discussion: pth > evasion (in Debates)

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 4 2009 2:44 PM EDT

i feel that there is no reason to choose any other weapon for melee and no other familiar.

i understood the 100 bth with the former evasion mechanic, but under the current setup i feel that 100 bth is just too strong.

evasion could also be changed to somehow allow extra evasion left over after negating pth eat into bth. i really don't feel that evasion is out of whack in regards to any other weapons / familiars than those utilizing 100 bth.

QBRanger May 4 2009 2:54 PM EDT

There is no melee weapon with 100 BTH.

1H weapons are 60 and 2H are 40.

The only 100 BTH weapon in the entire game is the ELB, which does not get its full 100 BTh at least until the 4th round of missile combat.

Averaged over the 6 possible missile rounds, the BTH is closer to about 70 I suspect. But I cannot prove it.

When the ELB and HF get to melee, their BTH is only 40%, with 40% dexterity on the minion/familiar using it.

Now, as to your 2nd point. If evasion stays as it currently is, I think that is not a bad idea. However, I would not make DBs have the same property.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 4 2009 3:05 PM EDT

so to beat 100 bth teams you need to last until melee to have a chance. i think the real question then is what can you use to last into melee other than hp or ac? (the reason i leave those out is they were always negated as counters in many of the robf debates, rightly so)

Cube May 4 2009 3:20 PM EDT

Shouldn't this be worded is the Elbow too powerful? What other 100 bth items are there? I haven't been fighting for a while, so I can't provide any insight as to what I think is balanced. It just seems silly to talk about 100 bth items, when there is only one.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 4 2009 3:24 PM EDT

the hal uses 100 bth as well. many do think it is too powerful and my conclusion is that it is the 100 bth that makes it so. i hope that explains it!

QBRanger May 4 2009 3:34 PM EDT

So if the ELB and HF (which uses an ELB equivalent) were 70 BTH that would make everything better? For 1 less hit every 3 missile rounds?

However, again, it is not 100 BTH for every round. Averaged over all 6 rounds it is more like 70 BTH. I see nobody addressing that.

Again, I would have no problem lowering the BTH to 70 if there were no penalties in the early missile rounds.

As for ways around the ELB here are a few:

Multiple minions
GA-works really well vs archers
Killing them off fast with ELB/MM/FB/SOD
Exbow/Axbow -Another thread as to their uberness
Evasion, not to stop all hits but lower them enough to live to melee
Ethereal Chains, to reduce their str and ENC and lower hits via lower dexterity

The power of the HF lies in the PTH it gets. My 8M HF gets +251 and I agree it s a bit high. It has little to do with the 100 BTH stated on the battle report, which is not true averaged over the entire battle.

Kefeck [FARM ME] May 4 2009 3:39 PM EDT

so to beat 100 bth teams you need to last until melee to have a chance.

ex bow? Meh nevermind ranger beat me too it. ^.^

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 4 2009 3:48 PM EDT

i am using several of those and the evasion just isn't enough to make me live till melee. so once again if evasion is the main counter and it works well against everything else, even high pth weapons, i am left with 100 bth weapons.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 4 2009 3:56 PM EDT

i guess it could be the pth though. you have a big melee weapon ranger, do you get multiple hits on me with that?

if it is the plus 200 pth items that are causing the issues then does evasion need to scale differently then to make it easier to get to where you can take an item to base to hit? if that was done then i would also think melee and some ranged weapons would need to be increased on their base to hit.

QBRanger May 4 2009 4:00 PM EDT

The problem, like with how evasion was back when, is that if you titrate to the top 2 or 3 weapons, where does that leave everyone else.

But yet one more time, the elb is 100 BTH only for 3 rounds. The first 3 rounds are far less.

So in reality is it not 100 BTH averaged.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 4 2009 4:40 PM EDT

unlike in the past though, you couldn't go below bth. so it could never be immunity even if the top evasion in the game was enough to negate the top pth.

so why shouldn't evasions scale change then and we adjust bth higher for melee weapons and the lowest ranged?

QBRanger May 4 2009 4:54 PM EDT

Because missile has only 6 rounds and melee 44.

But again, and please address this point, the 100 BTH of the ELB is not 100 BTH for all missile rounds.

It is that for only the last 3 rounds, it is less for the first 3.

If you want to lower the ELB BTH, fine, just eliminate the penalties for the early rounds.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 4 2009 4:59 PM EDT

just out of curiosity, when you say that you thing ranged bth is down to an average of 70, are you taking into account evasions increased effectiveness in certain ranged rounds?

