Exbow (in General)

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] October 5 2009 5:45 PM EDT

I think we really need another look at this thing here. Almost all of the upper level tanks have magnificent counters to this particular piece of equipment. Following along with all the people saying that you can just slap a 1 mil str minion with an exbow and take out all the tanks around, I tried incorporating the exbow into my strat. Sadly the 1 mil str exbow taking out tanks is just a myth and nothing more.

In particular I love novice's counter to the exbow. It is incredibly hard to break through. Because his PL wall has a significant amount of str the exbow will continue to his tank but only drain a % of his PL wall's str. Unless you can take out all of the PL walls str in 1 hit the exbow effectively is useless against him.

I have to say the exbow's damage is pathetic. In my opinion the amount of damage it has to deal is to get the drain is in a pretty fair region. Unless you focus in it a good amount it wont do the job. x3500 named with 3.5 mil str barely gets over 100k damage against low AC targets.

Tell me what you think about this weapon.

QBsutekh137 October 5 2009 6:02 PM EDT

You already know what I think of PL, and this would be just another thing that makes a PL wall necessary (no matter how dull). I agree, novice uses his MPR to exquisite brilliance (so definitely not taking anything away from that!).

If you want the exbow to do more, I would not be against that. BUT, flatten the curve. Go ahead and let a tiny amount of damage drain SOME strength, instead of a slightly larger amount taking ALL strength. In other words, make it far less binary than it is, and turn off the PL exemption while you are at it.

I think the exbow is a great, fun tool, and a good foil for tanks and Halidons. It's simply too damn binary, a classic example of raising everything up on a house of cards instead of nerfing what was the problem in the first place (such as what we may have, slightly over-powered Hals). To combat that, the exbow because far too rock/scissors/paper.

Concerning that, I don't understand why people love saying, 'It's rock/scissors/paper! Awesome!" Rock/scissors/paper is binary, or trinary, I guess. Shouldn't things be more nuanced, more tactical? Like, a little bit of rock and a lot of paper can SOMETIMES beat a scissors? Wouldn't that be more fun rather than a tiny rock being able to beat a huge scissors?

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] October 5 2009 6:07 PM EDT

I wasn't saying there is anything wrong with the exbow. It is rather binary especially when together with PL though. Rather I was saying I was surprised at how balanced the exbow actually was at least to me. If you are going to focus into it, then it will work for you. But if you just try to slap it on as extra it isn't going to get you very far at all.

QBRanger October 5 2009 6:09 PM EDT

One hit on my HF takes it to doing no damage.

If you had some decent Dbs, you would wipe the floor with Heroes using such an abusive item.

QBRanger October 5 2009 6:11 PM EDT

Novice's PL wall has 2M strength. One hit to his main tank should take that below 0. So his PL wall saves him like what 1 round?

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] October 5 2009 6:23 PM EDT

He's taking all of ranged to almost drain the PL wall, never touching the tanks str. I haven't had a chance to figure out why, but his minuscule damage compared to 5m HP is likely the cause.

QBRanger October 5 2009 6:27 PM EDT


1 hit vs my tank drains over 2+M strength.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] October 5 2009 6:49 PM EDT

One thing I find kind of funny is that even NS' exbow cannot take out my str after hitting me multiple times.

QBRanger October 5 2009 8:05 PM EDT

Well 18M HP will do that in the current system.

I never did like a damage vs HP determination for drain, but it is what Jon wants.

QBJohnnywas October 6 2009 4:05 AM EDT

What I want to know is how a weapon with +40 even hits my tank, who holds a pretty decent dex gap (at least a mill of dex on top of Nem's tank), never mind my jig, who's currently sitting on around 140 evasion.

Am I missing something here?

Otherwise Nem, nice strat change, glad to see it working!

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] October 6 2009 4:12 AM EDT

This is the main reason I decided to fight with Dex. No matter how much evasion or DB you have, you cannot get ride of that portion of cth that is granted from my dex. I have about a 45% chance of hitting your tank that cant be changed except by changing the dex ratio.

