Weapons (in General)


AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 23 2009 5:41 PM EDT

I wrote a long (wall of text!) post about my feeling towards MPR, NW, PR, Tanks and MPR based characte types.

Then decided I could sum it up in a very much smaller, and less rambling post.

Weapons skew the minion type balance of CB.

To be balanced, they would have to cost just the right amount on needed upgrades, just to stay level in performance to the MPR types of characters.

Too cheap, and you swing balance too far in weapons favour. Too expensive, and you cripple weapon users.

And they would *have* to require continual 'x' upgrades.

The more I think about this, the more of a problem transfering existing large weapons to new characters is. And why in this culture of disposable teams, we might see a Tank heavy imbalance in the game.

As a MPR type 'levels up' you spend your gained MPR. And it's all new to that character. You can't take old MPR with you.

As a NW type 'levels up' you should be spending your newly gained NW in conjunction with your MPR, as per the balanced design.

But using an existing weapon (even penalised by ENC) removes this portion of balance from the equation.

You don't have to spend your newly gained NW. You have already jumped the curve. You don't need to continually upgrade your weapon to kep on par with MPR types. As you should have to.

I realise now it's actually not NW, NW-PR linking, Free 'x' PR, or even the availability of spending options that skews the balance of CB for me.

It's two things. The culture of disposable characters coupled with the inability for MPR types to bring their MPR with them, while the balance design of weapons (that you need to constantly upgrade them as the drawback to being able ot upgrade them) can be totally negated by transfering your old weapons to a new character.

This by default gives Tank types a much better leveling experience, allowing them to (generally) fight higher (like having a Tattoo above your MTL rather than growing one with you, but while that's a flaw, everyone can abuse that equally), and grow faster.

Transferable Weapons skew the minion type balance of CB.

FailBoat[SG] September 23 2009 5:46 PM EDT

Really... You want to see how high my Enc goes, thus killing my XP, if I throw the biggest tank weapon in the game on it?

Go sit in the corner with your mage gear and quit trying to kill what few tanks are left in this game.

three4thsforsaken September 23 2009 6:00 PM EDT

Silva, no one is asking you to put on the biggest weapon in the game. It's pointless and doesn't prove anything.

Demigod September 23 2009 6:12 PM EDT

The part of it that's a product of disposable characters in my only concern. Anyone who's played a previous N*B and wants to run through the ranks with their hard-earned leveled-up gear should do so.

And for USD to enhance their weapons faster... well, they're more invested in the game than I am as a non-spender, and that dedication earns them the right to an edge.

But as far as the issue of disposable characters is concerned, either make them worth something (rolling bonus!) or let the tattoos, weapons, and gear be worth a ton to make up for it. Even though gear is not nearly as important as weapons...

FailBoat[SG] September 23 2009 6:23 PM EDT

3/4ths:

"t's two things. The culture of disposable characters coupled with the inability for MPR types to bring their MPR with them, while the balance design of weapons (that you need to constantly upgrade them as the drawback to being able ot upgrade them) can be totally negated by transfering your old weapons to a new character.

This by default gives Tank types a much better leveling experience, allowing them to (generally) fight higher (like having a Tattoo above your MTL rather than growing one with you, but while that's a flaw, everyone can abuse that equally), and grow faster.

Transferable Weapons skew the minion type balance of CB. "

Specifically, as I'm reading it, what he is stating is that tanks have it easier because they can take their old weapons and just place them on their new characters and grow into them, regardless of the Enc negative. Now, if I'm reading that wrong, thats fine. But from the way this little rant reads, I'm not.

Admin{CB1}Slayer333 September 23 2009 6:29 PM EDT

Disposable characters: my least favorite part of CB2.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 23 2009 6:32 PM EDT

You're reading it wrong. ;)

ENC is a penalty, for sure. One that *everyone* feels. You can't start a NCB and use your AoI right off the bat for that killer 4 minion strat you want to run.

ENC effects everyone. The trade off for weapons, is that ENC grows larger for Weapon using minions than for the non weapon using minions.