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] May 4 2009 5:01 PM EDT

"the elb is 100 BTH only for 3 rounds. The first 3 rounds are far less."

I could have sworn there was a penalty for round 4 too.

QBRanger May 4 2009 5:04 PM EDT


I am typing against no evasion using minions. I hit less in rounds 1-3 than rounds 5 and 6.

Never really looked closely at round 4. Perhaps Artemis is right.

And I forgot about evasion's boost in the early missile rounds. Lowering the effective total TH.

I think 100 BTH in the overall scheme of missile rounds is ok. Change the penalties and we can chat more about it.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] May 4 2009 5:06 PM EDT

It would be nice to see the SoD get a little love, as they not only have 60pth, but they also have greater penalties in rounds 1 and 2.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 4 2009 5:11 PM EDT

i would love to see if the evasion boost is keeping me from being hit in the first few rounds or if it is the ranged modifiers or a combination.

this is another reason i dislike the mechanic as it is now, there are too many variables (and changes over time) that we really cannot understand or test how it works.

in my opinion it would be best to do away with evasion and ranged round modifiers. adjust the bth and then scale evasion differently if needed. it has gotten overly complex!

QBRanger May 4 2009 5:31 PM EDT

I think the SoD has plenty of advantages to outweight is 40 less PTH vs the ELB.

1) No skill needed. Meaning more xp towards strength, or DM, or dext.
Even freeing up that slot for evasion or UC or PL etc...

2) Damages all minions.

I think that is a fair tradeoff for the 40 PTH.

QBRanger May 4 2009 5:32 PM EDT

Of course you know what is needed:

A missile weapon artist!!!

three4thsforsaken May 4 2009 6:06 PM EDT

I don't understand why ELBs always hitting at least once is a bad thing. A ranged game is a very hard one to play right now, and a 100 BTH is one of the few things going for it right now.

It's too hard to invest in both a ranged weapon and a melee weapon, so I feel ranged damage is actually in a good place. It isn't a dominant strat atm but is still very viable. I like that.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 4 2009 6:11 PM EDT

"It isn't a dominant strat atm but is still very viable."

how do you define dominant then?

if they did just hit once that wouldn't be too bad. the ones that cause me problems are hitting twice in the latter ranged rounds and for massive damage.

my jiggy isn't too far away from ranger's hal about 1m levels to be exact. he gets 115 evasion effect. ranger says his hal's pth is over 200. i also use ec.

i would probably feel better if i thought that with another 1 million levels in my tat i would do better, but evasion just doesn't scale anywhere near where his pth does.

QBRanger May 4 2009 6:45 PM EDT

Well considering you get that 115 evasion multiplied in range surely helps.

And if your evasion equals my PTH, then I would never hit you in ranged, letting you beat me to a pulp in melee.

With a Jig you give up the missile rounds to concentrate on melee. And build your character to get there.

No matter that the reason I beat you is a 220M ELB.

QBOddBird May 4 2009 6:59 PM EDT

That part sounds like a problem with the rates at which familiars train their respective skills, though I don't think the Jig should naturally train enough Evasion to dodge a Hal's every shot.

And like Ranger said, he's got an enormous ELB - it's difficult to figure that into the argument given its size.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 4 2009 7:00 PM EDT

while it wouldn't have to be equal, the difference of 115 to 251 seems pretty damn insurmountable.

the bow definitely pushes you over the win line, but your hal does much more damage to me and will likely keep going in that direction. is the damage and pth mod on hals linear or logarithmic growth curve?

i guess it comes down to your post about evasion not being useless. while it reduces the hits i take from you, i still lose. since you yourself chose the term not as useless, that does seem to leave some room for improvement! ; )

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 4 2009 7:01 PM EDT

"That part sounds like a problem with the rates at which familiars train their respective skills, though I don't think the Jig should naturally train enough Evasion to dodge a Hal's every shot."

nor do i, but if you then throw ec and some walls in there, perhaps it should be closer? also should double hits occur even in later ranged rounds?

Sickone May 4 2009 7:21 PM EDT

dudemus, you beat me to a bloody pulp, and you used to beat me to a bloody pulp at half your current MPR.
I am using one of those "overpowered" 100 BTH ELBows myself.
It's "only" around 60 mil NW.