QBJohnnywas October 6 2009 4:15 AM EDT

Mmm. I thought the dex gap would be big enough that I could eat into your chance to hit. Damn.

I've been gotten by the same thing I've been surviving on all this time!!


QBRanger October 12 2009 3:35 PM EDT

Care to reevaluate your initial post on this.

I have a dexterity advantage, +205 Dbs vs your +85 Exbow with Leadership help.

And I get hit almost every battle multiple times with 2 hits draining my strength.

And I have over 14M hp to try to stop this garbage.

I think this weapon is utter crap, garbage, puke, slime, and scum.

That is what I think of it.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] October 12 2009 3:47 PM EDT

"I think this weapon is utter crap, garbage, puke, slime, and scum."

whew, at least you didn't claim it was abusive this time! ; )

QBRanger October 12 2009 3:49 PM EDT

I have always claimed it was abusive and crap.

Where are you claiming I did not call it abusive? From my earlier post about having 18M HP?

Marlfox [Cult of the Valaraukar] October 12 2009 3:50 PM EDT

*cough* Joke! *cough*

Zenai [Ministry of Pain] October 12 2009 4:02 PM EDT

Although his euphemisms are a bit on the tmi side I do have to agree with Ranger on the fact it is more than what you have initially posted.

You hit me one time and all of my Str goes adios! Sounds like the usual stuff right? Ok fair enough now pop your eyes folks I have 16.1 Mil Str! This is backed with 8.4 Mil Dex and 5.1 Mil HP, no offense but with +180 DBs added to it Nem you shouldn't be able to hit me. I have a what 5 Mil Dex advantage on you plus what little my ToA gives me in Evasion. Yet still you hit me and all of that Str goes with the wind....The ExBow was tweaked but not enough it still needs work.

I can understand 1/4 of my Str or even 1/3 but when I get hit and I'm -3Mil I'm just not seeing it as a Underpowered or even a balanced Weapon.

QBRanger October 12 2009 4:10 PM EDT

Ah, I missed the word abusive in my post.

I get it now :)

However, +85 on the exbow, a dex DISadvantage, some other + due to Leadership (which is another thing) and he hits my tank over 50% of the time.

I have 1.5x his dex, and 205 DB and yet he hits numerous times during combat.

At least with my 14M+ HP he does not drain all my strength but about 1/2.

Imagine if his exbow was higher than : Scratch [4x5000] (+85) worth $56,286,675 owned by Nemerizt (Team Rocket)

Wow, 56M and he destroys all tanks in the game. With 3M str and dex.

But seriously, cannot you see the problems with this. And it will be magnified as we grow.

QBRanger October 12 2009 4:28 PM EDT

And with A Bolt of Nether ($91139160), I cannot beat him in infinite number of battles due to 1 hit taking all my tanks strength away.

So much for 14M HP as a defense.

This item is just plain stupid.

Phrede October 12 2009 4:45 PM EDT

I have to agree with Ranger on this one. It needs tweaking somehow. (Notes down to use exbow in his NCB strat)

QBRanger October 12 2009 4:54 PM EDT

Sorry to be so vehement.

But in reality, what is the goal of the exbow? Since the top missile weapons are now over 300M NW, while the exbows are under 100M and can destroy a tank.

Is it to be a foil for archers? If so, when why does 1 hit drain all a tanks strength? And when a huge dex advantage, in some cases 2x dex, and large DBs cannot prevent the 1 hit needed to suck all strength. Especially with Leadership giving a nice PTh boost.

So please, if Jon or NS can reply, what was the exbow doing so well before the latest attempt to balance it?

I think it was doing ok due to the lack of money people put into it. But now, with money cheaper than ever, it is not too hard to get a 70M exbow and defeat all tanks with a modicum of dex and strength. While those with 100s of millions into their weapons can do nothing.

