T38: Undead Bosses strategy talks (in Contests)


AdminShade April 29 2009 6:31 PM EDT

A mage with 20 HP and EC effect of 11.612 and
A melee tank with 8,528 HP DX and ST doing around 600 damage to a 50 AC minion
Basically we need a good DX and ST advantage to live...
Zombie Mage cast Ethereal Chains on all enemy Minions (11612)
Melee Hits / Blows / Avg Damage 0 / 0 / 0 38 / 50 / 641 (for 50 round battle against 100 ST / 100 DX minion of mine)



Strategy talks:
The mage we can kill quite easily. 20 HP is very easy to kill.
The tank however, has both a ST as well as DX advantage on us.
For us to have the same ST and DX as it, we need about 20k DX and ST trained. (the st basically is to do damage.



We also need to do about 10k of damage in 50 rounds, without taking too much damage to die from. For me that's 20k atm.

So for me, I'd need to do 200 damage every round, while only taking 400 or less. Well that's not going to cut it.

While taking 600 damage a round, I'd need to kill it in less than 33 rounds. Try to take in a bit of randomness, within 25 rounds. That would require me to deal 400 damage a round, continuously.

More thoughts to be derived soon...



Oh yes!


Our strenghts: we have Ranged capabilities. We should be able to kill the enchanter zombie in 1 round, leaving a maximum of 4 rounds to deal some damage to the melee zombie before it can hit us.

Improving the odds:
meat shields. Put something in front of your damage dealers whether it be a useless minion or a familiar.
Additional HP (or AS when we'd reach tier 4 before encountering)
EC (when we'd have tier 4)
more AC (can do this reasonably easy but better perhaps to spend on weaponry
more + to hit, on both ranged and melee weapons to have a better chance to hit :)

AdminShade April 29 2009 6:49 PM EDT

Boss 2: Horde

4 minions, all 20 HP.
the 3 'less'ers have a nifty decay trained of about 120k each.
the zombie has a level ~28k Fireball trained.


Best way to kill this one: big enough FB to deal 20 damage to 4 minions in R1 ranged and a big enough AMF.

Things which help:
AC as usual
bigger AMF
more minions
familiar

QBOddBird April 29 2009 6:50 PM EDT

Just a bow or sling would do it too, only has to hit for 20 damage/round.

Rawr April 29 2009 6:52 PM EDT

wouldn't the best way to kill that boss is to tier4 then just train an MM?

AdminShade April 29 2009 6:58 PM EDT

Boss 3: Zombie Leader

Hit Points: 1,562,976
Strength: 1,250,019
Dexterity: 1,562,977
Skill: Bloodlust

A Blade of Thuringwethil
An Elven Long Bow

Net Worth: $2,530,931

2.5 mil NW implies not too strong weapons, how to kill we don't know yet, but we'll figure it out ;)

Things which help:
Ethereal Chains
Decay
Evasion (possibly)

rrowland April 29 2009 6:58 PM EDT

Tier4 and then ~300 fireball actually :)

QBOddBird April 29 2009 7:00 PM EDT

EC wouldn't be enough...I'm thinking massive Evasion, DD Familiar, and multiple Decays.

AdminShade April 29 2009 7:07 PM EDT

Boss 4: Nightmares

Undead Strength:
Hit Points: 20
Giant Strength: 4.2 mil ST added by it.

Tank:
Hit Points: 250,000
Strength: 4.2 mil (through the GS)
Dexterity: 20
Archery, Dispel Magic

An Elven Long Bow of Net Worth: $26,918,229
All we know atm is that the bow has around +75


Slayer claims it being able to be beat by a ~50k MPR character, 2 minions and some weapon... we doubt it ;p

AdminShade April 29 2009 7:17 PM EDT

Possible tips for last Boss:

DX advantage: having 100 DX already is 5:1 which removes a lot of his hits.
Evasion: removing his + to hit makes survivors survive longer ;)
Decay: slicing into the HP of the tank does wonders, or at least, while in melee


Things which do nothing:
DM: can't be trained high enough to hurt the GS
EC: same, doesn't affect the ST much(, though it could lower the DX to 0?