Sickone May 4 2009 7:24 PM EDT

To clarify, back when you used to beat me badly at about half your current MPR, I had no DM and a lot more HP/ST/DX.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 4 2009 7:30 PM EDT

i have already agreed that it is probably not the 100 bth. it is likely massively pumped pth and the hal's natural pth.

that is one reason i actually ran this strat, i thought it would do well naturally against elb and hal users and on weaker tats or no uber pth weapons it is fine.

so is the only counter to high ranged pth a bigger hal or bow? i thought that was the problem we had with the robf?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 4 2009 7:49 PM EDT

ranger, here is your list of things that could be used against high pth elbs & hals:

As for ways around the ELB here are a few:

Multiple minions ~ i have four

AC ~ 3 of my guys have 238 or so ac, i am building these up now that the ncb run is over

HP ~ after your dm, my as casts on my three guys for 1.25 million and that is also added to my jiggys hp bringing his to almost 5 million.

GA-works really well vs archers ~ i have nearly 50 million xp into this

Killing them off fast with ELB/MM/FB/SOD


Exbow/Axbow -Another thread as to their uberness

Evasion, not to stop all hits but lower them enough to live to melee ~ 115 level evasion on the jiggy

Ethereal Chains, to reduce their str and ENC and lower hits via lower dexterity ~ almost 50m xp into this as well.

i know i do not have all of them, but what i do have is pretty substantial in my mind.

what does my ec actually take your dex down to on your archer and your hal?

QBRanger May 4 2009 8:31 PM EDT

Vs Dude,

Minion Hal Wasp
Encumbrance 0.00 0.15
Hit Points -108,667 6,649,786
Strength 3,509,299 2,394,594
Dexterity 1,756,818 493,963
Armor Class 61 52
Total Evasion 105 89
Damage Inflicted 5,364,523 8,330,521

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 4 2009 9:17 PM EDT

so i have dex advantage as well:

Strength 2,636,893
Dexterity 5,273,787

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 4 2009 9:29 PM EDT

does having dex advantage only help in how many times i hit or does in come into play in keeping your opponent from hitting as often as well?

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] May 4 2009 9:31 PM EDT

"does having dex advantage only help in how many times i hit or does in come into play in keeping your opponent from hitting as often as well?"

Take his DX, divided by your DX, then multiply it by the bth to get the cth before the pth is added.

Colonel Custard [The Knighthood] May 4 2009 9:33 PM EDT

Your DX advantage over him should reduce him below his bth, if I understand correctly. In other words, he should be hitting you less than 2.4 times/round during the rounds without penalties, because his 140 PTH over your Evasion would be added to some reduced DX-based cth, rather than the full 100%.

However, I'm not entirely clear on how much we really know about the interaction between dex advantage on the defensive end and bth.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 4 2009 9:37 PM EDT

so for him hitting me we would have:

hal 1,756,818 / 5,273,787 * 100 = 33

minion 493,963 / 5,273,787 * 100 = 9

then add his pth and subtract my evasion to get the pre penalties cth?

Colonel Custard [The Knighthood] May 4 2009 9:38 PM EDT

From Tal's info, I guess his Hal should hit you 33% of the time based on DX, or ~1.7 times per non-penalty round, and his archer minion should hit you about 10% of the time based on DX for a total of 1.15 hits/round.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] May 4 2009 9:40 PM EDT

Yes dudemus, that seems correct.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 4 2009 9:40 PM EDT

can dex advantage reduce pth or just reduce bth to zero?

not that it matters much, if 1000 percent dex advantage only takes base to hit on a 100 bth weapon down to 9, but just curious what it would have to be to start eating into these really high pth.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] May 4 2009 9:41 PM EDT

"can dex advantage reduce pth or just reduce bth to zero?"

No, only evasion can reduce pth.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 4 2009 9:47 PM EDT

so it definitely isn't the 100 bth, if that were reduced it would only take 9 or 33 off. it is the other 225 to 250 that a pretty hefty evasion barely eats half of that is the problem.

thanks for help on that folks.

that pretty much blows the idea out of ec working as a counter even in conjunction with dex advantage and evasion.

QBRanger May 4 2009 9:51 PM EDT

As I understand there are 2 ways to hit.

1) Bth, This is the dexterity based chance to hit. The only thing that lowers this is more dexterity. This is the Base chance to hit one sees on the battle report. Add 100 to this for your maximum effect. The Base chance to hit is if equal dexterity.

