Blood Vials (in General)

Okay. I got this idea from reading the New Player Retention thread and trying to absorb all the anti and pro N*B stuff.


Why not introduce a second form of currency called Blood Vials (or another suitable name). But this currency would be earned differently then money or exp. Every fight you'd make would have a small chance of earning you a blood vial (very small chance). The chance would go up as you went through the different BA regen phases (as in, much more likely in a battle to get a blood vial as a 6/20 then as a 10/20, because you're fighting less battles). More importantly, no bonuses would impact these chances (NUB/NCB/Challenge Bonus). Basically? A reward for those who burn tons and tons of BA, who play for years.

Now, an important part here is that blood vials, unlike money, would NOT be tradeable. Not with USD, CB or clever manipulation of the system. They'd be bound to the user.

But the purpose of blood vials?

This brings be to an idea to be tied in with Blood Vials.

Legendary Equipment.

Yes, we have rares. But as players have pointed out, there is no more... Magic there. Very little pride in getting a weapon that's simply -needed-. So creating items that are powerful and yet something to pride yourself on getting.

Many pieces of great armor and powerful weapons and NO way to get them outside of pure dedication. These items would cost Blood Vials (and perhaps a small amount of cash to even out the slight reduction in rares being bought via uactions) and offer variety and strength to your team.

These items could only be improved with BVs, leading to a constant strategic question between upping that Legendary sword or buying the shield that would augment your team so perfectly...


I have (and I'm sure many of you will if you like this idea) many ideas as to items that could be bought with this, but I want to see first if this idea is taken to at all.

Let me know what you all think about it.

Yeah! I like the idea of Legendary equipment

but I don't like the name "blood vials"

perhaps "booty boosters"

orrrrr maybe

"pirate looty"

this idea just got 10x better! You can thank me later wolf

I LOVE this idea a ton...perhaps even allow weapons to be customizable. As in you can forge them to take on certain characteristics out of a long list ex..life steal, ac reduction, splash damage, etc etc

I think this is a good idea. It definitely conquers the issue of USD spending vs. dedication.

That, would in a word, rock.

"More importantly, no bonuses would impact these chances (NUB/NCB/Challenge Bonus)"

YES!

Maybe.. weapon hybrids?

Cross a BoNE and a MH and get something with 10% life leech and damage in the middle of BoNE and MH.

And then just mix up the names to get the name =)
so.. Black Mithril Sword

Cross a BoTH and a VB - ignores 25% Armor and 10% life steal with damage in the middle.

Vorpal Blade of Thuringwethil

Meh.. It's just an idea.

I guess you could also extend it to armor, like crossing AG with NSC and get half the effect of each.

Not likely to happen though, I guess.

I'd like creating a whole new weapon/armor better than just combining two.

customized items. gimme, gimme. and the cost of them have to go up slightly over time to make sure they don't become new rares, and maybe allows "rental" of them, but not to use them, only forge? (aka, they are still player-bound)

I think, by definition, it can't be forged.

I was suggesting hybrids because I thought it'd be more balanced, but I like Painkiller's idea better.

Uber weapons and armor for rent.

You could make these items character-bound, or even minion-bound! Maybe this would help with the disposability of teams?

not minion bound. they become transferrable.

Since when can you transfer minions? Or did I misread that sentence?

Oh, any gear bought with these would also stay on User (transferred between characters, but not off account)

I don't really like hybrids...alot of items are already pretty close for like MH and BoTH both have lifesteal..

I was thinking more along the lines of creating completely new weapon ideas in order to extend strategy not just to what minion strategy/weapon combo to use but more into creating entirely new genres of weapons...

One thing I have never understood, and Supperman this is not a knock to you at all, is when people complain about the lack of strategy.
"oh, we could implement this! It would add to STRATEGY."

There's a TON of strategy in this game. There's so much strategy that people don't know what to do with themselves, and end up using the same bland ideas! The problem isn't the lack of strategy, it's people's unwillingness to explore it.

oh completely agree with you...the same general strats are usually followed until someoene implements something entirely new.

But I think making weapons customizable would add a easier and fun aspect to using weapons because as far as I can see it as it currently stands there are NO rare items anymore (perhaps with exception of Corn, SB's, and AoF).

AoF is a supporter item, not a rare >_>

give them seperate slots so that they dont reduce the usefulness of rares

fine fine it may not be called a rare but from the perspective of being able to buy one...

This should be implemented into the forge as well! ^^ I like this idea a lot and think it would add strategy and balance the USD/Long time playing thingimajiggy. This is one of the greatest ideas yet! But not the name blood vials.. sounds disgusting ¬¬ Try enchanted crystal ^^

I likies!

