I can't do that Dave (in General)


AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] August 30 2009 12:49 AM EDT

http://www.carnageblender.com/gc/view-one.tcl?classified_ad_id=128031

nerfbait!

three4thsforsaken August 30 2009 12:54 AM EDT

it's popular. is that bad?

QBRanger August 30 2009 12:55 AM EDT

Not yet the record:

http://www.carnageblender.com/gc/view-one.tcl?classified_ad_id=126224

rockdiva42 August 30 2009 12:56 AM EDT

Seems when a base tattoo goes for almost 2 million and yet other base tattoos will sell for about 300k or less, then yes, something would seem to be a bit weird in the balance of the tattoo.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] August 30 2009 12:57 AM EDT

The popularity isn't bad, it's just a very clear sign in my mind that the changes people have talked about for it are very needed.

Lower the PTH, lower it's XP levels to compensate for the massive NW of the bow (which approaches the NW of the tat itself).

three4thsforsaken August 30 2009 12:58 AM EDT

maybe everyone wants to go tank but not spend the money? That doesn't mean Hal is unbalanced, it just means that tanks are expensive and hard to reach to an appreciable level.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] August 30 2009 12:59 AM EDT

good point Ranger... but I haven't heard any good suggestions for dealing with the RoBF...

Demigod August 30 2009 1:00 AM EDT

"Lower the PTH"

+1

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] August 30 2009 1:01 AM EDT

3/4: is it fair to have a tat with XP equivalent to the other tats AND a NW component larger than any other NW component to any other tat?

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] August 30 2009 1:03 AM EDT

Actually the Hal gets MORE XP (if you could Archery) than any other tat AND the NW component

QBRanger August 30 2009 1:07 AM EDT

And just passed this record for the ToA:

http://www.carnageblender.com/gc/view-one.tcl?classified_ad_id=125306

Should we nerf all 3 at the same time?

Price spikes happen on wanted tattoos. However, that does not mean they are overpowered. Just that some tattoo are not as used now.

Well that and the ToE is utter garbage now and the FF has friendly fire neutering its abilities.

The SF is ok, just tough to use with a large AS. And I have seen more and more people switching to DM. One can thank the NSC for making AMF essentially useless. Except for a base one vs decay. And with PL, one can effectively block decay with a low hp minion in front.

My suggestion to make familiars and the ToE more useful would be to:

1) Get rid of fireballs friendly fire. If not get rid of it, just make a skill to lower it. Then mages have to xpend some xp, lowering the effective FB level.

2) Change the NSC from lowering the effect totally of AMF to lowering the AMF backlash damage. This way mages can get a nice benefit on lasting longer, while AMF would finally not be needed in such massive xp costs to be moderately effective.

3) Give the ToE the ability to lower GA damage by the same % it does physical. Possibly give the RBF resistance also. Right now there are 4 types of damage that I can think of. Physical, magical, RBF and GA. Have the ToE protect vs at least 2 of the 4. I would prefer 3 and leave magic off.

Do those 3 things and more people will go to familiars/ToE, lowering the costs of the other familiars.

Less damage = lower costs

QBRanger August 30 2009 1:10 AM EDT

Should be:

Less demand = less cost.

But the other way works also.

Less damage = less demand = less cost.

Just another way to solve a bit of HF imbalance.

I would like to do it a different way :)

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] August 30 2009 1:18 AM EDT

after my comparison of the jiggy to hal, i do believe it is still too much!

ranger, i thought that in the past you had stated that you thought its pth was perhaps too high, has that opinion changed or am i remembering wrong?

regardless of what happens with the hal, i do believe the jiggy needs a linear damage model in a big way. i would like to see that done first as the hal may not seem so strong once the jiggy is on a balance damage model.

three4thsforsaken August 30 2009 1:22 AM EDT

"Price spikes happen on wanted tattoos. However, that does not mean they are overpowered. Just that some tattoo are not as used now. "

Yay! Ranger :D

I find the thought kind of silly that the strength of an item is proportional to its popularity or invisible NW.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] August 30 2009 1:28 AM EDT

yet i seem to remember threads created proclaiming the number of robf's (during their overpowered heyday) being used as proof of their overpoweredness. they were since nerfed, so it must be true? ; )

Windwalker August 30 2009 1:34 AM EDT

So ya got Ranger and Sut in the top 20 with HaLs (couple of the largest tats in the game) there are far more RoBF and RoS in that neighborhood.Does that mean they are OP?