2) Pth. The plus on the weapon. This can be reduced by DBs or evasion.

However, the factors that can lower one does not effect the other.

This is as I understand.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 4 2009 9:55 PM EDT

so as long as you keep pumping str instead of dex, then i will only fall farther behind and you have no reason to worry about dex because dex advantage matters not when your pth is that high.

QBRanger May 4 2009 9:55 PM EDT

EC can also lower your opponents strength thereby lowering damage done.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 4 2009 9:56 PM EDT

right, but hal's train 50 percent strength to jiggy's 25%. so even with ec you will likely grow faster.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 4 2009 10:21 PM EDT

well one thing has come out of this discussion for me at least, either pth or evasion needs to scale differently.

pth gives too much bang for the buck while evasion gives too little! at least now i have the title for my next discussion thread!

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] May 4 2009 10:23 PM EDT

"pth gives too much bang for the buck while evasion gives too little"

Can't say I agree with this, especially when I don't use a hal and get a free 200+ pth.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 4 2009 10:27 PM EDT

what is your pth on the weapons?

Colonel Custard [The Knighthood] May 4 2009 10:34 PM EDT

All values taken from character inspection, items stats pages, wiki, and tattoo owners' claims and posted data.

grasshopper lvl 6,994,612 owned by dudemus (Kwai Chang)
HP: 3,497,306
ST: 1,748,653
DX: 3,497,306
UC: 2880 (144)
BTH: 50
PTH: 173
Evasion: 112
Max Damage: 1,023,708

The Machine lvl 8,027,165 owned by QBRanger (Heroes)
HP: 2,675,722
ST: 4,013,582
DX: 4,013,582
BTH: 100
PTH: 251
Max Damage: Unknown. (Ranger, is your MPB from the Hal or from Wasp?)

Let's estimate the stats of a lvl 8,027,165 Jiggy:
HP: 4,013,582
ST: 2,006,791
DX: 4,013,582
UC: 3080 (154)
BTH: 50
PTH: 185
Evasion: 120
Max Damage: 1,174,807

Assuming Ranger's MPB of 4mil comes from the Hal, he can one-shot a Jiggy at the same level, whereas it would take Mr. Kano-San 2 and a half hits to kill him. Even if the Hal only hits for 2mil per blow, he can kill Kano-San in a single round, if it's round 5 (where he has an estimated 231% chance to land a hit). Actually, if Ranger's estimation of an average of 70 cth over 6 ranged rounds is accurate, Hal should be able to hit Kano-San twice in the average round of ranged.
Kano-San, meanwhile, has a 35% chance of landing 3 hits in the first round of melee in order to kill Hal. Otherwise, it will take him two rounds.

I'm trying to avoid comparing apples to oranges, because I know that ranged and melee rounds are different.

In order to survive 6 rounds of ranged combat against Hal, Hal's total cth would have to be lowered below 33%/round. A fun tidbit to note is that the wiki doesn't even list the Evasion level required to get an effect of (251). To get a pre-boost Evasion effect of (199), though, a Jiggy would need an Evasion level of 4.7 mil, meaning a UC level of around 14 mil, or a tattoo level of around 28 mil. And even then, the lvl 8mil Hal would have 52 PTH left over and about 28.5% cth from the DX discrepancy. I'll let you invoke ranged penalties and Evasion multipliers, but I still think you'll be hard-pressed to drop Hal's total chance to hit below about 50% per round.

I think the main issue I'm encountering here is that the Hal does too much damage too many times per round.
As I understand it, PTH on weapons and the DB/Evasion cost curve were designed to line up pretty well. However, upgrading the Hal's PTH never reaches the level of "prohibitively expensive." Meanwhile, Jiggy's damage, PTH, and Evasion are all moving up an ever-steepening curve.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] May 4 2009 10:36 PM EDT

With a ~6.7 M ToA, 146pth. To up it three points it costs me 2M dollars. Don't forget to do just around equal damage, tanks need to hit twice. Hitting once and we're still doing less damage.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] May 4 2009 10:38 PM EDT

Ohh and I noticed a mistake you made earlier. When you were comparing your DX to Ranger's you were comparing his melee DX, not his ranged DX. This gives him a lot more cth.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 4 2009 10:42 PM EDT

i don't think that pth is that big of an issue pre 200, evasion and other factors can keep up and keep it to single hits with dex advantage.

artemis, if you were saying that against me you don't think pth is too good, know that mine in post battle is over 270 and i will likely have dex advantage as well.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 4 2009 10:46 PM EDT

if post battle stats show dex and pth after the 60 percent penalty, then his pth is much higher as well?