Tht's catered for.

It's the overall design of weapons that broken by allowing you to transfer them.

I didn't want a wall of text (even though my OP was reaching to it), but i'll try to go into a little more detail.

MPR and NW make your PR. And balance should be achived around PRs. equivalent PRs sohuld equate to equivalent balance (strategy aside). This means that smaller teams with large nw can fight up, and gives equal reasont o grow both MPR and NW on your team.

Which is all good.

Weapons need the free PR, and are kinda screwy for balance anyway.

To be balanced, Weapon using minions are designed to aguement this MPR with NW, to keep them level with pure MPR character types. The only way to balance this is for the NW invstment to have to contiunally grow alongside the MPR investment.

If t costs too much, it cripples Weapon users. If it's too cheap, it gives them soo much power.

I'm trusting here that the current design is good. That the cost and expenditure of NW for weapons is where the Devs want it.

What this means, is that as you level your Weapon user, you must also continually level your weapon.

And if we never ditched our characters, this wouldn't ever be an issue. As your wepaon would continue to grow alongisde your character, like your tattoo. You can decrease the rate it grows, by not spending on it, or giving your cash away, or you can increae it beyond the curve by winning cash, or buying it.

Whatever. Your weapon still have to grow wiht your character.

The problem comes from the current 'disposable' chaacter design.

Everyone, everyone, can take Tattoo and Armour NW with them. Limited by ENC.

Only Tanks, can tae Weapon based NW with them, which removes the new character growth design of having to grow your wepaon alonside your MPR, while the Mages types can only gorw thier MPR at the fixed rate.

This is the imbalance.

Nehemiah September 23 2009 6:37 PM EDT

a solution might be to add new mage weapons that increase damage of spells equal to the effect of melee weapons. so they would also increase spell damage as you upgraded them. would require a equal amount of cash compared to melee weapons.

just an idea.

God Bless you!

Jesus Loves you!

Zenai September 23 2009 6:38 PM EDT

GL not being able to transfer and item will kill CB economically thus leading to a dead community. I issue a Big Fat "NO!" to this.

If you by chance meant that Items were to be "Locked" on the Char they were grown on, well that is kinda the same thing to be honest. Some ppl just do not want the entire package. Bottomline you take options away from the Community/Player Base well you will see a lack thereof once again Big Fat "NO!"

Besides honestly Tanks need everything they can get, Mage Setups just do not cost as much. Tanks have to spend 3-4 Times as much as Mages do just to be competitive.

Lord Bob September 23 2009 6:39 PM EDT

"Disposable characters: my least favorite part of CB2."

Yep.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 23 2009 6:56 PM EDT

Zenai, then get rid of the disposable character philosophy, and this beomes a non issue.

It's either that, or don't trade Weapons (but you can trade Tattoos and armour).

Or only allow trade of base weapons to a NCB. Want to start again, at least you'l be able to disenchant and still beat the curve somewhat.

But at least you'll have to follow the design of building your weapon as you level.

Or make some way of non weapon users being able to transfer old MPR to a new NCB.

But preferably, get rid of dispoable characters, and base balance around the design of not throwing your team away every 6 momths.

FailBoat[SG] September 23 2009 7:02 PM EDT

Saying that tanks can't trade weapons is rediciously stupid. The only way for a tank to be able to do damage is based upon those weapons. And if you used a previous team to grow your weapon, how is that any different from an enchanter or mage using a previous team to grow their tattoo or familiar? What you're asking for is a nerf to tanks, inadvertantly, by demanding that you only be allowed to use the weapon you start with on a new team and not use any other.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 23 2009 7:09 PM EDT

Becuase *everyone* regardless of minion type can transfer and use Tattoo's and Armour.

It's 'gaming' the system, but everyone can do it equally.

For balance, just like mages have to start training FB back from base, Tanks *should* be starting over with a base (or store sized) weapon.

Anything else is an unfair advantage.

Hell, you could still 'game' the system by disenchanting your wepaon, then bumping a base one back up again.

