Investigating UC and the AoJ (in General)


AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] March 25 2009 9:43 AM EDT

Many thanks to Warlord shadowshade, whos loans have made it possible for me to burn a little BA running thorugh this.

I've only done a little testing to start, and am working thorugh my results.

But I thought I'd post the first thing I noticed up.

Base post fight UC for the familiar used is 1,360 (81 Bonus PTH).

Junctioning a pair of +11HG with an AoJ made that 1,600 (96).

Just training a base UC on the minion (Post fight UC of 0 with a bonus PTH of 0) increased that to 1,840 (110).

I appears that Junctioning UC items applies the effect of the item twice. Once as the effect junctions over to the Familiar, and again when the bonus to the wearers innate UC is transfered over.

;)

More to follow.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] March 25 2009 9:46 AM EDT

"Junctioning a pair of +11HG with an AoJ made that 1,600 (96)"

Edit: Make that 1,700 (102).

Silly testing with a SoC for the UC penalty. ;)

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] March 25 2009 10:39 AM EDT

either this aoj is the most buggy item jon ever created, or it is the craziest idea yet.

i had over 5 million levels in bloodlust and decided to train it into uc since that seemed to be working from the above posts.

a base uc overwrites all levels on my familiar and junctions over base uc stats! my post battle uc went from 4260 to 320.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] March 25 2009 10:45 AM EDT

just to be clear, the effect is not adding onto my familiar's stats but replacing them.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] March 25 2009 10:58 AM EDT

I've not seen that Dude.

My testing shows this relationship;

Trained UC on Minion and the Jigs UC are added together by Level, then give a new effect.

If you add in HG

The Trained UC effect plus the HG effect is turned into the appropriate level. This is summed with the Jigs level to give a new effect.

After this, the HG effect is applied again, as usual, to give the final UC amount of the Familiar.

For exmaple;

With a trained UC of (10) and +17 HG, this is turned into a UC of (27) on the minion. The level of (27) UC, 275,701 is added to the level of the Jigs UC (for my exmaple it's UC (68) 946,454 to produce a new UC of (80) (or 79, the rounding seems a bit dodgey here...). Adding in the HG +17 on the Jig then gives a final UC of (97) with appropriate stats shown post battle (1940 UC and +116).

I hope this helps!

blackshadowshade March 25 2009 11:07 AM EDT

The rounding could be dodgy here because of the naming on the Jig.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] March 25 2009 11:12 AM EDT

>_<

TY!

I didn't amend the Jigs UC due to it's naming!

That settles it. The calculation is;

1) Add HG Effect to Minion UC Effect
2) Turn new Effect into equivalent UC Level
3) Sum amended Minion Level with Familiar Level
4) Add HG effect to final Familiar UC Effect

:)

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] March 25 2009 11:14 AM EDT

what level is your jig?

and again to be clear, i only posted the uc number but all numbers went down dramatically. effectively turning my 6m jiggy into a near base one.

i would test more and find out if it is my soc or something else, but i have tested too much during this ncb and lost mpr too often.

blackshadowshade March 25 2009 11:26 AM EDT

The Jig is: Spirit of Danica Maupoissant lvl 1,840,275
where the level shown is the raw (not the effective) level.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] March 25 2009 12:30 PM EDT

i am now wondering if naming my aoj broke it bad. perhaps gl will test it to rule out that possibility. i have also cm'd nightstrike, with no response as of yet, as well as adding this post as a new reference on known issues wiki entry.

QBRanger March 25 2009 12:42 PM EDT

1) Add HG Effect to Minion UC Effect
2) Turn new Effect into equivalent UC Level
3) Sum amended Minion Level with Familiar Level
4) Add HG effect to final Familiar UC Effect

Sounds like a very nice JKF buff.

Perhaps enough to compensate for the loss of HP from not being able to junction an AoF anymore.

