The NCB: a Debate -----Why all the disagreement (in Debates)


Fatil1ty June 14 2009 4:47 PM EDT

K guys I BEG you don't just troll my thread to post your comments to just to satisfy your unending need to disagree. It's poisonous to the game and honestly does zero good to anybody.

FAR too many people complain about the NCB system.

Half the people who don't run an NCB complain that it is too easy and is sacriligious against people like Poison who have put in lots of hard work. The other half claim that running an NCB is in fact far too expensive, quite UN-easy, and a very anti competitive instrument in challenging the top.

I Propose the following just for debating purposes.

What if the NCB was changed to allow for achieving 105% of the top MPR user at time 0. Nobody ever achieves those numbers, not even NUB's with their free BA, in addition the top MPR characters have six months to grow. Change the price of BA so that it is somewhere between 25% and 75% of what it is currently. And Allow people to ACTUALLY make runs at the top. This would allow the landscape to always change and promote a sense of enjoyment.

Before you comment on Poison and all those vets...They could start NCB's too.

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] June 14 2009 4:54 PM EDT

"Before you comment on Poison and all those vets...They could start NCB's too."

Because throwing away 4+ years of dedication and commitment to one char is just that easy right? I would love to see some changes to n*b but I would also like to see a Rolling Bonus instituted... But I really don't want to see some of the biggest and most prominent characters just get tossed aside just because the owner wants to start an ncb...

With the current change to rewards I would like to see a change in BA costs all around... but that is also something I do not see happening any time soon. I have always been a supporter of Older chars... and I do not like the whole throwaway character system we have of today.

Fatil1ty June 14 2009 5:02 PM EDT

Boost bigger characters forging potential so that they really have a lot more value. If a person with a mil more MPR was 50% better at forging characters would go WAY up in value.

I understand your thinking about old characters but at the same time we need to ensure a system is in place to encourage new people because that's how the game grows

Sickone June 14 2009 9:38 PM EDT

"Because throwing away 4+ years of dedication and commitment to one char is just that easy right?"

I would have considered his argument a "proof by reduction to the absurd".

Let's assume that the _average_ NCB CB player burns about 80% of his daily BA and only purchases some BA during the XP times... for all intents and purposes, let's assume that's another 10% of base BA, for a grand total of around 90% (out of 133% possible) BA.
Comparatively, a NUB will be buring 80% + almost 33% = almost 113% of base BA.

Now, if we assume 133% base BA burn plus the N*Bonus means 95% of top MPR, we can easily conclude that the _average_ NCB will only ever hope to get to around 64% of top MPR, while the _average_ NUB will usually end up at 80% of top MPR.
The player that started on day one however would be at around 68% of top MPR, not much better than the NCB - basically far, FAR WORSE than a similar effort percentage NUB.

So... what if we set the "target" not at just 95% of top MPR, but instead at 133% of top MPR ?
In the same situation, the _average_ NCB will end up at around 90% of top MPR, noticeably better off than a character who started on day one... while the NUB would have taken the #1 spot already by far, with a nearly 33% MPR advantage.

Or... what if we DROP the "target", and set it to barely 70% of top MPR instead ?
Well then, the "day one" character would still have around 68% of top MPR, as usual... but the NCB would barely break 47% of top MPR, an appaling result ! Even the average NUB would not reach 60% of top MPR, falling short by about half a percent.


Which of those three versions do you find more appealing, and why exactly ?

QBRanger June 14 2009 9:43 PM EDT

Keep the N*B as it is.

Enact a rolling bonus to all characters not in the N*B.

The NCB can get you part of the way there. And then the rolling bonus will take you further, just takes longer.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] June 14 2009 10:25 PM EDT

"So... what if we set the "target" not at just 95% of top MPR, but instead at 133% of top MPR ?"

No, bad idea. There will always be those 3/4s who, if this situation had been enacted, would be by far the highest MPR, forgetting the fact that he can over come LA by buying three minions anyway. If we adjust for the "average" then we are always going to be slighting those vets who are dedicated, because they are going to be out done by the NUBs and NCBs are dedicated. You can't adjust for the average, you have to adjust for the extreme.

Fatil1ty June 14 2009 10:35 PM EDT

alright well how bout this...don't alter the bonus to NUB's seen as it is proven that they are in reality the only ones who can even come anywhere close to 95% of top MPR but increase the top potential for NCB's.

