What does OP mean? (in Debates)
I feel like the concept of overpowered has become distorted to something I no longer understand.
So what does it mean?
I think it refers to a certain ability or strategy that allows one to challenge up abnormally high. Something that is OP has one or less EFFECTIVE counters and is much more powerful to like terms (For example an OP DD is better than other DDs.)
I do not think that OP has a direct relation to efficiency. Sure, OP things tend to be efficient, but efficient things aren't necessarily OP. Efficiency alone does not win fights. Take GS/Haste teams for example: super efficient but not super effective. In theory many things statistically look strong or weak but it doesn't mean it is or is not.
I contend that OP should also include things that may not being necessarily fair. The example that spawned this post being the NW of the Hal's bow in comparison to the tattoos own NW. If in addition to a minion with some beefy intrinsics and a skill you get a bow with a NW that would almost match the tattoos itself it might be a bit off.
Another example would be the fixed reduction items like the SoC or MgS, they reduce a percentage of damage, regardless of the actual size of the damage. 25% of a million damage is a lot more than 25% of a hundred thousand damage, and yet the same net worth MgS reduces both, effectively negative a much larger amount of XP in one than the other.
May 6 2009 11:53 PM EDT
Overpowered, in my book, is something effective far beyond what is average. Some things will be a little better than others, of course, but if something is extremely effective beyond everything else, that's "overpowered."
May 7 2009 12:30 AM EDT
Lol, novice, I don't think anyone disputes that Ranger's bow is overpowered. ;) It's crazy strong.
May 7 2009 12:50 AM EDT
And another things that can be considered OP is the NSC.
Effectively stopping at least 3+M levels in AMF. With an item costing under 4M. Of course at the higher levels.
Is that not also OP?
What is your definition of OP? And why does it apply to NSC Ranger?
May 7 2009 1:23 AM EDT
OP by my definition.
1) Does something so well, it is the only things to use.
2) Supplies too much power for its NW.
1) The VB before Jon's nerf. When its damage was in the mid 70's. And AC mattered, and the TOE was uber. It was the only weapon to equip. It had great damage, cut AC/ToE/Endurance/protection, and was 1H. It did not leech but had everything else.
2) The NSC. It stop so much AMF for its cost especially at high MPR levels. Right now it is useless for me to learn any AMF between 100k and 3M due to the level of DD spells combined with NSC. They are useless xp. Only good vs decay where a 100k AMF would help just as much. It causes a dead zone in xp which does no good. I feel that is unacceptable for CB. Therefore it is why I believe it is OP.
3) The ToE before its recent nerf. Was just too good. Stopped way too much damage and could not be overcome by almost anything but high level CoC. There was no SG then. It was basically the best and most popular tattoo for a reason. Looking back, it was very OP.
4) The MgS. I did not believe it was too OP, but many others did. For a relatively smallish NW it stopped 30+% of DD spells. I thought that the restrictions were great enough to offset this but others and Jon did not.
May 7 2009 1:27 AM EDT
5) The AoF. Before junction was changed, it gave 3% per level to the DD familiar and gave 3% per level to ED spells. That is too much power for an item of that NW. To much free xp/MPR.
Seconding Ranger here;
"OP by my definition.
1) Does something so well, it is the only things to use."
That's really the main one.
When one option becomes so good it is the best, and often only choice, to take, then it's OP.
The original Cloak of Balrog Flame for example.
If you get to a stage of "can't beat them, have to join them", then there's something wrong.
AMF is OP, it not only lowers the damage done by the MAGE it also returns some of that damage right back at the mage. No other EO has this duality.
Ow and Ranger the reason why the NSC won't get changed is right because of the duality, fix that then do something about the nsc
May 7 2009 8:57 AM EDT
You completely miss the point.
But I know you just like to take the opposite point of view from me.
That's ok, we need different opinions.
May 7 2009 9:11 AM EDT
By point is that if AMF was that OP, it would be the only things to use.
And due to the NSC, a lot of people do not even bother with it.
I personally as in my thread above, stated for me to learn anything between 100k and 3M AMF is useless. As the NSC makes all that xp useless.
An item worth 5M making 3M levels of a spell worthless- that is classic overpowered. It does not lower its effectiveness, no, it makes it do nothing.
AMF by itself is a different issue. While it does give backlash and lower damage, it is a foil for something that hits every round. By itself it is not OP, facing the NSC, it is nearly useless super high level.
I'm afriad I'm going on a tangent here, perhaps we should start a new thread.