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] May 4 2009 10:51 PM EDT

"if post battle stats show dex and pth after the 60 percent penalty"

These penalties don't affect the pth.

QBRanger May 4 2009 10:51 PM EDT

The post battle stats only lower dexterity if I make it to melee. The battles I posted and stats vs Dude were in battles that ended in missile.

The MPB on Heroes is from my tank, who does about 1.5-2x more damage.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 4 2009 10:52 PM EDT

from the wiki fighting section:

Minions using Bows during Melee combat will suffer a penalty of 60% to DX and PTH

Colonel Custard [The Knighthood] May 4 2009 10:57 PM EDT

"MPB on Heroes is from my tank, who does about 1.5-2x more damage."
So the short story is that your Hal can kill dude's Jiggy (and could kill one 14.76% bigger) in two hits, which you can easily achieve in a single round of battle.

A Hal team fighting a Jiggy team doesn't have anything to worry about except making their damage and/or HP bigger. A Jiggy team fighting a Hal team has to concentrate on making sure Kano-San lasts until melee so that he can even start to maybe kill the Hal. As such, a Hal team can consist of a single tank to double the damage output, whereas a Jiggy team has to focus a large amount on being defensive.

Colonel Custard [The Knighthood] May 4 2009 11:00 PM EDT

dude: I tested on my tourney char. The reduction in PTH happens in battle, but is not displayed differently in post-battle stats.

And, if Ranger had 251 PTH in post-battle stats after a 60% penalty, that would mean that he has an unpenalized 627 PTH.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] May 4 2009 11:01 PM EDT

"dude: I tested on my tourney char. The reduction in PTH happens in battle, but is not displayed differently in post-battle stats."

That's what I meant.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 4 2009 11:02 PM EDT

i think with a smaller bow i can still win. it is more the double whammy of massive pth from hal coupled with massive pth from uber elb.

what i still find bothersome though is that even though he has two archers, that should really just make my evasion, ec and dex advantage twice as effective. in effect he should be more vulnerable by having two similar types of fighters.

QBRanger May 4 2009 11:04 PM EDT

Is that not what using a HF or a Jiggy is?

Using the HF you are going for the quick kill.

Using a Jiggy is waiting 6 rounds before you can even attack. Being more defensive to last till you can finally start to do damage.

If you take a HF and Jiggy and put them in the arena, if the Jiggy gets to melee, he wins, as the HF cannot then hit it.

Ryuzaki May 4 2009 11:07 PM EDT

just to clarify, has this now become a thread on whether or not the hal is too good? Are people fine with 100 bth?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 4 2009 11:08 PM EDT

most definitely, but there is a point where things do their jobs too well.

the robf did exactly what it was supposed to as well before it was balanced. it did it too well.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 4 2009 11:11 PM EDT

yes ryuzaki, i now believe that evasion effect and plus 200 pth need to become closer together rather than that the 100 bth is to blame.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 4 2009 11:12 PM EDT

or as cc put it, damage needs to be adjusted again on hal's or elbs, that would likely have the same effect but would leave the other melee and ranged weapons faring the same against evasion.

QBRanger May 4 2009 11:15 PM EDT

If it was not for my other archer, my HF alone would lose badly to you.

It is my main tank that puts me over the top.

How do you fare vs Hubbell, who has one main damage dealer?

QBRanger May 4 2009 11:18 PM EDT

Hubbell has a lot of DM.

How about Proteus who has a 7M HP and it is the only damage dealer?

He does not use a very large DM.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 4 2009 11:34 PM EDT

i win 100 percent of the time against proteus.

three4thsforsaken May 4 2009 11:35 PM EDT

I think a integral part of this discussion is the use of Evasion.

Although evasion was nerfed I don't feel it's underpowered, or at least underpowered compared to the ELBows PTH. There has been many references to the Jiggy when pointing out the powerful hitting ability of the ELB.

However, I don't feel like the Jiggy is a valid method of dodging. It's current setup is ineffective at dodging. What I envision as a upper class dodger (to deal with top NW weapons) is an evasion/dex minion with at least 6 million Raw levels committed to dodging (which is very viable at very high MPR). With decent dex/skill equips that should translate to about 200 effect prior to ranged modifiers (which are huge) which pretty much sets you up to get hit only once if not at all to pretty much every bow out there.

