AMF is useful? (in General)


three4thsforsaken May 26 2009 1:02 PM EDT

Today, I was looking at my dinky 3 million AMF and thought, "Maybe Ranger's right and AMF is useless at small levels".

So I started attacking all the biggest familiars and looking at my fight list to see how much it actually helps. Here is what I got. My AMF is about 4 million in effect.

---

Nightstrike
Canti cast Antimagic Field on A Named Electric Familiar (0.37)
A Named Electric Familiar lvl 6,363,573

NWO
Canti cast Antimagic Field on Chaos's familiar (0.30)
A Steel Familiar lvl 8,903,869 owned by PoisoN (NWO)

Koy
Canti cast Antimagic Field on battle worn R2 unit (0.20)
battle worn R2 unit lvl 7,911,481 owned by DrAcO5676 (Koyaanisqatsi)

Little Anthony
Canti cast Antimagic Field on Little Anthony (0.13)
about 8 million raw SG

Aztroll
Canti cast Antimagic Field on Ra (0.10)
10 million raw in CoC

Freed
Canti cast Antimagic Field on Doodle Doooooo (0.22)



I don't know. It doesn't seem that bad. Sure it's not very effective in the far end, but that's literally 9-10 million in RAW trained DDs when I've only invested 3 million. And their NSC are a little abnormally large.

Most of my fight list gets around .20 - .30 in effect easily, because in truth very few people have over 7 million DD. So I like my little 3 million AMF. It's quite useful because 20% reduction does a long way with 24 million HP. I feel my fightlist would be much smaller if I didn't have it.

Something you can chew on. A the bare least, it shows that AMF isn't useless, just not as powerful as many would like.




QBRanger May 26 2009 1:06 PM EDT

Nightstrike nor NWO are using the AoJ and the ability to use the NSC with it.

It is a strategy problem, and does not signify your AMF is good vs them.

If they strap on a set of +14 NSC, even unnamed, your AMF decreases by about 1/3 to 1/2.

So in reality, your AMF should be between .1 and .2.

And what about novice's familiar. What is your 3M levels of AMF doing vs him since you and he are fighting the same people/level?

QBRanger May 26 2009 1:08 PM EDT

But I have said, a very large AMF is not bad. It is that lower to middle levels of AMF that are nearly useless.

There are better places to spend 3M levels IMO.

three4thsforsaken May 26 2009 1:13 PM EDT

I have a 0.07 against Novice, the guy with the biggest Familiar in the game and the biggest NSC in the game.

I suppose I should be asking, how much should 3 million trained AMF really affect these guys?

If I gave NS and NWO +14 NSC they would have 0.23 and 0.16 effect respectively. Now is this fair? Well, I've invested about half and a third as much as they have, so yes, I think it's fair. In fact, I would think it would be unfair if they have that much DD and my dinky little AMF took off as much as they did intially.

From this, I'm starting to feel that the curve for AMF is a bit too powerful, as you could see how much it would hurt someone if they didn't have NSC. I mean I would have over 0.2 on Novice! 20% reduction with so little investment.

three4thsforsaken May 26 2009 1:15 PM EDT

Oh, and we haven't even addressed backlash :D

QBRanger May 26 2009 1:16 PM EDT

3M is not a "little" investment.

3M is a nice sized investment. And yes, I do think 20% vs Novice's familiar is not out of line.

Novice suggested something that I will agree with.

I think the NSC should effect AMF backlash only. Not the AMF ratio.

IE if without any NSC your AMF would do .20, it does that to determine the damage done to you.

If he has +15 NSC, unnamed, he takes backlash as if the AMF was only .05.

three4thsforsaken May 26 2009 1:23 PM EDT

3 million is relatively small compared to pretty much everything else I've compared it to in this thread. I don't think it's even hits half of anyone there.

I would be concerned if a half of investment of EOs shut down damage types. I feel damage should be able to overpower EOs pretty easily unless they are similar in exp investment.

QBRanger May 26 2009 1:26 PM EDT

Equal xp of AMF vs a DD will give you .5.

With NSC, .35.

But if you believe AMF vs the NSC is appropriate, excellent!

I would like to see how the damage reduction is for your AMF vs some of those tattoos vs no AMF vs those same ones.

To make no AMF, you would have to lose a few battles due to using a MgS on that minion.