I think the game should make more sense for NCB's to be more aggressive than NUB's in xp growth. That way when a NUB is finished they can undertake a more aggresive run at top MPR. I don't think many vets would have a problem if they were overtaken by somebody who for all intensive purposes put in a year (6th month NUB and 6 month NCB) for a run at the top and succeeded. My comment is simply that the N CCCCCC B is inadequate, The fact that the NUB can be more successful (in reality) and has an extra money bonus makes becoming a multi all the more attractive.

I say max out a NUB's max mpr at something like 90% and a NCB's at 100-105%. It is VERY difficult virtually imppossible to run an NCB with all the costs, reach a close to 100% MPR and then Buy minions to pass. All the power to the guy taht can afford that feat.

What about that idea?

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] June 14 2009 10:39 PM EDT

"don't alter the bonus to NUB's seen as it is proven that they are in reality the only ones who can even come anywhere close to 95% of top MPR but increase the top potential for NCB's."

Grrr... I hate when people don't listen to me. 3/4 has effectively overtaken the top MPR in my book, when he hires he will be a few hundred thousand MPR above LA. Also, just wait till Zenai's done, he'll finish quite fine, quite close to 95% of the top MPR I'm sure. Leave the NUBs and the *NCBs* alone.

Fatil1ty June 14 2009 10:48 PM EDT

you think he'll finish at 4.75M....HAHAHAHAHA not to mention he'll spend gajillions of dollars trying. the thing I just don't understand is why the game offers such a bogus gameplay to NUB's and then offers them the lackluster replacement of the NCB. No wonder so many people leave. Zenai is only able to even run that NCB because he bought hundreds of dollars on buying stuff. There should be a difference in the NUB and NCB and it shouldn't be that the NUB is free and the NCB costs 30 million...

that's pretty sad and for his sake I hope he does amazing.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] June 14 2009 10:53 PM EDT

I do think that he'll finish above 4M MPR + .25 + .25 + .25 = 4.75M MPR, Hahahaha. Have a little faith, and yes, he will spend money, that's what the cost is for being really competitive.

Fatil1ty June 14 2009 10:55 PM EDT

so to be competitive you have to spend hundreds of dollars? Oh and that's just to get a single minion close...keep in mind that it's taken 3/4ths quite a while to coming anywhere close to raising the amount of money required to hire that second minion. I would love to know how much LA (a NUB) spent on his char in USD?

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] June 14 2009 10:58 PM EDT

Wait, so are you arguing against the NUB again? I'm confused.

Fatil1ty June 14 2009 11:04 PM EDT

I'm suggesting that I think it's more than a little unfair that the way the NCB currently is run it is impractical to use it as a metho to make a run at #1. The NCB faces such hilarious disadvantages compared to the NUB that I can imagine why NUB's quit. It's like they finish and suddenly they realize that the game requires millions upon millions of CBD to run a similiar run as they just did. So if you enjoyed that first NUB run why not just sell out and restart as another NUB. Heck it's a lot better than starting an NCB. That's the problem. The NCB is simply a brutal way to treat users after they've completed the NUB. No wonder people leave, once the six months is done it's like fantasy time is over and you either drudge in mediocrity, multi, or spend USD....take your pick

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] June 14 2009 11:13 PM EDT

So you want to implement a solution that makes it easier and tons cheaper than it is for vets? Now there's a terrible idea. Remember, top MPR isn't everything. Ranger's doing quite well with only 3.5M MPR or so. Zenai will be over that for sure. I know Ranger's an extreme example, but like I said, we have to plan for the extremes. I am not a high MPR vet, but I can still relate to them. It's simply not fair, some of them have been spending years and years to get where they are now, but you want them to be overtaken in a matter of 6 months. No thank you, bad idea. If you want to be competitive, then do what a competitive person does, spend some money, lose some sleep, be *competitive*.

Fatil1ty June 14 2009 11:18 PM EDT

hey....I don't know about you but I consider 6 months of a NUB and another 6 months on a NCB if you start immedietely afterwards to be a fairly decent time investment.

Under your logic. At what time exactly is a person deemed worthy to dethrone the great vets? Umm ever?

Fatil1ty June 14 2009 11:21 PM EDT

being in six ba you don't lose any sleep I will point out, however trying to run an NCB you lose considerable amounts.

Fatil1ty June 14 2009 11:25 PM EDT

third thing is this: would you prefer that those vets get passed by NUB's instead because I do believe is my logic is correct a NCB has by definition put more time/effort into the game and yet has no chance to compete with a NUB with similar effort.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] June 14 2009 11:33 PM EDT

"Under your logic. At what time exactly is a person deemed worthy to dethrone the great vets? Umm ever?"

MPR maybe never, but that doesn't mean you can't be competitive.

"being in six ba you don't lose any sleep I will point out, however trying to run an NCB you lose considerable amounts."