BarCap March 25 2009 12:44 PM EDT

Are all the item effects added twice or just the HGs?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] March 25 2009 12:48 PM EDT

here are the actual post-battle stats from my earlier test on my jiggy, the first batch is a good level of bloodlust for my strength and the second set of stats is base uc trained. the gear stayed the same and is what i currently have equipped:

bloodlust:

str ~ 2,200,000 rounded
dex ~ 4,500,000 rounded
ac ~ 86
UC ~ 4260
base to hit ~ 50
bonus to hit ~ 255
evasion ~ 108

base uc:

str ~ 25
dex ~ 25
ac ~ 83
UC ~ 320
base to hit ~ 50
bonus to hit ~ 19
evasion ~ 24

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] March 25 2009 12:59 PM EDT

I've got all the results saved on an Excel sheet at work, if anyone could help me with Tables here I could post it tomorrow.

I didn't test with Dex increasing gears, but I don't think there's a need to.

I'm 100% sure what happens is the total trained UC level of the minion, including HG effect and any Dex based increases, is added as a level to the Jigs UC.

Then any Junctioned items are added.

So Dex boosting items would work on both the Trained portion and then. Ah, something else to test.

*Does the Dex increase from Junctioned items apply to the Jigs UC before it's summed with the minions, or after.*

That could be an even bigger boost.

Imagin a 1Mil trained UC, getting boosted by +50% Dex items, then boosted by a HG (Gi would work as well, if you could wear one with a Jig...).

Then that's summed with the Jigs inherant UC.

Then that total is then further increased by Junctioned Dex items...

BarCap March 25 2009 1:03 PM EDT

I could loan you some elven gear if you wanted to test it.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] March 25 2009 1:05 PM EDT

Thanks but I've got a +21 pair of EBs (and I'd use HG over EGs), I just utterly forgot to test any Dex increases. ;)

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] March 25 2009 1:23 PM EDT

as for the excel table, if you convert it to a google doc you can just share the link in the forum, it works pretty well.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] March 25 2009 1:28 PM EDT

thanks for doing the heavy lifting!

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] March 25 2009 1:29 PM EDT

sent over my named aoj as well as my jiggy for an hour! thanks as well.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] March 25 2009 2:31 PM EDT

Nuts! two fights off giving you some big numbers as a tease! Dude if you're still on mind sending them back for a sec. But I'm off out in 30 mins for the night. ;)

Got numbers with me, will crunch them at work. Just want to say I didn't see Dudes problem, even with a named AoJ. ;)

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] March 25 2009 2:32 PM EDT

will send all my gear off of my junctioned minion then.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] March 25 2009 2:33 PM EDT

KK, let me know the xfer fees. I'll also retrain to match what you've got trained. I dumped all my remaining XP into UC. :P

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] March 25 2009 2:35 PM EDT

no worries about the fees, i really just want to know what the heck is going on with my character.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] March 25 2009 2:36 PM EDT

No retrained yet, or used your other gear;

Kano beat Leonard [341467]
Kano crushed Leonard [238531]
Kano pulverized Leonard [278015]
Kano pulverized Leonard [305175]
Kano crushed Leonard [274642]
Kano crushed Leonard [273514]

That's what you get with a +434 weapon. ;) WooT! Get back to you in a min.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] March 25 2009 2:39 PM EDT

7 Hit?

All your gear and +510

Kano-san beat Raygnorak [328122]
Kano-san crushed Raygnorak [393042]
Kano-san pulverized Raygnorak [280692]
Kano-san pulverized Raygnorak [388895]
Kano-san crushed Raygnorak [251952]
Kano-san pulverized Raygnorak [344156]
Kano-san pulverized Raygnorak [297462]


Why thank you! :P

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] March 25 2009 2:40 PM EDT

why the heck won't it work for me? i truly must not be living right!

00 March 25 2009 2:42 PM EDT

finally seeing some heavy damage from a non-mage again, almost 1.5mil per turn. nice!