QBRanger August 30 2009 1:36 AM EDT

Yes Dude I did say the HF was a bit more powerful than other tattoos. And at that time I thought the HF needed a nerf.

However, then I got to wondering why other tattoos were to as wanted.

I think doing the changes I proposed would help raise the values of the other tattoos and cause less of a demand for the HF, ToA and RBF.

Opposed to what I first thought.

But if the HF is nerfbait, is not the RBF and ToA also by the criteria used in this thread?

QBRanger August 30 2009 1:37 AM EDT

The RBF was minimally nerfed.

Not enough to make it as weak as the FF.

Non-GA damage, always hitting, a bit of evasion and a bit of magic resistance all wrapped up in 1 neat package.

What more can you want for a lot of people.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] August 30 2009 1:38 AM EDT

3/4: so it is fair in your mind that the Hal gets more XP than other minion based familiars, and virtual NW?

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] August 30 2009 1:41 AM EDT

The ToA only gives 88% of the tats level in XP, no minion/kill slot and only 1/3 if it's NW. Hal is at 180% of the tats level in XP, a kill slot and more than 2/3 of the tat's NW as a virtual ELB.

There is NO comparison

QBRanger August 30 2009 1:53 AM EDT

The ToA cannot be compared to other tattoos that easily.

It gives ALL its xp to the wearer. Effectively creating a super minion.

If used right, on a minion with high xp concentration anyway, its power is very high. And gives 1/3 its NW to its wearer.

Familiars are a separate tattoo, with its own xp and NW.

And how does someone compute the xp and NW of the RBF. As its attack is priceless.

I do agree that auction prices are indicative of demand for the tattoo.

There are 2 ways to lower that demand. Either reduced its effectiveness or make others in its class more effect.

I think my ideas would help.

Alternatively, I would have little problem with less PTH on the HF. But too low and you can make it useless. As we saw when they first came out when nobody used one. At least now it is a useful tattoo.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] August 30 2009 2:10 AM EDT

Ok, so if we're trying to bring all the other tats up to the level of the Hal...

DD familiars should get specialized skills and more HP

The RoS should add a lot more levels to the minion it's equipped on

The ToE should be removed, I see no way to save it. Replace it with a a tat that Lowers GA return and has additional effects to keep a damage dealer alive (massive AC bonus during ranged rounds when equipped with a Mithril or Tower shield).

The JKF and it's ability to add to UC with XP from the Junction minion doesn't really need much in my opinion.

AdminTitan August 30 2009 2:20 AM EDT

Nerf them both, and I have plenty ideas on how to do that to the RoBF if for some reason no one can think of any.

{Wookie}-Jir.Vr- August 30 2009 2:22 AM EDT

I really don't see the imbalance, in regards to HAL. Having ran a Hal at full MTL for over 2m MPR and using high NW rental bows, the damage wasn't really any more than my tank was doing on it's own. The Hal doesn't have very much life, and there are a lot of things going against it. Evasion. DBs. Exbows. Axbows. Lots of instances where the Hal has to overcome more than one of these obstructions.

No other familiar has to deal with these things, there is not even close to that many ways to completely annihilate a magic familiar, AMF is weak, AMF/GA is a huge investment compared to the monetary investment required to stop a Hal in it's tracks.

No one seems to care or talk about Jig > Hal... Sure FF/ToE kind of suck, so maybe boosting them would be beneficial, but I think the Hal is very balanced when it comes to CARNAGE BLENDER.

Meaning. You can compare them side by side and say X is better than X, but in reality that doesn't mean anything because as soon as you look at it from an overall perspective, it's pretty balanced between the HAL/RoBF/ToA/JIG/IF ... at least I seem to think so.

.02

AdminTitan August 30 2009 2:23 AM EDT

Oh and Ranger: If the Hal is on equal terms with the ToA why did you try a ToA and switch almost immediately back to he Hal?

{Wookie}-Jir.Vr- August 30 2009 2:25 AM EDT

Titan, I can answer your question to Ranger with an intelligent guess.

Because the Hal/Tank moves through kill slots faster than a single ToA tank.

