Fireball! (in General)


three4thsforsaken June 2 2009 2:14 PM EDT

The Wounded Horse takes damage from his own Fireball (189757)!
The Wounded Horse's Fireball hit Canti [506033], Canti's familiar [298636]


The Wounded Horse takes damage from his own Fireball (203311)!
The Wounded Horse's Fireball hit Canti [423413], Canti's familiar [392607]


The Wounded Horse takes damage from his own Fireball (216865)!
The Wounded Horse's Fireball hit Canti [542139], Canti's familiar [358084]


The Wounded Horse takes damage from his own Fireball (230419)!
The Wounded Horse's Fireball hit Canti [502555], Canti's familiar [620870]


The Wounded Horse takes damage from his own Fireball (243973)!
The Wounded Horse's Fireball hit Canti [425894], Canti's familiar [371274]


The Wounded Horse takes damage from his own Fireball (451803)!
The Wounded Horse's Fireball hit Canti's familiar [856951]
---

This is Guernica's 12 million FB in ranged.

FB isn't very good right now :/

QBRanger June 2 2009 2:19 PM EDT

What is your AMF vs it?

QBJohnnywas June 2 2009 2:19 PM EDT

About the equivalent of an X3000 Morg with ten million strength, hitting double strikes.

QBRanger June 2 2009 2:19 PM EDT

It do think it would do a bit more damage if he used the NSC instead of the BG.

However he does use a HF and likely that is his main damage source.

QBRanger June 2 2009 2:20 PM EDT

With a x2k ELS and 8M strength I do about 450k a hit.

And remember, one cannot dodge a fireball.

three4thsforsaken June 2 2009 2:24 PM EDT

I get .25 in AMF. AMF is quite effective.

The think that gets me is the 12 million RAW levels of FB in that. Had it been str, one could easily come out with 20-24 million Str after bonuses.

It's hardly worth the exp investment. As GL said, it's about as powerful as an X3000 Morg with 10 million str. So that's about 5-6 million invested str, pre-bonus. Half as much exp.

QBOddBird June 2 2009 2:28 PM EDT

My CoC hits that hard, harder. It just has to wait a couple rounds for it! :P

QBRanger June 2 2009 2:34 PM EDT

Do not forget the dexterity xp investment as well as the NW investment.

three4thsforsaken June 2 2009 2:44 PM EDT

Ranger, are you trying to convince me that this is a fair 12 million RAW level investment?

Just making sure.

AdminTitan June 2 2009 2:48 PM EDT

The Wounded Horse's Fireball hit Titan [1701541]

The other time it hit me it was for 1.61M. That's like me doing a little more than triple hitting with my SoD.

QBRanger June 2 2009 2:52 PM EDT

Given the fact he is:

1) not using the one item specifically designed to help vs AMF

and

2) it is free NW damage

Yes, it is not a bad usage of 12M raw levels.

The better question to ask, and I asked it before is:

http://www.carnageblender.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002mBs]

If you take away the following penalties:
Without a Helm of Clearsight 58%/55%/52%/49%/46% reductions in rounds 1/2/3/4/5 respectively
With a Helm of Clearsight 58%/55%/52%/49%/46%/0% reductions in rounds 1/2/3/4/5/6 respectively

He would be doing about double that damage. Then add in the NSC if he used them and you have a nice bit of damage.

So to answer your question:

YES, it is a good usage of 12 million raw levels.

The game nerfs that damage in ranged and he is nerfing it by not using the NSC.

Is that sure enough for you?

QBRanger June 2 2009 2:53 PM EDT

Correct link:

http://www.carnageblender.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002mBs

three4thsforsaken June 2 2009 2:54 PM EDT

Art, you're not counting melee hits are you?

Canti's familiar's Cone of Cold hit Hal [4765832]

This is me dealing more damage than all the damage dealt to me in the first post in one round. With less levels. :D

QBRanger June 2 2009 2:56 PM EDT

I agree, we need to reduce the ranged DD penalties. Not eliminate them but lower them perhaps by 1/2.

Also, you do a lot more damage but you have to wait 5 rounds before you attack. FB does not.

I would also advocate removing the FB friendly fire or make a skill that allows mages to get rid of it.

three4thsforsaken June 2 2009 2:56 PM EDT

Thanks Ranger, I was pretty sure you were agreeing with me but it's hard to tell sometimes. Why do you sound like you're arguing with me when we agree?