AdminShade April 29 2009 7:52 PM EDT

Walk-through for Boss 2: Horde

Zombie's Fireball Maximum Damage versus 1 minion: ~4.5k
Zombie's Fireball maximum damage versus 2 minions: ~1.5k
Damage will be less with 3, 4 and 5 minions.

This makes you need at least 20k HP on 1 minion and able to deal 20 damage per round to win against this one.

Things which help for sure:
Any ranged weapon while having enough DX
Sling of Death
level ~1050+ Fireball (should deal 20 damage per minion) in round 1 of ranged.

{Wookie}-Jir.Vr- April 29 2009 9:06 PM EDT

Nightmares is going to be tricky.

QBRanger April 30 2009 1:04 AM EDT

Massive evasion, 100 dex and RBF.

Just enough evasion to get his +75 on the Elb at 0. No idea if it is possible at 50k MPR.

RBF over 45 rounds should do enough damage to kill 250k hp if near MTL.

{Wookie}-Jir.Vr- April 30 2009 1:07 AM EDT

Even with 75 EVA it would still hit one or two times. Which would be a one shot KO to the EVA minion = GG

QBRanger April 30 2009 1:08 AM EDT

How would it hit?

No dex BTh with a 100 dexterity.

Evasion cripples its PTH.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] April 30 2009 1:11 AM EDT

You would need a bit more than 100 dex to eliminate dex cth, but ranger is right. That would be one way to beat it. Actually all you need to make sure it would is decay. Around 500 dex base decay, RoBF and max evasion would probably win.

QBRanger April 30 2009 1:13 AM EDT

Yes, with a base decay, almost any size RBF would work well.

QBRanger April 30 2009 1:15 AM EDT

I think the maximum effect evasion can be from a 50k MPR character is about (30).

If you can live through the missile rounds, then the penalty from melee rounds will make it easy to finish him off.

But living through the 5 missile rounds will be a problem, even with max evasion on a single minion.

QBOddBird April 30 2009 1:25 AM EDT

Still, (30) Evasion means he only has a 45% chance to hit.

With 3 decays and a familiar, you could potentially get lucky and make it to melee to kill him.

QBRanger April 30 2009 1:28 AM EDT

No, the (30) evasion is if all your xp is in evasion on 1 minion.

{Wookie}-Jir.Vr- April 30 2009 1:29 AM EDT

I'll do a little testing here as soon as an admin unretires my character. I'll be aiming to prove 75 EVA isn't enough -.-j

QBOddBird April 30 2009 1:32 AM EDT

right Ranger, which is why it would be up to the familiar to kill him.

QBRanger April 30 2009 1:35 AM EDT

How will a familiar do 250k damage before missile rounds end?

By that time, each minion should be dead.

With 4 minions, and xp dilution you may only have a (20) evasion effect on that minion.

Make 4 evasion minions each with (20) and you may have 1 live to melee which may do the trick, but it is not 100%, maybe not even 10%.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] April 30 2009 1:43 AM EDT

So that you know what you are working with. I have 50k mpr right now and I have 90k total levels or thereabouts.

rrowland April 30 2009 4:35 AM EDT

rrowland defeated Nightmares after 24 rounds of combat
Physical
rrowland Nightmares
Ranged Hits / Shots / Avg Damage 6 / 6 / 1,639 0 / 5 / 0
Melee Hits / Blows / Avg Damage 32 / 32 / 7,762 0 / 10 / 0

Magical
rrowland Nightmares
Enchantments Cast 0 4
DD Cast / Avg Damage 0 / 0 0 / 0
Rewards
Cash (total) $1,081
XP (per minion) 818

Bonuses
Challenge bonus 100%
Tournament bonus 300%
You have $151,854.

