Is the JKF now too powerful given BL? (in General)

QBRanger May 21 2009 11:18 AM EDT

As dude has shown the Jiggy can hit for 5 times a round doing up to 500k a hit.

Along with all its evasion, largest hp for a familiar, high dex and strength.

All this in one bootylicious package.

With BL, is the JKF now way too powerful???

Spoiler alert below
Just kidding. I think the JKF is now a very nice choice.

Just had to do it :)

Marlfox [Cult of the Valaraukar] May 21 2009 11:20 AM EDT

Nice! :)

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 21 2009 11:22 AM EDT

the big kicker now is will uc ever see a buff and will bl jiggy then be too much? ; )

Cube May 21 2009 11:29 AM EDT

Haha, that was great.

QBRanger May 21 2009 11:30 AM EDT


I thought a bit about that.

The best solution I can see is to give the CGI inate BL.

That may solve problems.

In CB1, did not the TSA have a bit of BL inate to it?

Little Anthony May 21 2009 11:35 AM EDT

against one of the biggest Jkf, its damage against me is purely horrible, i don't care how many time it hits, it needs a big buff.

QBRanger May 21 2009 11:38 AM EDT

Yes LA,

That I agree.

I do think it needs endurance back. Not a huge amount but perhaps 25% more hp or damage reduction.

However, their is a fine line between making it a supertank incapable of dying in ranged, vs having it be nothing more than a paper shield.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 21 2009 11:40 AM EDT

"The best solution I can see is to give the CGI inate BL."

that would help with most of the gaps, but a uc user junctioned to a jiggy wouldn't be able to use the bl skill or the gi.

IndependenZ May 21 2009 11:43 AM EDT

I haven't junctioned anything to my jiggy as of yet, but watching and reading the forums... Jiggy can have all kinds of skills. I've been running a UC tank for ages, and although it has UC and Evasion in one skill, I can never transfer for example BL to that tank. To my Jiggy, yes, so in a way the familiar can have more options and is thus more viable than an oldskool UC tank.

A CGi that gives some BL sounds like a good 'solution' to me. Don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining, I love the Jiggy the way it works now. It's just that I kinda feel my regular UC tank pales in comparison.

QBRanger May 21 2009 11:44 AM EDT

I know Dude, but not every solution I guess is perfect.

As you said, we boost up UC damage and the JKF gets a horrible superboost then with BL.

However, if a minion uses UC along with using a JKF, then the JKF will get a much higher UC level anyway, doing more damage with more evasion than normal anyway.

Of all the thing I thought of, this was one of the better possibilities.

And give the CGI a much needed boost as well.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 21 2009 11:46 AM EDT

gl & co. have the best long-term solution in my mind. hal's damage from the wiki works in this manner:

Elven Long Bow (ELB) damage modifier, and Plus-to-Hit (PTH) values, increase with the level of the HF.

while the jiggy damage is based on the uc effect which takes more tat levels to increase over time. the jiggy will only far further behind other familiars as tat levels continue to increase. damage and bonus to hit numbers for uc need to scale on the xp rather than the effect in my humble opinion.

actually, the darned uc effect just needs to be made linear for uc and that would fix everything.

QBRanger May 21 2009 11:46 AM EDT

And I would make the BL only work if the person has the UC skill.

Or not. Depending on whether a TSA vs CGI with BL is too much.

QBRanger May 21 2009 11:51 AM EDT

However, if you scale up evasion as well, then the Jiggy will not be hit much at all in missile making it too powerful.

While the Jiggy needs evasion, it cannot be the same level as the HF as the HF has the same dexterity. One can boost the Jigs UC with training more skill or using HG, while the HF cannot get any bonus to its PTH.

Right now, with a 1M more tattoo than you, my HF and tank miss your Jiggy quite a lot in missile. My bow, with its 227 PTH is falling further behind in the ability to hit JKFs.

