On the chopping block: GOM (in General)


AdminNightStrike August 3 2009 3:48 PM EDT

The gloves of mercy are incredibly useless in terms of actual practicality in the current game of CB. The auction pricers are embarrassing, with the chairman getting them for about $1k each.

Does anyone actually use them to any extent? Has anyone found any sort of useful strategy for these unwanted items?

QBJohnnywas August 3 2009 3:50 PM EDT

Make the bonus to PTH work with all melee weapons and I would consider using them, but as it is their use is fairly limited.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] August 3 2009 3:50 PM EDT

The only use I found for them was in a tourney. If you don't have enough money to get a pair of nice gloves and you are running a melee tank they are very nice, since they are incredibly cheap. Other than that nothing.

Drama [Just for fun] August 3 2009 3:52 PM EDT

I'd love to use one but, since it's only for the short edge, my hammer isn't usefull.

Demigod August 3 2009 3:53 PM EDT

Regardless of the outcome for these, thanks for looking into it NS. (And I've never had a use for them, but I'm limited in strats.)

QBRanger August 3 2009 3:54 PM EDT

They are fairly useless, yes.

I think Jon added them when evasion was all powerful to give people a possible chance to hit.

However, the TGs for melee only tanks are far better item. More ENC and more strength.

iBananco [Blue Army] August 3 2009 3:55 PM EDT

EGs are infinitely superior.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] August 3 2009 3:56 PM EDT

If they did give Pth to all weapons I can see them as having a pretty good use. Otherwise as they are now tourneys are all they will really see use at.

Drama [Just for fun] August 3 2009 3:57 PM EDT

I don't know, give the bonus to every melee weapon and a resistance to EC ax and ex bow haha!!

AdminQBVerifex [Serenity In Chaos] August 3 2009 3:57 PM EDT

GoM are a rare item sure, but the other items just give much better effects. If the PTH was something like 10% extra per plus, I might consider, as they would give me some solid benefit. But as it is, most people are okay with hitting less and doing more damage.

Admiralkiller August 3 2009 3:58 PM EDT

I was thinking of a strat to use with them but I am scared to try it and in a the rare tourny they could be used. I would suggest keeping them but spawning them less often, Also maybe a small boost in the gloves or the weapons that you can use the gloves with.

Most people don't use daggers/katanas/execs and so many more items. Should we just delete these too? unless it actually makes a problem with the game I say just leave it be.

Eurynome Bartleby [Bartleby's] August 3 2009 3:59 PM EDT

Giving PTH to every weapon could make them more useful...

...but I've always liked the idea that they were intended for use on light tanks. Maybe it should reward you for having low AC?

Marlfox [Cult of the Valaraukar] August 3 2009 4:01 PM EDT

P'raps 5-10% extra PTH per plus, and it may be interesting.

Eurynome Bartleby [Bartleby's] August 3 2009 4:02 PM EDT

they*

Lord Bob August 3 2009 4:15 PM EDT

Aside from them being useless, which they are, I'd like too see them axed just because of what they represent: a big slap to the face of tank players back in the days of Super Evasion.

They would be less terrible if they gave accuracy to all weapons, but honestly, I'd still just rather see them go poof... and then give us a new Elven Circlet that gives the extra + to everything!

Newlin [SeeD] August 3 2009 5:06 PM EDT

They work well for my tourney character :D

Cube August 3 2009 5:36 PM EDT

Would you get rid of the MenC too?

Drama [Just for fun] August 3 2009 5:43 PM EDT

I think the menC is even more useless since tanks usually equip a tattoo. I'd love to see those two items stay. Change it a way the 2 gives a particular effect and combining them really makes a difference.

Brakke Bres [Ow man] August 3 2009 5:47 PM EDT

do we actually need these gloves to give more pth? Both evasion and DB's aren't up for the job. I would propose to give them evasion effect like the db's, nothing to hard.

iBananco [Blue Army] August 3 2009 6:03 PM EDT

DBs work just fine.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 3 2009 7:32 PM EDT

They were added to give us an option versus high Evasion (when Evasion could still reduce BCTH).

This is no longer necessary, as DBs (with the same curve as weapon +) can't reduce BCTH, and Evasion just isn't as effective.

GoM have never been used, and have never sold for any amount of money. I can no longer think of a useful strategy for them, when it's better to ignore the PTH - Minus PTH battle if your opponent has large DBs Evasion anyway.

Don't increase your PR by spending cash on a curved upgrade. Spend it on the linear and non PR increasing X, and use your unreduceable BTCH to land blows.

Lord Bob August 3 2009 7:44 PM EDT

"I would propose to give them evasion effect like the db's, nothing to hard."