Ahhh hogwash, I thought you were old enough to remember when BA was regenerated every 10 minutes. Vets had it way worse.

"third thing is this: would you prefer that those vets get passed by NUB's instead because I do believe is my logic is correct a NCB has by definition put more time/effort into the game and yet has no chance to compete with a NUB with similar effort."

Then fix the NUBs not the NCBs, fix the disease not the symptom.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] June 14 2009 11:35 PM EDT

"being in six ba you don't lose any sleep I will point out, however trying to run an NCB you lose considerable amounts."

i don't feel that i lost all that much, first few days were bad but it got better rather quickly.

you really aren't gonna get much sympathy in that department from vets though as they spent much more time in each of the different regen zones and either missed ba or missed much more sleep than an ncb would in compressed run.

Sickone June 14 2009 11:53 PM EDT

" "So... what if we set the "target" not at just 95% of top MPR, but instead at 133% of top MPR ?"

No, bad idea."

Well, yeah, but that was exactly the point... I gave three options, in two of those (the current one and the one you mentioned as bad), a typical day-one-character actually ends up WORSE off than a NCB with the same "dedication" levels :)


"I say max out a NUB's max mpr at something like 90% and a NCB's at 100-105%. It is VERY difficult virtually imppossible to run an NCB with all the costs, reach a close to 100% MPR..."


So, the issue is actually with the NCB BA cost instead of the NUB free BA ? Or is it with the NCB BA cost still ? Why would there be any differentiation between those two ?
Why not make it so that a NUB will end up at around 70% of top MPR if he burns ALL his BA (including all the free ones) instead of 95% then, and always make a NCB be able to reach 125% of top MPR instead of just 95% if he buys all BA while also burning all natural BA (you know, be able to reach 95% without buying any BA at all) ?
No, I am not advocating doing that - I'm merely asking, what's the difference, what would make any of the above good while any others of the above bad ?
To me, they all seem almost equally BAD. Including the current system.


"... and then Buy minions to pass. All the power to the guy taht can afford that feat.
What about that idea?"

I find the idea of additional minions giving significant amounts of XP to be obsolete... it became obsolete at about the same time as the XP rescale (the one that made all levels cost 12 XP always)... I'd rather see the minion recruit costs killed down to negligible levels, but for that matter, the same thing would go for minion recruit costs.
Something like, say, 1% XP (instead of 11%) for the "expensive" option (and costing about 1/10 of what it costs now), with the cheap option granting a 0 XP minion, for a cost of, say, 1.5*MPR in CB$.

Fatil1ty June 15 2009 12:09 AM EDT

I personally like that idea that a NUB be less able to reach high MPR as the NCB. It gives more value to the NCB and decreases the attractiveness of the NUB which would reduce multis and would mean more NUB's would be more likely to try NCB's. Allowing a NCB a legit shot at becoming top five would be fair in my opinion because it would require at least a full six months of work to even start one. I just think it's sad that being a NUB offers a better chance at reaching high MPR than the NCB. I know that I was racing against Rawr (NUB), dudemus,proteus, and wasp (NCB). Rawr reached around 3.7 while myself and the other three reached at most 3.5. I myself spent over 20M on hiring and at least that in buying BA and would say I missed only slightly less than rawr. Thats a big gap between his 0 hire, 0 cost character and mine.

QBOddBird June 15 2009 12:17 AM EDT

If you think there are too many complaints about the N*B system, just wait a few years until one of two things has occurred:

1) The N*B is at 1000% rate or so, and nobody can effectively keep their fightlist updated to use it properly

2) The N*B has been extended again to keep the bonus low, and you have to dedicate a year to your N*B.

Zenai June 15 2009 12:30 AM EDT

hey....I don't know about you but I consider 6 months of a NUB and another 6 months on a NCB if you start immediately afterward to be a fairly decent time investment.

Under your logic. At what time exactly is a person deemed worthy to dethrone the great vets? Umm ever?


Honestly with true competitiveness, enough planning and hard enough work, at any time should be the answer!


Being in six ba you don't lose any sleep I will point out, however trying to run an NCB you lose considerable amounts.


And hallelujah on that brother, I am so tired right now it is not even funny! I cannot wait to get there. If the Regen Times were rotating, during the entire NCB, on the BA I think that would just be wonderful!


third thing is this: would you prefer that those vets get passed by NUB's instead because I do believe is my logic is correct a NCB has by definition put more time/effort into the game and yet has no chance to compete with a NUB with similar effort.


