I hope this touches you. (in Off-topic)
I really enjoyed this, and I found it very uplifting. Please don't post any negative comments. Thanks everyone. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piuoGb-Nhfw
/me stands up
Very nice post
The professor had no right to try to express his religious beliefs on others. Or rather disprove another religion out of spite. He makes atheists look bad, and that annoys me.
i believe it is a parable, not a true story.
i love how the "atheist pwned by christian" theme shows up so often in jokes and parables. the irony of the how the wavering faith of the person who has believed for years in what all the evidence points to is in one instant dashed to pieces by the person who believes in something that there is no proof of whatsoever never fails to entertain.
December 18 2008 3:17 PM EST
And false dichotomies are DELICIOUS! I'm full!
December 18 2008 3:20 PM EST
*shrugs* I see nothing wrong with teaching religion to students. Never understood why everyone is scared of letting people hear about the things that are out there. He had EVERY right to say what he said. And thet students had a right to leave. They didn't. This is college, not high school. You're not required to sit through a philosophy class. You choose that path.
I found the story quite nice, actually. I'm not a Christian or religious at all. I don't believe in a God. But I do believe that others believe and that is their right. It is belief, not logic, that dictates most aspects of religion.
Eh. I'm no expert. But I know that if I had been in that class room, despite my beliefs, I would have stood. If not for myself, for the people out there who were too scared to risk public shame for their beliefs.
True story or not it still should make us think. I posted this mainly for Christians, although I think it's a great story for everyone. I also would say that those dichotomies are not false for everyone.
December 18 2008 3:32 PM EST
"I found the story quite nice, actually. I'm not a Christian or religious at all. I don't believe in a God. But I do believe that others believe and that is their right."
a false dichotomy refers to the argument that either god exists and will save the chalk or that if the chalk breaks then god must not exist. it is a false dichotomy due to the fact that there could be other explanations as well, such as:
god does exist but had the day off
god exists but will not play petty games with disbelieving philosophy professors
there are many gods and they were forming a committee to decide who would save the chalk
the chalk doesn't exist
the floor doesn't exist
philosophy professors do no exist
I thought Sut was referring to the statements at the end, like people could not belief in god, and still not be worshiping satin etc.
dudemus, you make me laugh.
December 18 2008 4:44 PM EST
AG, the term "false dichotomy" has nothing to do with whether or not part A is false, part B is false, both are false, or both are true.
The term is used to point out that very, very rarely do any topics of deep worth have only two sides, and it is most-often times unfair and devious to force someone to choose between the two. A classic example of a false dichotomy is the phrase, "You are either with us or against us." That polarization is almost never meant to be a useful, thought-provoking sentiment, and it is most certainly almost never true. It is a straw-man bullying tactic, meant to corner someone before they can figure out what is going on. Spouses often employ such tactics out of emotional grief or anger, "You aren't listening, so I guess you don't love me..." Sorry, there are more choices there, infinitely more, than those provided.
The students in the touching story are dichotomy personified -- they are portrayed as either caving in, being scared, or both (except for the one, perfect example, the miracle student at the end). Since this is a fictional account, it's just not very good writing. I don't feel for the students at all. If one of them were a true believer, the professor cannot bother him. He can take another class, take the professor on, or ignore him. There's no duress there. That's why the schism is simply unimportant -- there's no "there" there. I would give ever student in the story a failing grade as a human being, and would fire the professor. Probably easier to just fire the author of the piece. *smile*
As for more specific examples of resounding emotional falseness in the piece, the statements toward the end starting with "Isn't it funny that..." smack of unnecessary, misrepresented polarization. "Isn't it funny that people want to go to heaven, but..." That is a bold assumption! I, for one, don't want to go to heaven. But not only am I lumped in with all other "people", I am then told what I am doing wrong to NOT get into heaven -- something I never wanted in the first place! That's not a false dichotomy, per se, but is in that same despicable family of debate/trolling tactics.
I have to be honest when I say I hope no one is touched by this. It is a self-serving (to the author, not you, AG), presumptuous, immature piece of poorly-written fiction. The only thing it should make anyone think about, in my opinion, is how to become a better critical thinker to see through such terribly presented pap.
December 18 2008 5:19 PM EST
As smart as you are, sut, sometimes you're still quite jaded.
