NCB/Rolling Bonus Idea... (in General)


Lochnivar August 21 2009 11:43 AM EDT

... no idea if this has been proposed or not, however:

What if you were able to apply an NCB to an existing char?

This, of course, would rely on the NCB rate being set based on the char size at the start.

My understanding is that current NCBs bonuses are calculated based on getting from 0 to x % of the top MPR. Would it be possible to change the start number in the calculations? Instead of 500R% bonus for 6 months you'd get, say, 112% but still need to hit 6 months of BA to get full benefit (like current N*Bs).

The plus sides for this are many.
1) it doesn't reward laziness any more than the current NCB
2) less of a case of disposable characters
3) allows those with mature chars that don't have time for a proper NCB to make up at least some ground

I'm sure there are other perks too... at very least there is no major change needed to game dynamics to do this as far as I can tell.

flame away :-)

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] August 21 2009 11:49 AM EDT

i pretty much like any solution that makes characters less disposable in cb land. i think this would do it and i haven't seen it or thought of it before. kudos!

Cube August 21 2009 11:50 AM EDT

Sounds like a nice, simple (relatively easy) solution. I'd really like to see this actually because I'm sure some of the other rolling bonuses that other people have proposed, we wouldn't see for a long while.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] August 21 2009 11:51 AM EDT

the only downside i see is the tat growth issue. as of now an ncb run doesn't give tat growth for the whole run, just the last little bit. of course this would give tat growth the whole time if you are under your max tat, but it would be a lesser growth so it may or may not even out.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] August 21 2009 12:08 PM EDT

Implement it now... just to shut OB up.

AdminNightStrike August 21 2009 12:14 PM EDT

> 2) less of a case of disposable characters

I hear this:
"Because of the NCB, people just keep running NCBs, and then dump the character and make a new one, because characters are disposable!"

Followed by this:
"NCBs are so darn expensive that people can't run more than 1! I'm stuck with the character that I first made, or this second chance NCB run that I got that I didn't do enough with!"


I don't get this double standard regarding "disposable characters".

Marlfox [Cult of the Valaraukar] August 21 2009 12:16 PM EDT

I like disposable characters. Probably just me, though... ;)

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] August 21 2009 12:17 PM EDT

both of those cases would be solved by this...

Eurynome Bartleby [Bartleby's] August 21 2009 12:17 PM EDT

If I had the option to simply "reset" my chars, and maybe even give them a new NCB then, I would never retire anything.

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] August 21 2009 12:19 PM EDT

NS, those of us running serial NCBs don't tend to buy BA, I doubt there are many if any spending over 100M on a char just to restart at the end of 6 months.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] August 21 2009 12:20 PM EDT

we have to call it the ocb though! ; )

Lochnivar August 21 2009 12:22 PM EDT

I actually wasn't referring to that sort of disposable NS...

Take my main char as an example:
Created Jan 1 2005 and at 3.6mil MPR

If I really want to make up any ground on the 5mil MPR top spot I will have to dispose of my char and start an NCB... and honestly, I don't want to toss him away as a forge char or retire him into the history books.

This is the 'disposable' to which I was refering.

Admiralkiller August 21 2009 12:28 PM EDT

like it.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] August 21 2009 12:30 PM EDT

also, if you do not already have a top ten tat, the only way to catch up is with an ncb run. since the game is very tat centric, the team is disposable but the gear and tat remain the focus.

giving existing characters a method of gaining mpr and gaining tat levels at an increased rate would combat much of this and put them on a more even footing to n*b's. basically the game has become so friendly to new characters at the expense of anyone sticking with a character unless you are very near the top and gaining rather than falling.

while the devs may not see it this way or understand the dynamic, it is definitely affecting our population base. we have quite a few players who do not play or play older characters half-heartedly because they do not want to make multiple ncb runs to try and catch up with a new character as that is the only option for them. you have to admit that the majority of non-bonus characters not putting usd into the game will only fall further behind.

QBsutekh137 August 21 2009 12:37 PM EDT

This also evens out any dead spots as far as challenge bonuses go, since if you have a bad stretch, you can re-up for the RCB ("Rolling" Character Bonus) and catch up some more.

One thing about any sort of "skew toward the top" bonus...bear with me...

Let's say this gets implemented, and everyone skews their active characters toward the top. So, the only thing left at lower levels are dormant characters, small farms, etc. Will that affect a truly new character from having a way to climb up the ladder? In other words, would this be big enough to basically make every active team be too far out of reach for new players? I'd never really through that through before.

Also, I assume for any team within the 95% of the top, no option to RCB that character would exist?

