naming bonus and tattoo growth (in General)


TheHatchetman September 4 2009 11:00 PM EDT

When a tattoo is named, it will not grow until the MTL of a character has reached the postbonus tattoo level. For example, a named 2m tat will not grow until 2,080,000 MTL. With the rate tats grow compared to MTL, 2/3 of the naming's bonus is negated by the lost growth every time it is grown by a character that is building up to it. This makes tattoos the only items that are affected negatively by being named.

You can add massive amounts of effective net worth to a minion with a few named items, and hide it from encumbrance. Can't base level and MTL get along? ^_^

QBRanger September 5 2009 12:47 AM EDT

I would agree that it is very odd to have the post naming effective level be used when matching against MTL.

I had assumed naming was "invisible" when naming items, only really used once battle started.

Analogous to having the ToA's free PTH count towards a minions encumbrance load or even towards PR.

Perhaps Jon or NS can reevaluate why it works this way.

kevlar September 5 2009 1:10 AM EDT

this is based on growth as NCB / NUB right? If so, it's the reason I waited for my ride to end before I named my tat.

I like the tat naming the way it is. If you want a 4% bonus on your tat, you name it. If you want to grow it or plan to, you don't get the bonus while doing so. Thus making naming a tat a privilege. It's a unique element to the game, however, 12 months is a long time to have to wait, if someone makes a mistake or isn't sure about the specifics.

Enter NightStrike and the new feature to CANCEL namings! It could allow players to quell a mistake and make more money for the game at the same time if people rename early :)

(I always thought a feature to change the name of your named item would be nice, whether it was free or had some sort of fee to it)

kevlar September 5 2009 1:22 AM EDT

and I meant not just to correct mistakes, but would allow people to choose growth again and not have to wait on MTL until they are ready to rename again.

Zenai September 5 2009 1:48 AM EDT

Kev most of the time I agree with you but this time I just do not. I feel the same as Hatch on this....it is the ONLY thing in naming that has a Negative effect on your Item in order to give it a Positive effect....to me that cancels out :-/ Granted being able to Name your Tattoo/Rune/Familiar is just toooo cool, but when it seems to have a negative effect when in fact you are paying for a positive effect well I kinda have to say huh? That kinda takes away from the incentive to name it in the first place.


So far the only way I get to have the extra is because of Vanities sake......everything I own is Red! Muahahahahaha Aside from Vanity yes I do get that 4% Bonus but at the Price of 4% Growth for the Duration of the naming.....kinda not cool considering I paid for something and should be able to keep it. If I up my weapon or Armor I get to keep that upgrade, with the Tattoo/Rune/Familiar I do not. If this was the true intention, to get something from losing something well fight on if not is there a fix for this?

kevlar September 5 2009 3:16 AM EDT

I totally get where you guys are coming from. I was just thinking about how naming tats was possibly intended and just like the current set-up, except for the fact you can't cancel a name. If I'm close as to why it is the way it is, being able to cancel the name would be the fix that is needed. Actually, being able to switch the name off and on would be really sweet. While growing the tat (at the MTL 4% void), you can turn the name off and the tat focuses all energies in that aspect, but when done growing (safe from the 4% void and still able to grow), you can flip on the name and the tat focuses all its energy into the 4%bonus while still being able to grow.

But if not allowing us to cancel/"turn off/on" the naming, I'm with you guys all the way. I don't think it is right to have a named tatoo already when planning a NCB and then getting stuck in that situation when rolling it.

(your minion looks sunburned with all that redness, Z. Maybe he's blushing because he's in <3 ... or its all that blood spurting everywhere from the puree setting you put on the blender ;)

RaptorX September 5 2009 6:31 AM EDT

I agree, he looks sunburned. Oh and on the Tat thing too. It used to be able to grow a bit faster by being named so I named mine-- now I wish I hadn't since it started growing later so will always be smaller than it would be without naming.... right? Very odd 'bonus'.