It's the design here for how weapons are balanced around NW that's at odds with restarting characters.

Demigod September 23 2009 7:11 PM EDT

Nehemiah,

Jon is very much against the idea of mages using weapons (staffs), though that idea has been brought up before.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 23 2009 7:11 PM EDT

Or add in a Max Weapon Level, like we have for Tattoos.

ENC isn't the specific foil here it needs ot be, becuase it's in place to limit all NW.

FailBoat[SG] September 23 2009 7:17 PM EDT

I invest 80mil into a weapon, the Disenchanter gives me back what? 50%? 70? That still isn't nearly as much as I dumped into that weapon. Add in the fact that I also have to save up money for buying BA, upgrading the -rest- of my gear to keep my damage from floundering and failing, and then throwing in the fact that -all- teams make 20% less cash and you still are trying to flail around this idea that tanks reusing weapons is "overpowered" and "breaking the system"?

Tyriel [123456789] September 23 2009 7:17 PM EDT

Did somebody say Weapon Allowance?

Tyriel [123456789] September 23 2009 7:22 PM EDT

Also, I don't think that having a huge weapon is a benefit in most cases. The huge PR from the +, the gear, the tattoo... = reduced rewards, especially when you get to the point where it's near-impossible to get 100% CB.

I'm actually surprised at how much people will inflate their PR with weapons. I could (at one point, at least, I don't pay attention to anybody else anymore) point out various people with lower MPR, higher PR, and the same or lower score than me. Their weapons end up hurting them more than if they were to just change to a different strategy.

There is a tiny bit of a problem with something like a x999999 weapon with no PTH, and gaining all your PTH from a ToA, or heck even only using Dexterity to hit, but that's an entirely different story.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 23 2009 7:23 PM EDT

Yes Silva.

Everyone has to save up for BA and upgrade Armour.

Everyone can take all that over with them, regardless of what type of minion they plan to run.

Only Tanks can take over all the saved NW in a weapon, and *ignore the in built design of having to level your weapon with your stats, that keeps you balanced with MPR users*.

Unless you want to posit that there isn't an in built deign balance of weapons having to be continually upgraded to keep paces with MPR types?

That for example a Tank should be able to sit on a x2000 weapon (pick any number you wish), and be able to keep up with the damage a Mage is putting out from Training a DD, just by Training STR.

If so, I'll ask what that fixed 'x' is that the game is balanced around. Then i'll ask for all weapons over that 'x' to vastly increase PR, and all weapons under it to decrease PR.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 23 2009 7:24 PM EDT

"There is a tiny bit of a problem with something like a x999999 weapon with no PTH, and gaining all your PTH from a ToA, or heck even only using Dexterity to hit, but that's an entirely different story."

Actually, it's exactly this story. ;)

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 23 2009 7:25 PM EDT

in any pvp game, the more choices you have increases balance issues. the only way to have true balance is to have no choice other than superficial or cosmetic.

imagine this scenario:

jon gets tired of all of the balance threads and chooses to end them once and for all by giving mages focus items (staves, orbs, wands, etc.)and changing dex and strength to focus and power. all weapons, including the new mage focus ones, are changed to have the same base damage and base to hit. you can still increase the x damage mod and the + to hit as now but the costs will be the same on all items.

all items that use to increase str or dex now increase the new focus and power stats. all dd spells are now gone and the type of spell is determined by your focus item. there are no ranged or melee rounds and you can no longer equip both a melee and ranged weapon on one minion, you must choose one.

all of the skills are changed to work with any of the new system. magic can now hit multiple times exactly the same as melee. the system is now perfectly balanced and while we have many choices in what we equip, they all do exactly the same thing and therefore all of the choices are only superficial ones and make no difference other than what equipment we have.

i think the question we all need to ask ourselves is:

is game balance more important than having real choices?