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] March 25 2009 2:44 PM EDT

And that's with a staggering 1,424,952 STR. ;)

Dude, silly question, but when you train UC, as it classes as a wepaon, your familiar/minion order changes. You're not still looking at your 20 STR/DEX Jig holder and thinking it's your Jig, are you?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] March 25 2009 2:45 PM EDT

nope, it reduced me so much that i lost as well, so it isn't just a display issue either. ; (

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] March 25 2009 2:46 PM EDT

when i get the gear back i will retrain again (/em cries!) and post an actual screenshot, unless the unequipping and reequipping were to have fixed my issue, which i hadn't tried.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] March 25 2009 2:48 PM EDT

Don't know mate. Might be something to do with your team set up. :/

Untraining all but a base UC and sticking it all into GS gave;

STR: 6.5 Mil UC: 3,500 (+210)

Kano beat Locknar [420977]
Kano crushed Locknar [518429]
Kano pulverized Locknar [567112]
Kano pulverized Locknar [370039]

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] March 25 2009 2:49 PM EDT

so i wonder if the bloodlust issue was just me as well, i guess it is very likely that is the case.

00 March 25 2009 2:49 PM EDT

*tear*

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] March 25 2009 2:51 PM EDT

OK, no more testign tonight, have to go out. I'll take the numbr sinto work tomorrow, and figure out how my EBs effected things. ;)

But 7 hits! :D

Time to go single minion and try to get the first 8 hit C-C-C-Combo!

;)

Colonel Custard [SeeD] March 25 2009 3:07 PM EDT

This is really fascinating. Too bad I have no AoJ, and my big jig is on my other character.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] March 25 2009 3:49 PM EDT

i have no idea what the heck is going on! now that my equipment is back and i have reequipped it all, i get totally different numbers and it is looking much more like i would expect except for one thing that is still off by about half.

my evasion was at 108 before sending the stuff to gl. now it is setting at 57. i think gl stole some of my evasion!

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] March 25 2009 3:51 PM EDT

just checked to be sure and evasion is actually now sitting at 52.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] March 25 2009 3:58 PM EDT

my 6m jig, trains uc at 3m. 33 percent of that would be 1m evasion which should be around the 107 level i saw before instead of the 52 i get now.

Colonel Custard [SeeD] March 25 2009 4:00 PM EDT

I was going to mention that, actually, dude. If you PTH was at 225, making your UC about (213), you should have about 175 Evasion (according to wiki values), assuming full DX matching. Does your DX match 7 mil? Even if not, you should get 60% effectiveness or something, so assuming 0 DX, you should still have ~140 Evasion, I believe. Unless the wiki wasn't updated when something or other was changed about UC/Evasion.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] March 25 2009 4:04 PM EDT

if you figure it on the boosted uc level, my post battle uc is 4760 which divided by 20 is 238. this would mean a 9.8m boosted uc level. divide that by 3 and my evasion effective level should be around 3.3m?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] March 25 2009 4:14 PM EDT

ok, removign the aoj, my evasion on jiggy is at 108. putting it back on causes my evasion to drop to 52. both of these come from the post battle stats.

Colonel Custard [SeeD] March 25 2009 4:20 PM EDT

Wasn't there something about it transferring stats over relative to how they are on your equipping minion?

Like you can train a base BL on a 20-ST minion and it would transfer over at .75 to your familiar because that's the effect it has on your minion? Maybe because you have 26 DX on your junction minion, it's applying the DX-Evasion link backwards, or something.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] March 25 2009 4:24 PM EDT

yeah, but i was the one who thought it was doing that and now it appears i may have been buggy. which is why i just don't know any more.

i think i may eat some more xp loss and untrain my uc, check my damage and then train base bl and then throw 5m into bl and see if now i get different numbers. before i was getting lower numbers for base bl and max effect bl than without. that is all i know to do now.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] March 25 2009 4:29 PM EDT

well with bl, my evasion is back to 108, but i am still not seeing anything other than random damage differences between no bl, base bl and bl trained to 1/4 of jiggy's str.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] March 25 2009 4:48 PM EDT

maybe if gl can test again with his gear with an eye on evasion or perhaps he has that stat in his tables.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] March 25 2009 5:11 PM EDT

went back to a base uc, this took my evasion down to like 24 or 25. i then played with training up dex to see if that would bring my evasion up by training it. it did bring my evasion up very slowly but it brought my uc up dramatically for a small amount of dex.

