But that's still a high estimate, I am lead to believe from experience that the initial value is lower than that. Also note that you never really hit the max damage.

I was running around the last few days with a SF with over 10 million effective MM. I was popping around 1.2 to 2 million damage in melee. Let's not talk about ranged rounds, or AMF, or AC. That'll just depress you :P.

three4thsforsaken December 2 2008 5:51 PM EST

ugh, and to continue, we also have to take in account how GA attacks straight to the damage dealer.

And please read my speal about how 60% is alot of backlash.

60% is by no mean broken, though, I'm not advocating that. It's just alot for it's investment currently I believe. As everyone is doing 33% less damage for the same investment, GA still has it's bang for it's buck.

Soxjr December 4 2008 5:05 PM EST

Ok. You guys and gals keep talking just about how GA works vs Mages. Right now it's completely overboard with how ranged damage was nerfed. I do only around 400k to 500k damage max right now with a 4.5k mageseeker, and get 60% back almost all the time from GA users. I mean teams lower than me with 4 minions can get a big enough GA to get to the 60% mark. This is just my opinion, and to stop the talk before it starts. I will not disenchant to lower my + on my weapon to get more x. I will not lose that much nw when I never know if the plus might be needed again. Until I can change my weapon around and lose less or none of the nw my weapon will only grow from the x's but at a slow pace.

lostling December 4 2008 5:12 PM EST

a very simple thing to do... follow like Spirit Soaring by Tyriel is doing... ADD MORE HP :)

three4thsforsaken December 4 2008 6:15 PM EST

saying "GET MORE EXP" is hardly a solution. Especially to someone whom is caught in 7 BA with no N*B.

three4thsforsaken December 4 2008 6:19 PM EST

in fact it's worse than the GET MORE MONEY solution, which would probably be more possible.
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