The Wiki And The Community (in General)

QBJohnnywas July 23 2009 6:47 AM EDT

OK, here's the thing: I don't like the Wiki. But then I don't really like instruction manuals, especially those that tell you not only how to play the game, but how the game works.

But there's more to it than that. I can recall, way back in the old days, when I was a newbie, not knowing how things worked, not knowing what to use with what, and finding a bit (ok, quite a bit) of excitement as I worked out for myself the ins and outs of enchantments and weapons and DD spells.

Now, we're behind the curtain people and the Wizard is a funny looking old man.

Where does that sense of excitement come from now? It was a huge part of the early game for me. The other side of that was the huge strategy discussions that used to fill the forums. Where are they now eh?

And that brings me to my point. I think the Wiki has had a negative impact on the community in CB. In the old days a new guy could come along and not really know how things worked. Post a question, or two, or three in the forums and get involved in a discussion. Or do the same in chat. See who answered your questions and maybe CM them and get to know them as you work out the game. Interaction, interaction, interaction. That's gone for the most part: now it's 'go look in the wiki, everything you need to know is there'. But maybe that's a huge problem. The lack of a detailed central bank of knowledge made players group together to share the information they had found out for themselves.

Now that's gone and what we have left, as a direct result, is a much less communal player base in my opinion.

So there you have it. The Wiki killed CB. Discuss.

blackshadowshade July 23 2009 6:51 AM EDT

Go look in the wiki, everything you need to know is there.

Solare July 23 2009 7:09 AM EDT

While its true a possible negative impact of creating a page to inform new users is a less communal game, the positive impacts seem to outweigh it. Consider the fact that only a select amount of individuals will be willing to test out gameplay and openly discuss strategy and the like, not to mention jump into something without knowing anything about it. I for one, am not one of those people.
You would be isolating a single kind of player rather than welcome players of all kinds. A wiki is an informative page which allows for that (now if only the tutorial was up to par...). Ultimately, it's your choice to look into the wiki. If you don't like reading it, you can simply ask an experienced player who's willing to help.

Personally, I think the reason why CB's popularity has decreased is due to the recent changes, as well as the less than adequate tutorial.
You can't retain new players if the tutorial to play the game forces one to play a certain way, and causes more confusion than education.
I'm sure the tutorial has come a long way, but I'm also sure if you ask the majority of new users, they'll likely tell you its rather specialized and causes many potential newbie mistakes.
Obviously the wiki was created, in part, to counteract that.
My conclusion: information is good.

Untouchable July 23 2009 7:13 AM EDT


i miss mentoring

Zenai [Ministry of Pain] July 23 2009 7:25 AM EDT

Well I see the Wiki as Both good and bad in the Facts of this:


1) It is no where nearly as well maintained as before.

2) Because the Wiki is there discussion and memorization is low as you said go look at the Wiki is the general consensus.

3) Lack of Multiple Player Involvement in the development of ALL New Players.


1) It is a quick reference when you forget something and need the information. Not everyone has a photographic memory.

2) It is a great aid in assisting in the education of New Players as it makes them have a chance at truly utilizing their NUB if they use it properly.

3) There is a Thrill when adding something to it knowing that you have contributed to the knowledge base.

Overall I do NOT think the Wiki Killed CB, I think the lack of interest in the Wiki or lack of consistency in updating it did. Since most of the information is there most said what is the use of continuing the Trend of "I found something I've got to add to the Wiki!" I think many have forgotten that CB is a Revolving and Evolving game(as it has no end) and Upkeep of the Wiki Accurately and Constantly IS Key in following this game. True it makes it a bit easier but at the same time inaccurate information has the reverse effect.

At the same time CB players I have noticed have become more and more self reliant and indulged since the game has become more expense and complicated. Because of this there seems to be less ability or want to help out more of the New Players. Now do not get me wrong on this there are some that really do go the distance to help out New Players. This by the way I find commendable. Understand this though sometimes it is simply Real Life and Time is an issue not a lack of want to help.

So we have the Conundrum what is the real issue here the Wiki or the Players? Inside of Each there is a further Conundrum:

Is it because the Wiki is too full of information or because of a lack of interest in updating it(the thrill is gone?)?

Does RL play a harsh factor in NP interaction or is it because Older Players/Vets have become Self Indulged/Jaded?

Finally I will say what if the truth of the matter is that it is not simply one of these factors but all of these factors rolled into one? You can probably narrow it down to one or two of these being bigger than the rest but honestly no single one of them can truly be the ONLY factor.

I enjoy helping NP's(Some just plain out do not!) I try my best to send them to the right places when they make their first post. RL is a killer for me though since sometimes my time is severely crunched all I really have time for is Burning BA. Then again I have made a few changes in the Wiki as well and noticed that there are several sections that are extremely outdated. This being said the Wiki is a Bear in the need for an Overhaul and most find it intimidating or just too time consuming to do so.

There's my 2 Cents :)

QBJohnnywas July 23 2009 7:33 AM EDT

Obviously I don't really believe that CB is dead, but you do hear again and again that the community isn't what it used to be. We are the community, and a lot of us have been here a long time. Zenai, you're probably right about the level of jadedness that's about, but there's also less reason for new players to jump in and get involved these days. Not every player is like that, but looking at the ones who are here who have stayed a fairly common trait seems to be the ability to make their presence known.

I'm not sure what the solutions are, but I think that it is fairly obvious we are not in as good shape as we used be.

If as a few people have said recently the tutorial is in need of a rework then perhaps one of the things it needs is increased interaction with other players. Mentors anybody?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] July 23 2009 7:39 AM EDT

Johnny, I'm sure I made this point ages ago. ;)

If anyone asks anything now, it's "look in the Wiki". That's why I'm hungering for new additions to the game, new changes, like Junctioning UC to Jigs, that are unkowns we can explore.