Still awesome, of course! ;P
December 18 2008 6:00 PM EST
"This video is not available in your country."
I hope The FSM touches you.
December 18 2008 6:17 PM EST
As for the "story" part... seriously, a philosophy professor, alleged atheist, pulling such a lame stunt ?
First off, a philosophy teacher would much more likely be an agnostic or simply against the humans in charge of the institutions who claim dominion over some particular dogma.
Second, you don't try to prove the unprovable, at most you try to entice people to think about what makes them want to believe in any particular religion, then why not believe in any other religion, and then finally why the same reasons for disbelief can't apply verbatim to their initial religion and vice-versa.
Finally, the only feasable reply to that event would have been to pick up the chalk, smile, say "well, hello... want to play another game, God?" and drop it again.
December 18 2008 6:57 PM EST
Great post Titan!!
December 18 2008 7:02 PM EST
Jaded? If believing that critical thinking (and following through on that) is the cornerstone of, well, everything, then yes. Color me as the largest, proudest, milkiest, greenest, purest piece of jade ever discovered.
And, if you have the time, let me know what ARE more important than good critical thinking skills in this information age.
You can ask Bast if you need to, but I actually think most people and most personality studies would label me firmly as optimistic and idealistic.
(She'd also tell you how much I hate being labeled, probably.)
December 18 2008 7:09 PM EST
Just being nitpicky with the phrasing, but when he said "all those who belive in Jesus, please stand up", most should have certainly stood up. I am an Atheist myself, but have no problems believing that Jesus Christ did exist, and was persecuted and eventually crusified for his beliefs. The whole immaculate conception, turning water into wine, and coming back from the dead 3 days later to turn saint peter into a rabbit cuz he hid all the eggs comes entirely down to faith, which brings about another flaw in the professor's logic.
God (and most variations thereof) asks for your faith, as you have been given free will. An absolute proof of "His" existence would remove any essence of faith, as knowing and believing are two very different things.
Finally, religion is a powerful thing... Empires have risen, and fallen, lives have been saved, and taken, and decisions affecting the lives we live today have been made, and still continue to be made in the name of religion. Nobody has the right to challenge that.
December 18 2008 7:19 PM EST
Nice post, good story... except for the part about running out of the room.
I think there is way too much dissection going on, wow.. but such is life with a religious topic.
I personally feel God is the Orkin Man and Satan is a giant fly
and no, that wasn't at USC
December 18 2008 7:25 PM EST
Hmm? No. You're putting words in my mouth.
You looked at the video and found things not to like. *shrugs* Sometimes, and this is just me, I like to live life without looking deeper than surface value.
December 18 2008 7:30 PM EST
"Please don't post any negative comments."
Sorry, can't help you there. I hated this "video." I found it preachy and insulting toward atheists. I didn't believe a word of it, and that was before I read Dude's snopes article. The fictional atheist depicted therein was a loud mouthed half-wit, certainly not representative of non-believers or anybody with a brain stem for that matter.
I should post a video where an atheist belittles Christians and rips apart their faith. That would be a fitting response. Something tells me I'd be fined for that though, if not hit with a harsher penalty.
December 18 2008 7:33 PM EST
I challenge any Christian in here to explain to me in detail why he DOESN'T believe in Ra, Zeus, Odin or any other "older" deities.
After he does that, I would like him to explain to me why he DOES believe in the God he believes in.
And finally, what's the difference.
December 18 2008 7:35 PM EST
I know a vegetarian who converted to a meat eater. Trying to recall if a pose of vegans showed up outside her door with torches and pitchforks..... hmm nope not that I recall.
December 18 2008 7:36 PM EST
Empires have risen, and fallen, lives have been saved, and taken, and decisions affecting the lives we live today have been made, and still continue to be made in the name of religion. Nobody has the right to challenge that.
Well, LB, I have talked to many people who act just like this. Implying that no atheist act this way is ridiculous. In response to dichotomies, what I said was true. For one to be true, the other has to be false, that is what a dichotomy is. I was neither saying one way or another that one was true or not, simply that I misunderstood what you were saying earlier.
Sickone, if you are serious, I will CM you a long response, just simply CM me letting me know.
December 18 2008 7:43 PM EST
Kevlar's video was much better.
I endorse Sickone's challange.
"Well, LB, I have talked to many people who act just like this. Implying that no atheist act this way is ridiculous."