No. More. Evasion.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 3 2009 7:59 PM EDT

And more Evasion is just pointless now. DBs can counter PTH like for like. And more Evasion gives you nothing.

Well, you could use GoM to counter ToA PTH, but you'd be better off training Evasion, or ignoring it.

iBananco [Blue Army] August 3 2009 8:30 PM EDT

The cost of x may be linear, but its effects aren't.

Godpanda August 3 2009 8:55 PM EDT

I would like to point something out....

Maybe the reason GoM are considered so bad is because, in general, so are edged weapons. Using a bad item to buff a bad strategy to to the point of making it just about sub-par... Well.... *shrugs*

But to answer the Title of the post, if something isn't changed, please get rid of them. Along with katanas.

Shark August 3 2009 9:05 PM EDT

anyone ever forge up some uber GoM's to test the effect?

+15's(are expensive like everything else) should work nicely I'm thinking for those who use a Vorpal Blade...ohh not many uses an overly large Vorpal Blade....okey

but I found more uses indeed for the other gloves as most other have a dual purpose not a just a single use smitten mitten

TheHatchetman August 3 2009 9:18 PM EDT

"+15's(are expensive like everything else) should work nicely I'm thinking for those who use a Vorpal Blade...ohh not many uses an overly large Vorpal Blade....okey"

heh... Once had the largest VB, MenC, and GoM in CB (though, admittedly, the GoM/MenC were more new than they were Herculean). By the time I got around to trying to put them to use together, evasion was thoroughly nerfed. At this point, +240 weapons, while still nice to have, had a lot less meaning (and if your weapon is below +180 or so, then there's no way GoM are more worthwhile than another glove set, perhaps this too is part of the items' problem)... Couple that with a vicious cycle of nerfs on damage reduction (protection gone, encumbrance, SS being added, SS being made dispelable), and then throw a new 1-handed "niche" weapon in play (MoDs are fun), and VBs are naught more than a party favor or a souvenir...

Drama [Just for fun] August 3 2009 9:24 PM EDT

Problem is that AC ToE and evasion was all greatly nerf, so there's no need to use a VB, GoM and MenC anymore. Unless you have a low dex like my character and still I use a MoD.

Godpanda August 3 2009 9:24 PM EDT

And no one is even talking about the ELS here.


*shrug* Like I said. Can't complain that an item used to buff garbage isn't being used.

{WW]Nayab [Cult of the Valaraukar] August 4 2009 3:48 AM EDT

The ELS is unaffected by the GoM. This is because the GoM gives a 2% per enchantment to SHORT edged weapons making it useless for the BoT and ELS.

Godpanda August 4 2009 4:22 AM EDT

My mistake. And you're really wondering why it's not being used?....

QBOddBird August 4 2009 1:15 PM EDT

GoM v. TGs, even if they gave reasonable PTH:

1 HIT and 10k damage
vs
2 HITS and 5k damage each

going PTH over damage in this game is a losing strategy. You are further affected by GA, endurance...any damage cap sort of thing affects you in a greater manner, while the only advantage offered is a greater chance to continue hitting if someone has a high -PTH stat against you.

If you ask me, the only way for an item such as GoM - replacing damage with PTH - to be useful would be viz. an alteration in the manner in which combat is performed. GA, AC, endurance, all of it is more effective against multiple blows/weaker damage than against fewer blows/increased damage.

Creating lots of Evasive items alongside lots of Accurate items would change the situation, as the chances of a tank hitting are currently pretty binary; if you changed tanks into a more diverse light/medium/heavy variety, then perhaps this sort of PTH play would be more viable.


Forgive me if this is incomprehensible, I just got back from chasing down a groundhog and I am lightheaded from all the running.

Brakke Bres [Ow man] August 4 2009 2:37 PM EDT

No raising of the PTH anymore. ToA gives free PTH and dex gives PTH.

Rather scrap the whole GoM or give it some -PTH or make it useful for the SoC adding % to the damage.

QBRanger August 4 2009 2:39 PM EDT

One can make the GoM work like the ToA.

Give its NW to the + NW of the weapon(s) one uses as addition to the +.

Extremely helpful with lower NW weapons, less helpful with high NW ones.

Or just get rid of it.

Either way, it is 6 of 1, 1/2 dozen of the other.

Drama [Just for fun] August 4 2009 2:39 PM EDT

Splash damage =]

AdminNightStrike August 4 2009 9:01 PM EDT

>Give its NW to the + NW of the weapon(s) one uses as addition to the +.

>Extremely helpful with lower NW weapons, less helpful with high NW ones.


So far, this is the best idea, I think. The original intent with the GOM was to have a rare that was a semi-rare. The GOM might fall better in this category under the above setup.

Keep the ideas coming...