It might seem like a hefty investment, but it is neutralizing the tanks with about 1/4 - 1/3 total exp invested (fair deal if you ask me).

QBRanger May 4 2009 11:37 PM EDT

I was beating Titania before he learned evasion and learned dexterity.

Now I lose to him. Evasion and dexterity is a counter to physical damage. Even the ELB with its 100 BTH.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 4 2009 11:39 PM EDT

would +200 db's stack with my 115 evasion effect for a 315 or do they stack differently?

Colonel Custard [The Knighthood] May 4 2009 11:40 PM EDT

"Is that not what using a HF or a Jiggy is?

Using the HF you are going for the quick kill.

Using a Jiggy is waiting 6 rounds before you can even attack. Being more defensive to last till you can finally start to do damage.

If you take a HF and Jiggy and put them in the arena, if the Jiggy gets to melee, he wins, as the HF cannot then hit it."

You're right. I just think that it's unfair that a Jig needs help to last 6 rounds the way it's supposed to, while the Hal doesn't need any help to quick-kill things. I think it should be more of a 50/50 chance of who will win in an 8mil Hal vs an 8mil Jig battle, where the quick-kill abilities of the Hal and the last-a-long-time abilities of the Jig kinda counteract each other. Of course, I guess that's assuming that the Hal isn't designed to be a direct counter for the Jig or something... but does it really need one?
On the other hand, what is the counter for the Hal?

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] May 4 2009 11:40 PM EDT

Differently, it's in the wiki. As for evasion working against SoDs I have 146 pth, I don't hit you once in ranged, or once in melee with my BoNE that has 148 pth.

QBRanger May 4 2009 11:40 PM EDT

Dbs and evasion stack per the xp method.

Me believes that the DBs evasion effect is converted into xp, and then the xp of the effective evasion is added to this to find the new better level.

But to answer your question, no, they do not stack linearly.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 4 2009 11:44 PM EDT

artemis, with my dex advantage due to ec, you likely have at most a 33 percent chance to hit before any penalties.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] May 4 2009 11:46 PM EDT

For my SoD 66 with my pth, I did the math. Those pesky ranged penalties kick my but. I guess I was just really unlucky in the last two rounds of ranged. I don't know why the SoD has greater penalties in the first two rounds of ranged than then Elb does. It's like around 80 cth or so.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 4 2009 11:48 PM EDT

the evasion curve, unless changed, was going to effectively cap between 200 and 250 i believe. just like weapon plus, it can go higher but is not really cost effective.

however hal and jiggy's pth, seems to be much more easier to keep growing. your uber weapon is what kills me now, but the fact that evasion will not keep up with familiar pth is what worries me the most.

if db's stack on the xp side, then you are still limited by the effective cap. had they stacked by effect then i would have thought i found the reason. ; (

QBRanger May 4 2009 11:48 PM EDT

My HF does about 550k average damage per round, hitting your JKF about 1.2 times a round.

So in the battle, if going 6 missile rounds and me directly attacking your Jiggy, I would do about 4M total damage.

That is about 1M or so more than your Jig has.

Without my other archer, you would easily beat me, with just 2 minions in front or 1.5M more HP from an AS on a single minion enchanter.

I think the Jig and HF are well balanced. It is my other archer that wins the battle for me.

Not everyone has a 200M Elb for their archer. If I had one 1/2 that size I likely would lose. With my 120M NW MsB, I did lose.

QBRanger May 4 2009 11:56 PM EDT

I do not know if the HFs PTH is a linear increase.

If it is, then it will hit a bit more as both the Jig and HF grows. However as the Jig gets more HP as a "defense" the HF has to as it will not gain any dex BTH if they both grow in a similar manner.

Balanced I believe.

If your evasion is "capped" at 250 and my HF continues to grow, every 1 more PTH is 1% more damage. Likely compensated by the extra hp your Jig gets as it grows.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 4 2009 11:58 PM EDT

but you also get twice as much strength, which when added to the damage from the extra pth is the killer in my mind. i would get more hits then you in melee, but if we never make it there then the dex matters not.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 5 2009 12:01 AM EDT

in reality, you will likely win against me but we will both be uber due to the fact that evasion is really the only effective counter to pth and it cannot keep up. that in my mind is more important than who wins.

pth has one and only one game mechanic counter and it is evasion. if pth can get much higher than evasion then why would people not all switch to the melee familiars, they have no counter that can grow as effectively as they do.