Meaning a single tank can only win a battle in a minimum of 4 rounds against a 4 minion team, where as a 2 archer team can accomplish it in half the time.

(if I said that right >_<)

AdminTitan August 30 2009 2:28 AM EDT

Actually, I'm sure it had more to deal with the fact that Ranger has ungodly amounts of money into the + on his bow, so the NW component of the ToA was doing jack. The extra DX granted from ToA probably added no one to his list. His ST probably increased his damage in comparable portions to Hal's damage, but wait, there's more! Since you don't have to put the Hal on your tank (A benefit as stated by Ranger earlier) you can now where the TSA and the EC. If I had money to put in my SoD, I wouldn't even think about whether or not do the exact thing he has.

{WW]Nayab [Cult of the Valaraukar] August 30 2009 3:15 AM EDT

"1) Get rid of fireballs friendly fire. If not get rid of it, just make a skill to lower it. Then mages have to xpend some xp, lowering the effective FB level."

This has come up before and it is a VERY good idea that should be put to use.

"2) Change the NSC from lowering the effect totally of AMF to lowering the AMF backlash damage. This way mages can get a nice benefit on lasting longer, while AMF would finally not be needed in such massive xp costs to be moderately effective. :

Much better idea, make it so that AMF isn't wasted xp in the late game.

3) Give the ToE the ability to lower GA damage by the same % it does physical. Possibly give the RBF resistance also. Right now there are 4 types of damage that I can think of. Physical, magical, RBF and GA. Have the ToE protect vs at least 2 of the 4. I would prefer 3 and leave magic off.

Brilliant idea, very much hope it gets implemented. Except I would want protection from RBF and Physical before GA damage. GA can be countered after all.

Cube August 30 2009 3:31 AM EDT

All 3 very good proposals, and I think needed to bring those tattoos to par.

three4thsforsaken August 30 2009 4:11 AM EDT

"3/4: so it is fair in your mind that the Hal gets more XP than other minion based familiars, and virtual NW? "

Sure, cause I don't find it relevant in terms of measuring power, not that relevant that is.

This is what goes on in my mind.

In my mind I sit down and go, "Is hal overpowered because it gives a huge strategic advantage to its users?"

Then I say, "Well, Hal's primary strategic purpose is a damage dealer, with HP."

Then I ask, "Is Hal doing too much damage?"

Then I say, "Well, considering it's most effective in ranged, I think the damage is very fair for a familiar. My understanding of familiars says that they can exist as principle damage dealers, since Hal is a familiar but most effective in ranged, it is only fair that it has damage in the ballpark of other familiars."

Then I think, "Well, but many people think that all this necessary strength and invisible NW makes it overpowered, but how can the Hal do decent tank damage without it? As I see it, all the levels and NW of the Hal are necessary because tanks naturally need more levels and NW to reach the same means of damage. They help offset the str/dex equips Hal misses out on as well as the real inflexibility in allocating their statistics."

It continues, "But what happens if we actually nerf it, just so it's levels and NW look nicer for those imbalanced folks. How much damage would it do? Would it still be in the ball park I am comfortable with? Would people even bother using it? I know I wouldn't. "

Then I ask another question, "Perhaps Hal has too much HP, that's the real problem"

Then I think, "Well, they rely on a bunch of smaller hits, unlike mage familiars. GA would probably stop them in their tracks even better than they do now. But to tell you the truth, it probably wouldn't change their effectiveness much. Actually, to tell you the truth, Hal's seem either DM or AS reliant. I don't think HP is the secret behind their popularity."

And then I ask, "Why are they popular?"

Then the answer is obvious, "Well, it is a cheap tank. I guess it's nice to have a tank that is actually effective without investing in a weapon. You know, if upper end weapons were more mechanically assessable, I bet the Hal wouldn't be as sought out. Perhaps, their popularity is not representative of their strength, but the desire for people to differentiate their damage sources without spending a huge sum of money. "

I could go on, but yeah. You asked.

three4thsforsaken August 30 2009 4:19 AM EDT

Then I ask, "Has any of the above thoughts found a real reason that Hal gives anyone a real unfair strategic advantage?"