QBRanger May 26 2009 1:41 PM EDT

One question to ask:

Vs someone like Koy, would reducing the AMF you have to 100k (for decay) and boosting your AS 2.9M or putting 2.9M hp on your enchanter be better than the status you have now?

Would losing the .2 AMF make you take more damage that is countered by 3+M HP between your familiar and enchanter?

three4thsforsaken May 26 2009 1:50 PM EDT

No it wouldn't.

I have 24 million HP now. Having .2 would give my exactly 30 effective HP (24/0.8).

3 million more AS would give me about 3.5 more HP. That's 27.5 HP.

So that's 2.5 million HP difference, about 10% efficiency difference.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 26 2009 2:08 PM EDT

A Small AMF is nearly required (unless you opt for a front 20HP minion backed by PL...), just to stop Decay.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 26 2009 2:22 PM EDT

:D Saw the 20HP front minion in another thread. ;) Add an AoI and go to town.

I'm siding with Ranger here, AMF (all the EO's really) aren't that usefull unless they are the focus of your strategy. Small amounts on DM won't do much (unless it's to pick off base SS or the like), nor will EC (it would be different if zero STR/DEX actually ment something though), and casual AMF is only for Decay, which can be countered by a 20HP minion and PL (and who *doesn't* have PL...).

A couple of days ago I started a spreadsheet to mees with effective AMF and HP to DD levels, to see how much 'time to live' HP versus DD gave you, and how dropping HP for AMF changed things. Maybe I'll dig that out and see if I can get it working.

The other side of the coin, is that being (generally) unreducable, if you do specialise in an EO, it's very very effective.

But they seem to be all or nothing expenditures.

QBRanger May 26 2009 2:22 PM EDT

But against .1 AMF more AS would indeed help you.

Also, the AS would help vs both tanks/mages/RBF characters.

And what about DM?

If you fight a 8M DM how much HP do you then have? And how much does the .2 AMF then save.

I figure 8M AMF would lower your hp to 16M. Which would give you 3.2M more effective HP with .2 AMF. About the same as raising your AS by 2.9M.

For me, it is all a numbers game.

Risk/reward.

Yes, certainly lowering your AMF to 100k or so and boosting your AS would lower you hp vs some of the lower level familiars. Where your AMF is already well over .25.

However, vs tanks and RBF characters it can do nothing but give you more hp.

Vs high DD spells, it may be a wash.

Vs high DD spells and large DMs, you would get more effective hp with more AS and a lower AMF.

QBRanger May 26 2009 2:27 PM EDT

Please note,

I am not saying AMF is useless.

However there is a "dead zone" of AMF level at the level I fight.

It is from about 100k to about 2-3M. Where the NSC just destroy most of the levels you get from AMF, making it not worth the expense of the spell.

Over 3M, it can be very effective, just far less than before the NSC came about.

Colonel Custard [SeeD] May 26 2009 2:33 PM EDT

I like it.

I think Decay provides very interesting game mechanics.

I still agree with Ranger that you have to make a pretty big investment to make AMF worthwhile. If you want to take out more than just base Decays, you've got a big gap to jump to get effectiveness.

And I don't even have 6 million levels (pre-boosting gear) across my whole team at 1.3mil MPR. 3 million AMF is nothing to fart at.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 26 2009 2:55 PM EDT

The Problem with AMF and EC is that the stats they compete with can be boosted by gear much more easily than they. Especially so for STR/DEX versus EC.

Where an equal XP expenditure of EO to Intrinsic/DD should get you a 50% reduction, it more than likely doesn't.

QBRanger May 26 2009 2:57 PM EDT

Here are some AMF levels vs DD levels in the upper ranks.

These are final levels boosted by items:

10M DD

1M AMF .1
2M AMF .16
3M AMF .22
4M AMF .26
5M AMF .31
6M AMF .35

9M DD

1M AMF .11
2M AMF .17
3M AMF .23
4M AMF .28
5M AMF .33

8M DD

1M AMF .12
2M AMF .19
3M AMF .25
4M AMF .31
5M AMF .36

7M DD

1M AMF .13
2M AMF .21
3M AMF .27
4M AMF .34
5M AMF .40

6m DD

1M AMF .14
2M AMF .23
3M AMF .31
4m AMF .38

Cube May 26 2009 4:15 PM EDT

Extreme example, but with Novice's NSC those numbers become

10M DD

1M AMF .00
2M AMF .00
3M AMF .03
4M AMF .07
5M AMF .12
6M AMF .16

9M DD

1M AMF .00
2M AMF .00
3M AMF .04
4M AMF .09
5M AMF .14

8M DD

1M AMF .00
2M AMF .00
3M AMF .06
4M AMF .12
5M AMF .17

7M DD

1M AMF .00
2M AMF .02
3M AMF .08
4M AMF .15
5M AMF .21

6m DD

1M AMF .00
2M AMF .04
3M AMF .12
4m AMF .19

QBRanger May 26 2009 4:22 PM EDT

I personally would not use Novice's NSC for comparison.