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] August 21 2009 12:40 PM EDT

I'd put it a little further down

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] August 21 2009 12:41 PM EDT

I really don't think I should be able to get a bonus on Dago...

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] August 21 2009 12:41 PM EDT

nightstrike, what do you see as the future for iconics? will he fall in the mpr standings, gain or hold his place?

as i stated in another thread, i think iconics is competing more on his fourth highest net worth rather than his 14th highest mpr and would expect that he only falls in the mpr standings over time.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] August 21 2009 12:42 PM EDT

Only NWO, FTW, and Mikel would be ineligible for a bonus if it was set at 95%

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] August 21 2009 12:45 PM EDT

perhaps limiting how often it could be ran would be better than an mpr cap of any type as you could always retrain to get down to the cap.

AdminNightStrike August 21 2009 12:49 PM EDT

> they do not want to make multiple ncb runs to try and catch up with a new character as that is the only option for them.

As opposed to CB1, where their options were ...... ?

So we've gone from zero options to one option, and now we need more?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] August 21 2009 12:51 PM EDT

"202 active users from the past 7 days"

magic 8-ball says perhaps!

Demigod August 21 2009 12:52 PM EDT

NS, both of the complaints you listed would be resolved by a rolling bonus.

And as far as I'm concerned, this is a nice backup option to the RB. The simple truth is that if you don't have a great NUB run, then characters are disposable to try again and again with an NCB. The game accidentally punishes long-term (after six months) players by removing any real chance of playing the race-to-the-top game that everyone else plays, but the game then taunts some players by holding over their heads the forbidden apple of a multi NUB.

Something has to give, and if it's not the creation of a rolling bonus, this may not be too bad of an option.

AdminNightStrike August 21 2009 12:52 PM EDT

dude - I don't think I'm competing on NW at all. I have an absolutely huge amount of unequipped NW. Equipped? Not that much. The tattoo is mostly where it's at, and I do very well without a tattoo (my character was constructed that way). I only keep the tattoo equipped so that I don't lose that free money.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] August 21 2009 12:54 PM EDT

so you expect to gain in mpr on the top slots then?

(0.0) [SeeD] August 21 2009 12:55 PM EDT

400m NW without a tattoo is a lot of NW. That's already in the top 10 probably. Easily in the top 15.

AdminNightStrike August 21 2009 12:58 PM EDT

dude - if I fought better, I could. Right now, I don't come close to maxing my BA. And I don't train. I have about 25m untrained XP. Maybe more.

AdminNightStrike August 21 2009 1:02 PM EDT

> as i stated in another thread, i think iconics is competing more on his fourth highest net worth rather than his 14th highest mpr and would expect that he only falls in the mpr standings over time.

What thread?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] August 21 2009 1:36 PM EDT

this be the thread i spake of:

http://www.carnageblender.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002r3A

(haha. the archaic past tense of speak is in the spellchecker, kudos!)

with both igot noname and kwai chang i got close to the top ten mpr only to fall further behind. unlike you though i was fighting all my ba as well as buying all of it.

your pr is still tenth highest which is different from 4th place net worth but i bet that still plays a role as well.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] August 21 2009 2:19 PM EDT

I would say no to a free up. This would be make everyone getting to the top even easier than a rolling bonus. Now if you set a price on getting the bonus. That increased the larger your character was to begin with then maybe it would work. You should have to buy your catchup character bonus.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] August 21 2009 2:27 PM EDT

there will be a price, the ba cost would be huge!

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] August 21 2009 2:29 PM EDT

That still wouldn't work as you would be able to catch to top without ever buying ba. It would take about 1 run after the first ncb to get within 85% of the top. And this is without buying any ba at all.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] August 21 2009 2:39 PM EDT

that is why i suggested some type of time limit on these runs rather than an mpr limit.

also, would you show the math on a 100 percent bonus catching people up that quickly using only generated ba? i don't think it would do it even with 100 percent challenge bonus as well with just one run. that would be something that would need to be looked at for the bonus amount setting though. i don't see a reason to throw out a good idea when tweaking may be the better option.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] August 21 2009 2:45 PM EDT

I never said throw it out. I just said it would need to have a buy in. Something like 10 times your mpr in cost to start it up or something. Even at 4 mil mpr that is only 40 mil. Even that might be too cheap. But something along those lines.

QBsutekh137 August 21 2009 3:34 PM EDT

If you are just going to tweak things so that it is as if NCB BA is easier to purchase, then why not just redice NCB BA cost?

