DD networth? (in General)

Brakke Bres [Ow man] October 1 2009 6:38 PM EDT

Lets say we express direct damage as a weapon and most commonly a ranged weapon.

How much net worth would a DD spell have, in this instance Magic Missile the most commonly used DD spell, if its level was 4mil?

Express this as an ELB.

iBananco [Blue Army] October 1 2009 6:43 PM EDT

You're never going to get a straight answer for this. Weapons not only have two degrees of freedom, but also are expensive to test by calibrating NWs. Then you have to deal with the fact that MM fires better in melee than in ranged, as well as the variability of ELB damage vs. different amounts of DX.

QBJohnnywas October 2 2009 4:31 AM EDT

If you were to compare my bow to say SG - I might do nearly 5 million damage per round. SG's damage, is shown in the Wiki as being about 56% of it's level? So you'd need about a 10 mill SG. So, in comparison to my mageseeker you're pricing a 10 mill SG at about $170,000,000.

More fun is to work out that in comparison to an RBF's damage. You'd need a 25 mill lvl tattoo to do that sort of damage.

QBJohnnywas October 2 2009 4:45 AM EDT

If you look at the ELBs though, Ranger's highest damage which I presume is from his bow, not his Hal, is nearly 3 mill per strike. If he was to hit three or four times in a round doing that, then you're looking at a SG of approx 24 mill level to match that. With an approx NW of about 300 mill.

QBJohnnywas October 2 2009 4:49 AM EDT

But to be fair you can't do a direct comparison in reality.

After all there is the fact of DD never missing, so you could say it's PTH and CTH and whatever H are all incredibly high, much higher than any physical damage weapon. So high in fact that you can't price it probably.

Sickone October 2 2009 5:46 AM EDT

Well, let's see... I'm taking myself as reference here...

An Elven Long Bow [6x10355] (+0) - 80.7 mil NW
Largest Blow 1,537,695
Strength: 7,682,743

If we take out the Beleg's Gloves (+13), we are left with 1,537,695 / 1.39 = 1,106,255 damage in ranged.
So... nearly 7.7 mil levels in one stat (on top of some mandatory levels in DX, but let's ignore that for a moment) PLUS 80 mil NW for 1.1 mil damage.
The argument about multiple hits and DX is simple : you an train DX on any mage too (just because you don't want to is no excuse to complain about multiple hits), and the weapon PTH can be countered either via Evasion or Displacement Boots, whichever you prefer more (NW or XP).

So... comparing JUST ST/NW vs DD level... I don't know, but wouldn't a 8 mil MM deal 1 mil damage in ranged already ?
So I guess it's roughly 10 NW per DD level :P

Brakke Bres [Ow man] October 2 2009 5:53 AM EDT

The factor STR makes it hard for a comparison, but I got roughly my answer. Thank you.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] October 2 2009 6:15 AM EDT

Don't forget the Ranged penalties to damage for DD.

The extra hits from PTH should be ignored, and the NW from any + removed from the Bow.

Also, we should ignore all trained DEX and modify the Ranged damage by it's base chance to hit for equal Dex (so for an Elbow thats 100% anyway).

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] October 2 2009 6:18 AM EDT

Sicks example is a great one. But it leaves the question about STR and X. Are they both weighted equally here? Or is there too much STR and not enough X (or the other way around!).

That's the hardest part of equating a Trained DD into a NW equivalent.

We've no idea how much NW a Tank should have spent alongside an equivalent XP expenditure on STR...

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] October 2 2009 6:20 AM EDT

"So... comparing JUST ST/NW vs DD level... I don't know, but wouldn't a 8 mil MM deal 1 mil damage in ranged already ?"

MM does 48% of it's level as damage. So we should see 3.84M damage from an 8 Mil MM.

On average, DD suffers a 52% damage reduction in Ranged. Which would work out to about 1.84M damage a hit.

Sickone October 2 2009 7:36 AM EDT

"But it leaves the question about STR and X. Are they both weighted equally here? Or is there too much STR and not enough X (or the other way around!)."

Well... if you go by the formula, the base is at 20 ST and x1 weapon.
If you want to keep it "even" in terms of ST/x, you'd have to keep adding one x (7798 NW) for every 20 ST (240 XP), which is obviously unfeasable, as a 8 mil ST would call for a x400000 weapon, which would have a 3,119,200,000$ NW.

