heavy AC mage? (in General)


three4thsforsaken April 29 2009 6:30 PM EDT

With a boost to base AC of the MC the upgrade curve looks much nicer.

How do you feel about a heavy AC mage? How would you equip one?

I'm thinking full wall gear replacing TGs with NSCs and the AC with MC and then training AP of course.

At that point will the reduction be worth the penalties?

QBOddBird April 29 2009 6:37 PM EDT

I'm just about to run a heavy AC mage.

Just look at Rogue, and then imagine a 2nd minion with PL, RoBF, MgS, and AoI.

three4thsforsaken April 29 2009 6:40 PM EDT

How is GA treating you?

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] April 29 2009 6:40 PM EDT

AMF bait... Just imagine being trapped in a can getting hit by your own DD.

QBRanger April 29 2009 6:41 PM EDT

Someone did something similar.

Heavy CoC mage training all CoC and a 2nd minion with PL and all AS.

QBOddBird April 29 2009 6:42 PM EDT

GA should treat me OK once I've buffed my AC up much higher. Most of my armor is very, very low NW.

novice: on a 2 minion team, with 2/3 or 3/4 EXP going into CoC, do you think it will be AMF bait? With all that AC gear on, I'm currently at:

Cone of Cold 1,930,000 1,930,000 264,924

The CoI can only go up, and the NSC will work wonders against opponent AMF...

QBOddBird April 29 2009 6:42 PM EDT

That was Nerevas, Ranger, and it too worked very well :)

three4thsforsaken April 29 2009 6:44 PM EDT

Well, I know Atomic Boy did it way back when with conundrum. But it has a very strong reliance on the ToE.

I dunno. Jon seemed to had killed AC. I'm not sure why. Maybe walls were a problem in the past, but doesn't mean you have to nerf them into the floor.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] April 29 2009 7:12 PM EDT

OB: you'll be taking millions in AMF return with no way of reducing damage

three4thsforsaken April 29 2009 7:19 PM EDT

Novice, a heavy AC mage is no more susceptible to AMF than a regular mage. Besides, as people are moving to DM, amf is become less of a problem and less of a stat people invest heavily in.

QBJohnnywas April 29 2009 7:22 PM EDT

The problem you used to face with a heavy AC mage is that your DD spell was reduced by the penalties, but AMF damage taken is based on DD without penalties. I'm presuming nothing has changed in that respect?

Wizard'sFirstRule April 29 2009 7:26 PM EDT

Ranger, what is the point of the second minion with PL and AS? Isn't it better as a single minion with HP + CoC?

three4thsforsaken April 29 2009 7:27 PM EDT

tattoo holder.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] April 29 2009 7:31 PM EDT

I was never privy to what Johnny is talking about, but the penalties are what kills you. The only real counter a mage has to AMF is more DD, and anything lowering that is a real albatross. CoC mages typically need at least as much HP as they have DD (I'm talking real HP, not PL based) in order to really take advantage of the massive power of Cone of Cold. While the current swing may be towards DM, AMF will always be a part of any top strat in my opinion, unless Jon lets ranged run completely wild again.

QBJohnnywas April 29 2009 7:36 PM EDT

What I used to come up against, and I've run a few variants on the heavy mage over the years, was AMF cooking me like I'd just been chucked into a microwave, but a hugely invested in DD spell doing nothing more than a fizzle thanks to AC penalties. AMF was calculated before penalties. If it was calculated after penalties then heavy mage is...somewhat easier.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] April 29 2009 7:42 PM EDT

So You get a .xx based on your DD level after penalties but return based on your level before penalties... YIKES that does sound like something Jon would do.

QBOddBird April 29 2009 7:50 PM EDT

Either way, I have NSC to deal with AMF, and my CoI is only +14, it has room both for upgrading and naming...

I think the heavy mage is very viable, though the nerfing of AC makes the "heavy" part of it less effective.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] April 29 2009 7:57 PM EDT

I know you're not expecting the world OB, but I can't let one of these threads go by without warning folks...

The NSC (regardless of what some folks say) have some pretty severe limitations, an AMF at even half your DD will still burn you.

three4thsforsaken April 29 2009 8:05 PM EDT

But if enough DD is invested a 12% penality to DD isn't going to make a difference between a big AMF backlash and a small one.