+1 GW

Yeah that would be good. This sounds similar to an item naming but better because it's something that is earned rather then bought.

"If I keep fighting I may gain enough points to be able to afford that special blacksmith upgrade for my armour"

Yeah I like that.

"give them seperate slots so that they dont reduce the usefulness of rares"

I'd prefer Legendary items to be competitive with rares. This also allows Legendary items to better mesh with current item dynamics. Adding a separate "legendary" slot is just stupid, in my opinion.

And reducing the usefulness of rares is hardly the problem. Rares are TOO useful, and the only things worth using at all. Why not give them competition?

" [Borgin]Goodfish 3:01 PM EST
"give them seperate slots so that they dont reduce the usefulness of rares"

I'd prefer Legendary items to be competitive with rares. This also allows Legendary items to better mesh with current item dynamics. Adding a separate "legendary" slot is just stupid, in my opinion.

And reducing the usefulness of rares is hardly the problem. Rares are TOO useful, and the only things worth using at all. Why not give them competition? "

This, right here.

Indeed. They should definitely be a choice over rares. Indeed, they'd be the -true- rares.

And one you can't barter your way into getting. Hard work only!

forging should also give a chances of getting vials. In fact, it should probably be higher! :D

Yeah, I agree with 3/4ths.

Sounds like a decent idea, but I doubt it will ever be implemented because Jon simply doesn't care.

"The chance would go up as you went through the different BA regen phases (as in, much more likely in a battle to get a blood vial as a 6/20 then as a 10/20"

So, is it linear in the sense that a 10/20 and a 6/20 both burn all their BA in 12 hours or so, and they both end up with approximately the same amount of blood vials?

Blood store would be pretty cool.


There's another factor I forgot though - why would Jon dare make any new feature that rivals his Supporter items in desirability?

i could get behind this idea if it used the total battles fought by that user to determine drop rate rather than the ba regen refresh rate. i am not sure jon tracks that though, but it would be more in line with the idea of rewarding dedication if it was tied to battles fought by user and it wouldn't penalize people for running ncb's.

Jon doesn't "not care". He obviously cares. This is his game. He just doesn't always agree with the players. Which is probably a good thing.

And I understand. He wants a level playing field. Which is completely understandable... But where is the reward to those who burn the BA?

An advantage is NOT always an unfair one. Sometimes advantages are completely deserved and earned. Would be nice if CB had one of those....

Blood Items and supporter/rare items aren't in the same league, so to speak. Mainly because supporter items are bought.



Those.... I extend this with caution.... Why not make Blood Vials supporter items themselves? As in, only supporters can accumulate them.

That would be a good solution! :)

I only read the first post. And, while I'm not sure on the name...I do love the idea of having something to work for.

OK, first impressions:

I assume the blood vial weapons/gear would also be bound to the character (or user?), so, we would have teams get bigger and bigger, and when a team was sold, that gear would go along with it? Or go "poof"?

Let's say they don't go "poof". Then instead of having huge weapons in the game we would just have huge characters. Kind of like tats. People would wait for sell outs, buy the big characters (with USD) and be unstoppable. Not even a bonus could catch them, since you say bonus would not increase the chance of drops. Remember: gear never goes away. Less balance would be in the game over time without any way to stop it.

Alternatively, let's say they DO go "poof" when a character is transferred. So I toil away, have all this great blood gear, and then when I sell out, I just sell the character. OK, that's fine, I suppose. But how does a new player ever catch that great gear for veterans that DON'T ever sell out? Assuming a veteran and a new player both play at the same rate, the "blood" portion of a team's "power" could never be surpassed, and no one would ever start over (maybe they would, I am just throwing out first impressions...) This is a game of slight edges -- blood gear would etch in stone such edges.

Next, when we talk about blood gear, I instantly think weapons. In other words, mages are out in the cold on a lot of types of gear -- Tanks have all that fun, and now they would have even more. There aren't as many mage-only pieces of gear as there are tank-only (the whole class of weapons comes to mind). So what would mages get out of this?

Next, Jonathan doesn't care for "chance" last I checked. This idea is about the coolest chance-based thing I have seen, but chances are still chances. How powerful are these blood items going to be? Could a lucky drop of a couple vials in a matter of lucky days change the balance of power at the top? Is that "fair"?