Lets remove ranged penalties.

QBRanger June 2 2009 2:59 PM EDT

Well a blanket statement that FB is too bad or too good or too hot etc.. is hard to appreciate unless one gets all the facts together.

Once it enters melee rounds, FB does pack a whollop.

And tanks do have to train at least 3 things while mages can only train 2.

But I completely agree in lowering the melee round penalties for DD. I would again say by 1/2. And getting rid of the friendly fire aspect of it.

I always wondered by FB has friendly fire in melee and the SoD with its explosive shots do not.

AdminTitan June 2 2009 3:00 PM EDT

To specify both of those hit were ranged.

QBRanger June 2 2009 3:01 PM EDT

However, the very last missile rounds is the same as melee rounds, that is no penalties.

three4thsforsaken June 2 2009 3:03 PM EDT

So we all agree that Fireball is only useful in melee and the last round of ranged.


Really guys?

QBRanger June 2 2009 3:05 PM EDT

It is useful in all phases of the battle. Combined with DM, it is exceptionally effective in winning.

Combined with another damage dealer and DM, it is incredibly powerful.

Just look at Sut. He has a moderate level FB, a supersized DM, and a HF. The DM keeps his opponents hp to those trained, the FB eliminates those low hp pesky minions/kill slots, and the HF does the main damage.

A very nice strategy. Its only foil is training a lot of native hp and staying away from ED spells completely.

QBRanger June 2 2009 3:08 PM EDT

But yes,

It does need a bit to help it along.

Lowering the ranged penalties for FB and MM by 1/2 and getting rid of the friendly fire aspect of FB would be a great start.

Or make a mage skill like was proposed a while ago letting mages train up to 1/5th their level to eliminate friendly fire.

AdminTitan June 2 2009 3:12 PM EDT

I think if you eliminate FBs friendly fire in melee, it is quite a fine spell.

Picasso June 2 2009 3:18 PM EDT

No... it's not great. Hence why I'm saving up to buy another minion and be able to equip both Mage specific and Hal specific gear as well as saving up millions of exp to retrain FB into something else. I'm not sure which DD, but it'll probably have to happen. I'm going to wait through this change month before I un-train it and before I get the rest of the money I'll need to hire. As it's my character, I'd be more than willing to provide copious amounts of data on my FB.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] June 2 2009 3:19 PM EDT

I agree that FB probably needs some help. But those numbers for ranged penalties are rather skewed. For one thing all ranged damage takes 40% penalty. The actual ranged damage penalty that FB and MM receive is 30% in the first round and then it lessens to 0.

I think that we should remove that penalty, but the 40% penalty should remain, just like it is there for archers.

QBRanger June 2 2009 3:24 PM EDT

I agree Nem.

At least remove the extra penalty FB and MM gets over archers and see if that helps.

But I think most people agree FB and MM in ranged, except the last round, it not powerful enough.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] June 2 2009 3:26 PM EDT

MM seems to be used quite a lot in the higher regions. As for a little extra help for FB I think a skill that eliminates the friendly fire would be a good idea. But not just removing it altogether.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] June 2 2009 4:07 PM EDT

"As GL said"

I call him mini-me. >;)

QBRanger June 2 2009 4:13 PM EDT

See,

I am not the only one.

three4thsforsaken June 2 2009 5:24 PM EDT

I don't know you guys. What I really want is Fireball to be a ranged DD, not another weak version of CoC. That means its damage must mostly be done in ranged.

So far, no one has disputed that Fireball cannot deal significant damage in ranged. Ranger has pointed out it can kill kill slots, but has little potential to kill things that actually have health.

Taking away friendly fire does not solve this problem, and is not conclusive to FBs purpose: to win in ranged. If you're using Fireball to deal damage in ranged, quite frankly you really shouldn't be using fireball.

I feel Fireball needs a serious damage buff one way or another in ranged or else will never be useful (which Jon might very well want). If necessary, even apply a damage penalty in melee.

Demigod June 2 2009 5:31 PM EDT

This might be coming from left field, I like the idea of a DD spell that weakens over time. Have FB start strong and scale down as the caster has to avoid hurting close-range teammates.