AdminNightStrike September 5 2009 11:50 AM EDT

Raptor, tattoos never grew faster because of being named.

Kevlar, while the feature sounds cool, I would assume that very few people would waste the cash to cancel a name.

Hatch, I'm guessing that the number of people that fall into this category are very small, and they don't stay there for very long at all. It doesn't take more than a CB minute to break out of your MTL.

TheHatchetman September 5 2009 4:09 PM EDT

It does and doesn't. But lets look at someone like Zenai, where naming is acting as a speed bump. He's gaining 342k effective levels from his naming, but this is costing him over 220k levels in actual item growth. Saying Zenai was to keep plugging away, then in a week from now, his naming expired. His MTL would be 250-300k levels higher than the tattoo he's been using this whole time without leveling.

Basically, once you've passed your MTL twice with a named tat, you are actually left with a tattoo that is, in effect as well as base level, lower than it could have been if only ya didn't name it. Then if/when ya lose the naming you're left even further behind. I've personally broken my own MTL 4 times so far. Woulda been faster all those times without the name. Now that I'm working on it again, I am fortunate enough to have an unnamed tat. There has got to be something wrong when someone is feeling "fortunate" that an item is *not* named ~_^

AdminNightStrike September 5 2009 6:38 PM EDT

Maybe I'm messing up the math here, but it seems to me that you only fall into this zone when you're within 4% of your MTL with your named tattoo. Since the MTL grows a boatload faster than your tattoo, that 4% difference is made up very quickly.

TheHatchetman September 5 2009 8:26 PM EDT

yes, very quickly indeed... But that doesn't change that there is a loss in growth that is *only* affecting named tattoos...

Zenai September 5 2009 9:02 PM EDT

"Maybe I'm messing up the math here, but it seems to me that you only fall into this zone when you're within 4% of your MTL with your named tattoo. Since the MTL grows a boatload faster than your tattoo, that 4% difference is made up very quickly. "


Yes I do get that 4% Bonus but at the Price of 4% Growth for the Duration of the naming NS.....kinda not cool considering I paid for something and should be able to keep it. If I up my Weapon or Armor when I lose that Naming I still have that Stat upgrade from Naturally upgrading it.

When I lose the Naming from my Tat I Lose the 4% Boost and the 4% Possible Natural Upgrade that I should have had from the beginning. In essence I believe what Hatch is saying is that even in getting the boost and the MTL is upgraded faster (Naturally) the Tat doesn't benefit from the potential Growth of the Higher MTL. You have to wait for the 4% then it starts to grow and when it goes away you have to work up the 4% just to get back to that level again.

Now admitted this in my eyes is 1/2 right, you get the boost and it goes away you can only get it again with another naming. The fact that it stunts 4% growth in the process kinda makes it irrelevant to start. Just my opinion since no other Weapon or Armor piece gets this same treatment. I would say take the 4% stunting effect off or add the same thing to all other weapons and armor namings.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 5 2009 9:10 PM EDT

things that discourage donation are kinda counter-productive

RaptorX September 5 2009 9:56 PM EDT

So when you name a Tat it would be nice if it boosted the your Tat MTL 4% - 6% or so AND raised the Tat level 4% also. But then if you already have a named Tat this still doesn't help, so ... . What would fix this? maybe Boosting all already named tats 2.44 - 4% (if the calculations earlier are correct, then make this MTL boost in effect from now on. OK would that be what is suggested? If so Now we only need Jon to sign on to this idea.. No problem right? :) lol

TheHatchetman September 6 2009 12:42 AM EDT

nah, actually what i was suggesting was having the un-bonused level of the tattoo being counted towards MTL in terms of growth. You should start raising a lvl 7,000,000 tat at 7,000,001 MTL, regardless of whether or not it is named.

