Archery, Bows and BTH (in General)


AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 5 2009 9:32 AM EDT

I've been having a think about my gripe with 100% BTH.

It's true that currently it's only achievable for Bows, coupled with a maximum effect Archery. And that's only for around half (with HoC?) the Ranged rounds.

My gripe isn't about power, or specific items/tattoos. My gripe is about the mechanics here dipping too much into the mainstay of Magical attacks.

But this requires Archery to be trained. Otherwise Bows have the smallest BTH (20%) without the Skill.

It's pointless using Bows without Archery trained, and I don't like the access to 100% BTH with access to Multiple hits with it trained.

So I considered maybe a change to Archery would be beneficial?

How about increasing the BTH of all bows up from its current 20%, and changing the focus of Archery. Making Archery more of a choice for Archers, than a Requirement (And having it apply to XBows and Slings as well. But leaving thier BTH as is).

We could change Archery to be a 0/1 skill (at a percentage of DEX maybe over STR. Leave STR for Bloodlust), and make it all about the sniping sure shot.

Have an Archery of '1' allow a 100% BTH, or rather an automatic 100% chance to hit (modified by Ranged round as normal), but deny any additional hits per round (from either DEX or PTH on weapon). PTH here could be factored into the Damage of your aditional hit, to make sure 'Archers' don't waste PR from having a + on their weapon that has no use. Maybe Evasion/DBs could still work here, to lower the additional damage from weapon PTH, but still leaving the 'Archer' with a 100% chance to hit every round.

That would give the option to make your Ranged attacks work like Magical ones, hitting every round, but doesn't let them hit automatically every round multiple times.

In addition it would give you the option to not train Archery, and take the chance that someone Dodges your hits, but gives you multiple hits per round. It would also make Bows worth using without training Archery by default.

Archery could also include an increase to the effectiveness of Ranged Weapons used in Melee. Amounts to be decided by balance requirements. ;)

What do you all think?

(Now I'm hoping that 100% BTH never crops up on Melee Weapons)

QBRanger May 5 2009 9:39 AM EDT

Should this be in the new debate forum?

And if this happens, 1 hit a round, nobody would be an archer, since with the current damage, it is impossible to kill in 6 rounds.

Then entering melee you get huge neg to hit.

Unless you propose to remove the melee penalties such as hitting every other round and the 60% dex/pth penalty.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 5 2009 9:44 AM EDT

Maybe! As a Discussion, not a debate. ;)

1) That's why I suggested rolling in the PTH into increased damage.

2) I suggesed that as well.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 5 2009 9:44 AM EDT

as i stated in my other thread, if anything is changed the whole ranged rounds need to just be revamped due to over complication!

get rid of ranged round penalties as well as getting rid of evasion bonuses. then adjust damage or hits accordingly to balance it. it is just too hard now to figure out what someones chance to hit is and thus tell if it is buggy or not.

if any other modifiers are needed afterwards, have them be straight off of the total cth rather than layered.

not that jon would ever get a decimal point wrong or anything! ; )

Wizard'sFirstRule May 5 2009 9:55 AM EDT

if it aren't broken, don't fix it.

/my 2c

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 5 2009 9:57 AM EDT

I think it is broken.

To have Magical's auto hit and Physicals multiple hits is in my mind broken.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 5 2009 10:03 AM EDT

"if it aren't broken, don't fix it."

in my pth > evasion thread i think you have all the numbers needed. if you are so convinced that it isn't broken, please give me ranger's total chance to hit including all ranged round modifiers and evasion modifiers.

most of the work is done for you but if you can go the rest of the way, showing your work, and having it match results then i will say it is not broken. let's make sure we get your formulas in the wiki though!

QBJohnnywas May 5 2009 10:15 AM EDT

It's quite interesting: I just attacked King Of Pain and those +324 DBs. I'm presuming I'm getting a hit because of my 4 mill dex, but I can hit once a round for six rounds. My Morg gets a hit occasionally, but mostly misses. But to see a mageseeker not miss at all...

Out of interest I have about +130 from my ToA and nothing else on the PTH front where the bow is concerned.