Drama [Just for fun] August 4 2009 9:51 PM EDT

Givethe PTH bonus to every melee weapons (maybe UC) and add one of these.

- Gives an additional bonus to BL just like MG or BoT does for VA.

- Add an additional strike in every round.

-Gives a dexterity or strength bonus on every hit just like ax or ex bows works.

-Makes you hit an invisible minion.

-Attack the Tattoo/Rune/Familiar wearer first.

-Boost your melee damage with a %.

OR

Leave it for short edge only but Had the ability to Equip a long edge/hammer with a short edge.


And for the Cape, I'd see it reduce the effects of EC/axbow/exbow.

Eurynome Bartleby [Bartleby's] August 4 2009 10:26 PM EDT

''And for the Cape, I'd see it reduce the effects of EC/axbow/exbow.''

..or...Dispel Magic?

/tryingtogivemyselfanadvantage

{Wookie}-Jir.Vr- August 4 2009 11:07 PM EDT

I don't think I understand Ranger's suggestion. Seems kind of pointless, couldn't you just... you know... upgrade the weapon? :S

BHT August 4 2009 11:12 PM EDT

I think he is saying in most cases in the lower levels it would be cheaper to upgrade the armor instead of the weapon?

AdminNightStrike August 4 2009 11:18 PM EDT

You'd get more NW for less PR.

Drama [Just for fun] August 4 2009 11:20 PM EDT

But the time between a NUB wears the shop gloves to the rare gloves is to short. With 1 000 000 weakly income, it's useless for them to have such an item. Don't forget the renting possibility wich decrease the chance someone would spend gold on this semi-rare item

Bolfen August 4 2009 11:22 PM EDT

I thought the point of the MenC and GOM was to create some super mini-tank...the problem is that no awesome "short edged weapon" finished the set. The Elven Stiletto doesn't cut it as the wiki entry betrays its weakness:

The Elven Stiletto hits a fair deal weaker than the Katana. Theoretically, against ToE and AC / combo of both teams, it should do better - however, it does not put out enough damage to justify its use. Avoid this weapon, for as confirmed by NightStrike [2], it is entirely useless in its current state and can be seen only as a newbie trap.

Drama [Just for fun] August 4 2009 11:26 PM EDT

Isn't it useless to have more NW if you can't remain under your encumbrance level with a low mpr character?

{Wookie}-Jir.Vr- August 4 2009 11:28 PM EDT

Which would accomplish what? This might work if it was hard to get a hold of a top end weapon, but it's ... not... So any NUB/NCB/ANYONE can very EASILY get a hold of the weapon they plan on using, and would choose to invest into the weapon directly while getting a bonus from a better pair of gloves.

You would essentially be turning a worthless item into a worthless item.

Here is an idea:
Gloves of Mercy - When a target is hit by a minion wearing a pair of GoM, that minion loses regeneration granted by VA and TSA. If a minion absorbs damage caused by a minion wearing a pair of GoM, the minion that absorbed the damage loses regeneration. (This is for the rest of the fight)

Word it however you want to make it easier to understand.

You could also make it so that a % of the damage dealt by the minion would be the amount of regeneration "blocked". This would give it it's full effect on a tank dealing out decent damage, while preventing abuse by throwing it on an enchanter.

Thoughts?

{Wookie}-Jir.Vr- August 4 2009 11:28 PM EDT

My idea would also be a sort of fix to minions coming back to life...

Drama [Just for fun] August 4 2009 11:35 PM EDT

DM is already hard enough on VA, I can't see an item that blocks totaly without any exp spent.

Tyriel [123456789] August 4 2009 11:49 PM EDT

1. Drop the 'short' and 'edged' categories. Have the MenC and GoM apply to all 1-handed weapons.
2. Change the MenC to something other than a cloak, gloves or body armor, so it can be used with a tattoo and GoM.
3. Decrease the upgrade cost of both bit. Currently they realistically top out at about 40 PTH. Make that more like 45 or 50.

That's what I think should be done.

I think the items are about fine as is, but there's just too much restriction on their use. I mean, you need to have the right (usually less powerful) weapon equipped, the minion can't have a tattoo, it pretty much has to be a melee tank, and you're giving up some potentially useful items (EC, BG, TG, and the already mentioned tattoo).

Drama [Just for fun] August 4 2009 11:52 PM EDT

MenC into" gloves or body armor" GoM are already gloves and you can't equip a body armor with a tattoo. You probably meant boots or helm.

Drama [Just for fun] August 4 2009 11:54 PM EDT

whoops my bad, I invented some words in your sentence......getting late....

kevlar August 5 2009 12:43 AM EDT

I'm not a fan of them, I'd rather see a new glove (and cloak/cape)

{WW]Nayab [Cult of the Valaraukar] August 5 2009 3:37 AM EDT

How about we change it to this.
The GoM;
Affects all one handed melee Weapons.
Adds 1% extra Points to Hit per enchantment point to the weapon.
Adds 1% Vampiric Aura effect per enchantment point to the weapon.

