MPR's growing too fast (in Debates)


Brakke Bres [Ow man] September 8 2009 8:29 AM EDT

MPR's at the top are growing too fast.

Pro's: spreads out the playing field
Con's: Hard to get to the top

Consequences: N*B gets another readjustment, NCB BA prices rise again. NCB gets less affordable, NUB's dominate the "subtop"

Is it in the best interest for CB to let the MPR grow as they do or should they be slowed down somehow?
(possibly introducing 5/20 regen rate)

Sickone September 8 2009 8:50 AM EDT

MPR grows at the rate it always has... if you look at most persistant player's MPR graph, it approaces a straight line... slowing it down (i.e. decreasing the slope of the graph for all people equally) would serve no good purpose whatsoever.

No, it doesn't really spread the field more than a slower MPR growth would, since everybody else grows at a comparable rate too... and no, it's not harder nor easier to get to the top, the N*B is designed to get you "there" (or close to) in a fixed timespan anyway.
NCB BA prices always increase, since they're linked to the bonus value, and that constantly increases too (but if you flatten the MPR growth, it would have to grow a lot to compensate if the target %MPR is to remain the same, so yeah, BA cost would spike, but then it will keep increasing as it always has)... so no, it doesn't really get less affordable, it's already pretty damn pointless to try to buy any BA (and will get more and more so as time goes by).
Introducing a new regen rate would serve no purpose whatsoever. Going into a higher regen rate DOESN'T affect MPR growth at all directly, it only indirectly affects it by *increasing* the slope, since you're less likely to miss BA due to hitting the 160 accrual cap while you're not around.

So no, it's not in the best interest of CB to let the MPR grow slower.
But then again, neither would letting it grow faster.
It simply doesn't matter either way.
It would only at most hasten or delay the inevitable, since relative positions would never change due to this, and this alone.
In other words, the debate was pointless even before it started.

Daz September 8 2009 8:59 AM EDT

Or maybe you could just eliminate the lack of penalty for the top.

QBRanger September 8 2009 9:29 AM EDT

Mr. Obama:

What data do you have to support this theory?

The N*B is a ever changing number based upon the top MPR. So it should not be any harder for N*B character to get to 95% of the top if they buy/use all their BA.

Admin{CB1}Slayer333 September 8 2009 9:33 AM EDT

Actually, eventually the N*B percentage will get so high that missing a few BA a day will put you miles behind - which is why I would prefer the N*B get longer over time, rather than higher.

AdminShade September 8 2009 9:35 AM EDT

Henk: do you mean the top grows too fast with regards to your own character?

MPR of the top people has not been growing faster in the past half year or so, why come with it now?

AdminShade September 8 2009 9:36 AM EDT

And besides that, I highly think that introducing 5/20 does not slow them down at all, it would only make things easier because the amount of $ / fight goes up and the total amount of BA you miss due to sleep etc. goes down.

QBRanger September 8 2009 9:43 AM EDT

There is some degree of increased growth at the very top as the rewards are a bit higher with the higher scores one fights. That is a fact confirmed by Jon.

However, those at the top have no positive challenge bonus. While those lower in the 6 BA range possibly get a decent CB.

But as Daz states, perhaps removing the 6 BA exemption would even the playing field.

I know there was a longish thread about this exact subject, but perhaps it should be revisited by the developers to help even out the playing field.

There are both pluses and minuses to doing this and it would be interesting to see what Jon/NS think.

Brakke Bres [Ow man] September 8 2009 5:12 PM EDT

Ranger:

Well NCB BA cost will also be increased by that percentage, thus higher costs if MPR grows and that percentage needs to be adjusted if you want to hit 95% and I'm not talking about the NUB since those get free BA and only profit from an increased bonus, since that applies to both money and EXP

Sickone:
MPR growth rate without N*B is not a straight line. This line is dictated by the number of natural BA you can burn, how much BA you can afford and what your challenge bonus is. So in all fairness lower MPR should be growing faster since they have a bigger CB. But since the base rewards are much lower, a bigger CB doesn't compensate the difference. NCB BA costs will only rise while the money reward has been decreased. So it would only be for those who saved a lot of cash, USD spenders or those who have forged for one year. Not saying its bad but seeing there is so much complaining about BA cost already this will only increase. Also introducing a new regen rate was never my intention, but I was wondering how the community felt about the ever higher MPR's.