I know many Christians that act like, well, you. You don't see me getting on the Carnage Blender forums and belittling you, or posting videos that paint you in a bad light and glorify attacking believers or making them look like fools.
Maybe I should, and post in it "Please don't post any negative comments" and see how long that lasts.
"Sickone, if you are serious, I will CM you a long response"
Why not post it right here in public?
December 18 2008 7:46 PM EST
Nobody's challenging the *fact* that religion still does affect a lot of people's decisions.
But I'm going to go partially with Nietzsche on this one and say the human race, as a species, is doomed to forever repeat the errors of the past and recycle history as long as we can't rise above the ancient, barbaric and completely unscientific fearmongering control machine that is institutionalized religion.
I have nothing against anybody professing belief in any gods just like I don't have anything against just about anybody else thinking his wife is beautiful and his children smart... but I do have EVERYTHING against the "Church" and any human who dares to claim he's the direct or indirect but authoritative representative on Earth of a higher power (and then obviously goes on to ABUSE that power for his own purpose, no matter how noble that purpose might possibly be).
Oh, and... "ZEITGEIST, Part 1" Debunked? Acharya Responds
December 18 2008 7:47 PM EST
Not interested in CMs, Titan. Just post it in here.
Ag this video is a lie. For two reasons: No respectable school will ever force you to take a religion class of any type. Secondly last time I checked there is not a school offering "Atheism Class". But if there is, forward me the address because I would like to enroll. Not because it has a class teaching Atheism, which is silly since thats a pretty empty class. But because they have the balls to teach something other than the standard.
December 18 2008 7:48 PM EST
To be honest guys I think you miss the point of the video...isn't it just to encourage Christians to stand for what they say the believe in?
I mean it's a common battle everyone goes through regardless of the context. It's hard to stay committed to a belief 100% of the time when faced with opposition and I applaude the maker of this video for spreading it around simply because regardless of it's factual merit it is a demonstration of someones belief in something where they're strong enough to share that with others.
And for the record, thanks AG for the post it was encouraging and thought provoking.
December 18 2008 7:51 PM EST
Flatcap who are you kidding! Atheism/Agnosticism is the standard dude...It's completely cool to suggest being an atheist in university however people get up in arms at mentions of formal religion taught in school ie Christianity, Islam etc.
"I know many Christians that act like, well, you. You don't see me getting on the Carnage Blender forums and belittling you, or posting videos that paint you in a bad light and glorify attacking believers or making them look like fools.
Maybe I should, and post in it "Please don't post any negative comments" and see how long that lasts."
I could care less if you posted that LB, I was just trying to encourage some Christians.
"Sickone, if you are serious, I will CM you a long response"
"Why not post it right here in public?"
I didn't want to clutter the forum.
Flatcap, it is not an actual event, this has already been covered. I also believe that this teacher would have had people stand up during his first year.
And yep Supperman, that's all I wanted.
December 18 2008 7:55 PM EST
"I didn't want to clutter the forum."
Feel free to clutter. It's completely germane to this thread.
December 18 2008 7:56 PM EST
"To be honest guys I think you miss the point of the video...isn't it just to encourage Christians to stand for what they say the believe in?"
By putting up a dim-witted caracature "atheist" puppet and throwing rocks at him, then spending two minites and nine seconds talking about how everyone who doesn't lead a Christian lifestyle is part of the problem, oh, and you should send this to non-Christians to insult them, preach at them, and get them to convert. Yeah, that's what they were doing.
And you "applaud" this?
Well, for one Ra and Zeus, along with other greek and ancient gods, didn't actually exist. Jesus was actually seen by humans and has been written down in recorded history. Also, Jesus was prophesized about in the Old Testament. He fulfilled these prophecies and showed his power to his disciples and many others. Why would people, prophets, die for a lie. They surely would not. Also, they're is a reason it is called faith.
December 18 2008 8:01 PM EST
All this hostility is totally uncalled for. If you don't agree with the message, cool. But maybe this is one of those times when you should walk on instead of getting out the flamethrowers?
You don't -always- have to put in your 2 cents.
December 18 2008 8:04 PM EST
"Flatcap who are you kidding! Atheism/Agnosticism is the standard dude..."
Roman Catholic 23.9%,
other Christian 1.6%,
other or unspecified 2.5%,
none 4% (2007 est.)