If that isn't happening, neither will this. Any limitation you put on this idea: making it cost, putting in time limits, etc. is really no different than the current NCB scheme, except you can use the same character instead of starting anew. Is that all it is trying to accomplish?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] August 21 2009 4:08 PM EDT

all of our other ideas have been shot down or ignored, so yes in my opinion we are left with allowing existing characters to have a go as well.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] August 21 2009 4:12 PM EDT

"except you can use the same character instead of starting anew."

they are the only ones left out of the current scheme thus creating their disposable nature.

Lochnivar August 21 2009 4:15 PM EDT

"really no different than the current NCB scheme, except you can use the same character instead of starting anew. Is that all it is trying to accomplish?"

essentially, yes

obviously balancing of costs and rewards needs to be addressed but if people can start anew with an NCB and get up to 85% of the top MPR without buying BA then how harmful is it to allow an older char like mine to do the same in the same 6 month span?

In theory the cost of a full BA buying run ought to closely mirror an NCB (at least ideally)... so not exactly reinventing the wheel here.

QBOddBird August 21 2009 5:44 PM EDT

"
QBnovice 12:08 PM EDT
Implement it now... just to shut OB up. "

THIS.

NS, you listed 2 different viewpoints from people toward the same issue, resolved in this offered solution. It's not a double standard when it comes from multiple people.

If one guy likes oranges and hates apples, and another likes apples but hates oranges, you can't say they have a double standard about fruit. They're individual people.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 21 2009 6:19 PM EDT

What am I missing? What's the difference between this and a Traditional Rolling Bonus? You wuld use this all the time, and not buy BA (if you couldn't afford it, where the costwould go down, the higher you got).

There would be no reason to leave this 'off', so we might just as well roll the bonus into everyone's characters anyway.

Vaynard [Fees Dirt Cheap] August 21 2009 6:55 PM EDT

What am I missing here? I will admit I haven't kept up on all the rolling bonus ideas, but what is the point? What is gained by switching it from a steady bonus from the start to a variable one or a smaller one you tack on later? All the same problems will be present.

Also, how are people saying rolling bonuses will fix everything? I see people are claiming it will do everything short of curing cancer, but I see no proof or even logic.

Here's what it boils down to: if bonus changes make it easier to get to the top, teams will be worth even less. However, more people make it higher in MPR. If you want teams to be worth more, try to get bonuses taken out completely, not overhauled. But don't confuse these issues, they work against eachother. At least that is how I view it.

Here is my last question: what is the obsession with letting people catch up with old teams? Why not just make a new team with a bonus and go off to the races? I understand that perhaps people get sentimental, but if your old car just can't get you where you need to go then it is time to replace it, not beg the manufacturer to start building custom parts and tune up kits for it.

Lochnivar August 21 2009 6:55 PM EDT

Couple of differences here GL

1) you click the button and that sets your 'bonus' for the next six months a la NCB.... if you slack off in the first 3 months then you aren't gonna get an increased bonus as a result

2) No cash reward increase is included here so if you have debt, want to up your gear, etc, then this isn't a lock of a good idea...

3) The higher you are the less sense there is to clicking the button... at the top levels your BA cost or loss of clan points would perhaps not be worth getting a whole 30k or so closer to #1

Basically it is just introducing a choice... if I want to spend 200mil CB gunning for the top spot I think it would be nice to have the option of doing so with my current char.

And again, this is very heavily based on CURRENT CB game mechanics (assuming there is no great obstacle to changing the starting reference point on NCB calculations). It doesn't get you any better results or a much easier task than the current situation... it provides a sentimental option for those of us who would like one.

FailBoat[SG] August 21 2009 7:16 PM EDT

Nemerizt 2:29 PM EDT
That still wouldn't work as you would be able to catch to top without ever buying ba. It would take about 1 run after the first ncb to get within 85% of the top. And this is without buying any ba at all.

Please give some kind of facts and statistics when making this kind of a claim. I have yet to see a team, that isn't buying BA, make it to 85% of the top on a purely NCB type character.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 21 2009 7:19 PM EDT

"1) you click the button and that sets your 'bonus' for the next six months a la NCB.... if you slack off in the first 3 months then you aren't gonna get an increased bonus as a result"

No, you get it agian in three months, by clicking the button again. And becuase you slacked off originally, your lower than you would have been, so have a higher bonus now.

"2) No cash reward increase is included here so if you have debt, want to up your gear, etc, then this isn't a lock of a good idea..."

None of the Rolling Bonus ideas I saw every had a cash reward increase.

"3) The higher you are the less sense there is to clicking the button... at the top levels your BA cost or loss of clan points would perhaps not be worth getting a whole 30k or so closer to #1"

But the smaller bonus you would get, so the smaller the increased BA cost it. It would still be the best way to go to grow your MPR.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love *anything* like this to be implemented. But I can't see the diference betwee a RB and this, except you need to push this every 6 months.