QBRanger May 5 2009 12:02 AM EDT

DBs are a counter to PTH.

Kefeck [FARM ME] May 5 2009 12:05 AM EDT

DBs are a counter to PTH.

They need too be +100 before they become effective..

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] May 5 2009 12:06 AM EDT

Umm not true kefeck... It all has to do with chances.

QBRanger May 5 2009 12:09 AM EDT

Not true,

Even +50 DBs will lower damage by 1/2 a hit per round on average.

I hit with 2 tanks for 500k and 700k on average. +50 DBs would lower your damage by about 600k a round. I may do 3.6M damage in a round if I hit a lot, however that is still 16.67% less damage you took that round.

Not too bad for less than 5M NW investment.

+100 DBs are about 15M. They lower hits by 1 guaranteed a round per tank.

Not everything in CB has to be a 100% complete thing. Damage reduction can be partial and still be very effective.

We all got used to the 100% miss rate of tanks with the old evasion. That was so out of line I almost laugh when thinking about how foolish it was.

QBRanger May 5 2009 12:15 AM EDT

But this thread as digressed from the title.

Whether the HF is OP is for another thread.

With respect to the 100 BTH, it is not 100 BTH the entire missile rounds of the battle. It is that for at most 3 rounds, likely only 2. The earlier rounds have a significant penalty.

Averaged over the entire battle, I would say it is no more than 70 BTH.

So, to answer your question. No, 100 Bth is not too good. It is fine given the overall scheme of evasion multipliers, missile round penalties and ranged damage reductions.

Aera Cura May 5 2009 12:19 AM EDT

Oh my bad i thought we were talking about the plus too hit which in no way shape or form has much too do with damage, and is almost completely different from my understanding.

Aera Cura May 5 2009 12:25 AM EDT

Also, by using EB's versus DB's my Dex is 700k levels higher. Which i'm pretty sure is giving me the dex advantage over fellow tanks, which makes up for not using db's. (with a smaller investment also).

I wouldnt say the hal is overpowered, my hal level 5.4 million is only hitting on average i'd say 300k per hit times 3-4 per round.

iBananco [Blue Army] May 5 2009 2:04 AM EDT

"Also, by using EB's versus DB's my Dex is 700k levels higher. Which i'm pretty sure is giving me the dex advantage over fellow tanks, which makes up for not using db's."
Sure, if by makes up for you mean a CTH loss of about 20-30 as opposed to 100.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 5 2009 3:11 AM EDT

Not to be specific (I' not claiming the Hal or the ELbow is OP), I'm dead set agianst the idea of 100% bth existing for any Physical weapon.

Environmental penalties aside, 100% bth on Physical attacks dips into the mechanics of Magical attacks too much, but making the base chance to land a single hit automatic.

It's the reason magical attacks don't get multiple hits per round, becuase they have 100% chance to hit.

Cube May 5 2009 3:48 AM EDT

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but 100 bth doesn't translate to an automatic hit right? If someone out dex's the tank, then all the shots can still be dodged.

iBananco [Blue Army] May 5 2009 4:06 AM EDT

Correct. Tanks with less dex can still miss.

three4thsforsaken May 5 2009 4:21 AM EDT

But we also have to take into account the capabilities of each hit. Physical damage does less damage per hit than a DD spell would (unless extreme NW is involved in X but that is a PTH tradeoff).

Is it really that bad that possibly Hal and Jiggy have a more linear approach to PTH? Take a look at how their total damage per round would grow and then compare it to mages. It takes a lot of PTH to add on another hit and it takes alot of str/X to increase damage.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 5 2009 4:22 AM EDT

The game is designed around equivalents.

Assume Tanks have equal STR/DEX. Then it's an automatic hit per round, like Magic attacks.

Sure you can skew STR/DEX training, But then the Tank with the higher Dex hits more often (or dodges more), but hits for less.

And no one else get's to knock that 100% automatic hit down, but another equal sized Tank.

Still, this is strategy, and how to cope with 100% BTH. It's not a reflection of the away from stats mechanics. In which we have now given Physical attacks an automatic hit per round, and multiple hits on top.

Where magic gets the automatic hit per round, but no multiple hits.