QBJohnnywas May 5 2009 10:19 AM EDT

Is the problem similar to the GA/damage problem? Did the BTH and PTH business go that way because evasion was a problem and hasn't been adjusted now that evasion has been changed?

Because I'm not convinced the HAL is overpowered for instance. Ranger's tatt gives him a minion roughly the same size as my nearly 2 mill MPR archer. But the bow...how much free NW do those tattoos carry? How much do you need to spend to get nearly 300 PTH on an ELB?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 5 2009 10:21 AM EDT

you have full dex advantage so your bth of 99 gives you the one hit. his evasion is only effective against the pth.

i do think it probably has to do with an incomplete change when evasion was balanced. we will have to see though.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 5 2009 10:32 AM EDT

Please correct me if this information is wrong

Dude's Stats
Dex: 5,273,787
Evasion: 112

Rangers Hal (Named level 8,356,145)
Dex: 4,178,073
PTH: 251

That would give the Hal (before Ranged Penalties. Can anyone dig those out of the Wiki, I couldn't find them on a casual glance);

((4,178,073/5,273,787)*100)+(251-112) = 79+139 = 218 CTH

(The first section is capped at 200, the second can't go below 0)

Or Two hits per round, each round, with an 18% chance for a third hit each round.

The Ranged penalties will modify this for the earlier round.

(As an aside, I agree with Johnny on the subject of the Hal. It's it's inbuilt Elbow with no increase to PR/reduction of it's stats that makes it too good currently. It's like the WA on steroids!)

QBRanger May 5 2009 10:53 AM EDT

And when we go to melee, Dude's JKF gets 4 hits a round on my HF.

I think that is unfair, WAAAAAAAA.

I think things are much better now than the have ever been.

Now, with a full dex advantage using an elb vs Mikel's DBs, should you not hit 2x in the latter missile rounds with 100 BTH?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 5 2009 11:09 AM EDT

Again, I'm not commenting on the specific here, my above post was in repsonse to Dude asking for the maths to be worked out. In hindsight, I should have posted it in different Topic, as I don't want this one to also be derailed into Dude versus Ranger.

My gripe is with the mechanics, not the specifics.

Dark Dreky May 5 2009 11:17 AM EDT

If I can provide any useful information from Vectoidz, let me know.

I am more than willing to conduct some tests to help this thread.

QBRanger May 5 2009 11:21 AM EDT

The way I see it, as I always saw it:

Missile needs to kill quick.

You devote your entire character (usually) to kill in those 6 rounds, knowing full well if you do not, your usually toast in melee.

So an archer, if you choose that type of tank, has to hit fast, and often.

If you decide to be a melee tank, like the JKF is, you build your character around lasting to melee. Hunckering down for 6 rounds of magic or missile till you can do your damage.

Right now, I would lose to dudemus with a smaller ELB than the one I have. If I used my old MsB, Spiral, I would lose easily to Dude's JKF. With his characters AS/GA and kill slots, it would be no contest.

Use a relatively similar character to his, like Proteus' who uses a HF as its only form of missile attack.

It seems Dude wins that battle every time.

I personally believe the HF is a bit high on the free PTH it gets. But it is not so overly out of wack to be a huge problem, until we get to the very high tattoo levels where evasion stalls out.

However, in the earlier levels of play, the HF's PTH is not that high while DBs and UC/JKF are relatively high. Especially if you use a CGI or HGs on a UC minion.

So we have a situation where at the lower levels, the HF is weaker, ramping up in power at the higher levels. It is tradeoff of sorts.

I think the HF's PTH should be related in some way to the JKF's evasion. Parallel in sort. But remember, the HF only has 6 rounds to kill a JKF, while after that it is no contest. And the first 2-3 rounds, the HF gets a nice penalty to its "to hit".

In conclusion, I think things are relatively balanced right now. With evasion/PTH/BTH/DB. Perhaps, and only perhaps, at much higher tattoo levels, the HF's PTH may need to be adjusted a bit lower. But we are typing about 15M tattoo levels, something that will not be seen for 3-4 years at current tattoo growths.

Also, if the HF was so powerful, why is not everyone using one. In the top ranks we have equal distributions of RoS, SF, RBF and HF. That alone should say a lot.