Then I say to myself in an empty rubber room, "If you treat the invisible NW and levels as a means for Hal to deal damage, and you believe Hal's damage is fair then I don't believe so. If there is to be an problem with Hal it should be a beef with it's damage output not it's levels and NW, cause although they are related only one it a real indicator of its real strategic value."

three4thsforsaken August 30 2009 4:30 AM EDT

Then under my breath I have to continue, "Well, I guess you could argue that the HP of the Hal is unnecessarily high, I have no real evidence to support or refute that. I also feel a common argument is based on the logic: Hal's are easier to run than normal tanks, then Hal is possible overpowered. Most of my arguments are based on the mage/tank front rather than the tank/tank front. I assume that overpoweredness is based on the grounds (being damage comparasion) against mages and mage familiars of equal levels and values. This means that although a halidon familiar might be easier to run than a normal ToA tank, doesn't mean anything unless it is far easier than running a mage familiar. Cause on a competitive level, it only matters how things do compared to the most common style of play (that being mages atm). I feel the tank/tank front argument is much less viable at the moment, because tanks naturally need so much NW to be effective, so it becomes a comparison of not only game to game mechanics but a case by case investment of players and concepts of fairness and USD. Is a player entitled to run a tank without USD investment?"

three4thsforsaken August 30 2009 5:10 AM EDT

One last post, to close off thoughts that really really bother me.

I ask, "Perhaps people are asking other questions. If I spent so much money building a weapon, is it fair that someone runs a Hal and gets the same results? But does it even matter that even though the Hal is doing better than my tank with no weapon investment, that it is still doing just as well as mages with no investment as well? Perhaps people are just bitter about how far their NW is going, when cheaper, but equally effective options are available? But this has always been the argument between tank and mage balance, now it has just moved to the tank and tank famailiar battlefront. How lame."

Brakke Bres [Ow man] August 30 2009 7:03 AM EDT

The RoBF is hardly an issue here. Why? no ranged attack. Its damage is easily foiled by any amount of AC, unlike the HaL, it only gets 1 attack each round, unlike the hal or ToA user,


Its EXP is split between DD protection (25% max), AMF backlash protection (25% max), small evasion (1/10 of the nw?) and damage (30% max)

No why the HaL is so good? No evasion, multiple hits every round in ranged, the nw of the HaL is the nw of the bow the hal uses, AC doesn't really stop that much damage. Its less susceptible to the AMF/GA comby.

And as always it a familiar you can overload with NW.

Brakke Bres [Ow man] August 30 2009 7:44 AM EDT

ow I'm a bit biased here on the RoBF question. The only thing I can think of as being overpowered for the robf is its perfect damage. GA won't react to it.

QBRanger August 30 2009 9:46 AM EDT

Yes,

The RBF's perfect damage makes it a great tattoo.

Add in the other things such as the smallish evasion and the magic resistance on top and you have a great package.

And while its damage is foiled by a large AC, it is constant damage that eventually over 50 rounds does the job quite nicely.

Just ask Mikel and other RBF users with a high AC. They do eventually die.

I would just hate to have the HF go back to the old HF where nobody used it.

Tanks do need NW to compete, and the HF needs its hidden NW.

Aside from the 3 suggestions I made, I would like to see a 4th and 5th.

4) Lower the missile round penalties to magic damage by 1/2. Make it more in line with the penalties tanks get to hit in missile.

5) Give familiars evasion equal to 1/10th their level.

I have brough up both ideas in the past and both got shot down. But I still stand by them.

QBRanger August 30 2009 9:52 AM EDT

Titan:

I tried the ToA for testing purposes.

My archery was at .5 so all the losses you saw were not real as I would lower my strength and boost my HP/archery if I would go to a ToA for the long term.

However, with a minion to hold the familiar, the TSA is a very good item to use with my tank.

If I had two equal minions, I likely would use the ToA like Vectoidz. But with 1 huge minion and 1 small minion, the HF gives me, as you state, an extra kill slot and another damage dealer to get through kill slots.

kevlar August 30 2009 10:29 AM EDT

I think a big reason the HF is OP (if Jon believes it is) is due to the ability to double/triple hit. Especially after talking about 180%XP and 3/4ths ELBs...

if a Hal only "shot" once like all the other familiars, then it might be a little different.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] August 30 2009 10:33 AM EDT

ranger, and sut if you are reading this, what are the bonus to hit numbers on your tats at that level?

