Would using a known bug be classified as cheating? (in General)

I have always wondered this.

IE,

The BOE is quite bugged and nothing has been done with it since its inception/change.

It seems that each + on it gives 8% dexterity and skills. I do not know if it gives a bonus to magic with each +.

So if someone uses one, let us say on an evasion minion or tank, to superboost dexterity or evasion, is that cheating?

Or just playing the game?

And why cannot this be fixed? Has Jon given up on CB?

I still say it's not bugged until he says it is, he has left undocumented bonuses on items before.

Nope, I don't think so, people abused the scoring system when that was happening. I say if Jon or NS doesn't want a bunch a people doing this then they should fix it.

"And why cannot this be fixed? Has Jon given up on CB?"

^ Good question.

Abusing an obvious bug such as buying infinite BA for free etc can be punishable, I doubt anyone is going to get punished over this.

Actually nov, Jon stated in the changelog thread the bonuses were fixed and not + dependant.

And what other items in CB have had undocumented bonuses?

So, while Jon has yet to fix it, it goes against what he posted in that changelog.

"And why cannot this be fixed? Has Jon given up on CB?"

Yeah, where have you been Jon? :( I've not seen much posting from you this month...and there are lots of bugs D;

And this is the thread where he states "yes, flat".

http://www.carnageblender.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002gja

The AoF was originally stated as being a 2% per plus bonus if I remember right... I can't remember the other example.

What other items are bugged? Well the one that comes to my mind is the SoC working with ranged weapons.

if members of the community hide a bug and exploit it then i would say repercussions might be deserved.

if the community has done its best to get the bugs fixed (we can only do so much unfortunately) then the only repercussion should be a faster response time from the devs!

The Belegs used to give more than advertised; which wasn't known until somebody tested it; Jon fixed it, and I don't recall anybody accusing any users of cheating.

But it wasn't widely publicised if it was known about. This is different, but having said that, if it's advertised and not fixed...I'm not sure if counts as abusing a bug.

hehe, Jiggy and AoJ...

" The AoF was originally stated as being a 2% per plus bonus if I remember right... I can't remember the other example."

jon admitted the 3% was a mistake but decided to leave it that way. not really a "hidden" bonus in my mind.

i guess he could choose to leave it this way as well, but 1% is vastly different from flat bonus to per plus bonus! ; )

soc is also bugged with jiggy.

I took the statement as Dudemus did.

An undocumented addition to mean something Jon wanted in play but did not let us know about.

But this bug on the BOE is effecting some people and not others. Just like the AoJ bug.

But the AoJ bug is a negative bug, you do not get the bonus.

While the BoE bug is a positive bug, you get a super bonus.

One cannot exploit a negative bug but can certainly exploit a positive one.

"I do not know if it gives a bonus to magic with each +."

i have a pm to someone who may enlighten us on this aspect of the bug.

some bugs have been classified as cheating such as the money making transfer bug in cb1 that saw players banned/reset but equipment "bugs" until being called a bug by the administration.....probably aren't a big deal

The stacking bonus does not apply to the 5% increase in spells.

"The stacking bonus does not apply to the 5% increase in spells."

As I not so excitedly discovered immediately after renting one for 100k.

Try stopping someone from not upgrading a piece of armor, besides its not like its a critical bug.

last gasp sent me some numbers on his boe and mm:

w/o b o e 4,558,428

w/ b o e 4,980,040

from my calculations it is giving a 9.25 percent boost to mm. it is a +28 boe, not sure if it is named or not.

While not a critical bug, it certainly effects gameplay.

IE a superboost to evasion.

It's not critical like the disenchant bug for example, when it first came out.

so? I paid good money for my items. And i will put it on my minions where it fits. How it really works is not my concern. Callin' people cheating is not cool since the fault (if any) is not theirs.

What are you typing about LA?

And as one of the top players, I would hope you take some part in making sure the game is playable and works well. Saying you just equip items you buy is very ignorant of the obvious place you occupy in CB.

BTW, It was not you I was referring to, but since you chimed in, what is the level of your evasion with and without the BoE?

And is the BoE the reason you beat me?

the BOE is very buggy, i didn't say it wasn't.
But i paid my last $ for it, so i just put it on. The evasion? LOL.
few hundred percents.