QBsutekh137 July 23 2009 9:11 AM EDT

I've never thought obfuscation of information was a compelling challenge to overcome, as in, "Goodie! A problem that could be a lot easier if I had some info, but now that I don't, it's even MORE fun!" It is especially frustrating if everyone else already knows the stuff. What is the difference between asking endless questions in chat and simply reading the Wiki?

For me personally, it wouldn't really matter either way... I asked one question my first day on CB1, and after that I can't recall doing much more than looking at other teams and trying stuff. And when things seemed dead-ended (like when I Wanted to turn one of my tanks into a mage), I pushed for the ability to untrain intrinsics so that flexibility was available.

All that said, I think GL has nailed a big part of it. Since we already have things sussed out, we need more new things and more combinations to keep things fresh. AK recently ran a strategy contest and got something like 3-4 entries. That was it. I don't think people would have entered more had there not been a Wiki.

Just my opinion, though...

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] July 23 2009 9:34 AM EDT

Plus, we had other places like CBStuff to keep things when we didn't have a wiki.

I just think again we really need more (and not obfuscated changes that leave us baffled, there's still stuff like that we have no hope of catching, unless Jon lets slip, like the EXBow damage) new stuff to sink our teeth into.

We haven't had anything new or really mechanically changing for ages. Apart from the change to Junction. Which we as a community really got into, tested, devoured and enjoyed.

Well, I know I did. ;)

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] July 23 2009 9:41 AM EDT

i love the wiki mainly because the data in it showed up in the forums first. the wiki is much easier and faster to search than the forums though and i hated knowing i had seen what i was looking for before but i just couldn't find the post!

QBRanger July 23 2009 10:48 AM EDT

The wiki is just fine. Great in fact as a place for all the information we have obtained.

But this statement rings very true and is something I have stated numerous times:

"We haven't had anything new or really mechanically changing for ages."

The last big "change" was removal of the junction skill and replacement with the AoJ. We all remember how bugged that was and how long it took for things to get almost fixed.

One of the allures of CB was the ever changing gameplay. You would have a great strat and BAMM, changemonth. Kept you on your toes.

I seems that Jon has a lot more RL issues, especially with 2 kids. I know as I have 2 myself ages 4 and 7 and when I am at home, they take all my time. I am very lucky I have time at work for CB. Perhaps too much.

But it seems to me CB is stagnating a bit.

The only real change last changemonth was the drop system and I cannot figure out why it was enacted. Other than a "Gee, it is changemonth and I have to do something" type of deal. Perhaps it was to bring camping back in some degree, but this is just a way to mess with money management, which is a strategy game is everything.

So I guess I am saying:

The wiki is great. It has not killed CB. The stagnation has killed CB. Everything is not there, just things we have currently discovered. Without the wiki, it would be much harder for people to find the information they need.

The wiki, IMO, was one of the best additions to CB.

The problem with new players is not the wiki, it is the tutorial. And of course chat, which is another discussion post.

QBOddBird July 23 2009 10:56 AM EDT

I agree with you, JW. I also recall being in that same state as you, where everything was interesting and we tested to find things out, and we were always probing for information and asking how things worked. I miss that, and I feel like it's been missing for a while.

OverKill July 23 2009 10:56 AM EDT

i agree with Ranger the wiki is how i figured out the game.

QBRanger July 23 2009 11:03 AM EDT

I think perhaps you are taking out your "frustration" on the wiki when I believe it is something else your frustrated with.

In the past, we had no knowledge of things like CTH, BTH, evasion etc.. I mean how they exactly worked.

Now we have those stats in the battle report. We used to have to make multiple posts about how these things interacted and whether more dex or more + would increase the chance to hit.

Whether you can get 2 hits all the time with dexterity advantage or 1.5.

The wiki has done nothing but be a place we could gather all that information.

The lack of huge discussion posts arise from the more knowledge we are given about the game and its mechanics.

I remember when I believed there was a bug in the to hit process vs evasion. I made a few posts. Then Jon let us see the exact dexterity chance to hit on our battle report. For days we had endless discussions about it.

Now, we know all that information. What is left to discover? Left to figure out? There has not been a new spell, skill, nice item in months. Last changemonth we got a new lottery system. Wow! Not much to discuss there except the drop rate and if people love or hate it.

There is no strategy in a drop system. It is pure luck that you cannot change except to fight more.

Before the wiki, it was actually harder but possible to find all the information you needed.

And yes, if you could not find it, someone would make a post and we would have some discussion.

But personally, I like the wiki. It is easy to use, concise and very detailed about what we currently know.

However, we need more things we do not know about to discuss. Something that has been missing for a while.

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] July 23 2009 12:38 PM EDT

I liked groping around in the dark too :)

The game is more complicated now, I wouldn't want to spend some days, weeks, months to find my way while my NUB was wasted.

Maybe I liked the perception that the more in the dark everyone was the more advantage I could get ;)

My only concern about a wiki would be accuracy/outdated info.

BHT July 23 2009 2:50 PM EDT

Uh, almost every game has some sort of Wiki/Help Guide. Im not sure how they can be so bad if they are used everywhere.
I don't see how the addition of a Wiki can ruin a game...If anything it makes it better.
Some people enjoy finding info to add to the Wiki, and im willing to bet theres a lot more that can be added....So if your so in love with finding out new things and discovering how things work, then get crackin' cause im sure theirs more out there.
This thread is closed to new posts. However, you are welcome to reference it from a new thread; link this with the html <a href="/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002pgP">The Wiki And The Community</a>