Both damage is linear, and knocking down the 100% BTH by 30% is exactly the same (over time, burst versus sustained) as reducing the Magic attack by 30%.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 5 2009 8:22 AM EDT

thanks for changing my discussion title for me! i think it is more representative now.

ranger you said db's are a counter to pth as if that is in addition to evasion. they just grant evasion though, so they aren't another counter to pth just the same counter.

the way they stack make them no different than training evasion which also means that the evasion curve will still have the same effective cap on it whether you get your evasion from xp or db's.

someone else asked if tanks could still miss because of dex advantage. i have a 300 and 1000 percent dex advantage over rangers two archers. all that it does is take their bth down to 33 and 9 respectively. that will make them miss the bth shot, but it has no effect on the pth shots. so it makes them hit, in the not penalty rounds, twice instead of three times for example.

so, in summary, bth can be countered by dex advantage. it would take a massive dex advantage to get 100 bth down to zero though. then evasion, either granted by xp or db's will directly come off of pth. ranger's hal is already at 251 or so pth while my jiggy is at 274 pth.

because of evasion cost curve, it will get very difficult to get the effect, again whether by xp or db makes no matter the way they stack, above a certain number (over 250 somewhere.) weapon pth will be somewhat limited as well by the plus cost curve, but the familiar pth seems like it will continue to grow much more easily, making evasion only able to knock out about two rounds or so.

i just don't see how this can work in a long term fashion. we did have a damage rescale when the new evasion was introduced and i guess that could be the balancing factor, regular balance rescales.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 5 2009 8:28 AM EDT

i just read this:

"Is it really that bad that possibly Hal and Jiggy have a more linear approach to PTH? Take a look at how their total damage per round would grow and then compare it to mages. It takes a lot of PTH to add on another hit and it takes alot of str/X to increase damage"

i think the jiggy is more balanced for longevity in that its strength is only trained at 25% of its level. that slows down its damage growth. the hall though has its strength trained at 50% of its level. that coupled with a seemingly linear pth curve creates a fairly linear damage curve as well.

QBRanger May 5 2009 8:53 AM EDT


Has anyone addressed the fact that the ELB and HF only have 100 BTH for about 3-4 of the 6 missile rounds?

The rest have a penalty.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 5 2009 8:59 AM EDT

you kill me in ranged and are therefore overwhelming the penalty already by using two archers. as pth continues to grow, it will only be easier to overwhelm the penalties with the single hals. that is the whole point, penalties and evasion are fixed past a certain point. pth will grow as will damage!

QBRanger May 5 2009 9:03 AM EDT


I kill you not with my HF, but with the fact I have 2 archers. One has a massive bow and 5M strength.

If I get rid of that bow and use Spiral, a mageseeker worth 120M, I lose to you badly and never kill your Jiggy.

To use Heroes as a basis for 100 BTH being bad is not a great argument in a debate.

Use Proteus' character, which has a HF as its only attack and has a level almost identical to yours. How do you do vs him?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 5 2009 9:07 AM EDT

check the new thread title ranger, i have stated numerous times that the issue is not bth as i once thought. it is pth and its game mechanic counter evasion that are the culprits.

did you read my summary from an hour or so ago? 100 bth was so yesterday! ; )

QBRanger May 5 2009 9:08 AM EDT

Hence the problem when threads take a tangent.


Sorry about that.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 5 2009 9:10 AM EDT

yeah, starting a new one and losing the data seemed more confusing, perhaps that was a mistake!

QBRanger May 5 2009 9:10 AM EDT


Pth > evasion but only at very very high levels.

To get a weapon PTH over 250 takes millions upon millions of CB.

For the HF, I do not know if it is a linear growth. If it is, then we can see how a 15M tattoo works in about 5 years.

If it is not a linear growth, then we have nothing to worry about. If it is, then I suggest it parallels the growth pattern of evasion. Becoming very hard to increase at very high levels.

BUT... One can use DBs which one can get very high (see Mikel).

Marlfox [Cult of the Valaraukar] May 5 2009 9:13 AM EDT

I'd agree with Ranger on that. Evasion easily demolishes Pth at lower levels, but Pth does overcome it later on.
I, personally, like the way it works now.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 5 2009 9:28 AM EDT

yeah, it is only at the higher levels that it will be a problem and as i stated weapons have and effective cap much like evasion does due to cost.

does those 300 db's give 300 evasion effect though?

QBRanger May 5 2009 9:40 AM EDT

"does those 300 db's give 300 evasion effect though?"

Yes, just ask Mikel with his 300+ DBs.
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