Finally, let's say blood vials do work, they level out over time, and they are useful by all classes of minion. And let's say they just stick with a character forever. Then aren't you essentially re-inventing MPR as quantum particles? Over time, the guy next to me will have the same number of blood vials (he better, otherwise the chance part of this is really starting to suck), and they will be of the same usefulness to him as me -- kind of like MPR. Assuming, like now, that there is really no gear that cannot be accounted for by a suitable amount of MPR, these blood vials are just discrete, chance-based particles of experience, implemented via gear. That implementation is different, but the idea isn't.

So, bottom line, if the blood vials work fairly and in balanced fashion, all this idea really does is package MPR. And if they don't work fairly and balanced, well, then they aren't fair and balanced and by definition are not a good thing.

That's my initial take, anyway. I am sure I will have more thoughts on it later...

"Blood gear", as you called it (and I actually like that name), is a hell of a lot more interesting than MPR. ;)

Hate to say it but Sut is basically spot on

"So, bottom line, if the blood vials work fairly and in balanced fashion, all this idea really does is package MPR."

I don't want to put words in your mouth, Sut, but... don't items basically package MPR? Isn't PR basically MPR+[item PR]? Why would blood gear be any different (I'm really liking that name actually!)? It's a much more interesting paradigm than the current system of rares, and allows for some malleability so we don't have "useless" blood gear floating around (read: Tulwars, Heaumes, Double Chain Mails, and their ilk).

I guess I just think blood gear would be exciting and would be a great way to reward long-term players regardless of their MPR or USD investiture (the second is what I'm really excited about).

Okay. Big post.

First, to address how the items are bound, they'd be bound to a USER. They wouldn't disappear because you wanted to start a NCB and they wouldn't go with a character if you sold it. It'd stay on the account. I think that would address, to a degree at least, the concept of characters having to stick around forever or lose out.


And yes, Blood items are simply an extension of MPR but in a tangible form. And while everyone may have equal amounts of Blood Vials (and yes, should) how is that different then the current way items are done?


And the random factor is only meant to spice up when you get them. You could easily say one vial per every 100 battles fought, but where's the fun/interest there? The randomness should definitely be set in such a way as to where over periods of time people are getting the rightful amount based on the amount of BA used.

Blood Items are basically MPR's equivalent in item form. BUT! They're a form of MPR that is tied to you, that can't be bought or sold. Right now, people basically buy MPR. NUB's get it if they just burn their BA and NCBs have to pay cash to buy BA for it.

Have a bad stretch of luck? Sure, buy the top character. But you don't get the Blood Items, the tokens of the effort it took to make that character.


As to the dilemna between balance of items betwee tanks and mages, that's hardly possible to address here. It's a game mechanic and finding any fault with this idea because of it seems wrong, to say the least.


To sum it up... You're right. But is that a bad thing at all?

To Borgin, and Wolf, a little: No, conventional gear is not a redux of MPR -- it is a redux of CASH. The cash game is entirely different than MPR: Money management, loans, forging, rentals, auctions, etc. That's what CB is as a whole -- experience and cash, just like the rewards say.

If blood vials were an entirely new family of reward with entirely new mechanics behind them, that would be different. Jonathan likes differences, he LOVES them. But this falls on the MPR side. Is that a bad thing? Not necessarily. You are right, something that is purely by-user makes this somewhat different. At that point, though, how is this all accounted for? If I sell a character that has a "Blood Sword", will it disappear and the blood vials return to my user account? Will there always be other blood gear for me to buy, or will there be rarity there?

I am seeing more clearly now that it WOULD be different simply because of the user-based aspect of it. So that just leaves the one problem -- no new player could ever best a veteran. Not ever. A vet would just always have more blood on him/her, and that would always give him/her the edge. And if you DID decide to let the bonus give more blood vials, then we're back to square one of a zero-net-gain scenario across the board. I suppose it would still be kind of cool and fun, but as you said, the gear discrepancy between mages and tanks is too big for this topic. That would DEFINITELY have to get addressed if this just became some kind of across the board deal, otherwise this would become BloodTankBlender. *smile*

Well, Sut, you're right. If a veteran player never stopped playing, a person who started later wouldn't ever catch up. Firstly, I don't necessarily believe that this is a bad thing. BVs were designed to reward dedication and that alone.

At the same time, you're very right. BloodBlender wouldn't be very fair to a new player either.


So, the solution I was toying with was a non-linear expenditure of those Blood Vials. Consider it a little bit of CB1 in CB2.

Basically, to get an item would cost a set numbers of Blood Vials, but each item and upgrade after that would cost more. Now, the issue with this (and the reason I left it out of the first post) is the problems with balancing it. The goal would be to make sure BVs don't ever stop being useless, but make sure new players could compete with players who have more.