iBananco [Blue Army] September 23 2009 7:25 PM EDT

There's a large flaw in your argument. You claim that tanks gain an advantage because they're transferrable between characters. The premise of your argument is that 1. Tanks can transfer weapons between characters, therefore 2. allowing more NW than should be available at a given MPR. In order for this to provide a permanent advantage, one would have to run NCBs indefinitely -- otherwise, your NW:MPR inevitably equalizes back to the norm. However, the mere act of starting a new NCB requires either a massive cash investment for BA purchase, or you're likely to end up behind the character you abandoned. Arguing that USD alleviates the BA cost is invalid too, because that USD could simply be used to upgrade the weapon. Of course, you can simply run BA-less tanks and amass NW, but then you'll be stuck with a char a fraction the size of what yours would have been. In addition, you claim that tanks have a "better leveling experience." I can tell you that tank NCBs make for absolute nightmares, unless, ironically, you plan to blacksmith a weapon as you go. When the weapon doesn't fit in your enc, it's nothing more than a paperweight, and once it does, you have to upgrade it at a ridiculous rate just to keep up.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 23 2009 7:27 PM EDT

Dei, that expenditure is the same if you want to run either a Tank or Mage based NCB.

It's a general problem with the NCB, and not what this thread is about really.

iBananco [Blue Army] September 23 2009 7:28 PM EDT

"That for example a Tank should be able to sit on a x2000 weapon (pick any number you wish), and be able to keep up with the damage a Mage is putting out from Training a DD, just by Training STR."
Completely false. A tank sitting on a constant x and pumping ST will increase damage ~ MPR^1/2, while the mage will be linearly gaining damage.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 23 2009 7:29 PM EDT

Exactly Die. ;)

The balance of using weapons is based around you constantly upgrading them alongside your STR. ;)

iBananco [Blue Army] September 23 2009 7:29 PM EDT

It's not another point entirely, because the whole premise behind your argument is that one KEEPS running NCBs. There's absolutely no reason for someone with a nicely-sized mage team to run an NCB save a strategy change or boredom.

Tyriel [123456789] September 23 2009 7:29 PM EDT

"Actually, it's exactly this story. ;)"

Oh, is it? I just skimmed your OP, looked too much like a wall of text for me to care to read. :P

Well, then...

Perhaps ENC should be looked at? And PR from weapons, too. I've never liked how much PR you get from PTH and how you get none from the X. I mean, they both make your tank stronger, I don't see why one should boost PR and can be done without, where the one that is cheap and necessary does nothing but make you stronger.

Oh well, not my game, and I doubt anything'll be changed any time soon. =)

{WW]Nayab [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 23 2009 7:34 PM EDT

I fail to see the inequality in this system.
The money Tanks use to upgrade their weapons is the money mages earn but can spend whatever they like on. Both have the same amount of money at the end of it effectively but Mages can use it far more readily. The tanks weapon is just the money he would of had if he hadn't spent the money on it. If we did as you said GL, then the way to make it even afterwards would require Mages to lose some of their hard earned money to keep the money values balanced. That method isn't fair to ANYONE so leave it as it is.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 23 2009 7:35 PM EDT

"Oh, is it? I just skimmed your OP, looked too much like a wall of text for me to care to read. :P"

You should have seen the original. ;)

"Well, then...

Perhaps ENC should be looked at? And PR from weapons, too. I've never liked how much PR you get from PTH and how you get none from the X. I mean, they both make your tank stronger, I don't see why one should boost PR and can be done without, where the one that is cheap and necessary does nothing but make you stronger."

Thing is (and I was stuck on this for a while), Tank *do* need free PR fom weapons.

Think of a Mage with 'x' MPR. A Tank is balanced at 'x' MPR by also having to spend 'y' NW on thier weapon.

Overall, the Mage would be at 'x' PR while the Tank at a larger 'x' + 'y' PR. Which just wouldn't be balanced.

Then when you get into removing the 'y' NW increase to PR, to equalise the Tank to the Mage, you then get the problem of;

What happens if the Tank doesn't have 'y' NW in thier weapon?