There are about 3 or 4 bugs that give the user a bonus, all of them are being used. If the devs don't want them to use and/or abuse these bugs, then I guess they should change it.

i think Jon is too busy is all. Give him a little time.

Ran some tests on my only guy that has skills, ie PL

Without BoE or any other type of equipment 1312502
with BoE 2362503

Increase of about 80% for only 10 points.

That is indeed a tad much. As for the DD it only increases it by a very small amount. 4mil spell I only gained 60k from it.

As for other skills, evasion? gimme a break that skill has been thoroughly neutered, that its hardly effective against any form of PTH or dex.

And I see where this thread is going again, Ranger can't hit things because of one item again. Thats is probably the only reason why you put up this thread, looking out for no1 huh?

i only criticized the "cheating" section. But Ranger is absolutely right.
I can tell you now that since i have one of the biggest BOE out there. My calculation (just now) is +32 gives over 320% to evasion. Let your imagination goes wide.

Way to make it personal for no reason Henk...

He's trying to get a bug fixed, how is that anything horrible?

Let me get this straight, please.
A player pays Jonathan 6$ or 11$ for their BoE. Following this exchange the community spreads word of its broken enchantment bonus. You're then expected to not use the item, because it is cheating? You're paying the creator money for upkeep of the game, but unsure if you should use the item until it is fixed, if ever?

Not that my opinion matters, but evasion has been super-nerfed anyway, might as well use it while it lasts...

I still wanna know how that forum blacklist thingy works...

If an item is that buggy where it does things Jon did not intend, perhaps it is too powerful.

And yes Henk, I made this post due to 1 person that I currently fight that has it equipped.

The fights go a bit longer than I expected and the BoE is the reason.

I did not know LA was getting such a huge bonus, as with his character I fully expect to lose to him. Now, perhaps without the BoE I would be beating him.

I have yet to figure if anyone I am losing to is beating me due to one, since as a N*B I am not spending BA to see.

And while you think evasion has been neutered, your so myopic.

Evasion is not what it used to-incredibly powerful for the xp.

It is now better balanced. You get a minus to PTH. Again, people got so spoiled in CB when evasion was powerful. Tanks missed, sometimes with 200M NW items, vs a 4 minion team using an evasion minion. Tell me how that is balanced. And lo and behold, it was changed/fixed just after I left.

But now, with evasion better balanced, you can still combat excessive PTH. And if you really want to not be hit, spend more xp into dexterity to remove Bth. But do not cry you cannot be invulnerable to tanks with so little xp as before. Deaf ears.

But in a lot of battles, 2 vs 3 hits a round makes all the difference between winning and losing. Evasion can make that difference. Especially when someone is getting >250% bonus.

Which is massive amounts of free xp. Which translates to massive amounts of free MPR. Which is more power. Which in turn translates to being able to beat those they should not, lowering their scores. With lower challenge bonuses for those that could legitimately beat them.

So yes, this is effecting not just me, but everyone who is not using/abusing one. Lowering our challenge bonus.

So I would love to see this fixed ASAP.

right ! 3mil evasion -> 10.9mil

take away the skill bonus...except for UC :D

Yeah, your right, Ranger. I can only assume I was rather sleepy when I posted that. ;)

It's cheating. No doubt about that.

But I'm using a BoE atm. It's a known issue that hasn't been 'hotfixed' and it's kinda unreasonable to just expect everyone to sideline thier BoEs (which are all bought for USD) until it's finally fixed. Which could take months. Or could be made a feature (unlikely, but maybe something like +1% per +).

Then again, anyone who's using a known broken item to get a silly +100% (or close) increase to Skills/EO's shouldn't really expect people not to claim cheese or foul.

Ideally, this would have been fixed before it became an issue.

(Taking a personal moral highground, I'm only using a +1 so as to not get any advantage from the bug)

And everyone could just DE thier BoE to +1 to still use one. Until it's fixed.

I'm using a base BoE to get the bonus that is supposed to be there (for minimal extra NW). :p

Does a +0 give bonuses? I thought the bug was that it multiplied the plus by the bonuese it gave. So does a +1 actually give extra bonuses over a +0?