blackshadowshade March 25 2009 6:02 PM EDT

OK, now you've got me curious. I'll untrain my BL too and put it into UC, bit by bit.

blackshadowshade March 25 2009 6:15 PM EDT

OK, here are the relevant parts of my with-150k-BL melee fight log vs Miltown Mafia (with the Kano-san renamed to beat the spellcheck):

Kano DX 1,328,470
UC 2,280
Melee Bonus-To-Hit 136
Total Evasion 67

Hatefer DX 126


Kano tapped UC Tank for now [99532]

Kano pounded UC Tank for now [75567]
Kano beat UC Tank for now [83358]

Kano fractured Steveh [103219]
Kano pounded Steveh [93997]
Kano pounded Steveh [107464]

Kano pounded Steveh's familiar [128060]
Kano crunched Steveh's familiar [91545]


-----
After untraining BL completely, this becomes

Kano DX 1,330,870 (obviously the effect of training)
UC 2,280
Melee Bonus-To-Hit 136
Total Evasion 67

Hatefer DX 126


Kano bruised UC Tank for now [78090]

Kano beat UC Tank for now [87054]
Kano crunched UC Tank for now [87048]

Kano beat Steveh [90892]
Kano fractured Steveh [82222]

Kano fractured Steveh's familiar [81156]
Kano pounded Steveh's familiar [87490]
Kano crunched Steveh's familiar [110581]


Just like dudemus, no expected boost of damage from BL.

OK, time to try UC.

blackshadowshade March 25 2009 6:30 PM EDT

The equipment I'm currently using on Hatefer is:
An Amulet of Junction [0] (+10)
A Pair of Elven Boots [10] (+26)
A Pair of Helm's Gauntlets [4] (+13)
(and naturally the JKF)

OK, once more, a fight with no skill trained, just as a second baseline:

Kano DX 1,330,870
UC 2,280
Total Evasion 67

Hatefer DX 126


Kano bruised UC Tank for now [79994]
Kano tapped UC Tank for now [115070]

Kano crushed UC Tank for now [104694]
Kano pulverized UC Tank for now [90845]

Kano crunched Steveh's familiar [102542]
Kano fractured Steveh's familiar [115490]

(ok, no hit against Steveh this time)

-----
With a Base UC trained on Hatefer, I now have something very interesting:

Kano DX 1,330,888 (ok, effect of another train)
UC 2,540
Total Evasion 28

Hatefer DX 126
UC 40
Total Evasion 28


Kano tapped UC Tank for now [121595]
Kano bruised UC Tank for now [78258]

Kano pounded UC Tank for now [116541]
Kano crushed UC Tank for now [86927]

Kano pulverized Steveh [109765]
Kano crushed Steveh [121275]
Kano crushed Steveh [92393]


AND let's try again!

Kano bruised UC Tank for now [110421]
Kano bruised UC Tank for now [123816]

Kano pounded UC Tank for now [120245]

Kano pounded Steveh [85532]
Kano fractured Steveh [90648]
Kano beat Steveh [129762]

Kano pounded Steveh's familiar [87461]
Kano crunched Steveh's familiar [138714]


Note that Hatefer has a base Decay, and still attacks using that.