If we get that, why not go the extra step and just make it automtic?

If we're not getitng a RB, then this idea doesn't seem different enough to get put in place either. :(

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] August 21 2009 7:25 PM EDT

No. That's all I have to say about something that automatically happens every 3-6 months, whatever. It is a pure bonus, no costs. You should NOT get a free ride to the top. That is basically what you are proposing.

It might work alright if you had a cost when you start it up. It would have to cost more and more the closer you were to the top as well.

Lochnivar August 21 2009 7:33 PM EDT

my comment
"obviously balancing of costs and rewards needs to be addressed but if people can start anew with an NCB and get up to 85% of the top MPR without buying BA then how harmful is it to allow an older char like mine to do the same in the same 6 month span?

In theory the cost of a full BA buying run ought to closely mirror an NCB (at least ideally)... so not exactly reinventing the wheel here. "

Nem's comment
"You should NOT get a free ride to the top. That is basically what you are proposing."

Learn to read, it can be rewarding and will enable you to make valid criticisms.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] August 21 2009 7:41 PM EDT

What I mean is that according to what GL said you can just click to get the bonus. It doesn't mean that you have to buy any ba. If you never buy any ba but can always start a new bonus every 6 months where are the costs? You will still always be catching the top player as you have a bonus over him. It just might take a little longer to get there.

With an NCB right now without buying any ba you can get to 60-70% of the top mpr. Now if you start a new bonus at that point. Lets say you start at 60% then this next run, still without buying any ba. You should get 60-70% of the difference between 60% and 95% meaning that you should hit about 81% of the top mpr by the end of it if you got the equivalent of 60% both times. how about the next one. You will get up to about 90%. So you are looking at 3 runs or 18 months to be completely in the top mpr without ever buying any ba.

Demigod August 21 2009 7:43 PM EDT

Nem, wasn't the intent of the N*B to get that close in the first place? The rolling bonus or this modified bonus really just correct the current broken system.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] August 21 2009 7:47 PM EDT

^if you limit it to one of these runs per 24 month period that would take care of the successive runs to catch up no?

Lochnivar August 21 2009 7:49 PM EDT

... ok, fundamental mis-understanding at work here
(and sorry if I was abrupt in my last post)

if, as you state, an NCB can't get past 70% of Mikel's MPR without buying BA then neither can a char under my proposal.

I am currently right around that 70% mark. If I were to click the button and fight without buying BA for 6 months then I would end up staying right around that same 70% mark. No gain, and nothing but lost clan points for the click.

This ain't a free ride program, and in fact one of the things I dislike about most rolling bonus ideas.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] August 21 2009 8:12 PM EDT

How do you accomplish that? If you're above 70% you get no bonus unless it's (expensively) bought BA?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] August 21 2009 8:24 PM EDT

there would be some point where the bonus amount of an ocb buying no ba and getting all natural regen would equal the amount of mpr that would have been gained with no bonus and buying ba. finding that sweet spot would likely take trial and error though and have to be adjusted with certain changes to the game, but i guess that should be happening now as well with the n*bs.

FailBoat[SG] August 21 2009 8:34 PM EDT

I'm about two changes away from becoming a Multi anyways but I must say its funny to see that a proposal that is offering a Recurring Rolling Bonus, to all characters, is seen as too powerful and would allow people to catch up to the top. I forget, was the only intention of CB to be either to make it to the top ten in you NUB or forever spend your days doing nothing but mucking about in the 30-50% area?

QBRanger August 22 2009 12:27 PM EDT

"As opposed to CB1, where their options were ...... ? "

Strap on the biggest baddest ELB you can get and fight up as high as possible for as long as possible.

Even though we never saw the Challenge Bonus, it was there as well as the hiddern bonus for fighting characters with a high score.

This was not equivalent to the NCB or NUB, but it did let you fight higher longer.

I hope the idea is to keep people in CB for longer and get more people into it.

I have to agree with the posters about how characters being disposable is bad for the game. I get attached to a character, and once its NCB is over, basically that is it for that character. Unless you really up you NW, there is no way to catch those above you.

It was a bit better when the BA regeneration rate was every 10 min, when you could fight more battles if really dedicated, but now, even casual users can fight almost all their battles.

Something needs to be done to make the game less static and more fun especially after ones super bonus is over.

Zenai August 22 2009 12:38 PM EDT

Maybe a Ramping Time after the Bonus is over would help with the Uber Bonus Withdraws....like 30% - 50% less a week until it is finished. At the very least it could get people to get used to having less of a bonus gradually instead of the Major Drop off we have now.

Just throwing an idea out so please let's not start super analyzing ok?
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