LoL.

In which case I've been cheating anyway. ;) And cheating it is, but I really can't see how Jon could punish anyone for it though.

Yup, the +0 gives bonuses! Ban GL for cheating! :p

Since the issue has already been brought up multiple times before and Jon has apparently deemed it currently unworthy of spending time fixing it, I'd say there's nothing wrong with using it. However, it's just like any overpowered item or skill - can't complain when it gets neutered [read: fixed] in the future, as everyone will have seen it coming from many miles away.

a BoE with +0 gives the magic bonus but no Dex or Skills bonus and BoE with +1 give a small Dex and Skills bonus but the same Magic bonus, +2 gives a bigger bonus to Dex and Skills but the same Magic bonus.

I doubt it's LA's BoE that's the cause of you losing. Whatever that BoE is doing it's not making it impossible for his evasion wall to be hit. With a PTH of only 112 I can hit him every round. Admittedly only for a single strike but with two archers with ELBs you should be getting in double strikes at least. It's that pesky ranged damage; tis just too low.


Meanwhile, I'd agree with OB, if fixing it isn't a priority then the usage of the BoE under these circumstances should be allowed. After all people have paid for the item.

I've noticed a lot of these going at base in auctions recently, and there aren't any upgraded ones in rentals or anything. I was kinda getting the impression that most people didn't want to upgrade theirs at all for the time being, which is such a waste. I want some superboost to my UC.

Additionally, while it is fine (and noble? or honest?) to self-limit to a BoE +1, it doesn't seem to make sense to me nor is it fair to have to wear 19 AC body armor when you could get 48 AC out of the same piece for just 2.5 mil NW. Again, it goes back to almost not using an expensive piece of equipment until it works the way it's supposed to. Speaking of which, someone who knows should edit BoE NW values in the wiki.

I hit for about 500k damage a hit between the HF and my tank.

2 archers x 6 rounds = 12 hits.

12 hits x 500k damage = 6 Million damage.

I think that could make the difference between winning and losing vs LA.

So, where the heck is Jon to fix this?

It seems he has given up on CB a while ago.

The biggest thing that upsets me is:

Jon makes the NUB to give new players incentive to stay and play. And grow. Yet lately he seems to be ignoring the game, letting quite large bugs exist.

Who, if they just come into CB, would want to stay knowing that there are plenty of bugs the developers ignore?

People complain that CB is losing players, or not growing. But who will stay, if new, knowing the support the game has gotten lately?

Just upsets me that this fix should be very easy, but is effecting some portion of gameplay.

Agreed. Every other thread made by a new player now is less "Hi, I'm new" and more "Hi, the tutorial is broken and I can't get into Chat and the game wants me to hire minions but I've hired all 4 and I can't hire anymore so what now?"

If the tutorial is that broken - and it clearly is - then wouldn't we be better off without a tutorial at all? New players would do better to be started off with Chat and no tutorial, as we're all quite capable of teaching them how to play...

So that's the part of the original post, and of the thread discussion, that bugs me the most. Not that the BoE is broken, but that Jon seems to have given up on CB.

I think people play the game because it is fun.

I have never played a game, found it intriguing, but left because I couldn't see enough long-term dedication from the maker. I didn't come to CB looking for an RFP or wanting a marriage commitment. *smile*

I think you have a good point, Ranger, but the hyperbole can probably be toned down a tad. This is just a game. If it is immensely more than that to you, that's totally your right and totally fine, but don't project on Jonathan. The game could go down tonight and never come back, and Jonathan wouldn't owe us a thing.

Oh, and DM isn't over-powered (I thought I would state that before the thread inevitably turns in that direction. *grin*)

Of course it is a game.

However, I hear about trying to get new players, trying to increase support, etc..

However, what good is that if the programmers are no where to be found.

And, yes, DM is way overpowered :)

of course DM is not overpowered. Try giving any team 20 billion DM, and it wouldn't affect my fight one bit.

It's broken.

I vote fix it.

"The game could go down tonight and never come back, and Jonathan wouldn't owe us a thing."

True, but that would really suck for anyone who, say, bought into the game. (and I don't mean buying CBD for USD.)