Zenai September 6 2009 12:59 AM EDT

Exactly the point, Naming should be for Tattoos a boost like all other things. As it stands now this is not quite so, for the 4% boost you lose the immediate 4% Growth, when you lose the bonus you have an extra 4% to make up.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 11 2009 6:57 AM EDT

the game does seem to be about ncb's and disposable characters. this affects every ncb run and i would cancel the naming on my tat on each of my ncb runs if it was an option, or transferred it to another item.

the permanent fix would be not to count the naming bonus against growth though.

QBRanger September 11 2009 10:03 AM EDT

+1

AdminNightStrike September 11 2009 12:46 PM EDT

Ok, so I'm looking at this thread again because of your recent thread, Hatch.

Can you show me how this caused you to lose 4m levels? And for Zenai to lose 2.5m levels? I'm really not understanding the math here.

Everyone realizes that named tattoos don't grow faster than unnamed ones, right?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 11 2009 12:59 PM EDT

i don't really understand the numbers quoted either, but you are asking for people to support the game and donate money to get items named. it should only be a beneficial setup and any lost growth is unacceptable in my humble opinion.

QBRanger September 11 2009 1:03 PM EDT

I hope the numbers used were NW and not levels.

As in NW lost due to a loss in tattoo growth.

Brakke Bres [Ow man] September 11 2009 1:22 PM EDT

basically when Hatchy's tattoo hit the MTL, the tattoo was named and he had to wait until the MTL grew another 4%.

The wait between MTL and MTL +4% lost him 4mil in NW in growth.

Is that about right?

If so you're complaining about the "lost" growth rate that 4% had to offer? Come again?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 11 2009 1:28 PM EDT

yep, and during ncb's that four percent penalty at 400 percent growth is a pretty solid negative to people donating to the game. ; )

Brakke Bres [Ow man] September 11 2009 1:31 PM EDT

Unnamed tattoo would have started growing faster and thus led to higher end level.
Conclusion: Don't use a named tattoo in the NUB or NCB.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 11 2009 1:33 PM EDT

to put it another way. you pay your money to get that bonus. if you ever do an ncb run, then the bonus is pretty much gone as you then worked past when your tat should start growing again for the same amount as the bonus.

the naming bonus on tats should make the tat have the higher effect with the bonus but for everything else it should still function at the actual level. the actual level is still stored in the game under the item stats, it shouldn't be that difficult to make it function correctly.

QBRanger September 11 2009 1:40 PM EDT

I think most of us agree with Dude.

Naming should only be a postive thing. We want to encourage namings.

It does not increase PR.

It does not add NW.

It does not effect score.

So in all of CB, why does it have a negative effect when growing a tattoo via a character with respect to MTL?

I would ask NS or Jon to just fix it so we all can just move on.

Zenai September 11 2009 1:54 PM EDT

I think he is talking about NW, However I in this lost close to 350K levels of immediate tattoo growth. I will post exact numbers later but in a nutshell: 8.56 Mil didnt level until 8.903 mil

AdminNightStrike September 11 2009 4:06 PM EDT

Ok, first we need to shatter a few things that are group-thinking their way to facthood. Then we can get down to the actual numbers to see if the issue is a blip on the radar, or if the ROI for the time spent on dealing with it is worthwhile.

First, I brushed the issue off because it seems much more psychological than practical. In other words, people think they are losing out on a lot, when in reality, it's a very paltry amount of tattoo growth.

Second, this doesn't have any different impact if it's a bonus character or not. Please understand this before you keep spreading such falsehood. I'm sure some of you don't understand, so just try to think through the math for a bit.

If you have an MTL at 970 and a tattoo at 961, you will not gain levels on that tattoo until your MTL increases past 1,000. The amount of experience it takes to boost your MTL to 1,000 from 970 is fixed. This will not change whether you have a bonus or not. So, a character without a bonus is affected in just the same way.