On the train page, I see for Hatefer:

Unarmed Combat Level: 195,134
Raw Level: 27
Effect: 19
Raw Effect: 0

blackshadowshade March 25 2009 6:46 PM EDT

OK, after training up some UC, on Hatefer's train page, we now have:

Unarmed Combat Effect 211,341
Raw effect 13,713
Level 21
Raw effect 1

Fight log:

Kano DX 1,330,951
UC 2,540
Melee Bonus to-Hit 152
Total evasion 29

Hatefer DX 126
UC 420
Melee Bonus to-Hit 25
Total evasion 29


Kano tapped UC Tank for now [122924]
Kano bruised UC Tank for now [121913]

Kano crunched UC Tank for now [99191]
Kano pulverized UC Tank for now [118487]

Kano pounded Steveh's familiar [123808]
Kano beat Steveh's familiar [131869]


AND again!

Kano bruised UC Tank for now [124821]
Kano bruised UC Tank for now [100240]

Kano fractured UC Tank for now [125862]
Kano crushed UC Tank for now [124684]

Kano pulverized Steveh [102211]
Kano pulverized Steveh [101992]
Kano pulverized Steveh [103886]


I think it is clear that even a minimal UC beats BL hands down because of the double effect of the equipment.

Going on to increase the UC effect significantly ...

blackshadowshade March 25 2009 6:58 PM EDT

OK, now I've trained all my available free XP into UC. This gives me, on Hatefer's train page:

Unarmed Combat Level 406,331
Raw Level 136,931
Effect 37
Raw Effect 14

Kano DX 1,330,969
UC 2,760
Melee to-Hit 165
Evasion 38

Hatefer DX 126
UC 740
Melee to-Hit 44
Evasion 38


Kano bruised UC Tank for now [109475]
Kano tapped UC Tank for now [92085]

Kano fractured UC Tank for now [117778]
Kano crushed UC Tank for now [86542]

Kano beat Steveh's familiar [97712]
Kano crunched Steveh's familiar [98743]
Kano crunched Steveh's familiar [124593]


And again:

Kano bruised UC Tank for now [110099]
Kano bruised UC Tank for now [129252]

Kano pulverized UC Tank for now [116481]
Kano pulverized UC Tank for now [121478]

Kano crunched Steveh's familiar [94902]
Kano beat Steveh's familiar [129926]
Kano crunched Steveh's familiar [136324]


A third time:

Kano bruised UC Tank for now [123980]
Kano bruised UC Tank for now [106268]

Kano crunched UC Tank for now [88589]
Kano fractured UC Tank for now [110125]

Kano beat Steveh [146645]
Kano crunched Steveh [144682]
Kano fractured Steveh [126774]

Kano pounded Steveh's familiar [88732]
Kano pounded Steveh's familiar [104467]
Kano pounded Steveh's familiar [100675]


One last time, again with attacks against Steveh:

Kano tapped UC Tank for now [95434]
Kano tapped UC Tank for now [87606]

Kano fractured UC Tank for now [113689]
Kano pounded UC Tank for now [87152]

Kano crunched Steveh [133622]
Kano fractured Steveh [133103]

Kano crunched Steveh's familiar [97062]
Kano fractured Steveh's familiar [123570]


-----
Those numbers agains Steveh are way higher than before (when I have the chance to hit him!).

blackshadowshade March 25 2009 7:07 PM EDT

Unfortunately, the loss of evasion I've had through training UC seems to cause me to lose consistently against Megaviolent now, though I was beating him consistently earlier. :(

blackshadowshade March 25 2009 7:20 PM EDT

Just for the hell of it, I thought I'd use the AoJ on my other minion, who has already trained Evasion.

Here's the stats on blackshadowshade's train page:

blackshadowshade Level 188,080
Raw Level 188,080
Effect 54


Here's the stats on the fight log:

Kano DX 957,582 (no boosting equipment)
UC 1,360
Melee to-Hit 81
Evasion 44

blackshadowshade DX 20
Evasion 44


It seems quite clear that Evasion gets carried directly over by the AoJ.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] March 25 2009 7:22 PM EDT

To be honest, I wasn't looking at Evasion (Only post fight UC and Bonus to hit), and hadn't recorded any numbers for it.