And what about those melee tanks? They have to avoid getting hit for 6 rounds before they can even start to attack. No way that is possible.

I really believe this weapon needs a complete change in the way it works and/or the way it hits. Since nothing in CB is a 1 hit=battle over type occurrence.

Except for attacking a 1 MPR character with a 5M one :)

I would really hate to see everyone not being able to play a tank due to this weapon. Which is almost as things are right now. It is not like fighting a mage, where you have a chance. If you face a 70+M exbow your toast. No chance. vs 100M one even less then 0 chance.

QBJohnnywas October 12 2009 5:01 PM EDT

The exbow has been like this for a long time, or at least the threads concerning it have been about for a long time. Hasn't stopped people running tanks. In fact I think it's never been as tankcentric as it is now. Even the exbow itself needs a tank to use it properly.

QBRanger October 12 2009 5:04 PM EDT

Certainly JW,

However the tank needed to properly use one can be much smaller than those it attacks.

Tough to compete when you cannot even get past the first round of combat. At least now with any strength on your tank.

And why does the RBF have evasion again and the ToA does not?

Brakke Bres [Ow man] October 12 2009 5:05 PM EDT

ToA has dex, much more useful then the Evasion the RoBF gives

QBJohnnywas October 12 2009 5:06 PM EDT

ToA also has all that lovely PTH.

QBJohnnywas October 12 2009 5:08 PM EDT

PTH which can double dip and provide a massive weapon + on a ranged weapon AND a melee weapon. That's a lot of free NW. Chucking evasion on it as well would be overkill.

QBRanger October 12 2009 5:08 PM EDT

I disagree on the RBF.

High level RBFs, in addition to unique damage and magic reduction, give over 100 evasion. Which is 1 less hit a round. Which is 25%-33% less damage at least vs tanks. Which is not trivial. In fact, it is one of the best methods of damage reduction. Equal to or better than the MgS.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] October 12 2009 5:10 PM EDT

i still think the game is missing something in regards to attacker's having a dex disadvantage or defender's dex advantage. the contrasting bonus works well but do we need a penalty for the above described scenario or some other type of defensive bonus?

QBRanger October 12 2009 5:12 PM EDT

Not sure I understand Dude, I think I do but can you explain in more detail please, perhaps with an example?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] October 12 2009 5:14 PM EDT

if i attack someone and have a dex advantage as an attacker, i can get extra hits. if, however i have a disadvantage on dex, whether that be 50, 10 or 1 percent of the defender's dex, then it matters not.

i would like to see the defender's dex advantage mean as much, or at least something, as the attacker's dex advantage.

Brakke Bres [Ow man] October 12 2009 5:14 PM EDT

100 evasion? let me see that would require a tattoo with 153mil NW that is close to a tattoo of 8 mil in lvls. There are only 5 tattoo's bigger then/close to then that.

Sorry I don't see what is good about evasion without dex.

And why do people realize that 1 hit per round is the norm and 3 or 4 or 5 for that matter?

QBRanger October 12 2009 5:30 PM EDT

I can agree with that dude.

And why Henk do people think 0 hits has to be the norm.

1 less hit is massive. Even if you hit 4 times a round.

QBRanger October 12 2009 7:38 PM EDT

"100 evasion? let me see that would require a tattoo with 153mil NW that is close to a tattoo of 8 mil in lvls. There are only 5 tattoo's bigger then/close to then that."

Would you like another shot at that statement?