QBRanger August 30 2009 10:37 AM EDT

Ranged Bonus to-Hit 267

The problem if you make the HF shoot only 1 time a round is that once melee starts, the HF is nearly worthless.

60% dex penalty, shooting every other round does not a good familiar make.

The HF has to be able to multihit in missile rounds to be an effective familiar.

kevlar August 30 2009 10:40 AM EDT

no you just make it fire once solid like any other one even in melee, not every other round

QBRanger August 30 2009 10:43 AM EDT

If you do that Kevlar, I can tell you most people would not use it.

I do about 700k with my HF max per hit.

An equal level SF does about that vs DM in the early rounds of missile, ramping up to over 1.8M in the last missile round/melee rounds.

Given that the HF can miss and the MM always hits, the HF has to be able to multihit to be effective.

And it is very hard given the NSC to get a high AMF vs DD spells now. As most people are using DM that I can see.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] August 30 2009 10:45 AM EDT

"The problem if you make the HF shoot only 1 time a round is that once melee starts, the HF is nearly worthless.

60% dex penalty, shooting every other round does not a good familiar make.

The HF has to be able to multihit in missile rounds to be an effective familiar."

bows with archery aren't limited by that as well?

would the highest tat in the game now, if it was a hal, surpass the strongest ranged weapons plus to hit? would it surpass the strongest 100 base to hit elb? do you not see a potential long-term issue there?

QBRanger August 30 2009 10:48 AM EDT

It would surpass the highest PTH, but it would not surpass the highest x.

I do over 2x the damage of my HF. The PTH gives the HF an extra .4 hits a round.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] August 30 2009 10:53 AM EDT

with the new evasion working as it does as well as it being on a curve, there is really no way to catch up and the bonus to hit on the hal's will just continue to grow. i see this causing issues further down the road.

this is also the reason i see for the jiggy needing to be put on a linear damage model. we need some kind of consistency for the longevity of the game with these familiars. it will break down at some point if one physical damage familiars damage is on a curve and one is linear as well as with one's bonus to hit being more lenient than the other unless the other's evasion can grow in the same fashion as the others bonus to hit.

i have showed in a spreadsheet how the jiggy's bonus to hit and evasion are much more constrained in their growth than the bonus to hit on the hal. in effect they seem to have a curved growth model that slows the growth dramatically. i am still not really seeing that with the hal. perhaps its bonus to hit was balanced on the old evasion?

QBRanger August 30 2009 10:56 AM EDT

I agree 100% about making the Jiggy and UC linear in damage.

However, if you increase the evasion curve to a linear model, the only way to hit one via physical would be the HF as it gets more and more expensive to increase the PTH on weapons.

With a ToA, my PTH rises from 227 to 264. Given the Jigs dex, with evasion I would never hit even with my ELB.

Evasion is fine, the damage model is not.

kevlar August 30 2009 11:00 AM EDT

that is true, forgot about the guaranteed hit with the other ones. But 700k per hit does tally to 1.4mil to a possible 2.1 mil every round not just in the last ranged round right?

The defense I do have for the HF is that EC effects it (if I remember this correctly) I tried using a HF and the EC some opponents used hurt it quite a bit. I don't know if EC is effective on a higher tat level or not, but maybe that is why the XP bonus is like it is now.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] August 30 2009 11:01 AM EDT

i never said change evasion to linear, just keep the curve more similar to the bonus to hit curve on the hal. i am talking shape of the curve here, not the values. in effect jiggy evasion on a 10m tat shouldn't be half of the of bonus to hit on the hal and steadily losing ground should it?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] August 30 2009 11:07 AM EDT

for example a 10m level jiggy will only have 131 evasion. your just shy of 9m hal has already double the bonus to hit at 267.

from 9m to 10m levels the jiggy's evasion only increases by 6 levels.

the hal increases by 6 levels bonus to hit from around 8m to 8.5m. i am not saying that the jiggy has to be the foil for the hal, what i am saying though is that the hal's bonus to hit growth curve is one of the most lenient in the game and perhaps was balanced on old evasion, not new evasion.

kevlar August 30 2009 11:08 AM EDT

good points Dudemus.