Yes, I won't deny the fact that if the idea was adopted, a new player could -never- match the BVs for a player who burned just as much BA and didn't quit. But that hardly stops them from being competitive. The goal would be to limit it to where if you've been playing 3 years and they've played one, you don't have 3 times the Blood items.

Before the NUB and before linear weapon X, a player could get to (let's just say) x55 with huge amounts of effort, and a player with less could get to x52. That gives one player an advantage, BUT NOT a game breaking one.

I hope this is clear enough.

1) what the hell would they do?
Extra damage? meh
More HP drain for VA? double meh
trumpet blowing walruses announcing your arrival for a fight!

2) if they do any thing worth having then the lack of them would be crushing...

I see what you are saying, and going asymptotic with the BV portion of things would definitely help.

If such a thing worked, and gear were completely balanced for mage and tank alike (but still be different enough that mages weren't just another kind of tank and vice versa), I would say to use BV for ALL gear. Or just make cash BV in nature. In fact, I pushed for no transfers in the game a while back. Your idea is a less harsh version of that, I suppose. It simply makes a part of the game non-transferable, and therefore immune from USD issues.

Something in that form would be welcomed by me heartily, as long as some of the smaller details could be ironed out.

Perhaps what we can do it tie blood vials to certain game dynamics.

For example, spending a certain amount of blood vials would let one retrain a stat or two with no penalty.

Or spending a bunch would give a forging boost or money boost from anywhere to a week to a month.


As for items, perhaps they can be like naming an item, but it stacks with current naming bonuses. Like another 4 to 5 percent bonus with a minimum of a +1.

The chance would go up as you went through the different BA regen phases (as in, much more likely in a battle to get a blood vial as a 6/20 then as a 10/20, because you're fighting less battles).

With other words, forgers are excluded?

"BloodTankBlender" Man that must have been a long time ago. >_<

As for forgers, I don't know. I didn't want to extend this idea into a field that already needs a-lot of work (arguably, of course...)

But yes, in this incarnation, forgers wouldn't receive a bonus (though I see ZERO reason why they should be...)

"Next, Jonathan doesn't care for "chance" last I checked. This idea is about the coolest chance-based thing I have seen, but chances are still chances. How powerful are these blood items going to be? Could a lucky drop of a couple vials in a matter of lucky days change the balance of power at the top? Is that "fair"?"

We could have it every set amount of battles. For example: For every one thousand battles you fight, you get one blood vial.

"And the random factor is only meant to spice up when you get them. You could easily say one vial per every 100 battles fought, but where's the fun/interest there? The randomness should definitely be set in such a way as to where over periods of time people are getting the rightful amount based on the amount of BA used."

An alternate method would be for every one thousand battles fought, plus or minus 100 battles. So, you could get a blood vial at 900 battles, or 1100 battles. Of course, there would have to be an average, of say 10, so that you aren't just getting lucky and getting a blood vial every 900 battles and the guy next to you gets them every 1100 battles. So, for every 10 blood vials you get, it must average to be 10,000 battles fought, that way the playing field is fair and equal for all. Yay me.

I don't know. While I understand that Jon may not like random, I find that random adds excitement and spice.

The thing is, whether it's a set number of battles or a percent, in the long run, it should still be the same. But you get the excitement factor.

Granted! If the difference comes down to Not having it with random and having it without random, I'd rather have it!

I think what might be interesting about blood gear is the ability for them to be permanently malleable, and upgradeable with more blood.

For example, let's say a base pair of "blood boots" costs maybe 20 vials.

It has a base of 1, no penalties, and no effects.

For 5 vials, you can increase its base to 2 and give it a 1% penalty to DX, skills, or spells (your choice!). To upgrade its base to 3 would cost more vials, and increase its penalty again. So theoretically you could get yourself a base 40 pair of boots with maybe a 70% penalty. You could even cap the base, although I'd prefer to see it uncapped.

Now, say you make the above item but regret it. So for additional vials, you can ease the penalties. Heck, you could even "de-blood" an item, reducing an aspect of it and receiving some of the vials back.

But the main allure would be a list of, say, a dozen different effects that can be inscribed onto this item. You could give your boots a 1% bonus to ST/DX, skills, DD, or EO/ED; you could give them a +5 bonus to UC; you could give them a -1 to enemy base CTH (similar to the AoI); they could be enhanced to give Leadership or Endurance; et cetera. These abilities could be selected multiple times for the same item at increasing vial costs. Maybe some player would want a pair made solely to offset the penalties of their other equipment, and would have a pair of boots that give a 7% DX boost, a 8% EO/ED boost, and a 13% DD boost.

Vials could also be used to "upgrade" the item (giving it a +), and this cost would be somewhat similar to upgrading the base.