Here are the top 5 NSC:
charge arm [0] (+18) worth $47,792,312 owned by QBnovice (Dagobah)
A Set of Noldorin Spellcasters [0] (+16) worth $14,477,076 owned by Little Anthony (FTW)
Smelly Clusters [0] (+16) worth $14,477,076 owned by Freed (The Hens of Daze)
Silmarils 'The Jewels of Feanor' [0] (+15) worth $7,968,016 owned by AdminShade (Dagor-nuin-Giliath)
A Set of Noldorin Spellcasters [0] (+15) worth $7,968,016 owned by Sacredpeanut (FranticFeeda)

As you can see +15 is 8M which is not out of line for an investment in such a great item.

So I typically use +15 unnamed in most examples I use of this item.

Cube May 26 2009 4:31 PM EDT

I agree. I was just curious how it looked. If no one else does, I might make a table later and put more AMF, DD numbers in.

QBRanger May 26 2009 4:42 PM EDT

With +15 NSC

10M DD

1M AMF .00
2M AMF .01
3M AMF .07
4M AMF .11
5M AMF .16
6M AMF .20

9M DD

1M AMF .00
2M AMF .02
3M AMF .08
4M AMF .13
5M AMF .18

8M DD

1M AMF .00
2M AMF .04
3M AMF .10
4M AMF .16
5M AMF .21

7M DD

1M AMF .00
2M AMF .06
3M AMF .12
4M AMF .19
5M AMF .25

6m DD

1M AMF .00
2M AMF .08
3M AMF .16
4m AMF .23

three4thsforsaken May 26 2009 5:17 PM EDT

These graphs are pretty useful. Definitely need to be put in the wiki.

PoisoN May 26 2009 5:24 PM EDT

I'd say three4thsforsaken is right. Some key points that come into my mind:

Mages are generally less good armored so the backslash I see in my logs is most of the times 1:1, so .3 means 30% damage for the spell caster. Used by a heavily armored team I often receive more damage than I can deal out.

Losing one really important armor slot by filling it with NSCs is another bad idea. 8m for a 15% reduction of an enchantment used from such a few people seriously is IMHO a waste of cash. Instead of them are AGs and EGs useful against every opponent. For my team NSCs would mean a 16m investment, unless you use paypal. It would take a really long time to get that amount for a minimal impact on your teams defense ability.

And some nice bonus facts: With the exception of DM it can be easily combined with almost everything. DD spells and familiars are quite popular so you usually have a huge group of victims as well.

Nevertheless it is not without downsides but a worthy alternative to DM.

QBRanger May 26 2009 6:37 PM EDT

I doubt any mage will be using EG.

AG are nice, however they do cause a lot of AMF backlash.

Therefore I believe as do a lot of people NSC are the only real choice for a mage.

While AMF is good, unless it is at a very high level, there is too much wasted xp in it.

IE:

Vs +15 NSC, one has to have an AMF to at least 1.5M levels before you see any benefit vs an 8M DD. That is 1.5M levels of dead xp. So unless you play on spending 4M or so levels, I would not even bother. I would use that xp into something else, perhaps more HP, perhaps more AS etc....

PoisoN, I do not see how NSC for your character is a 16M investment. If your typing about the AoJ + NSC, you get more than that using a HoC and possibly evasion also. A smallish investment given the return you get. Extra round of combat, less AMF effect, evasion on the familiar, possible DB usage on the familiar.

And it is not a 15% reduction in the enchantment. It is 100% reduction to a point. Then 0% reduction. But that xp to a point can be considerable. xp that I believe can be used far better somewhere else.

While AMF can be used with EC, it takes a lot of xp just to make AMF work now. That leaves little left for EC and an attack and spells. Unless you decide, like Dudemus just did, to focus on those 2 spells with a familiar, most do not use AMF/EC combo.