Slayer:
My point exactly, what is left are the USD spenders and the NUB's

Shade: No, I did try to get into the 6/20 but I realize now that will be impossible to do. Why come with it now? Well, as some of you know, I've been with the game for 4 years now and i've seen the steady rise in MPR. It's all a good thing. New players get a very nice chance to get to the top. But the steady rise means a steady rise in NCB costs. I'm very much afraid that the subtop (10-20) will be dominated by the NUB or USD spenders.

Ranger's second post:
Removing the exemption rule is not done. It is the reward you get when you hit 6/20.

Lets play a hypothetical scenario here:
Its 1 year later, the highest mpr currently is 7 mil the bonus is increased to 600%.
One day advertising pays of, the game receives 500 new players each week. They all get that nice 600% bonus. Of those 500 players 20% sticks around (We all know CB is not everyones cup of tea), lets say of that 20% (100) some 35% goes all the way with the NUB, meaning they stick around for 6 months.

Now lets take that lovely NCB, it also gets that 600% to EXP, yay you say, but realize that 600% is added to the BA cost.

Then the NCB would be so stupidly expensive no singe mortal can pay for it. Couple that with minion costs.

My point: by that time the N*B has to be (1) reworked or (2) MPR growth rate slowed down.
And since most of you don't want number 2

DISCLAIMER:
these percentages are made up, its a hypothetical (doomsday) scenario

Brakke Bres [Ow man] September 8 2009 5:18 PM EDT

Ow forgot to add to the hypothetical scenario:

What if we have an oddball NUB, probably around the .1%, that spends USD?

Sickone September 8 2009 5:47 PM EDT

"MPR growth rate without N*B is not a straight line."

Actually, if you keep fighting opponents of proportional score/PR compared to your own PR (as you grow), and if you keep burning BA at a constant rate (as in, percentage of total available), then the MPR growth graph is an almost perfect line.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 8 2009 5:49 PM EDT

"Shade: No, I did try to get into the 6/20 but I realize now that will be impossible to do."

why is it impossible?

Sickone September 8 2009 5:52 PM EDT

"No, I did try to get into the 6/20 but I realize now that will be impossible to do."

Yeah, whay dudemus just said - what makes you say it's impossible ?
Heck, I *am* slowly getting into 6/20 myself, and I haven't had the best NCB run myself (hardly bought any BA at all, missed a couple of days, started as mage, retrained as lowbie archer, slowly built up archer NW, retrained a couple of times later too, etc).
If I would be to start a NCB right now, I am certain not only to make it to 6/20, but even reasonably safe into 6/20 so that even some weeks of absence would not be too risky to manage.

Sickone September 8 2009 5:58 PM EDT

To clarify : this character is quite old, stopped being a NCB quite a long while ago (ended up somewhere in mid-7/20 back then) and the reason I am catching up (faster) to 6/20 is that I stopped working (much) on gear NW, joined a reasonably competitive clan and almost always purchase my BA.

Brakke Bres [Ow man] September 8 2009 6:00 PM EDT

I should rephrase that sentence, it is impossible for me to do.

If you look at my MPR you would think 6/20 is not that far away, but as I don't have the time, it will be impossible for me to do. When my character was around 2.85mil mpr the 6/20 border was around 3mil mpr, it is now at 3.13mil mpr and I'm 3.116mil mpr.

Its like looking at the finish line as a marathon runner, you ran 40 miles but the damn finish line is moving away from you and its moving away faster then you can run!

But that is beside the point, the point is, if you looked at my hypothetical scenario, that the N*B system will be obsolete when mpr's are soaring and the number of people playing this game will rise dramatically.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 8 2009 6:04 PM EDT

i would hazard a guess that if you truly cannot make it into the 6/20 zone with an ncb run and even if you were given a team at 95% top mpr, you wouldn't be able to stay up there either. you are either not fighting all of your natural ba, not fighting smart, using a bad strategy or some combination of those factors.

it can even be difficult to hold at the top if you are doing things right.

Sickone September 8 2009 6:07 PM EDT

Brakke Bres [Ow man] September 8 2009 6:15 PM EDT

in response a chatmail I've sent to sickone:

Even if you grow faster then Mikel does, it will take so long that saving up cash your buying BA with and do another NCB run will be faster and more tempting then trying to get that old character in the 6/20 zone. In the end it will be so frustrating, for me anyways, to see that constantly shifting border.