But what size DD's are you going against and causing a 3 mil AMF to have "no effect"? How much exp are they investing in comparison to you?
May 7 2009 11:58 AM EDT
Take a 8M+ familiar.
Casting an AMF with 3M levels vs someone with +13 or higher AMF will give a very low if not 0 AMF.
Perhaps someone can do the exact math.
May 7 2009 12:03 PM EDT
I will try:
Here from the wiki:
Calculate the ratio (AMF level/DD level), after all bonuses/penalties; call this X.
If X<1 (that is, AMF weaker than DD) then effect is X^(0.7)/2
If X>1 (AMF stronger than DD) effect is 1 - 1/(2X)
So 3/8 = .375
AMF would be about .24. or less than .1 vs some NSC. Novice's is so high to skew the system and should not be used for comparisons.
2M AMF would yield:
AMF of .18 or almost 0 vs most NSCs near the top ranks.
That is a lot of xp. 2-3M levels taken away from an item costing so little. Relative to 200M NW weapons people say are overpowered.
V. 8.5m AMF with a 10.8m DD and +19 NSC
Pyromancer cast Antimagic Field on Farmboy familiar (0.23)
Against Iconics (don't have exact numbers but it's larger than 2.2m)
cast Antimagic Field on Farmboy familiar (0.04)
Nice, Nov. I'm so happy we are in the same clan. ;)
Now lets say someone trains 8 mil into str and puts on decent str boosting equips.
How effective would 3 mil EC be then? Is Strboosting equips overpowered then? Is EC underpowered?
Or is it possible that perhaps EOs weren't designed to have a dramatic effect unless you have greater exp investment than the opponent? I thought they were created to combat exp dilution and familiars are the pinnacle of exp concentration.
May 7 2009 12:50 PM EDT
EC is very underpowered.
I do not think many people would disagree.
May 7 2009 12:55 PM EDT
Even a 3M investment into EC would lower the opposing tanks strength. Lowering damage by a certain amount. It would also lower dexterity perhaps giving a difference in BTH.
AMF vs the NSC has the potential to do nothing unless it is a certain level.
Imagine an item a tank can wear giving it immunity to EC based up it strength and dexterity.
IE, Cloak of Protection.
Each + gives 2% protection from the drain of ax/exbows and EC. Upgrade as the NSC. So +14 named would protect 30% of a tanks strength and dexterity from EC and exbow/axbow leech. Flat full on 100% protection. Not a partial, but full protection. Cannot be drained below that amount.
I say 2% as a tank needs more strength due to its non linear damage production.
Sign me up.
Dark Phantom cast Antimagic Field on Farmboy's familiar (0.15)
That would be with a 6,346,664 AMF.
"EC is very underpowered. "
"Even a 3M investment into EC would lower the opposing tanks strength. Lowering damage by a certain amount. It would also lower dexterity perhaps giving a difference in BTH. "
The point I'm trying to drive across is that 3 mil EC will do almost nothing to reduce damage on 8 million Raw str. If you have any str boosting equips you're going to get at least a 50% str boost, upwards to over 100% if you have the money. That's at least 12 million str. What is 1.5 str drain doing to do there? Almost nothing. Actually, you'll probably be unable to measure the difference since it's so subtle.
Funny you should recommend some sort of EC resistance, but there already is. What's the most boostable stat in the game? Strength is. Why would you want EC resistance when a plain strength boost is just as good if not better? EC's linear growth is stopped in its tracks with Strength's rapid growth.
So far EC and AMF seem to be on the same page. What's the least boostable stat in the game? Ok fine, it's HP. What's the 2nd least boostable stat? Direct damage spells. Jon obviously noticed this and made AMF effect increase non-linearly. And then he realized that there was little DD's could do to combat AMF so he added NSC. I mean, what can a mage do against AMF prior? EC is so much more protected than AMF that it makes sense.
Don't you see a pattern in CB's design? Str increases damage nonlinearlly, so a linear decrease in str results in a nonlinear decrease in damage. DDs increase damage lineally, so a nonlinear scaling of AMF results in a nonlinear form of damage reduction. If you add strengths boost-ability into the equation with DD's lack thereof then NSC makes much more sense.
I'll quote myself
"is it possible that perhaps EOs weren't designed to have a dramatic effect unless you have greater exp investment than the opponent? I thought they were created to combat exp dilution and familiars are the pinnacle of exp concentration."
May 7 2009 5:11 PM EDT
And in the face of CB2, where familiars at higher levels are in some cases becoming the main damage source, AMF vs NSC's is a losing battle.
