jiggy with uc better than jiggy with evasion (in General)


Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 20 2009 3:03 PM EDT

i untrained all my evasion and put it into uc just to see how it all acts under the current system. here are my results:

with evasion post stats are:

uc ~ 3560
melee bonus to hit ~ 213
evasion ~ 150

with uc trained we have:

uc ~ 3840
melee bonus to hit ~ 230
evasion ~ 148

you trade two points in evasion for some pretty hefty boosts to uc and your bonus to hit. i am not sure at the lower levels how much this holds true, but at this level i think uc would be better always.

jiggy is over 7.1m while i had a little over 7.2 million xp in uc or evasion.

QBOddBird May 20 2009 3:06 PM EDT

is EG still better than HG for UC?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 20 2009 3:10 PM EDT

i need to rent some post changes and see if it still holds true. i feel that the eg's would still be better though.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] May 20 2009 3:14 PM EDT

The HG become better again for a long while. Even including the shield penalty. I believe somewhere around 250 UC effect they become the same again.

Colonel Custard May 20 2009 3:14 PM EDT

I would have expected that Junctioning UC is better than Junctioning Evasion anyway, though I wasn't really sure I could back it up with numbers. I am a bit surprised at how little Evasion is lost, but I guess it makes sense, given the upgrade curve. The higher your levels get, the less the extra Evasion XP would outpace straight UC, I think.

AdminNightStrike May 20 2009 3:17 PM EDT

The fact that you don't lose much Evasion is the *actual* bug that we can't easily fix. Right now, there's no excessive evasion granted. If that changes in the wild, then we'll have to find a better fix. Just be forewarned -- getting that much evasion isn't by design. You're getting the benefits of evasion coming over one time too many, and right now, it's too hard to stop that without breaking DB. Don't be surprised when/if that drops.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 20 2009 3:20 PM EDT

so whereas the dex penalty will get greater over time causing more xp losss. will the inherent uc bug get more lenient over time or is it more of a flat effect?

Invader Sye May 20 2009 3:26 PM EDT

The highest HG's [+16](named) in the game would grant (28) 287,864 to your UC

If you had EG's [+15] you would need 1,919,094 points to UC to surpass the effects of the HG.

(287,864 / 0.15 x 100 = 1,919,094)
-substitute (0.15) with the bonus your EG's give to find out how much you would need.

Hope this helps ^_^

p.s. i don't know if i'm right

AdminTitan May 20 2009 3:26 PM EDT

I'm thinking what he is saying, is that you get the UC bonus twice. So, as you train more UC, your evasion from UC is going to outrun regular evasion because of the way evasion curve is.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 20 2009 3:29 PM EDT

i have asked for some hg for testing, perhaps i can post some numbers. my eg's are plus 14 named, so if anyone has the same level hg's and can send them over that would be great!

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 20 2009 3:30 PM EDT

"The highest HG's [+16](named) in the game would grant (28) 287,864 to your UC"

The HG would increase your Current UC effect by (26). The amount of extra level that would supply depends on your current UC, due to its increasing curve.

The higher your natural UC, the more level a HG or Gi gives.

AdminTitan May 20 2009 3:33 PM EDT

Dudemus could you post your before bonus UC?

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] May 20 2009 3:33 PM EDT

No, the bug boost getting granted to evasion is that the UC minion's evasion in post battle stats is also being junctioned over to the JKF by level, even though he already gets the boost to his evasion from the UC boosting his own UC level.

In actuality this boost is rather small and it should never grant as much evasion as actually training real evasion.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 20 2009 3:35 PM EDT

if i remove my aoj and just get inherent evasion on jiggy it is 2960 in post battle stats.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 20 2009 3:36 PM EDT

"In actuality this boost is rather small and it should never grant as much evasion as actually training real evasion."

it won't grant as much as real evasion with the 40 percent penalty or non-penalized?

Colonel Custard May 20 2009 3:43 PM EDT

"The HG would increase your Current UC effect by (26). The amount of extra level that would supply depends on your current UC, due to its increasing curve.