Play-by-play:
Off On On non-win

Post-battle stats
One
Experience 2,663
Hit Points 25,000
Strength 13,200
Dexterity 60,363
Armor Class 24
Unarmed Combat 500
Melee Base to-Hit 50
Melee Bonus to-Hit 30
Ranged Base to-Hit 90
Ranged Bonus to-Hit 4
Total Evasion 42
Damage Inflicted 258,241

Play-by-play
rrowland Nightmares
Tank cast Dispel Magic on all enemy Minions (337)
Undead Strength cast Giant Strength on all friendly Minions (4191843)
Tank cast Steel Skin on all friendly Minions (2967209)
Ranged Combat
One struck deep into Undead Strength [1983]
Tank's shot flew past One
R.I.P. Undead Strength

One shot Tank [1513]
Tank's shot went wide of One

One shot Tank [1593]
Tank's shot flew past One

One hit Tank [1860]
Tank's shot went wide of One

One hit Tank [1375]
One hit Tank [1511]
Tank's shot flew past One

Melee Combat
One bruised Tank [8426]
Tank's shot went wide of One

One tapped Tank [8820]
One bruised Tank [7592]

One tapped Tank [9617]
One tapped Tank [6088]
Tank's shot ricocheted near One

One bruised Tank [9223]
One bruised Tank [6547]

One bruised Tank [7172]
Tank overshot One

One tapped Tank [7358]

One bruised Tank [7899]
One bruised Tank [9503]
Tank's shot ricocheted near One

One bruised Tank [7447]
One tapped Tank [6079]

One tapped Tank [9279]
One bruised Tank [7196]
Tank's shot went wide of One

One tapped Tank [7296]
One bruised Tank [9177]

One tapped Tank [7834]
One tapped Tank [8833]
Tank's shot went wide of One

One bruised Tank [6271]
One bruised Tank [6349]

One bruised Tank [6236]
One tapped Tank [7084]
Tank's shot ricocheted near One

One bruised Tank [6114]

One beat Tank [9737]
One fractured Tank [8009]
Tank's shot went wide of One

One crunched Tank [7131]

One fractured Tank [9742]
One crunched Tank [9154]
Tank overshot One

One beat Tank [5980]
One beat Tank [8598]

One crushed Tank [6615]
Tank's shot ricocheted near One
R.I.P. Tank

{Wookie}-Jir.Vr- April 30 2009 3:44 PM EDT

I'm confused how he isn't hitting you, how high is your UC?

To get a raw EVA of 75 you need almost 5 million xp into it... 4.8m is 74 effect raw...

:S

rrowland April 30 2009 3:47 PM EDT

I have 15 UC from HGs and 10 from my combat gi. It gives me 41 evasion total.

rrowland April 30 2009 3:48 PM EDT

42*

Post-battle stats
One
Experience 2,663
Hit Points 25,000
Strength 13,200
Dexterity 60,363
Armor Class 24
Unarmed Combat 500
Melee Base to-Hit 50
Melee Bonus to-Hit 30
Ranged Base to-Hit 90
Ranged Bonus to-Hit 4
Total Evasion 42
Damage Inflicted 258,241

{Wookie}-Jir.Vr- April 30 2009 3:54 PM EDT

So where did +75 come from?

rrowland April 30 2009 3:57 PM EDT

I don't know, I never said 75. I think everyone thinks the bow is +75 or something.

QBRanger April 30 2009 3:57 PM EDT

In chat, Slayer acknowledged the bow was +75.

QBRanger April 30 2009 3:58 PM EDT

Does everyone need to defeat the boss or just 1 person?

{Wookie}-Jir.Vr- April 30 2009 3:59 PM EDT

Everyone needs to defeat the boss.

rrowland April 30 2009 4:00 PM EDT

I'm not sure of this, but...

So it's got 100 CTH + 75 PTH = 175 chance to hit?

Then my 42 evasion brings it down to 132?

Then the maximum dex advantage applies? Is that 20%? In that case his hit chance would be reduced to 26.4%?

QBRanger April 30 2009 4:03 PM EDT

No, since your dexterity is far above that of the boss, he gets 0 BTH.

His only PTH is from his bow of which you take away 42.

So, aside from the penalties to hit in the early missile rounds, which we do not know exactly, he has at most a 75-42% chance to hit in round 5 of missile. Or 33%.