If tomorrow (Going to bed soon! :P) I could borrow some more gear, I'll test Evasions from UC this time.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] March 25 2009 7:24 PM EDT

Edit: Inlcuding training a bunch of natural Dex on the Junction minion, to see if it's the UC to Dex relationship that's lowering Evasion.

blackshadowshade March 25 2009 8:06 PM EDT

Prompted by a remark by Novice, I'm going to retest AoJ/BL.

I'm going to concentrate on the damage I do against the minion Steveh.


OK, here are 13 non-terminal hits with no skill trained:

130029
134183

107737
114618

131039
97502
120703

126813
127006
119662

127570
94870
128383


mean: 120,008; estimated population stdev: 3,693


OK, now with a base BL (which has full effect on the minion with 22 STR):

109798
106736

89347
106340
116344

121709
100928
86542

132508
99602
81318

116493
131289

mean: 107,612; estimated population stdev: 4,654



With a BL of 138,600, which should be enough for the 550k STR of the JKF, here are the hits:

87852
133070

91156
115508

132591
101801
124305

88185
132192

82469
119009

131882
105236

mean: 111,174; estimated population stdev: 5,579


I don't see any boost at all from BL.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] March 25 2009 10:14 PM EDT

yep, same as what i saw with bl, actually it decreased damage in every sample i took so far.

gl if ya need my gear tomorrow yell. when you pump natural dex, besides watching just evasion take a gander at the affect it has on your uc number as well.

i would love to go with the uc training, but the loss of the natural evasion is a killer for me as well especially against the hal and elb teams.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] March 26 2009 4:13 AM EDT

I'm on for the day from any time now. ;)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] March 26 2009 5:29 AM EDT

OK, thanks to more generous loaning, I've done some more testing. On Evasion from UC this time.

(Dex items analysis later, the breif look I had at it confuzzled me! :P)

The base Evasion of the Jig used was 67. Adding an AoJ to aminion without UC trained didn't change this.

Training a base Uc on the minion didn't change this (I want to note the post fight Evaison for the minion wasn't zero here but blank).

Adding my HG gave the minion an Evasion of 26. The Jig also had an evasion of 26.

Training more UC, and using/not using HG in *every* case made the Jig have an Evasion score exactly equal to that of the Junctioning Minion.

Training Dex on the Junction minion increased the Evasion the Jig got, becuase it increased the minions (up to the limit of the trained skill).

This is bugged.

No matter what Evasion a Jig should have, it copies the Evasion score of the Junctioned Minion.

I'm going to test if the Evasion skill itself overwrites the Jigs inherant Evasion as well.

blackshadowshade March 26 2009 5:32 AM EDT

I look at it this way:

If the minion has UC or Evasion, the Jig gets lazy and insists that it be carried piggyback. :)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] March 26 2009 5:33 AM EDT

Junctioned Evasion is bugged.

The Jigs natural Evasion is 67.

I trained an Evasion of (10) on my Junctioned minion. Without an AoJ it works fine.

Using an AoJ, my Jigs Evasion drops from 67 to the 10 of the minion.

blackshadowshade March 26 2009 5:39 AM EDT

What about testing PL now? Does it transfer?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] March 26 2009 5:50 AM EDT

I'll get on that!

OK, as for Dex items, I'm stumped. Has Junctioned Item bonuses changed?

Using just my +21 EBs, Instead of the 31.5% increase to skills I expect to see, I'm seeing UC increased by 51/54%.

:/

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] March 26 2009 5:56 AM EDT

PL doesn't Junction. At all.

I trained a 100,000 level Junction. And using a wepaon to switch minion order, when facing Decay, if the Jig was in front and hit, the minion would absorb damage, but if the minion was in front and hit by Decay, the Jig wouldn't.