The higher your natural UC, the more level a HG or Gi gives."

This is correct.

At (148) base UC, named HGs +16 would boost this to (174).
(148) 3,670,362
(174) 5,069,702
Effectively, this is a boost of 1,399,340 levels, or 38.1% of level. This sort of boost could be matched by an AoF, though Amulets obviously can't be junctioned onto a Jiggy. I couldn't see this boost matched by EGs. If you were to get named EGs +18 (considerably more expensive than the +16 HGs), you'd need their DX/Skill boost somehow applied twice to get a 38% boost.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] May 20 2009 3:52 PM EDT

Ok, I just calculated the amount of evasion granted through training UC junctioned over to the JKF and the amount of evasion granted through training evasion as a skill itself.

What I found was rather surprising. Training evasion will always grant you more evasion levels that training UC unless HG is involved. Then it is potentially possible to gain more actual evasion levels from UC than evasion.

Using no gear you would gain 33.3% of your evasion through UC and another 20% from the bug. with evasion it is 60%. As you increase elven gear it evasion it pulls ahead farther but it is still proportionally the same.

All in all UC is far better to train.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 20 2009 4:16 PM EDT

would not having the 40 percent penalty make that much of a difference?

three4thsforsaken May 20 2009 4:24 PM EDT

why does evasion only work at 60%? Doesn't it calculate evasion level based on the Jiggy's dex?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 20 2009 4:25 PM EDT

no, it is based on minion dex.

QBRanger May 20 2009 4:26 PM EDT

3/4ths, that is the big hoopla going on now.

No, it uses the minions dex on the minion training it, then goes to the Jiggy.

QBRanger May 20 2009 4:27 PM EDT

So, by association, one would expect BL to do the same.

That is you only have to train a base BL on your minion to get full effect on the Jiggy. If that minion has a 20 strength.

At least that would be keeping things consistent.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 20 2009 4:33 PM EDT

ok, here are some numbers for the h g to e g question.

with evasion post stats are:

u c ~ 3560
melee bonus to hit ~ 213
evasion ~ 150

with e g named plus 14 we have:

u c ~ 3840
melee bonus to hit ~ 230
evasion ~ 148

with h g, plus 13 we have:

u c ~ 3940
melee bonus to hit ~ 236
evasion ~ 152

h g's are better again, i think the elven gear was adding to the u c level twice or something before the recent fixes.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 20 2009 4:34 PM EDT

to be clear, the first set is with evasion trained & eg's but the last two are with uc trained on the junction minion.

QBRanger May 20 2009 4:35 PM EDT

Q:

And this likely has been answered a few times, with so many posts I lost track.

Is the HGs adding to the minions UC, then that improved level is moving on to the Jiggy that is already getting a bonus from the HGs?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 20 2009 4:38 PM EDT

at this point i do not think the hg's are double dipping unless it is solely the evasion boost then i think they may be. not for the uc level or the bonus to hit number though. nem might have a better answer for that though.

QBRanger May 20 2009 4:42 PM EDT

Are the EGs double dipping?

If so or not, it is an interesting question as to whether or not they should.

Before the amulet came out, this was moot as the skill slot was occupied.

Now, things are more complicated.

I personally believe the base, trained XP of the skill, whether UC or evasion should transfer directly to the minion. Regardless of an items or dexterity on the minion. Then a new level of UC or evasion or both gets calculated, THEN items get applied.

For BL, the same thing, the base trained level of it goes to the JKF (it is the only familiar that can benefit from it) and then any pluses from elven gear get applied. That NEW level gets compared to the JKFs strength and a BL 0.xx determined.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 20 2009 4:47 PM EDT

i don't think any items are double dipping, that seems to be fixed. what i think is double dipping is inherent evasion from the uc skill.

as for whether it should, i tend to err on the side of make the code easier to understand, implement, maintain and debug and then boost or nerf things that need help/balancing. the old kiss principle.
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