With respect to the 100 BTH, I think this is fine, considering the penalties one gets in the earlier rounds.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 5 2009 11:51 AM EDT

"Also, if the HF was so powerful, why is not everyone using one. In the top ranks we have equal distributions of RoS, SF, RBF and HF. That alone should say a lot. "

i think you answer yhourself best!

QBRanger April 22 3:57 PM EDT
And as for me going with an exbow, not a chance.

I know in my bones it is overpowered and am waiting, hopefully for Jon to fix it. It may take 18 months like the VB but it has to be changed.

And why do I have to use one to combat one?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 5 2009 12:01 PM EDT

also, while the numbers for hals are not amazing, check out the average net worth. just like the robf, there are more upper tats being switched over to them. that is usually a sign of things to come.

if i started an ncb again i would go hal even though i feel it will be tweaked.

Tattoo Extant Avg NW Avg price - NW
Jigorokano Familiar 409 $3,807,997 $357,776
Rune of Enlightenment 306 $11,030 $717,147
Halidon Familiar 124 $22,968,146 $509,366
Steel Familiar 186 $15,583,606 $379,977
Rune of Solitude 200 $13,949,917 $-1,629,259
Rune of Balrog Flame 206 $13,929,184 $-3,760,444
Electric Familiar 68 $11,865,398 $119,387
Tattoo of Augmentation 332 $11,393,565 $13,225
Tattoo of Endurance 278 $6,027,321 $63,352
Ice Familiar 132 $5,927,346 $-923,702
Fire Familiar 224 $4,847,263 $-1,553,827

three4thsforsaken May 5 2009 12:11 PM EDT

I don't like the idea of over simplifying.

QBRanger May 5 2009 12:22 PM EDT

One cannot dispute cold hard facts Dude.

I think the 3 best tattoos right now are the RBF, SF and HF with the RoS a very very close 4th.

I still believe the RBF is the best tattoo, especially on a multiminion character.

For a single or dual minion one, the HF or SF is best.



Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 5 2009 12:24 PM EDT

which cold hard facts would the be?

QBRanger May 5 2009 12:26 PM EDT

The average NW of tattoos. With the HF having the highest.

I am agreeing with you.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 5 2009 12:29 PM EDT

ok, wanted to ask before i assumed.

i have wondered what mikel could do with his db's and a hal. i think that may be one of the perfect setups for longevity.

he did say that his db's give an effect of like 336 for evasion. so db's may be the big counter for pth with evasion being only useful at the lower ranks. oddly enough i think that the skill should give more bang for buck than an item, but that is just me.

QBRanger May 5 2009 12:30 PM EDT

The huge problem for a HF is GA. Yes, one can use DM, but then one becomes vulnerable to DD spells.

If Mikel would use the HF, he would get creamed by DM as he has not AS.

And AS gets dispelled, especially if one does not have a superminion like Novice casting it.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 5 2009 12:31 PM EDT

"With respect to the 100 BTH, I think this is fine, considering the penalties one gets in the earlier rounds."

DD gets exactly the same penalties, and the Ranged DDs are exactly the same. Have to kill quick or you're literally Toast in Melee.

Yet these 100% Ranged attacks can't hit multiple times.

That's the inconsistency. That's why it's broken.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 5 2009 12:37 PM EDT

bth can only give one hit per round though. all others come from pth.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] May 5 2009 12:40 PM EDT

In the case of that Mageseeker vs Mikel the reason it is only 1 hit per round is that evasion and DBs can actually cut into dex cth. Once pth is lowered to 0 they will cut into the dex cth but cannot lower it beyond the bth. Meaning his DB lower the cth to 99 but not any lower.

Also, in ranged rounds I believe that there is no actual ranged penalties for weapons. I am not at all sure about this, but I think it is just the large boost to evasion that cuts down the hits by that much.

QBRanger May 5 2009 12:46 PM EDT

Wait a minute.

I thought BTH was the change to hit with equal dexterity.

You add 100 to it for max dex advantage. So ELBs can get 2 hits a round without PTH.

Or am I so confused now.

And with DD, you cast MM in missile rounds. But in melee rounds it still hits every round.