I couldn't get the Jig to ever absorb any damage.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] March 26 2009 5:58 AM EDT

Jig in front so Minion gets hit by MM;

cream's familiar's Magic Missile hit Ken [57662]


cream's familiar's Magic Missile hit Ken [56837]


cream's familiar's Magic Missile hit Ken [66906]


cream's familiar's Magic Missile hit Ken [73826]


cream's familiar's Magic Missile hit Ken [104096]


cream's familiar's Magic Missile hit Ken [108939]
cream's Decay hit Kano-san [2315503]
Ken absorbs damage [180000]

No PL from the Jig.

blackshadowshade March 26 2009 5:59 AM EDT

You may need a second minion and have the carrying minion die first, since only one PL is ever active at a time.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] March 26 2009 6:06 AM EDT

Minion order should take that into account though.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] March 26 2009 6:07 AM EDT

And with the cheap option at 12 Mil, there's no way I could purchase another minion to test this. ;)

blackshadowshade March 26 2009 6:10 AM EDT

So, are you up to altering the wiki?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] March 26 2009 6:37 AM EDT

What, I've got to do everything? :P

On it now. ;)

blackshadowshade March 26 2009 6:39 AM EDT

Hey, I'm doing RL work while you're out carousing with my tat! ;)

Thanks, GL!

QBJohnnywas March 26 2009 6:40 AM EDT

Can you spell "broken"?

;)


Nice work though mate. Just like the old days!

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] March 26 2009 6:42 AM EDT

:D

I know!

I'm loving this! More obscure changes please Jon/NS! ;)

Colonel Custard [SeeD] March 26 2009 12:40 PM EDT

"Using just my +21 EBs, Instead of the 31.5% increase to skills I expect to see, I'm seeing UC increased by 51/54%."

I was tracking my tattoo growth on my last NCB using an Excel spreadsheet. I took down a lot of data, and part way through I noticed that Junction was junctioning a lot more than its stated bonus over to my Jiggy. +22 EBs were giving me 81.5% boost to DX, and +25 EBs were giving me 86% boost to DX before the round of changes made to Junction (in December, I guess?). Meanwhile, my boost to UC was apparently getting larger each time my tattoo leveled a bit more.

Post-change, the +25 EBs gave the proper DX bonus (that is 36%), but my UC levels were still growing on a curve rather than in a line.
Looking back on my charts, it looks like my DX level was boosted by 36%, and my UC effect was boosted by 36%, whereas the equivalent UC level for those effect numbers represented values between 40 and 65% higher than what my tattoo should have had.

For example, when my Jig was lvl 991,148, my expected UC level was 495,574 and expected effect was (43). With +25 EBs, it gave me (58) effect, which would fall between the level values of 746,524 and 765,354. The midpoint of this range is about 52% higher than 495,574, but (58) is just about 36% higher than (43), rounded.

So I think junctioned DX/skill-boosting gear boosts your Effect, rather than level. You can check this against your data, and we can ask Jon if that's intended, or add it to our list of AoJ buggy issues.

three4thsforsaken March 26 2009 4:31 PM EDT

I"m not sure if I like how this is turning out.

I'm looking at the possibility of going single minion Jiggy quite closely now though...

QBRanger March 26 2009 4:37 PM EDT

Yes,
With all the jiggy's buffs, it is quite a nice powerful tattoo.

However it still cannot dodge a FB.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] March 26 2009 4:42 PM EDT

if there werent' so many bugs plaguing it i think it would be nice. i will wait until many of them are fixed though to give my final opinion.

QBRanger March 26 2009 4:44 PM EDT

Dude,

For the purpose of this thread, can you please post all the know JKF bugs now?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] March 26 2009 5:07 PM EDT

soc doesn't work with jiggy for returned damage.

when using aoj, jiggy and junctioned uc skill, the minion's evasion stat overwrites the familiar's when it should likely add or if that is too much just have the familiar's count instead of the lower (most likely) minion's stat.

when using the aoj with a jiggy and bloodlust there is no increase in damage. bloodlust appears to not junction at all.

when using the aoj with a jiggy and phantom link, there is no pl effect. phantom link doesn't appear to junction at all.

i think that is it.