AdminShade September 8 2009 6:23 PM EDT

"...but as I don't have the time, it will be impossible for me to do."



So in other words, the top MPRs are not growing too fast but they are growing too fast for you. Time spending on CB will always be of value. I haven't spent a single USD either but still I'm in 6/20 and will stay there for very long.

Brakke Bres [Ow man] September 8 2009 6:47 PM EDT

Since I can't edit posts:
Another piece of text I sent as chatmail to Sickone:

Even if you grow faster then Mikel does, it will take so long that saving up the cash you're currently buying BA with and do another NCB run will be faster and more tempting then trying to get that old character in the 6/20 zone. In the end it will be so frustrating, for me anyways, to see that constantly shifting border. And knowing if you spent that time and cash on an ncb you would have overtaken your old character in the same amount of time.


Now while I was typing this I realized. Looking at the current history graphs I reckoned that Shade's character will be kicked out of 6/20 in 10-12 months. This is because his growth rate isn't higher as Mikel's.

Shade now has a 50mil debt(a well documented fact), it will take him about 10 months to repay this debt, 5mil a month roughly and since he doesn't use USD.

His character will be kicked out of the 6/20 by the time his debt is repaid.

Rework the N*B system?

QBRanger September 8 2009 8:02 PM EDT

How will his character be kicked out of the 6 zone?

He only needs to grow 60% that of Mikel to stay there.

QBRanger September 8 2009 8:32 PM EDT

IE.

Mikel right now is 5.23M MPR

Shade is 3.64M MPR

So Shade now is 69.6% of Mikel's MPR.

If in the next 12 months let us say Mikel gains 2M MPR and let's say Shade only gains 1.5M MPR we have:

Mikel at 7.23M and Shade at 5.14M, which is now 71.1%.

So while Mikel gained 500k more MPR in that time, Shade actually gained a slight % of his MPR.

So how again does the system kick Shade out of the 6 BA regeneration zone by the time he repays his debt?

Sickone September 9 2009 6:48 AM EDT

It's simple :
* if you constantly gain less than 60% of the top character's MPR on average, you will eventually get out of 6/20 even if you're in it already
* if you constantly gain more than 60% of the top character's MPR on average, you will get into 6/20 eventually if you keep at it

The picture I had posted above was exactly that - the 6/20 limit (oh, and the fact you WERE in 6/20 but dropped out of it), and MPR growth trends for you and for me, based on just last month's progress (with me getting closer to 6/20 and you getting farther and farther away from it).
By my estimates, I should get into 6/20 in about 5 months (give or take), a month or so after I pass your MPR.
You have gave up on around 10% growth since you're not part of any half-decent clan, then an additional 5% when not fighting clan characters, and up to another (at least) 25% (or more) because you're not purchasing any BA and missing god knows how many.

Yes, I could probably get to the same point in about the same time if I started a NCB, and then I would still have 1 month of rapid growth left over, and I would have a larger tattoo at the end and so on and so forth... but I would have to pay more attention than I already do, as running a NCB is significantly more time-consuming (at least in the early stages) than a regular character. And I'm not just talking the lower BA regeneration rates at the start, but also the insanely rabid target-searching which is needed to maintain a decent growth (more or less) early on.

Sickone September 9 2009 7:15 AM EDT

To clarify : I'm not saying I agree with the N*B system as it it, I certainly don't.
I would very much like to see it replaced with something else, preferably a rolling bonus.
Or, the very least, get "no penalty" clause out of the top 6/20 charter to make them grow slightly slower compared to the rest.

But trying to say the N*B system is wrong while using flawed logic to make that argument doesn't help the case : no, people aren't getting kicked out of 6/20 if they put in equal effort compared to the top MPR character.
They're actually getting into 6/20 even with 61% of the top MPR's effort.
And not purchasing any BA only means about 20-25% less growth (buying all BA means at least 33% more XP, which translates into around 25% more MPR, so if you do the reverse 1/1.25 you get 80%, so a 20% lesser growth without purchasing BA), and there's still enough to go down to 40% less growth, even without buying BA.

Ancient Anubis September 9 2009 7:45 AM EDT

can i just say personally i wish it would speed up i want my exp now, now, now hehehehe....

QBRanger September 9 2009 9:38 AM EDT

If you want to chat about current problems, let us chat about the drop system which makes money management much harder.

Get rid of this system and let us be better able to pay off our debts and upgrade our items.
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