But other than AMF potentially frying you, how would such a strat fair?

Eliteofdelete [Battle Royale] April 29 2009 8:09 PM EDT

AC doesn't reduce the amount of damage taken by AMF?

Little Anthony April 29 2009 10:19 PM EDT

i have AC mage. Very nice set up. Haven't fail me yet.

three4thsforsaken April 29 2009 11:06 PM EDT

Does that AC effectively reduce GA?

QBOddBird April 29 2009 11:10 PM EDT

AC works on GA just the same as it works on any other damage.

BadFish April 29 2009 11:12 PM EDT

I tried making a Heavy CoC Mage in Oblivion and it didn't really work. Spellmaking doesn't lend itself to making spells with a Conical area of effect.

I can only assume this means the heavy CoC mage is also not a viable option on CB.

three4thsforsaken April 29 2009 11:15 PM EDT

"AC works on GA just the same as it works on any other damage. "

Evidence shows that AC is less effective on reducing GA than expected. I need to know at what level does AC actually start having a significant impact. Do I need an armor set like Hatch to see results or can I get away with 300 or so AC?

Cube April 29 2009 11:41 PM EDT

AC works great versus GA; it was even more amazing with the old ToE.

For GA it works like the normal percentage against physical damage.

Colonel Custard April 30 2009 1:01 AM EDT

"an AMF at even half your DD will still burn you."

According to the wiki, an AMF at half your DD level would be about .31 AMF effect. Put on a decent pair of NSCs, you can knock that down to .18 or so.
Not to mention that DDs are boosted better than EOs like AMF.

Cube April 30 2009 1:57 AM EDT

DDs don't get boosted on a heavy mage.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 30 2009 4:50 AM EDT

Heh, this has motivated me to try out a Heavy Signle SG mage. ;)

The DD Damage goodness of CoC, with less AMF backlash. Using AP as a skill to lessen penalties. SS as an ED for more AC.

Seems to be working nicely so far. Just need more ENC to equip more AC items.

Adminedyit April 30 2009 5:01 AM EDT

Would the BoE have a decent enough upgrade curve to give AC, it gives a bonus to magic so there'd be no penalty there i don't know how it would stack up compared to the MC though

QBJohnnywas April 30 2009 5:03 AM EDT

"QBGentlemanLoser 4:50 AM EDT

Heh, this has motivated me to try out a Heavy Signle SG mage. ;) "

Go on, give him some dex. You know you want to.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 30 2009 5:43 AM EDT

LoL! Never! ;)

As for BoE, maybe. But I'm considering whether to drop the MC/Adam for a TSA. Whether the loss in AC s made up by the regen. :/

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 30 2009 5:44 AM EDT

More thoughts on the BoE. I suppose it depends on how AP 1/2 penalties work.

Does anyone know if it halves the penalties for each peice individually, or if it's like Junction and sums the bonuses and penalties, and would then halves any penalties that are left. :/

Untouchable April 30 2009 7:19 AM EDT

to me AC seems to have little effect on reducing damage :p

Cube April 30 2009 10:28 AM EDT

You need large numbers for it to be effective. 60 AC will reduce damage by 10pct; 600 AC will make you immune to physical damage.

QBRanger April 30 2009 10:51 AM EDT

"More thoughts on the BoE. I suppose it depends on how AP 1/2 penalties work. "

The Breastplate of Expertise does not have Armor Proficiency anymore.

Rawr April 30 2009 11:00 AM EDT

Primary effect: Gives a flat 8% bonus to DX and Skills.
Secondary effect: Gives a flat 5% to Direct Damage Spells, Enchant Offense Spells and Enchant Defense Spells.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 30 2009 12:13 PM EDT

To clarify, I was wondering about how trained AP (which I feel is integral to a heavy Mage) interacted with the BoE and other items that gave Magic Bonuses/Penalties.

If wearing a Pair of AG, BoE, CML and MS for example, are the penalties on the CML and MS halved then everything summed. Or as the total Bonuses and Penalties summed, then like Junction, if anything left is negative, it's halved.

three4thsforsaken April 30 2009 4:22 PM EDT

I would guess it's just the sum of the half of penalties. I don't know why it would be otherwise.
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