The easiest solution would be to make the Hal more of a "magical" archer (since familiars are kind of magic based anyway) and have the guaranteed hit and then bonuses could be set equally compared to the other familiars more easily. Could talk about ways to make it appealing and different in its own right as compared to a FF, SF, EF, etc. (although off topic the FF needs help in its own right with that annoying worthless splash damage).

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] August 30 2009 11:12 AM EDT

i am not asking that the jiggy (uc) get linear damage and better evasion. i see the problem with evasion being the hal bonus to hit more than the jiggy evasion. with that in mind i think the jiggy (uc) should be changed to a linear damage model while the bonus to hit curve on the hal is matched, in shape not levels, to the evasion curve in the game.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] August 30 2009 11:13 AM EDT

kev, that isn't a bad idea. would the jiggy be changed as well? i will have to ponder that one as i haven't thought of it before! ; )

QBRanger August 30 2009 11:14 AM EDT

However,

Now one can boost the Jigs evasion by learning evasion/UC on the minion holding it.

The HF has a fixed PTH.

Does using EGs and EBs also boost the Jigs evasion?

There is no way to boost the HF PTH other than level it.

Give the Jig more evasion and you run into potential super boosting making it invulnerable to all physical, given the HF is becoming the only thing with high PTH. Except for a couple ELBs.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] August 30 2009 11:18 AM EDT

"Give the Jig more evasion and you run into potential super boosting making it invulnerable to all physical, given the HF is becoming the only thing with high PTH. Except for a couple ELBs."

which is why i stated that giving the jig more evasion is not the solution i seek, putting hal's bonus to hit on an evasion shaped curve is.

evasion is on such a major curve that it has an effective cap much like the pth on weapons. if the hal has that, we haven't reached it or seen it yet.

QBRanger August 30 2009 11:20 AM EDT

From my battle with Incompletant Duo, a JKF character with 1M less MPR and a Jig lower than mine:

Hal hit Kano-san [476711]
Inept Enchanter absorbs damage [476711]
Dog shot Kano-san with The Lunatic [1415294]
Inept Enchanter absorbs damage [1371333]

Inept Enchanter regenerated 188,966 HP

Hal hit Kano-san [545917]
Inept Enchanter absorbs damage [545917]
Dog shot Kano-san with The Lunatic [1469487]
Inept Enchanter absorbs damage [1371333]

Inept Enchanter regenerated 188,966 HP

Hal hit Kano-san [525031]
Inept Enchanter absorbs damage [525031]
Dog hit Kano-san with The Lunatic [1501783]
Inept Enchanter absorbs damage [1371333]

Inept Enchanter regenerated 188,966 HP

Hal hit Kano-san [534289]
Inept Enchanter absorbs damage [534289]
Dog hit Kano-san with The Lunatic [1288573]
Inept Enchanter absorbs damage [1288573]

Inept Enchanter regenerated 188,966 HP

Hal shot Kano-san [585301]
Inept Enchanter absorbs damage [356912]
Hal hit Kano-san [471017]
Dog shot Kano-san with The Lunatic [1425264]

Inept Enchanter regenerated 188,966 HP

Hal hit Kano-san [722475]
Inept Enchanter absorbs damage [208786]
Hal struck deep into Kano-san [596889]
Hal cries "I can't let you do that, Dave!"

1 hit a round in missile. Lower the HF's PTH and I will miss him. A lower Jig.

Seems to me evasion is just fine.

QBRanger August 30 2009 11:21 AM EDT

A Jigorokano Familiar lvl 6,435,151 owned by LightningRaider (Incompetent Duo)

vs

My HF at just under 9M levels.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] August 30 2009 11:22 AM EDT

junctioned elven gear will boost evasion but even very high items at the top will only give a level or two of evasion due to its cost curve.

junctioning evasion to a jiggy actually gives less boost than junctioning uc due to the minion dex penalty and once again will matter little when you get to the expensive levels of the evasion cost curve.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] August 30 2009 11:28 AM EDT

he is boosting it with junctioned uc in your example above and has junctioned elven boots on. his evasion is likely not high enough on the curve to "capping out" yet but i would need to see all the numbers and would like to see what he does with the jiggy's innate evasion only against ya. ;)

QBRanger August 30 2009 11:32 AM EDT

The thing is that hardly anyone uses a Jiggy without junctioning items or skills.

If one could not junction over skills and items, yes the HF is too powerful.