Vaynard [Fees Dirt Cheap] August 5 2009 3:45 AM EDT

It seems the point of the GoM as well as the MgC is to make certain 1 handed weapons hit more. But no one is using them, obviously.

So just buff them. This game needs more rares and choices, not less! I've seen lots of great ideas. Here's a few more:
1) have each + give an extra 3% pth on each.
2) give them something unique- a guaranteed extra attack each round if both are equipped.
3) I agree with other posters, they really should affect more weapons to make them more useful- at least all 1-handed weapons or preferably all melee weapons.
4) I don't know if it would mess things up, but give them a negative starting NW, so you could up your weapons more. Have it work out so +8 would work out to around 0 networth on each. This could make them very handy starting items for people wanting to use melee weapons.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 5 2009 4:36 AM EDT

The main Problem with having the GoM as Tank Glovs, is that they have to compete with Tulkas (for Melee), Belegs (for Archers) and Helms (for UC).

Just giving PTH isn't good enough. PTH is a damage increase, and the three above provide much more for thier respective specs than a GoM would.

It was designed to give an option versus the old Evasion. It's no longer necessary. If you up the PTH in any way to make them better for Damage than the above three, no one wold then ever use Tulkas, Belegs or Helms, and everyone would opt for the GoM.

If you want the GoM to stay, it needs to be either designed not to provide a damage increase (which is really all PTH is), or designed to work with something other than Melee, Ranged or UC.

As for the Cloak, its major downside is you can't use it with a Tattoo. And the only Minion that has a free Cloak slot is usually a high AC Wall, in which case we already have the SC.

You want PTH on a Cloak? Use a ToA.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 5 2009 4:37 AM EDT

"or designed to work with something other than Melee, Ranged or UC"

That should be Archery not Ranged.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] August 5 2009 5:41 AM EDT

Ranger's idea seems rather interesting. I would say tweak it a little and it would likely be a viable glove. Make it add its nw to the pth of any weapon equipped or UC, just like how the ToA works. This would work really well for a tank with a ranged and melee weapon. It would then be the glove for mixed tanks.

QBJohnnywas August 5 2009 6:00 AM EDT

I'll say it again, both items are too narrow in what they offer. Speaking as a tank player I want damage. And if I want damage I'll got to the bigger weapons and Tulks or Belegs. I want speed, so I'll be wearing an EC to lift dex.

The smaller weapons might be useful earlier on, but higher up you're competing with mage damage. The gloves and the cloak simply don't offer anything to the vast majority of tank teams.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 5 2009 6:05 AM EDT

And we don't really need 'entry level' Rares any more, like Katana's.

Drama [Just for fun] August 5 2009 7:42 AM EDT

Well here's my strat and all the gloves.

I'm using GS to boost my tank in a 3 minion team with no ToA equip so the TG or EG aren't good for me. I have BL trained, so why would I get BG and HG. That where I thought I could use the MgC and GoM, but it seems this one doesn't help either. So I don't have any interesting gloves for my tank only because I'm using enchanters to boost him. (my best is AoF, I still get the amplified EC)

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] August 5 2009 8:34 AM EDT

Wow you are right, that is 1 setup where it is better to use GoM and MenC. The GS and Haste tanks. I had a lot of fun running that type of strat.

Zenai August 5 2009 10:11 AM EDT

Meh Make it easy. Take all of the Mentioned Items in this Thread & put them in a new Category: Tourney Rares

They can only spawn for and be bought by Tourney Chars. Problem solved.

Admiralkiller August 5 2009 10:14 AM EDT

well I say that they are not completely useless. so just keep em around do they really cause that much of a problem while they are around?

Zenai August 5 2009 10:14 AM EDT

Well besides taking them out of the system and burning them with fire.

Drama [Just for fun] August 5 2009 3:57 PM EDT

Please don't burn my only hope :(

Rawr August 5 2009 5:18 PM EDT

Give GoM base armor. More than or similar to the TG. If this is too overpowered either remove/reduce the +PTH part of the item.

Drama [Just for fun] August 5 2009 9:26 PM EDT

I KNOW!!!


Give the GoM the same idea of effect the AoF (+skill and ED/EO received) but replace the skill bonus with PTH for every weapon.

And when it is combine with the MenC, the extra EO received is reduced by half.

=) ; )

Kefeck [Demonic Serenity] August 5 2009 9:29 PM EDT

Hmm. instead can we get GA and the ba prices looked at?

Pretty please. :p
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