DM, however, works vs both tanks and mages. There are characters that do not use ED spells, however they are uncommon.

Cube May 26 2009 10:17 PM EDT

Made a google Doc, you can edit the DD level as well as the size of the NSC

Please don't screw it up - I don't know how to stop people from doing that, but here goes.
http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=rjvlxaEFub-DnJdOs97slsg

PoisoN May 27 2009 3:03 AM EDT

Cube: http://docs.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=86152

Ranger:
AGs vs. NSCs
Case 1:
Me AGs Opponent DM.
I have reduced health, therefore I can kill faster due the DD bonus.
Case 2:
Me NSCs Opponent DM.
I still have reduced health. The NSCs do nothing for me.
Case 3:
Me AGs Opponent AMF.
My DD level goes up, the AMF is reduced slightly. My health is still quite high, so I could take some backslash.
Me NSCs Opponent AMF.
Health not reduced. Low level AMF will fail, high level AMF still could deal some serious damage, since NSCs are capped at +15-16.

While AGs give a bonus to every situation no matter what strategy the opponent has, NSCs do not, so I still say, NSCs are not that kind of a good alternative.

Concerning the investment. At least for me it is not that easily to change items. +15 NSCs cost roughly 8m+, additionally they can't be forged and you have to buy them. I got two DD sources who need them. And they are just useful versus opponents with a low AMF... hmmm.

About the wasted XP you're right, but so are most other abilities. I'd be interested in your calculation the other way around, would a 1.5m DD spell be any useful against a 8m AMF? Would a 2mil DM be useful agains a 10m AS?

>> While AMF can be used with EC, it takes a lot of xp just to make AMF work now. That leaves little left for EC and an attack and spells. Unless you decide, like Dudemus just did, to focus on those 2 spells with a familiar, most do not use AMF/EC combo.

My DD spell is expensive as well. I'd love it to spend more for HP, or evasion or something like that, but I won't if any tiny AMF kills me :)

>> DM, however, works vs both tanks and mages. There are characters that do not use ED spells, however they are uncommon.

That's why I've chosen this, but you're very vulnerable to strong offensive strategies and teams without EDs.

QBRanger May 27 2009 11:18 AM EDT

PoisoN,

I can see your point about AG vs NSC. However, why do most mages, nearly every one, use NSC?

When I was running a mage, a while ago, the NSC added targets while the AGs actually made me lose a couple to increased AMF backlash.

Also:
"About the wasted XP you're right, but so are most other abilities. I'd be interested in your calculation the other way around, would a 1.5m DD spell be any useful against a 8m AMF? Would a 2mil DM be useful agains a 10m AS? "

Yes, the most wasted xp is of course dexterity of a tank vs enchanters/mages with 20 dex. But I think nobody in the top ranks now will even try using a sub 3M DD spell with all the 3+M AMFs out there, even with NSC. And a 2M DM will certainly be useful vs a 10M AS.

In fact, my puny 600k effect DM is helping me vs Novice's 15M+ AS. Even a few less hp can make all the difference in a battle.

Unless the person has a RoS and you do not reach its cap, all DM is useful.

But it is futile to compare the NSC to the RoS. One is an item easily obtained and upgrade, the other is a tattoo. A huge difference.

QBOddBird May 27 2009 12:49 PM EDT


I still think AMF is at an appropriate strength, and agree with 3/4.

After all, you can get over 100% STR boost and over 50% DX boost using various armors for a tank; EC can only really get a boost from SB and the Corn. It's a much more effective counter to EC than the NSC is to AMF. (not to mention AMF protects against wild card Decay)

Of the three EOs, I would say they rank in strength as:

1. DM
2. AMF
3. EC

PearsonTritonRaveshaw May 27 2009 10:30 PM EDT

My AMF usually cuts big DD spells around my MPR in half. I have 1.1m MPR and a 1.6m AMF. I rarely ever see below 0.30 in my battle logs.

QBRanger May 28 2009 1:43 AM EDT

Yes,

Your AMF is very high compared to your MPR.

What percentage of your targets use the NSC? Almost all mages use them near the top.

If someone was 4.4M MPR that would be over 6M AMF. Which is very helpful at the top ranks.

However, if you had 1/2 that AMF, it would be much less helpful.

PearsonTritonRaveshaw May 28 2009 3:23 AM EDT

Three people on my ten person fight list use Noldorin Spellcasters.
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