But given the AoJ makes junctioning UC possible, things are different.

Like back in the day when the AoF boosted evasion to super levels that tanks dexterity could not keep up with.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] August 30 2009 11:37 AM EDT

kwai chang was losing ground on heroes hal. in effect you were getting more hits in ranged as we grew. this was during a time when all of our tats were growing at a similar rate or mine was growing more and they were fairly close in levels.

should that have been happening or if they are in balance, should they have stayed about the same number of hits? i believe that they should have stayed about the same number of hits given equal growth and that is what i am trying to get across. over time with max gear and junction a hal will only get more hits during ranged against an equal jiggy.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] August 30 2009 11:38 AM EDT

^i forgot that the above results were also with an ever-increasing ethereal chains on my team's part as well.

Almaisky August 30 2009 11:39 AM EDT

Dudemus, You have to take into account that the Jiggy isn't made to be an evasion wall. It only trains Evasion at 17% of it's level.

Why would you expect a naked Jiggy to be able to dodge almost all of a specialized archer's shots?

QBRanger August 30 2009 11:41 AM EDT

Dude,

At that time Junction was a skill.

Now that it is an amulet, one can junction UC and boost its evasion.

One cannot boost the HFs PTH.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] August 30 2009 11:45 AM EDT

sigh, i am not expecting that and never said i was. i do think the the evasion and hal bonus to hit curves should be the same shape, not at the same levels. i am not sure how to get people to understand that this means nothing in regards to how often one dodges.

simply, they should grow at the same rate but not at the same level. i am using jiggy evasion only to show that the hal bonus to hit is one crazy lenient curve for upper game mechanics.

another example is comparing the bonus to hit on ranger's hal with the top weapons and especially the top elb. what will the bonus to hit be at when hals reach 15m levels?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] August 30 2009 11:46 AM EDT

when i speak of it was after the change. i tried evasion and uc before bloodlust was fixed. your hal was adding hits on me over time. i don't have proof of it, but the curves show the same thing.

AdminTitan August 30 2009 11:46 AM EDT

I don't know if people still think this is a good idea, but.... linear evasion for the jiggy would be a terrible idea, terrible terrible terrible. Fix the Hal's pth, not the other way around....I mean as much as I LOVE running familiar teams, I'd like to have a chance with my real SoD/Bow without dropping 2 grand after I pay my tuition.

AdminTitan August 30 2009 11:49 AM EDT

^ On that note, UC already has a close to linear growth model, I mean, I know it's not linear, but have you seen the difference in it compared to weapons... I think that evasion should actually be lowered some how for the jiggy. Over time, their evasion is going to become quite nice in relation to the pth of weapons...maybe not the Hal, but that's another problem all together.

AdminTitan August 30 2009 11:53 AM EDT

Sorry, long day, exclude the second post... What I was actually recalling was the pth of UC. If the damage gets changed to linear the pth of UC needs some rescaling, not major, but some.

Brakke Bres [Ow man] August 30 2009 1:00 PM EDT

So Ranger that only means evasion is doing its horrible job.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 30 2009 2:52 PM EDT

"Yes,

The RBF's perfect damage makes it a great tattoo."

Just commenting on this.

I showed, ages ago, that out of all the DDs and Familiars, level for level, the RoBF deals the east damage out of them all. It's also unboostable in any way, unlike al the others (Not even Leadership will help).

So if it's damage is great, becuase it can't be retaliated on by GA, doesn't this rather imply that GA is too much (as we all know at the moment), and when GA is rescaled, the RoBF damage will become a lot more /meh?

;)

As for the Hal. I doubt most will agree with this. But;

The Hal shows *implicitly* why having free NW skews balance. It should be performing equivalently to another Tattoo of the same size, as that would indicate balance. But it's massive, hidden NW, that adds no 'power', increases it's power drastically.

QBRanger August 30 2009 3:46 PM EDT

So remove all the HFs NW.

Then it is worthless.

Tanks need NW while mages andDD familiars get "free" damage.

Also the RBF damage is not vulnerable to either GA or AMF.

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] August 30 2009 4:10 PM EDT

Sure the Hal needs decent pth to function but it does seem to get it PR free unlike regular tanks. That said I don't think increasing PR by some ratio to pth would be satisfactory nerf for a familiar.
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