Yes, it would suck. Just like losing anything sucks. But nothing lasts forever.

The world will look up and shout, "Save us!"



And Jon'll whisper, "No."

Just so everyone knows Anyone with a BoE could put around 3 mil dex and 1.5 mil evasion to shut down any tank. The only way one could compete would be to use a BoE themselves and try to get the dex advantage.

I don't think a co-owner would agree with the concept, sutekh, that the creator saying "wellll, I guess I'm done maintaining this, sucks for you" is acceptable. I may be wrong, I'm not going to speak for anyone, but I'd sure as hell have a problem with buying into a game as co-owner and then the guy with the server doesn't feel like keeping it up.

Not that that's what is happening, of course. I don't think Jon's given up on CB, I simply think he's not allotting it any time. But you get my drift, right? It isn't just "oh well, that sucks" for everyone. There's more at stake for at least one community member.

I FEEL ALOT OF YOU HAVE ABANDONMENT ISSUES!

with that said, if its(BoE) not broken, dont fix it.

and this is a silly post about if something we all know is cheating? i say enjoy it, embrace it, nothing lasts forever.

except the BoE _is_ broken. ;D

Giving 300% to skills is not a little broke.

It is battle changing broken.

300%+ to skills and dex.

Yeah, that DX part is important...that means if your DX is at 60% of Evasion, it continues to be at 60% after the 300% buff and so you get Evasion's full effect.


Guys there's this woman staring at me from across the room and I swear to god she is the creepiest lady I've ever seen. She's just looking at me with her arms crossed, like I did something wrong. I'm thinking about causing a scene here to give her good reason to cross those arms. >:O

At times like that OB, always check your trousers.

You are psychic!!!!


...they're unzipped

repeat after me...

the sky is NOT falling, the sky is NOT falling

Archery was broken for six months, the vb was hilarious OP for years... and you're whining like it's the end of the freaking world?

I'd love to be sure of my contention that it was intentional... dex and skills could use that kind of bonus really. How else are you going to give people something better than the TSA? It is the BoExpertise after all, it should actually DO SOMETHING. Why is it that every time an item actually does something half the community goes into a fit?

I agree that DX and skills could use a good bonus-giving armor, perhaps on par with the TSA by giving like...1% per +.

But 300%+? I'm thinking that's broken. Nothing in CB comes even close to that kind of percentage on anything, at all, ever.

Yes,

And it took a LOT of posts to finally get the VB and archery fixed.

Should we just sit by and let people get 300% to dex and skills?

That is foolish.

Yes you should. lol

No, but crying wolf about Jon being an absentee deity is just as ludicrous.

So far the only thing I've seen it do is be an effective counter to archery... something we're severely lacking in at the moment. I fail to see the catastrophe.

The world will look up and shout, "Save us!"



And Jon'll whisper, "No."



BWAAAHAHAHAHA

Definitely made me lol.

I agree, there are no absentee deities, just absentee Admins!

I really wish he would come back though and fix some of the bugs.

Maybe flip us over to the rolling bonus while he's here. ;)

And how is archery that bad we need a broken item to give 300% or more bonus to dexterity and skills?

I see one character with a super human bow trying to keep up with Mikel and you and it appears to be failing.

Without a massive NW investment, archery and bows are not as powerful as you profess.

Yeah, Ranged weapons already got a massive damage nerf, there's really no need for a superpowered counter item.

Now, if we had the old bugged BGs back...

First let us have a broken overpowered skill to combat archery.

And when that gets balanced, let us use a broken piece of equipment that obviously Jon did not intend to give such a high bonus.

How about we see how it works when it is fixed?

I am still shocked that people want to avoid physical damage 100% with little xp usage. And think that is well balanced.

If you want to avoid physical damage, use NW like tanks do in your DBs, AND use xp in both evasion and dexterity. But do not cry when your hit if you do not want to pay in xp and cb.

Gee, I am a tank and want an item to boost my AMF by 300%. Since DD is just too powerful. Whaaaa Whaaaa. And if Jon makes one that is obviously broken, I want to see NO posts about it.

O, I forget, we already had that with the MgS. It was too powerful, yada yada, and it got 25% nerfed. There were plenty posts on that item.