QBRanger March 26 2009 5:27 PM EDT

Dude, what if you put a base mace weapon on the minion junctioning the SOC/JKF?

I know that will mess up the order of the minions/familiar but can you test that out to see if that works.

QBRanger March 26 2009 5:32 PM EDT

With the PL thing:

Here is a battle report (part) from a battle with 3/4th.

His enchanter uses PL:

Hal shot Splice [392628]
Hal hit Splice [481747]
Cricket hit Splice's familiar [459961]
Splice absorbs damage [459961]


Hal shot Splice [522374]
Hal hit Splice [509039]
Hal shot Splice [465249]
Cricket hit Splice's familiar [564447]
Splice absorbs damage [486000]
Cricket shot Splice's familiar [532901]
Splice absorbs damage [486000]


Hal shot Splice [486182]
Hal shot Splice [534479]
Hal shot Splice [432919]
Cricket hit Splice's familiar [559351]
Splice absorbs damage [486000]
Cricket hit Splice's familiar [510979]
Splice absorbs damage [486000]


Hal shot Splice [418129]
Hal hit Splice [480554]
Hal hit Splice [368879]
Cricket shot Splice's familiar [625466]
Splice absorbs damage [486000]
Cricket shot Splice's familiar [629816]
Splice absorbs damage [486000]


Hal hit Splice [398589]
Hal hit Splice [382927]
Hal shot Splice [541116]
Cricket shot Splice's familiar [660632]
Splice absorbs damage [486000]
Cricket shot Splice's familiar [612596]
Splice absorbs damage [486000]
Cricket shot Splice's familiar [656133]
Splice absorbs damage [294470]

R.I.P. Splice

Hal hit Splice's familiar [405019]
Hal shot Splice's familiar [389651]
Hal shot Splice's familiar [511788]
Cricket hit Splice's familiar [413173]
Cricket hit Splice's familiar [442358]

As you can see the enchanter is using PL just fine, his familiar does not use it.

I suspect when junctioning PL only the enchanter gets to use it.

Alternatively it may be the first minion in line uses PL due to the level being the same on the familiar and enchanter.

If someone can test this, perhaps 3/4th using a base weapon to change the order of minions, this can potentially be solved.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] March 26 2009 5:32 PM EDT

i just threw one on there, will see what happens when i get more ba in ten or so. thanks for trying!

three4thsforsaken March 26 2009 5:38 PM EDT

I'll equip a weapon for the next few hours. Go crazy.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] March 26 2009 5:42 PM EDT

gl did post it above, see the 5:58 am post for today.

QBRanger March 26 2009 5:44 PM EDT

So now we know,

If you PL an enchanter, the PL is the enchanters.

But if the enchanter dies, does the tattoo then take of the PL?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] March 26 2009 5:57 PM EDT

tried the base mace, still the same result:

Kano-san's shield flashes! [0]

Kong Ming April 19 2009 7:59 AM EDT

Can we use an AoJ and junction trained UC onto a HF?

QBRanger April 19 2009 8:41 AM EDT

No idea, perhaps someone with a HF can train a lower level UC and see if the HF attacks during melee.

blackshadowshade April 19 2009 10:30 AM EDT

I seem to remember that the Hal just keeps attacking normally, not using the UC to attack.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] April 19 2009 10:47 AM EDT

Yeah, shadowshade is right, this has been done already. The hal just keep attacking normally.

{Wookie}-Jir.Vr- April 19 2009 2:19 PM EDT

Hal continues firing the bow in melee...

I trained an UC skill of 100, and noticed zero effect on the HAL.

The minion has str/dex though not sure if that matters. It did gain an evasion slot in post battle, but it was zero.

Has anyone noticed that a Junctioned familiar shares the exact armor class as the minion? I didn't know the AC applied as well. That's kind of nifty!

Anyways, I'll do some testing on a 20/20/20 char here soon.
This thread is closed to new posts. However, you are welcome to reference it from a new thread; link this with the html <a href="/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002hSX">Investigating UC and the AoJ</a>