That is why sometimes you win and others you lose.

When he gets to melee, he gets a -60% to hit. Which takes his 75% down below your 42%, or he cannot hit you in melee.

QBRanger April 30 2009 4:04 PM EDT

Considering RR did it with a CGI and HG, I doubt everyone can duplicate his feat.

rrowland April 30 2009 4:04 PM EDT

Ah, I noticed that when I lose it's always a hit on the fifth round of ranged, and it's about 50/50.

rrowland April 30 2009 4:20 PM EDT

Once you get to melee, you only need 15 evasion to be un-hittable by him then?

We could retrain the main minion to 15 evasion, enough dex to take base hit to 0% and the rest in magic missile, and put him in the back of 3 new minions. Our front 3 minions would be trained enough dex to take base hit to 0% and the rest in evasion. If possible, the last minion would also have a steel familiar.

QBRanger April 30 2009 4:47 PM EDT

But rounds 1-5 of missile combat may kill your minions aside from the one with any evasion.

+75 PTh can still hit.

AdminShade April 30 2009 4:51 PM EDT

What everyone else would need is 1 minion with either a high UC or Evasion trained and put in front. and have another (main damage dealer) with 15+ Evasion trained.

I just tested with 15 Evasion, Tank still hits me for about 2 times out of 23 in Melee, that's about 9%.

rrowland April 30 2009 4:52 PM EDT

Well 3 of the 5 missile rounds can be used to sacrifice the first 3 minions. If all 3 have pure evasion you should have a pretty good chance of dodging the first 2 ranged rounds, right?

It doesn't need to be 100%, just enough to succeed once in the 10 tries you get.

{Wookie}-Jir.Vr- April 30 2009 5:03 PM EDT

Or you could just train a high enough EVA to dodge him all the time.

rrowland April 30 2009 5:05 PM EDT

That would be 75.

AdminShade April 30 2009 5:14 PM EDT

Now have 16 Evasion, he still hits me 5 out of 23 attacks in melee. Sounds like there is something wrong here.

rrowland and I now think his bow is +85 instead of +75...

{Wookie}-Jir.Vr- April 30 2009 5:18 PM EDT

I trained an EVA of 17, and he still hits me many many many times lol. :S

~10k dex to go along with it. So in the first rounds of ranged I have an Eva of 40.8 and he still hits me almost every single time. :| Hmm... it shouldn't be a problem if we unlock another tier, but as it stands if we ran into nightmares today I don't know if I could beat him... maybe... *shrug*

AdminShade April 30 2009 5:20 PM EDT

Your dex is too low for another boss to deal with atm, (without tier 4)

Your evasion of ~41 in ranged also is not enough to make him miss much in ranged, seeing as he has a 100% chance to hit there at least...

QBRanger April 30 2009 5:20 PM EDT

How would unlocking the next tier help you?

AdminShade April 30 2009 5:22 PM EDT

More possibilities to train, DD, EO, ED :)

i.e. we could set up a few minions with high eva and base decay to make the fight go a bit faster possibly :) (my thought at least)

{Wookie}-Jir.Vr- April 30 2009 5:24 PM EDT

Simple, I would retrain the 10k dex into EVA, Train a low EC to give me the full dex advantage, train enough haste to give my minion full dex/eva ration (60%).

AdminShade April 30 2009 5:29 PM EDT

Ehm, train low EC? We're not allowed to train a low EC before tier 4 remember. You've got to make it without ;)

{Wookie}-Jir.Vr- April 30 2009 5:30 PM EDT

How would unlocking the next tier help you?

--QBRanger, 5:20 PM EDT

I was responding to what I would to do win if tier 4 was unlocked :)

AdminShade April 30 2009 5:33 PM EDT

oh :)

QBRanger April 30 2009 5:39 PM EDT

Does Haste help in determining the evasion/dex ratio?

Or is it just prebattle calculated?

IE does EC lower your dex and evasion if you have some evasion dexterity based?

AdminShade April 30 2009 5:41 PM EDT

hmmm, hard to say.