Do you expect people to put 2 of their 4 minions towards AMF? I do not and do not believe the EO spells were designed to only be useful if higher than the DD spells they face.
The NSC is extremely powerful. Just look at Marl's 6+M AMF vs novice. 0.15, that is freaking small.
EC is a completely different dynamic. EC will work on dexterity and strength. Lowering someones strength will lower their damage done.
Not linearly like DD but it does lower it. In addition it lowers dexterity possibly giving you the dexterity advantage and more BTH.
I recommended some sort of EC resistance mostly in response to the exbow, which nearly everyone believes is way overpowered but has not been changed in more than 2 years.
"What's the 2nd least boostable stat? Direct damage spells."
NO, it is ED and EO spells. Only the corn, BOE and SB's boost them.
While the CoI, AG, BOE and SB boost DD spells.
I feel like I've addressed most of the points above. Try rereading it.
"Do you expect people to put 2 of their 4 minions towards AMF? I do not and do not believe the EO spells were designed to only be useful if higher than the DD spells they face."
"The NSC is extremely powerful. Just look at Marl's 6+M AMF vs novice. 0.15, that is freaking small."
Yeah, he's only dealing with the biggest tattoo in the game with the biggest NSC in the game. If he was doing more I would be concerned.
As for the boost-ability statement EO's are slighly more especially if you use NSC. Corn is worth a lot and SB and BoE boost Enchantments too. AoF does funny stuff.
Either way, surely you concede that DDs are much less boostable then str or dex.
May 7 2009 6:43 PM EDT
Certainly they are.
However raising dexterity typically does nothing except vs other tanks.
It is not a big stat to raise.
All things that raise dex also raise skills so that helps everyone.
Raising strength is easier, far easier. But the strength increase does not increase damage as linearly as DD spells. Therefore it should be easier to raise strength.
However, the NSCs just remove an amount of AMF directly. If it was a tattoo, that mages wear great. Consider it like the RoS vs DM. But as an item I feel it is way OP.
May 7 2009 6:45 PM EDT
Let's put it this way, Ranger:
EC is far, far, far less effective against tanks than AMF is against mages.
So why shouldn't NSC help balance that out on the mage side?
So you don't have a problem with NSCs reducing AMF directly as much as it being a nontattoo item?
May 7 2009 8:00 PM EDT
def of OP = Hal
May 7 2009 9:43 PM EDT
Thanks for putting it into preservative for me.
I think the power of the NSC is far more than any normal item, it should be a tattoo function.
Imagine if the power of the RoS was available in a glove.
It compares that minions ED spell level to the casters DM and offers percent pure blockage of DM effects based upon its +. Upgrade to xx and your protected 100% vs certain amount of DM, anything over works normally vs you.
Would that be overpowered? It is close to how I see the NSC.
I guess my Cloak of Protection is a tank equivalent of the NSC.
Actually, moving the RoS DM resistance ability from a constant level-defendant reduction to a more percentage based reduction like the NSC would be much weaker.
EDs flourish in multi-minion situations so exp dilution is expected. Now lets imagine a 4 minion team each training an ED with 16% resistance to DM. That means a reasonable DM would knock out all but 16% of their Enchantments. Unless the 40% tattoo level resistance is less than 16% of enchantment level we don't want it. That would actually be a nerf.
actually, I'm cool with an item like that. Just have it compete with the Corn and I don't see why it wouldn't be balanced.
May 7 2009 10:27 PM EDT
And that is why you and I disagree on whether the NSC are OP.
May 7 2009 10:30 PM EDT
Obviously the 40% the ROS gives would have to be titrated towards single minions. Probably a higher % for single minions.
If the end result was the same as what the ROS gives would you want it?
And let them use a tattoo as well?
Not especially. Single minions that train vast amounts of EDs are obviously using a familiar. I would not sacrifice the Corn slot for a DM resistance helm. The math is simple:
bonus levels from
HUGE AS * corn > mediocre DM * corn
Even without AoF, the Corn gives me much more effect than 16-20% resistance to DM would give me. You'll need something like 30-40% DM resistance for it to even break even in effect. So yeah, I wouldn't use the hypothetical item even as a single minion.
May 7 2009 10:40 PM EDT
What if it was not a corn, but was armor?
Instead of using the BoE and 5% you got this.
Remember one can wear the BoE, SB, and COI with the NSC.
May 7 2009 10:41 PM EDT
You ignored my post, Ranger.