Surely if they have less, thier PR should be lower overall? And if they have more, then higher?

Maybe that's the way to balance all this.

But still, if the design is you upgrade as you level, then xfering over a non base weapon to a new character (or rather xfering over a larger than usual weapon) skews this balance.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 23 2009 7:38 PM EDT

Nayab. Then you get into the transity of what you spend cash on here in CB. No spending cash on contests, fines, FS/WTB thread costs, Admin requests, etc.

And no buying extra cash with USD.

What you spend and wat you spend it on isn't the issue. Everone can spend whatever they want on Armour, and it all carries over the same for everyone. Same with Tattoos.

It's only weapons that allow you to 'game' the transfer. And it's more pronoucned the more money you have.

From however you get your in game cash.

three4thsforsaken September 23 2009 7:39 PM EDT

I'm not sure I agree that this is a real problem. Hoarding a huge weapon character to character might encourage disposable characters, but at the same time it promotes a commitment to CB. Alternatively, if we took out weapon Xfers, it'll seriously mess up the CB economy and make USD even more a tank requirement.

I don't think a solution lies in any form of weapon allowance, disallowing use of high end weapons, because the best way to run a tank NCB doesn't involve using your old weapon, that is, until you can use it effectively. A NCB could much easier rent or borrow a smaller weapon and grow with that, or even go mage and retrain until ENC or your weapon allowance fits their weapon. Disenchanting a weapon that you intend to use for the future is overall a dumb idea. Dumb ideas don't prove anything.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 23 2009 7:41 PM EDT

"but at the same time it promotes a commitment to CB."

So would getting rid of disposable teams. ;)

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] September 23 2009 7:42 PM EDT

It isn't gaming the system precisely because that money has to come from somewhere. The other types of teams get just as much money as a tank team. A tank team just puts it into the form of a weapon whereas a mage team may just put it into armor. The total money is equivalent.

iBananco [Blue Army] September 23 2009 7:42 PM EDT

You're still not addressing my point. Any sort of possible advantage would have to be gained by either sacrificing MPR growth or with USD.

iBananco [Blue Army] September 23 2009 7:42 PM EDT

Permanent advantage, rather.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 23 2009 7:44 PM EDT

Actually, I'm starting to like an idea something like this;

Weapon 'x' NW is free for a certain value based on your STR.

If your 'x' NW is lower than this value, your overall PR is reduced. If it's above, it's increased.

What sort of an impact would that make? (Of course ENC would have to be adjusted somewhat).

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] September 23 2009 7:45 PM EDT

And yes Deifeln is right. This only ever works at the lower levels. As soon as you get back up to the regions where most people are at it is no longer an issue at all.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 23 2009 7:47 PM EDT

"It isn't gaming the system precisely because that money has to come from somewhere. The other types of teams get just as much money as a tank team. A tank team just puts it into the form of a weapon whereas a mage team may just put it into armor. The total money is equivalent."

It would be, if we couldn't trade/gain cash from outside our own rewards.

Then I suppose we're also looking at the point where armour stops needing to be upgraded, so after a time you won't regardless of minion type, be spending any more cash on your armour anyway.

But that's a seperate (and age old one!) issue. ;)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 23 2009 7:48 PM EDT

"And yes Deifeln is right. This only ever works at the lower levels. As soon as you get back up to the regions where most people are at it is no longer an issue at all."

Well yeah. ;) It's all about disposable characters and restating.

And the advantage gained from such.

That's why i've been saying get rid of that, encourage players ot stick to thier established team, and this isn't even an issue. ;)

FailBoat[SG] September 23 2009 9:26 PM EDT

GL, if I was forced to stick to my original team, I'd of never continued playing CB. I played for about a week and then didn't touch CB for almost a year. You want me to play a team that was at 100k-ish MPR and never be allowed to switch teams? Thats idiotic, and you know it.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 24 2009 3:15 AM EDT

Eh?
This thread is closed to new posts. However, you are welcome to reference it from a new thread; link this with the html <a href="/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002sra">Weapons</a>