With only 20k DX (all pure trained though) I was able to defeat Living Dead. the EC he is talking about perhaps isn't for Living Dead...

otherwise it wouldn't be a small one but a 10k effect one...

QBRanger April 30 2009 5:44 PM EDT

Shade,

Just asking in general. Not only for this T.

Kefeck [BlackSmith] April 30 2009 5:45 PM EDT

I can beat both horde and living dead atm, not sure if that is relevant. =x.

{Wookie}-Jir.Vr- April 30 2009 6:16 PM EDT

I believe that EC does lower dex/evasion, so to answer your question "Yes" :P

I could be wrong though.

{Wookie}-Jir.Vr- April 30 2009 6:20 PM EDT

Up to 40%. If your EC lowers enemy dex below their evasion, it makes evasion function at only 60%.

I would *HOPE* that this isn't calculated pre-battle, but I have never tested it.

AdminShade May 5 2009 6:02 AM EDT

2 bosses left which are critical. How to tackle them finally?

AdminShade May 6 2009 1:25 AM EDT

Ok we're against Zombie Leader... isn't there amy way we can kill it?

Evasion minions with Decay or something?

blackshadowshade May 6 2009 7:27 AM EDT

I don't think evasion will really cut it. FYI, against my large JKF (renamed to Kano to please the spellchecker):

Hatefer cast Ethereal Chains on all enemy Minions (32)
blackshadowshade found no valid targets on which to cast Antimagic Field
blackshadowshade cast Guardian Angel on all friendly Minions (?)


Ranged Combat
Zombie Leader's shot went wide of Kano

Zombie Leader's shot went wide of Kano

Zombie Leader hit Kano [29711]
Kano's Guardian Angel smote Zombie Leader (17826)

Zombie Leader hit Kano [27285]
Kano's Guardian Angel smote Zombie Leader (16371)

Zombie Leader's shot went wide of Kano

Melee Combat
Kano fractured Zombie Leader [305870]
Hatefer's Decay hit Zombie Leader [611454]
blackshadowshade touches Zombie Leader [387941]
Zombie Leader scratched Kano [72956]
Zombie Leader draws strength from his weapon! [14591]
Kano's Guardian Angel smote Zombie Leader (43773)

Kano crunched Zombie Leader [170678]
Kano pulverized Zombie Leader [204275]
Zombie Leader scratched Kano [39421]
Zombie Leader draws strength from his weapon! [7884]
Kano's Guardian Angel smote Zombie Leader (23652)
R.I.P. Zombie Leader

blackshadowshade May 6 2009 7:28 AM EDT

BTW, the JKF has an AC of 104.

blackshadowshade May 6 2009 7:44 AM EDT

Oh yes. The JKF has an evasion of 70 and a DX of 1.4M.

AdminShade May 6 2009 10:23 AM EDT

Hmm, too bad then, end of the line...

blackshadowshade May 6 2009 3:32 PM EDT

Out of curiosity, now that I've seen Nem's posts, wouldn't GA help to mop up after the four Decays have hit?

AdminTitan May 6 2009 3:34 PM EDT

No, b/c you don't have any HP.

blackshadowshade May 6 2009 3:38 PM EDT

You need to have SOME HP on Minion 1. Plus, you've possibly got untrained XP on your 20 XP minions. What's the best way to spend this XP? Surely not stats or EOs. That leaves EDs, and the obvious one is GA.

Sure, it doesn't help much, but it might take a round or two off the battle, which could be enough to swing a win out of a loss.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] May 6 2009 3:43 PM EDT

What you can do to help add a bit more to the strat is have on of the enchanters train AS you cant have this too large though, otherwise his BoTH will gain enough health to keep him alive after your finishing hit hits. Then the other trains GA to take out the drain. This will give you a bit more hp onto the wall which is where it is needed.

AdminShade May 6 2009 3:58 PM EDT

shadowshade: ED's will not help you, look at the size of his DM...

You either need real HP, or nothing at all.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] May 6 2009 4:00 PM EDT

he has no dm, I think you are mistaking him for nightmares
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