It's completely against the notion Jon had of extending fights longer, but some of us are still trying to win fights in ranged...

three4thsforsaken June 2 2009 5:32 PM EDT

edit: it's

"If you're using Fireball to deal damage in melee, quite frankly you really shouldn't be using fireball. "

AdminTitan June 2 2009 5:34 PM EDT

"I don't know you guys. What I really want is Fireball to be a ranged DD, not another weak version of CoC. That means its damage must mostly be done in ranged."

And what, have it hit weaker in melee, or what?

three4thsforsaken June 2 2009 5:36 PM EDT

If you read the entire post, you will notice I did suggest that.

AdminTitan June 2 2009 5:39 PM EDT

I don't like that idea at all. Jon pushes us to melee, so why would we have a ranged spell. At least MM and FB as the stand now double in damage when it hits melee.

three4thsforsaken June 2 2009 5:51 PM EDT

Using FB in melee as a form of damage is pointless. Sure it doubles in damage, but twice of pathetic is still not very large.

There is no reason as it stands, even without friendly fire, that you would actually invest in Fireball for melee damage. CoC fills that niche.

If fireball is to be useful in the future, it needs its own niche. Previously, that niche was ranged but not anymore. Jon has pushed this game towards melee, but it still is a very ranged orientated game, especially at the top.

Little Anthony June 2 2009 7:46 PM EDT

Little Anthony touches Noise [5088241]


Ho Ho Ho Ho!

Wizard'sFirstRule June 2 2009 7:56 PM EDT

like double buff from CoI and SB etc, and double penalty from armor during melee? (think of all the extra damage a +30 CoI would give to FB in melee...)

Untouchable June 2 2009 7:59 PM EDT

FB should only be able to fire in range only!
and its damage should be as it is now in melee

Untouchable June 2 2009 8:01 PM EDT

4 years of suckage and FINALLY people now discuss about it lol
ive always bee na fan of FB

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] June 2 2009 8:04 PM EDT

beer inspired fireball idea warning!

make fireball work at full damage during ranged. all of the damage is added together at the end to determine the level of an robf type burn over time that then diminishes each round of melee.

there is no friendly fire in ranged, but all of the slow burn affects all living critters in the battle.

Untouchable June 2 2009 8:12 PM EDT

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
no no here's a good idea

FB should have a 25% burning effect on enemies

Bob's Fireball hit Joe [100,000]
Joe has been lit on fire
Bob's Fireball hit Joe [100,000]
Joe burns from the fire [10,000]



thats all we need and FB shall own

Picasso June 2 2009 9:00 PM EDT

"thats all we need and FB shall own"

The point isn't to have FB own. In fact, that's never going to happen again. No way will Jon make for the SFBM strategy to make a comeback in popularity.

And that's fine.

All I/we want is for FB to be useful in some way. Give it a niche, or some way to make it work with a strategy instead of being the red-headed stepchild of DD spells. There have been some ideas listed here and in other forum posts. I'm sure they have been read by NS and (to some extent) by Jon.

Let's see what happens. =)

three4thsforsaken June 4 2009 10:35 PM EDT

The Wounded Horse takes damage from his own Fireball (74005)!
The Wounded Horse's Fireball hit Canti [501602], Canti's familiar [504503]

The Wounded Horse takes damage from his own Fireball (79291)!
The Wounded Horse's Fireball hit Canti [824147], Canti's familiar [597685]

The Wounded Horse takes damage from his own Fireball (84577)!
The Wounded Horse's Fireball hit Canti [774067], Canti's familiar [711361]

The Wounded Horse takes damage from his own Fireball (89863)!
The Wounded Horse's Fireball hit Canti [598991], Canti's familiar [918754]

The Wounded Horse takes damage from his own Fireball (95149)!
The Wounded Horse's Fireball hit Canti [859102], Canti's familiar [784809]

The Wounded Horse takes damage from his own Fireball (176203)!
The Wounded Horse's Fireball hit Canti [929254], Canti's familiar[1559954]

Here is ranged with mage equips. It looks much better :D

three4thsforsaken June 4 2009 10:36 PM EDT

he took off the tattoo and BGs and put on

A Breastplate of Expertise
A Cloak of the Istari
A Pair of Spellboosters
A Set of Noldorin Spellcasters
A Helm of Clearsight

Picasso June 4 2009 10:38 PM EDT

The fight above posted by 3/4's is when using mage equipment:

Fireball 14,040,000 12,000,000 1,101,270 941,256

Using:
BoE
CoI +11
SB's
NSC's +14
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