You could use another bound, for instance, the CB$:XP gain ratio if you assume you don't purchase any BA, so adding at most one x per 1000 ST levels or so if you pump everything into ST, which you shouldn't, so let's say one x per 800-400 ST. In that case, the proper x for a 8 mil ST would be anywhere between x10000 and x20000 in case you almost never purchase any BA and use most of your cash to pump the weapon.
But.. if you do purchase BA, even a x5000 weapon would be more or less appropriate for a 8 mil ST minion.

On the other hand, you could go with the ENC limits, in which case, a typical 8 mil ST minion could easily be argued as having to have up to a x40000 weapon (and nobody in the game has one that large yet).

Yeah... it's tricky :)
And CB$-for-USD plays a HUGE part.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] October 2 2009 7:56 AM EDT

"Well... if you go by the formula, the base is at 20 ST and x1 weapon.
If you want to keep it "even" in terms of ST/x, you'd have to keep adding one x (7798 NW) for every 20 ST (240 XP), which is obviously unfeasable, as a 8 mil ST would call for a x400000 weapon, which would have a 3,119,200,000$ NW."

Hehehehehe. ;)

Maybe we do indeed need to look at it like this, and say most folk have overtrained the STR in relation to the weapon sizes they use. ;)

QBJohnnywas October 2 2009 9:22 AM EDT

With tanks some of the strength is not XP, it's NW, either ToA or TSA/BoM/Tulks/HoE.

50% of my ST is NW. And not very expensive NW either....

QBJohnnywas October 2 2009 9:25 AM EDT

13.5 million to give me an extra 5 mill Strength....

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] October 2 2009 9:26 AM EDT

That's also a different point Johnny! ;)

If we're comparing STR and X to DD, then we need to compare Base STR without BoM, TG, TSA, etc to a base DD without AG, CoI.

Sick, is your 7.6 Mil STR base, or boosted by items?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] October 2 2009 9:26 AM EDT

Edit: Had a look.

Sick, you'll need to take off your AoM, ToA and BoM bonuses to STR to compare it to an equivalent DD.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] October 2 2009 10:02 AM EDT

Which of course then highlights the inequality between DD and Physical damage Johnny alluded to above.

You can get sooo much more percentage boosts to your Physical damage through armour, than you could ever hope to with DD.

How and STR + X be equated to a DD level, when the DD could only get;

AG, BoE, CoI and SB to boost thier damage (Max: 16+5+20+3 = 44% with 2 of those items fixed at 3 and 5%)

While Physical can get;

AoM, HoE, TG, TSA, BoM (Max: 14+20+60+24+31 = 149%)

Taking possible item boost sinto acocunt, shouldn't an equivalent STR + X be less than the damage DD could do. Just becuase of how much it can be boosted?

AdminShade October 2 2009 10:27 AM EDT

What would you accomplish by expressing a DD spell into NW?

DD = Experience
Experience = MPR
MPR = added to PR for combat calculations

PR = added to MPR for combat calculations

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] October 2 2009 10:39 AM EDT

PR = added to MPR for combat calculations"

Not true for X mate. ;)

AdminShade October 2 2009 10:45 AM EDT

Why not?

Exp = MPR

fair enough so far.

NW needs Exp (ST and DX) to be trained to make damage.
DD spell needs Exp to be trained as well.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] October 2 2009 11:07 AM EDT

Weapon X add nothing to PR. So you can spend an unlimited amount of NW, and your PR won't increase.

AdminShade October 2 2009 11:20 AM EDT


AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] October 2 2009 3:42 PM EDT

Yeah. I'm firmly of the opinion that that is borked. ;) A certain amount, sure. And as said in another thread, if you're under that amount you should get a PR reduction.

But to go over a specific amount should no longer be free PR...

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] October 2 2009 4:54 PM EDT

NW-PR is bad.

Here's why... If score wasn't compared to PR, I wouldn't have any problem with it being linked. The penalty to rewards for having additional power is brutal while growing a char, and it prevents people from gaining ground on the top. I see this as a major deterrent to economic progress out of the dark ages we have been in. Items used to be awesome because they only helped your team (assuming you weren't using a heaume). Now not only can a large weapon hinder you, it can also slow your growth over time by preventing a challenge bonus. There are ways of limiting this hobbling effect, but most involve dramatic specialization and smaller fightlists.