If we boost UC to a linear damage model great, however, keep the evasion as it currently is since it can be upgraded far easier than weapons and/or the HF.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 21 2009 11:57 AM EDT

well evasion is converted from 1/3 of uc level (not effect) so even if uc was made a linear progression, you are still going to then take that number to the evasion table which is built on a curve, no? now the jiggy's evasion is compounded by two curves (the uc level curve then take 1/3 of that and apply the evasion level curve), which is one of the reasons it doesn't keep up real well at all.

i am not saying that it might not need adjustment if this was done, but i do believe it would fix more than it would break and it is broken now, in my opinion.

QBRanger May 21 2009 12:03 PM EDT


So just change the UC table, keep the evasion table as it. 2 seperate tables.

I get it.

Colonel Custard May 21 2009 12:08 PM EDT

I like the idea of CGi giving BL! That would make it cool again!

However, that basically equates to multiplying damage by 1.75, which is a more temporary than long-term solution. Because the curve will still steepen, and the rate of damage growth would remain the same relative to how it is now.

I also like the idea discussed in the other thread, relating damage multiplier to levels rather than effect. However, I think CGi granting BL would make UC a little too good if its damage increase were to turn linear as well. Or maybe it could take 1,000 levels of UC for one x, to balance out the damage.

However, I'm not for linearization of UC across the board (that is, for pth). I'm not sure if dude was implying that, but I think that goes counter to the rest of things. PTH gets more expensive on everything as it increases; if we want damage to increase linearly with everything else, we should keep PTH increasing on a curve with everything else.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 21 2009 12:11 PM EDT

the bonus to hit on the hal is done that way cc, see above.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 21 2009 12:13 PM EDT

you can get an idea of the difference it makes between the two familiars bonus to hit in this table:

Colonel Custard May 21 2009 12:27 PM EDT

Well, maybe the way that the Hal gains PTH needs to be adjusted. Because, currently, it seems that it's really on a course to outrun weapons. A Hal at 10mil level will have 300+ PTH, but selling it wouldn't even yield enough money to bring an ELB up that high. If we adjust Jiggy to be on pace with Hal's PTH but leave all the weapons' PTH behind, it will just be another unbalanced area of the game, and will make actual tanks non-viable.

Little Anthony May 21 2009 12:53 PM EDT

JkF super boost defense against archer (range damage). That would be nice!

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] May 21 2009 1:08 PM EDT

"against one of the biggest Jkf, its damage against me is purely horrible, i don't care how many time it hits, it needs a big buff."

LA against a tank without DM, not a JKF, with your PL and your Wall you would be decreasing damage by 77.5%. It's not like the JKF is just hitting like crap, it's just you have a really nice wall and PL setup there. Although, I could see a small buff to damage.

"JkF super boost defense against archer (range damage). That would be nice!"

JKF's are already amazing against those of use who used ranged weapons, but aren't spending USD on them.

AdminNightStrike May 21 2009 1:28 PM EDT

>It's just that I kinda feel my regular UC tank pales in comparison.

That's because it does :)

IndependenZ May 21 2009 3:03 PM EDT

Ouch. Burnnn.

*unlearns UC and starts collecting regular tank equip*

QBRanger May 21 2009 3:26 PM EDT


Regular tanks are also underpowered compared to HFs or JKFs unless you have USD backed weapons.

three4thsforsaken May 21 2009 4:51 PM EDT

not really. Anywhere from 30 to 50 million weapon could probably last you from low to lower-high game.

QBRanger May 21 2009 4:54 PM EDT

If your over 3M MPR, a 30M weapon will be quite lacking vs evasions/JKFs as well as DBs you will find.

And you will do less damage than mages do even vs AMF with the NSC.

I have a 32M ELS on my tank as a melee weapon. I hit most evasion minions 1 time a round for 500k damage at most. That certainly does not cut it over 3M MPR. I miss some evasions/JKFs.

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