Now, if you think that you are missing out because you want to apply the bonus based XP to your tattoo, and you can't, it still doesn't change the amount you could gain compared to a character without the bonus. The XP required to boost your MTL is unaffected by bonuses, and MTL will ALWAYS grow faster than your tattoo. ALWAYS.

So if you have a bonus or if you don't, it will still require the same amount of XP to push your tattoo to a certain level, and likewise your MTL.



Third, this really isn't a giant loss. You only hit this area when you are within 4% of your MTL. So that is when your tattoo drops to between 99% and 96% of your MTL. You will never, ever, catch up to your MTL, so this only happens when you are using a tattoo that is already over your MTL. The largest amount that you will ever lose is basically whatever your current tattoo is that is above your MTL multiplied by 0.04.

In the case of a ten million level tattoo, this is 400k levels.


Now, if someone can show me -- without all of the typical nonsense that makes me just ignore threads -- that this is a more serious issue, then I will look into it further.

{Wookie}-Jir.Vr- September 11 2009 4:27 PM EDT

Well to be fair... 400k isn't really a "small amount" I mean in the grand scheme of things sure, but 400k is 400k...

If it's so nominal, feel free to add it to my tattoo at any time =).

but meh, this can be avoided by not preemptively naming your tattoo.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 11 2009 4:38 PM EDT

Anything that discourages donations to the game is a serious issue.

QBRanger September 11 2009 4:50 PM EDT

Most of your points are very true NS,

However if your tattoo is 8M, that is 320k levels your losing out due to this feature.

Not an incredible amount, but not insignificant.

Over 2 or 3 NCB runs, with their accelerated growth, that can add up to 1M levels.

And as novice stated, anything that discourages donations is bad.

QBsutekh137 September 11 2009 4:56 PM EDT

An alternate route would be, for tattoo namings, to warn the user if their active character's MTL is within a factor of 1.04 of the level of tattoo they are trying to name.

If this discourages namings on tattoos here and there, then the creators/maintainers of the game should be fine with that (since one of the maintainers has already deemed the losses as "paltry" and "not giant".) As long as the viewpoint is consistent, there is no issue. The only inconsistency that could arise would be if the maintainers do nothing and then wonder why tattoo naming gets an ominous rap in place like chat, mentoring, etc.

But in any case, the issue should be clear to someone when naming a tattoo so they know what they are getting for their money (or not getting). That's called good business, and folks who want to do honest business really, really appreciate it. Because if it isn't good business, it's dishonest business. And that stinks.

So, if it is too hard to fix, then put a warning (or flat-out forbid) on the naming page and then let the chips fall where they may.

AdminNightStrike September 12 2009 3:45 PM EDT

MTL is now 4% higher if your tattoo is named.

QBRanger September 12 2009 3:47 PM EDT

THANKS!!!!!

Zenai September 12 2009 3:49 PM EDT

Wow Thanks indeed!!!

QBRanger September 12 2009 3:49 PM EDT

However, I do not see any change in my MTL if I have my tattoo on or off.

My tattoo is named.

AdminNightStrike September 12 2009 4:06 PM EDT

try again

QBRanger September 12 2009 4:07 PM EDT

Well done sir!

{Wookie}-Jir.Vr- September 12 2009 4:13 PM EDT

Nice change! I like it!

Zenai September 12 2009 4:28 PM EDT

um not to complain but I think I am in the same boat as Ranger was....I was at 8.68 Mil I trained and am @ 8.70mil no 4% upgrade there :-/

Zenai September 12 2009 4:30 PM EDT

ahh Reloaded it's showing now :-)

kevlar September 12 2009 4:30 PM EDT

It registered for me, simplistic change, nice job, NS

kevlar September 12 2009 4:31 PM EDT

and your line "group-thinking their way to facthood." is one of my favorite lines I've ever read in the forums yet ;)

Zenai September 12 2009 4:35 PM EDT

Max tattoo : 9,053,625 with 1.6 Mil training and the 4% upgrade
Max tattoo : 9,470,719

Awesomeness!
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