May 7 2009 10:41 PM EDT
Now I am sorry, off on a tangent.
We just have to agree to have 2 different opinions on the NSC.
Why would I train a huge ED on a single minion without a familiar?
And that's hardly a fair comparison. NSC compete with AGs. On a familiar it competes with the biggest DD boosting item available. Sure if such an item was allowed and didn't compete with anything I would love it. Solely cause I get a new benefit.
May 7 2009 10:55 PM EDT
Then boost EC as I have stated a few times.
May 7 2009 10:56 PM EDT
Why boost EC so you can nerf NSC? Why not leave them as is?
May 7 2009 11:00 PM EDT
I said EC was unloved long before the NSC came out. Long before OB.
AMF is fine where it was before the NSC. It is free always hitting damage.
If AMF is not fine, then change the ratios.
But to introduce an item that nullifies that much of an opponents spell is not really seen unless we move up to tattoo status.
just drop 1 AC from the NSC and we can all sing a happy song and laugh at the higher upgrade curve for NSC.
We are happy people singing a happy song.
NSC needs to be nerfed because it was wrong.
Hooray for Jon,
Hooray for NS,
We are happy people sing a happy song.
I just realised I posted non-sense in the debate forum...
In all honesty, the NSC is probably ok. I think AG mage beats NSC mage in a way, so there is still a counter.
May 8 2009 6:33 PM EDT
But Ranger, you admitted AMF was clearly superior to EC; NSC brings them to a similar level. Why is that a bad thing?
EC has an item counter in the TSA/BoM/AoM/TG/ToA/EC/EB/EG.
AMF has an item counter in the CoI/AG/NSC.
DM has an item counter in the Corn/RoS.
Honestly? I think it's pretty good as is. Why nerf one of AMF's few counters when EC has so many counters to an EO that is weaker than AMF to begin with?
AMF _needs_ the NSC counter to even up the score a bit. It's unfair to say "My AMF should be very effective against mages and have few counters" but "EC should be only somewhat effective against tanks and have four times as many counters to stop it."
May 8 2009 6:42 PM EDT
It really does not matter much how many counters there are if one is super bootylicious. Effectively making millions of levels of AMF worthless. And gets more powerful with each level of DD. For virtually the same NW.
And FYI, I agree the TSA is OP. Regeneration and strength. A bonus bonanza.
I guess I would feel better about the NSC if it did not nerf ALL that AMF.
If it lowered AMF by a %, instead of 100%. So that even lower AMFs cast for something and the dreaded (0.00) does not come up.
But, it is what it is.
I think the test I was just doing says something about CB.
Carl Carlson (The Knighthood II) Kwai Chang (F) (+) (death by jabberwocky) Carl Carlson 6 11:34 PM EDT
master po cast Antimagic Field on Leonard (0.90)
1.3m mpr and a 2.7m RoBF (Power 1,835,710) can beat a MPR 3,244,811 (3.8PR) four minion team. That same 3.8m pr team can do this.
Vectoidz (F) (+) 2 1 0 0 66.67 8.7
That appears to be a defensive win against Vectoidz, the biggest archer in game, with a PR of 7,128,664 and bow worth 280m.
This is an amazing example of how the unbalanced strats are both powerful and weak. My chars starting score for this exercise was in the 500k-700k range.
To truly be overpowered an item has to be outside even these bounds, anything else is just in need of slight effect adjustment.
May 13 2009 11:54 PM EDT
novice, is it just me? Or is dudemus's Jiggy not equipped?
May 13 2009 11:55 PM EDT
It's a great example of the "rock, paper, scissors" balancing act that is CB. And I like Carl Carlson. That team makes an easy target for my admittedly one-sided team... which further shows the point.
damnit... how did I miss that... I thought it was odd I was killing him in round 6
May 13 2009 11:56 PM EDT
Before we get ahead of ourselves here:
Tal Destra (Jack Knoff) dudemus (Kwai Chang) end loan of grasshopper 10:48 PM EDT
dudemus (Kwai Chang) 184.108.40.206 Tal Destra (Jack Knoff) loan grasshopper ($128149064) 9:45 PM EDT
May 13 2009 11:58 PM EDT
About Vectoidz however, that is a true defensive win.
Without AA's MoD on my tank, Dudemus' JKF wipes the floor with my archer, stands it back up, blows and watches him fall down again. Then he rinses and repeats a few more times as I almost never hit his JKF.
The reason dude got that win is because of the way evasion is stacking now, it's the exact counter to vectoidz strat, if dudemus last till melee, he wins.
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