But to complain about an item giving 300% extra bonus is not permissible?

C'mon, get real.

Seriously though Ranger it seems to me that all you ever do is complain. Honestly, if Jon hasn't fixed it by now he intended it to be that way, It's a supporter item it's supposed to be good.

it shouldn't be THIS good tho, i mean for what 10m cbd you can literally not ever be hit because of the bonus to skills and dex?

No, it can't be meant to be that way. Because it is too broken. As a tank it will make it so that you HAVE to have one to fight, or else forsake dex entirely.

Hmmm,

So his post in the initial changelog of a fixed bonus does not matter.

Instead a 300% bonus to dexterity and skills is ok for you.

Since on my tank, I can get easily 10M dexterity and 5M effective archery level. Making all tanks who do not use one, fall way behind. But if 7M free levels in dexterity is ok with you, perhaps it is what Jon really wanted when he made the BoExpertise.

Interesting.

But I do a lot more than complain, if you pay attention.

Yeah I wish he would fix it as well :(

Honestly, what's the point of this thread? All that's happening is whining and complaining. Sorry, but it's true. Yes, the BoE is borked. We're all aware of that, but having a hundred posts in this thread will have no effect. Jon is aware of the problem, and the streamlined "Bug" thread has already been created. All you can do now is wait for Jon to fix it and shoot him an email to motivate him.

Complaining is not beneficial. It's not "fair," but that's why it's a bug. Just wait for Jon to fix it and smile when people have to retrain their strategies once it's nerfed.

there is no harm in complaining. I would rather have a community that brings up bugs often as opposed to one that shuts up and sits down.

Demi

This was not really a complaint thread about the BoE.

It was as I initially posted.

And if using one with its bonus is not against the "rules", then so be it.

I just really hope this gets fixed fast.

But imagine if Jon introduced a new tank item, to give tanks more PTh and instead of +1 per +1 of the item it gave 4x what he intended. Imagine the threads that would create. And I would like to see the same people who now say "shut up and live with it" still keep that attitude.

The BoE is a huge bug. One that we need to try to prod Jon to come and fix quickly.

"Honestly, if Jon hasn't fixed it by now he intended it to be that way, It's a supporter item it's supposed to be good."

Jon has said that he didn't intend for it to be this good.

Novice: You are crazy, you want the BoE to be left this way counter the TSA that's absurd. Maybe a way to murder a tank with half of it's MPR more like it.

And as an aside, the TSA is very much overpowered. But not along the lines of 300% more strength for +30.

It gives both strength and regeneration.

I would like to see the regeneration ability move to the EH and the strength bonus stay with the TSA.

At least to give people some choice on what armor to use.

But to say that the BoE needs a 300% bonus to dexterity and skills to counter the TSA is a bit skewed.

I would like to see the regeneration ability move to the EH and the strength bonus stay with the TSA.


I TOTALLY THINK THIS IDEA IS AWESOME. A separate thread for VOTE might be needed.

And as you can see, I do not make suggestions or complaints just to help myself.

I have stated many times in the past the TSA is OP.

And when I hire another minion, if the TSA is changed, it can do nothing but hurt me.

All in the interest of fair play.

So lets see, TSA gives a nearly 50% bonus to STR and 3% regen.

STR increases damage and offers some minor defense, raises encumbrance, and is a must for any kind of tank.

The 3% regen (while smallish) is only available via one item, and is capable of resurrecting minions that have been killed.

In addition, the TSA offers some level of actual armor, while not as good as the MCM.

--

The BoE however has no unique ability, and merely offers massive (I didn't say it wasn't unbalanced, I just said it MIGHT not be broken) bonuses to stats that are by all accounts second tier.

Outside of evasion (which is a pale shadow of it's former self) bonuses to skills are laughable in terms of raw power. Even evasion only effects tanks, and even then can't prevent tanks from hitting all the time. Dexterity is as unloved as any stat in game, I think a 300% bonus to it is a welcome and useful choice.

I REALLY like the BoE as it is, it adds flavor we surely need to the game. Heck it's just plain nifty all the way around.

Do not forget the BoE gives 5% magic bonus, more than even the SB.

It also gives AC, the same as the TSA.