Bows and other missile weapons fire every other round with 60% penalty to hit. Massive difference between DD and missile damage.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 5 2009 12:47 PM EDT

nem, i had asked in the evasion2 changelog from last september and the consensus was that ranged penalties definitely still exist, jon never replied though:


dudemus September 19 2008 2:20 PM EDT
one more question, does this replace all ranged penalties we used to have and now we just have the ranged evasion bonus instead?
QBnovice September 19 2008 2:21 PM EDT
there are still most certainly additional ranged penalties to hit
dudemus September 19 2008 2:24 PM EDT
do you know if it starts lower and gets higher or the reverse?
QBnovice September 19 2008 2:24 PM EDT
highest penalties were stated to be in round 1, they are reduced from there
dudemus September 19 2008 2:27 PM EDT
so in those instances where some hal's miss me in round one and/or two but then get multiples in later ranged rounds, that is likely due to the ranged penalties.

if, as draco believes, evasion could still eat into weapon base CTH and the misses were caused by evasion, then you would never see multiple hits from the same hal that also missed, correct?

QBRanger May 5 2009 12:48 PM EDT

Not ture Nem as vs those without evasion, I hit 1 less time on average in the early missile rounds vs the latter ones.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 5 2009 12:54 PM EDT

hmm, i was speaking from what i learned yesterday, but that is with me having max dex advantage over you ranger. if so, it sucks that max dex advantage when you are attacking me can give you two hits while me defending with 300 % and 1000 % dex advantage can only take your bth chance to hit down to 9 and 33 respectively!

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 5 2009 12:55 PM EDT

That's true Ranger. It's 1 hit with equal Dex max of two from higher Dex. Then PTH on top.

As for MM. /meh. It hits like a wet noodle (comparitively). The SoD hits every round in Melee too, and hits all targets. Multiple times.

QBRanger May 5 2009 1:27 PM EDT

The SoD does not and should not hit every round in melee.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 5 2009 1:47 PM EDT

from the wiki fighting section:

* Minions using Bows during Melee combat will suffer a penalty of 60% to DX and PTH
* Minions using Crossbows during Melee Combat will suffer a penalty of 40% to DX and PTH
* Minions using Slings during Melee Combat will suffer a penalty of 80% to DX and PTH
* Minions using a Bow or a Crossbow will shoot every other round in melee starting at round one, but slings shoot every round.

QBRanger May 5 2009 1:54 PM EDT

O, learn something new every day.

/me bops himself on the head for not choosing a SoD. No skill, every melee round attack, attacking all minions.



Cube May 5 2009 2:01 PM EDT

Did you miss this part?

"* Minions using Slings during Melee Combat will suffer a penalty of 80% to DX and PTH "

80% is... a lot

AdminTitan May 5 2009 2:34 PM EDT

Yeah no kidding Cube, even with AA's SoD if someone had on some small DBs I was barely hitting or missing.

QBRanger May 5 2009 2:39 PM EDT

Yes, depending on whom your trying to hit.

An opposing tank, sure.

An opposing enchanter/mage, may not be hard.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 5 2009 6:35 PM EDT

Rangers right here. It's terribly easy to hit the whole Mage/Enchanter based team with a SoD in Melee, if you don't have a dedicated Dex/Evasion Tank as your front minion. 80% of a couple of Mil is still enough to get max Dex based hits versus 20 Dex...

I'm sure Sute bought this up ages ago.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 5 2009 6:38 PM EDT

"Yeah no kidding Cube, even with AA's SoD if someone had on some small DBs I was barely hitting or missing."

Was that back when a large pair of DB could also reduce Dex based cth? Now, no matter how large the DBs are, you'll only be able to reduce 20% of the SoD's PTH with them, as that's all it'll have, and the DB are ineffective after that.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 6 2009 3:06 PM EDT

we had one "if it aren't brokey, no fixy" and one "i don't want it oversimplified" but no one has taken me up on doing the calculations and figuring out a formula. we even had a contest to find the ranged penalties to no avail.

therefore, my question to you is if it is so complex that we cannot tell when it is broken, why the heck wouldn't you want it "somewhat" simplified?

what about if, just instead of having an evasion bonus and a mystery penalty, we have only one that is known?
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