If the NUBs are competitive enough then why not? Few are able to do it thought, a few come to mind Rawr, Solare, and Darkfurry. With NUBs I always expect them to hit mid ways, there are a few bright stars in the bunch like Emotion, Demigod and DeathTheKid that you can see the makings of greatness in and hope for their success. As far as the NCBs, Im sorry Fat but I have to disagree it is up to the Vet that is running the NCB, if they have planned saved up and gotten everything and then put it into action then they should be able to do well. This is what I have done, point made?


I have to admit that the NCB to run COMPETITIVELY with OPTIMAL results is insanely expensive! 30 Mil hah I spend roughly 5 mil a week in BA alone and if I want to keep up with my competitors I have to spend tons of CBD for those needed upgrades. If I want to try and "Hop" the Dead Zone I have to be Smart and Rich as I have to keep up with my ENC with properly balanced upgrades and training. Expensive and extremely hard to do. So far I have been in the Dead Zone for about a week and have been trudging through it a slight bit faster than I expected.

Bottomline in all of this I AM an Extreme version of NCB plain and simple. I am shooting for the Top Ranks and want to effectively hit the highest Milestone an NCB has ever hit 4 Mil or more before it ends. Most only want to get as far as possible, a projection is not in mind at all.

The proof however is there though to compete at the level that I am currently is far too expensive and time consuming for the average player to achieve. Understand though that not EVERYONE wants to compete at the level I am currently. I planned for 6 months before I started this NCB and even when I started it I did not have enough CBD to run it effectively and still do not to be honest. My first projections were not far off but still needed tweaking, 240 Mil to run properly, currently I am almost there now. I still have another 4 months of NCB BA to pay for to keep that Optimal and Competitive return. I will of course have to drop USD but I do not care and never did on that front, I have stated it before I have no problem spending USD on something I like.

Fatil1ty June 15 2009 12:44 AM EDT

I was just saying the zenai that it doesnt seem fair that competing on MPR is so driven by CBD. I understand the need to spend USD to compete on a items nw basis but MPR should come from hard work and dedication not by spending insane amounts of USD.

Why not reduce NCB BA cost. Put a target of 100% top MPR on the limit. and Drastically reduce the amount of MPR you could add by hiring. That way you wouldn't have guys running single minions and hiring to pass the number 1.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] June 15 2009 12:47 AM EDT

If the NCB cost is cut I'll leave. That would bring unfair to amazing new levels.

QBOddBird June 15 2009 12:47 AM EDT

Better yet, just dump the idea of adding EXP by hiring period. You could hire minions with 0 exp only, and for free.

We've got the RoE to adjust them now. Besides, when a player generally hires a new minion, even at the high cost it is so weak in comparison to the main minion that it is nearly useless.

Sickone June 15 2009 6:46 AM EDT

"If the NUBs are competitive enough then why not? Few are able to do it thought, a few come to mind Rawr, Solare, and Darkfurry."

Let's not forget FTW :)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] June 15 2009 7:19 AM EDT

"If the NCB cost is cut I'll leave. That would bring unfair to amazing new levels."

:(

The NCB cost is unfair beyond belief mate. The NUB gets increases cash rewards plus free BA.

The NCB gets nothing. And it's designed to use all this super 500% more costing BA in order to function. I can't belive *anyone* would seriously support it.

Do people really wonder why player retention is so low? The NUB is make or break, and then there's really little point in staying after. The NCB is ludicrous, an option really only available to few, with immense planning needed.

And the low game is nothing to speak about. There's no goals, no motivation. It's all about hiting 6/20, or the Top Ten.

Grabbing players is hard enough, versus graphical games like Mob Wars or Duels, or whatever else is around.

We should be encouraging players to stay, not making it exordinante to remain.

We do not have the draw, nor the retentaion to base CB around an ever changing user base of 6 months.

Shark June 17 2009 3:40 AM EDT

hmmmmmmm....I dunno what difference it all makes..If you want to play you decide whats the best way for you..Play with The NCB and have some fun down at the bottom with is bottom feeders trying to stay off the toads and crocs that are hiding and See how well you can do. OR stay up the top and get hammered into submission by USD. Complain about how its not right one have more money to spend than you..The NCB in my opinion is just for that type that got tired of the rat race trying to keep up..So You play the NCB when you can and if you can, when it runs out you go get another one....But really I dont see anything wrong with NCB myself as its a choice...like most things in life there are choices to make and each has its own inherent plus and minus factor...No one ever intended for one to actually be able to reach the top from an NCB...It gave us guys a little booost that wanted to do something different and kept us in the Game, even if it take 2 years for us to come back ...THANKS for the NCB !!
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