Sickone October 3 2009 11:36 AM EDT

It all comes down to "USD is overpowered" in the end, doesn't it ?

Brakke Bres [Ow man] October 3 2009 11:38 AM EDT

No not really, it comes down to the XP to NW debate.

Since NW grows faster then XP.

QBRanger October 3 2009 11:40 AM EDT

It also has to do with how uses NW.

QBRanger October 3 2009 11:41 AM EDT

how one uses NW :)

Sickone October 3 2009 11:50 AM EDT

"Since NW grows faster than XP"

Only if you:
a) are a NUB so you get your BA for free
b) don't purchase any extra BA at all
c) or just buy CB$ with USD
Because otherwise, XP grows much faster than NW.
Ok, granted, you can START at a high NW if you're a NCB, but still, the growth of your NW after that is appalling, yet the XP growth is huge.

Either way, no, NW does not grow faster than XP, not under normal circumstances anyway.

QBRanger October 3 2009 11:52 AM EDT

And that is the problem Sickone.

We have 2 classes of players. With 2 different view on the system.

And with the drop lottery, NW is growing even slower than xp for normal characters.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] October 3 2009 12:45 PM EDT

You can take NW with you.

You can't carry over XP...

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] October 3 2009 1:14 PM EDT

so would a single minion toa with massively pumped x and no + on a melee and a ranged weapon be the best combo for successive ncb runs?

QBJohnnywas October 3 2009 1:36 PM EDT

Based on current chars I'd say Lightning Raider's set up has proven to be better than a single tank. It's close though.

I guess you're looking at specialist strat, with a fairly focused fightlist, or a more straight forward one with the tank.

Godpanda October 3 2009 2:34 PM EDT

How one uses a resource doesn't matter if they have enough of it. I mean, sure, at a certain point. But there are essential NW caps in this game. A point where no amount of money will let you raise an item (Realistically). Once your NW exceeds all your items caps, bam, no more skill involved. Then you get to just channel it straight into your weapon.

How to put this a different way...

If you have one pencil. And have to connect 5,000 dots on a wall, you'd think of a smart way to do it. If you have 500 buckets of paint and a roller, well, you don't have to think so hard anymore, neh?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] October 3 2009 2:48 PM EDT

my question above was more of a what is the best way to bring un-penalized nw along with you on a new ncb run.

Sickone October 3 2009 5:45 PM EDT

"so would a single minion toa with massively pumped x and no + on a melee and a ranged weapon be the best combo for successive ncb runs? "

A series of increasingly x-pumped, no + weapons, actually, because you're still bound by the encumbrance restrictions. So, you'd probably want something like this:

* a near-base named weapon
* a x1000 weapon (naming optional)
* a x4000 weapon (naming not very useful)
* a x10000 weapon (naming pointless)
* a x20000 weapon
* a x35000 weapon


Admindudemus [jabberwocky] October 3 2009 7:45 PM EDT

is the str and dex given by the toa affected by encumbrance?

Sickone October 3 2009 8:03 PM EDT

Sadly, yes, because they are calculated as if they would have been trained ST/DX (boosted by gear, nerfed by enc, etc).

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] October 4 2009 3:55 AM EDT

But because of MTL restricting he size of your Tattoo used, I doubt this would be a problem. ;)

Sickone October 4 2009 8:52 AM EDT

I think he meant it in a "but why care about encumbrance if the ST/DX from the ToA is not affected by it... or is it" way.
At least that's how I understood his question.
I mean, what's the point of a x40000 weapon on a very low MPR character if it puts him at or near total encumbrance, reducing his ST/DX to 1 or even 0, basically guaranteeing it not only almost always misses but also deals next to no damage whenever it does hit.
If the ToA-granted ST/DX would have not been affected by ENC, then it would have been a completely different story, a massive x weapon even backed up by the little ST/DX you get from the ToA could have been overpowered as you grow in MPR.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] October 4 2009 10:22 AM EDT

sickone has the right idea except i have been trying to figure out what the most efficient use of carrying over net worth is for consecutive ncb runs. this would have to be done with multiple weapons though but using a toa would grow your encumbrance that much faster.

a junctioned familiar is an awesome way to bring nw to an ncb that also boosts challenge bonus quite well for the first 2m to 3m mpr. i was just wondering if this might be better for longer.
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