However what I feel would be most interesting about this system would be the ability to enhance an item with effects that vary with the blood item's +. Want to give it a 1% boost to skills for each +? Or a +1 to UC per +? Even a 1% DD resistance per + that decays like the EH? Or any combination thereof.

What I find most interesting about this system is that you could change your item any time you realized it was a poor combination. It would also allow for some interesting minion decisions in an otherwise relatively stagnant RPS of minions.

The "Disenchant" feature of blood items would allow a user to retain a cut of the vials they already spent, and thus they could sell their character. Or, naturally, they could transfer their blood gear to a different character.

I don't know, I guess I'm just spouting things as they come into my head. Opinions? Criticisms?

As cool as the idea sounds (I really got excited about it when I first read it but then gave it serious thought).It would result in CB becoming very imbalanced very quickly.When I first started playing I found this game interesting because although I like playing games I much more enjoy game mechanics.I never really considered making a climb for the top spot because I enjoy observing the dynamics.I would assume a lot of players like to try to climb to the number one spot and if this system was implemented any new players interested in doing so 6 months to a year after would realize they could never reach the top.I suppose they (blood vials) could be used for temporary XP or CB$ bonuses but I don't see how unique upgradeable and very "uber" equipment of any kind could be balanced through the use of BA.This idea in effect would cancel NUB in time.Because no matter how well you used your NUB you would never get past beating a certain level due to blood equipment advantages.

I have thought of one way something could be implemented to get the same kind of unique effect or feel and that would be to have specialty items that are restricted to user only but base them on Realms.For instance,say you are new to CB and decide to create a character,when you do you get a choice of a few types of items and perhaps you could customize them in some way and give them unique names.Then as you play and enter into a new realm you get a choice of some newer different items that are perhaps more powerful and/or more adaptable.This would reward players who have spent time with the game,create some more strategic possibilities (since everyone would only get one unique),and make it a little more interesting.There would be an added bonus that if someone missed out a bit on their NUB and didn't climb as high as they could then they might perhaps be in a different equipment bracket that could help them to advance.It would also give newer players something to look forward to.

I think blood gear would be different (not better) items, and bound to users, which new player can surpass by putting more effort to surpass the vet by having higher MPR or NW by spending USD.

What I'm concerned about is if bloody gear will effect encumbrance. Let's say a very dedicated player has some great bloody gear, and decides to start a new character. Should he be allowed to make use of all his previous dedication and equip his bloody gear, or will normal equipment be required until he can level up his character enough to equip the bloody gear?

This for me, is a tough decision. Giving a player a rightly earned edge when starting a character, or evening the playing field regardless of past dedication.

Also I forgot to mention, for those of you that are swayed in the other direction because a new user with equal effort to a veteran can never reach the top, I think it is actually possible IF the new player uses his wits and bests the vets' strategies. This is always a difficult feat to accomplish, but I believe it is still possible.

We need consumables!

I don't care what they are we need them!

sorry, I skipped to the end at the point that Sut was making. His point seemed to be that new players would not play if they could not catch up. This brings me to a new point. I started playing CB1 KNOWING that I would never catch up. The fact that CB2 has made it where a new player with a lot of $USD seems to upset us is the main problem. I got completely addicted to CB1 with the understanding that I would NEVER catch up!! Now the lack of new players, I would like to ask... would it be different if they did not have any option. I must digress I like the idea since it would make it universally the same.

Would we wind up with less new players. (Jonathon in particular)

Is balancing the game increasing new players, and... how is not doing so the same.

If we kept existing players, would we need new players (as much).

BTW, I love this idea.

I understand your sentiment, NSFC, and I actually never said new players would stop playing. I don't really have the clairvoyance nor energy to wonder about that. But Jonathan apparently does, considering the existence of the NUB/NCB.

I stated that a new player would not catch up (and even that would be offset by a suitably asymptotic curve for what blood gear would help with and how expensive that would be...), but stopped short of making any prophecy on how that would affect new players joining and staying.

Just wanted to be clear. *smile*

while i understand the fact that blood vials would make a definitive difference that one could never catch up with, it is not all that different from the current tatto issue. yeah they can be traded and bough, but relatively few are.

sometimes i think we need to go all the way nub friendly or go all the way veteran friendly as this fence sitting is an annoyance. one way to go all the way nub friend would be to not have tats level, but just have them all base tats and they function at your max tat level.

i guess i am still not sure which way is best but would just like to see the whole game go one way or the other.

ZOMBIE THREAD RETURNS

uuurrrggghhhh

I really hope Jon sees this...