You're not the minority here. Stop acting like you're the one being oppressed.
"I could care less if you posted that LB, I was just trying to encourage some Christians."
If it was as inflammatory as yours, I'd imagine you would jump in. I'd expect, and in an odd way, HOPE you would stand up for yourself.
How many of those people actually believe in Christ LB. Secondly, the majority of people on CB on anything but Christians.
December 18 2008 8:07 PM EST
LB...first off I should state that I don't believe that all religions have their merit. At the end of the day only one religion or certain set of facts can be true. The rest are just false.
I think that people have a tendancy to avoid making tough stances by stating a "to each their own" viewpoint. People who are able to say this is what I believe in and I want to tell others have strong courage that I admire. I don't think that the video came across as being offensive but instead thought provoking.
If that video had ended with a "this is my religion and you have yours" kind of sentiment it would erase the meaning and purpose of the video/story
December 18 2008 8:10 PM EST
The stats you posted LB while being entirely factual don't represent actual society IMO. Take a look at university life. The religions that are listed as being the dominant percentages I see VERY rarely demonstrated in UNI life.
UNI life isn't real life.
December 18 2008 8:13 PM EST
"Well, for one Ra and Zeus, along with other greek and ancient gods, didn't actually exist."
And on what facts do you base your statement about their non-existance ?
"Jesus was actually seen by humans and has been written down in recorded history. Also, Jesus was prophesized about in the Old Testament."
Watch first part of Zeitgeist, watch the debunkers, watch the above linked deconstruction of the debunkings. You should find the evidence of Jesus being an actual person to be shaky at best.
"He fulfilled these prophecies and showed his power to his disciples and many others."
Says who ? The Bible - New Testament ?
A document heavily edited 500 years AFTER the supposed events ?
There is no conclusive proof Jesus even existed, let alone that he did the things he's credited to have done in the NT.
"Why would people, prophets, die for a lie. They surely would not."
See mass suicide cults in THIS day and age. They sure would.
"Also, they're is a reason it is called faith."
Yeah, it's called that because it's not based on any evidence whatsoever :)
December 18 2008 8:13 PM EST
"How many of those people actually believe in Christ LB."
Add the numbers. 51.3 + 23.9 + 1.7 (Mormons count, right?) + 1.6 = 78.5%
"Secondly, the majority of people on CB on anything but Christians."
Then why did you post it?
"LB...first off I should state that I don't believe that all religions have their merit. At the end of the day only one religion or certain set of facts can be true. The rest are just false."
They're all false.
SupperMan, while I generally admire conviction, this was clearly the wrong way to promote it.
December 18 2008 8:14 PM EST
"The religions that are listed as being the dominant percentages I see VERY rarely demonstrated in UNI life."
I would recommend you read a book called "The Carpenter."
December 18 2008 8:17 PM EST
And education levels.
Jesus Camp - a 2006 Documentary
December 18 2008 8:17 PM EST
I'd imagine it's more preachy nonsense trying to convert me, so I'll pass.
I would recommend you read a book called "The God Delusion."
December 18 2008 8:18 PM EST
Thank you Sickone.
Yah, I know Bob, it sure is inconsiderate of others to try to save you from what they believe is eternal damnation.
December 18 2008 8:19 PM EST
Now for the other side:
"I think that people have a tendancy to avoid making tough stances by stating a "to each their own" viewpoint."
I feel that people have a tendency to seek attention or self-verification by putting down the beliefs of others by stating a "your way is soooo wrong" viewpoint...
"People who are able to say this is what I believe in and I want to tell others have strong courage that I admire."
People who run around preaching their own ways as divine and attempt to force it upon others have strong ignorance that I feel is insanely disrespectful.
"I don't think that the video came across as being offensive but instead thought provoking. "
I didn't think that the video came across as being thought provoking so much as it did being preachy and intrusive to the beliefs of others.
No disrespect intended, but this is what I and many others believe in. I would never force my beliefs on someone, and in return, I would expect the same courtesy.
December 18 2008 8:20 PM EST
"Yah, I know Bob, it sure is inconsiderate of others to try to save you from what they believe is eternal damnation."
It sure is, considering it's a big fat lie, annoying, and insulting. I don't need it.
At the request of AG, this post is closed, all posts entered after this one will be deleted.
This thread is closed to new posts.