But 300% bonus to skills and dexterity?

Unless you wear one as a tank yourself, fuggetaboutit.

And 300% bonus to evasion will get it to neuter ALL your opponents PTH.

And with 300% to dexterity a mage only needs to train 1/3 the dex it would have to to be invulnerable to tanks. All the while getting a bonus to spells.

300% in too much bonus for 1 item. 300% bonus to PL is quite a lot, saving xp for other skills/spells. Or what about BL. Saves a whole lot of xp if you have to train 1/3rd the xp you normally would have to. Or what about UC? Seems to give a bigger bonus than the CGI. But what the hell, let us abuse this item for fun!!! What is 300% between friends?

And forget about being a single minion tank using a tattoo. With 300% dexterity bonus on opposing tanks, you will never get a hit in. Unless you count only your PTH which can be eliminated with evasion and the BoE superboost. All the time they get multiple hits on you. Yea, well balanced?

But single minions are unloved in CB anyway. Why help them out?

I am shocked anyone really thinks this item as it is now is good for CB and balanced. Just stunned.

Novice: do you think that a 2.5M level team should be able to beat Vectoidz?

Basically if the BOE stands as it currently is, the TOA is done.

The dexterity and skill advantage is just too great and gives so much free xp and free MPR to not use it.

The PTH be dammed, since vs suped up evasion you will not likely get PTh hits anyway and CB will become a Dexterity game.

But some of use love the item just the way it is. Why?

Glaring bugs like this kill any game. If the BoE stays this way much longer, the game will basically break down and people will either get a BoE asap or quit.

This needs fixing, and quickly. VERY quickly.

GF,

I appreciate the support, but as Novice stated the Sky is not completely falling.

However, if this bug is not fixed soon, more and more people will abuse it and those who choose not to, or cannot, will find themselves at quite a disadvantage. With lower cash and xp rewards.

Again, for all the chat of bring new players into the game and to increase support for it, it is crazy that there are so many bugs. And a couple that just skew gameplay.

How will new players want to stay knowing there are large bugs that go unfixed for a long time?

I think my post certainly allowed for some balancing of the bonus, but you seem to have ignored that Ranger. The slash and burn nature of this post completely ignores the usefulness of the BoE.

ArTitan: if someone is going to specialize as much as Vectoidz has they might end up vulnerable... however I've yet to see any 2.5m mpr teams beating him, and would be impressed if I did.

"I appreciate the support, but as Novice stated the Sky is not completely falling."

The only reason CB is still relatively stable is the fact that most users aren't spending USD, which is really the best way to get a BoE.

I agree that the sky isn't falling. But CB operates on a relatively "slow" scale, so when I say the BoE needs fixing, I mean that it needs fixing before Fall begins. If it isn't fixed, eventually it will become a necessity, and you will either use a BoE (or 4) or quit out of frustration.

I know I am already very frustrated when I see there are users I can not kill who are exploiting the BoE bug.

Balancing?

I read this: "Dexterity is as unloved as any stat in game, I think a 300% bonus to it is a welcome and useful choice. " and see no balancing statements.

I read that you like it just as it is.

Dexterity is unloved by mages, but I love it as a tank. It is just that dex is not understood well. It is extremely important for a tank. And a few hundred thousand in either direction can change battles. If mages would train it to avoid tanks, they would know its real power. But no mage tries, as they whine about getting hit just training evasion.

In the recent dodgeball tournament, dexterity was a major factor in who won. More than even strength. Due to low + weapons. At higher levels, PTH is important but BTH and dexterity certainly matters.

Balance it to 1% per +, ok, thats good. Keep the magic stable at 5%, fine.

But 250+% for a 4M upgraded one, stupid.

And a 2.5M character training dexterity, evasion and a bit of strength using the BOE will have enough bonus xp/Mpr to beat Vectoidz easily. It has not been done yet.

"I know I am already very frustrated when I see there are users I can not kill who are exploiting the BoE bug. :"

Me too!!

I did refer to the bonus as "massive" and "I didn't say it wasn't unbalanced, I just said it MIGHT not be broken". I think both of those allow for some adjustments.

Well nov, I could get 10M DX and 20+ M evasion with a 2.5M character.