A Halidon Familiar 8,509,712 owned by Adminedyit (Edyit)
A Halidon Familiar 8,322,160 owned by Proteus (Proteus X)
A Halidon Familiar 8,030,587 owned by Windwalker (Yanki)
Big Jig 9,663,005 owned by QBBast (Dixie Cousins)
Demon Prince 8,507,409 owned by LightningRaider (Incompetent Duo)
The War Wizard Gift 9,989,013 owned by Zenai (FuerGrissa ost Drauka)
The Machine 9,366,622 owned by QBRanger (Heroes)
Super Knock-Out Punch 8,908,427 owned by SuperHD (Vectoidz)
A Tattoo of Augmentation 8,405,577 owned by Picasso (Guernica)
Acoustic Shadowing 8,271,499 owned by Scion (Death-Note)
Dragon Tattoo 11,382,971 owned by Mikel (King of Pain)
Metal Gear Mk. II 10,529,395 owned by Voyevoda (Solid Snake)
Nefarious Plot 9,446,121 owned by Nemerizt (Team Rocket)
Dish Machine 9,263,957 owned by deifeln7 (Priestess of the Moon)
Steeds of the Apocalypse 11,812,051 owned by QBnovice (Dagobah)
A Steel Familiar 9,884,783 owned by PoisoN (NWO)
Tattoo of WoC 8,440,082 owned by Godwolf (Blighted)
A Rune of Solitude 9,704,772 owned by Rawr (Konoha's Finest)
A Rune of Solitude 9,418,621 owned by hzarb (The Lega)
Death To DM 8,889,073 owned by Eliteofdelete (Zangy)
A Rune of Solitude 8,517,402 owned by Adminbartjan (B Ark)
Mark of Power 8,358,063 owned by gols090 (Principle)
Number 1 MPR 7,927,423 owned by Little Anthony (FTW)

I count 23 of them. Including LA's named tattoo.

lvl is not recognized by the dictionary.

Not that rare I would say. And 100 evasion as I stated is a massive damage reduction. 25-33% generally given most tanks hit 3-4 times a round.

Brakke Bres [Ow man] October 12 2009 7:42 PM EDT

and how many of those are RoBF? indeed 5.

QBRanger October 12 2009 7:43 PM EDT

Then you mistyped that statement. Or I read it wrong.

Brakke Bres [Ow man] October 12 2009 7:52 PM EDT

Well you were talking about RoBF's.

And I stand with my statement that evasion is more useful in combination with DX then just the RoBF's evasion.

Since most RoBF's are on 20 DX enchanters/HP minions and those have 0 DX, you get max DX advantage which gives you 2-4 times more CTH then you would vs an equal DX target.

And no that 100 evasion does not reduce a single hit in this particular situation.

And I think when the server got moved the dictionary didn't.

As RoBF, DX and CTH are not in the spell checker. And I am not placing this text in HTML format either. I think what happened to the Google search happened to the spell checker. I hope this is enough to pad my text.

QBRanger October 12 2009 7:53 PM EDT

How does 100 evasion not reduce a hit by 1 each round.

The evasion on the RBF, if I am not mistaken is not needed to be matched by dexterity as it is not xp. I could be wrong.

But even then your typing 80-90 evasion which is 80-90 less PTH which is just about 1 hit a round.

Brakke Bres [Ow man] October 12 2009 8:00 PM EDT

"The evasion on the RBF, if I am not mistaken is not needed to be matched by dexterity as it is not xp. I could be wrong. "


"How does 100 evasion not reduce a hit by 1 each round."

MAX DX ADVANTAGE is why. It gives you 2-4 times more CTH then you would vs an equal DX target.

So if you have here an elb with 200 CTH you would get 400 to 800 CTH and anything in between because of randomness. Now the highest number of hits we have ever seen is six in one round. So presumable you would get 4 to 5 hits each round with roughly 300 CTH to spare. Getting my drift? That 100 evasion or -100CTH would result in 300 to 700 CTH because of max dex advantage.
No I personally experienced that my 89 evasion character had 0 impact on the number of hits. If a opponents minion hit my enchanters, 0 evasion, for 3 hits each round, the same minion would hit that 89 evasion minion for the equal amount of hits.

QBRanger October 12 2009 8:03 PM EDT

I have no idea what your typing.

There is BTH and PTH.

BTH for the elb can give max 200% which is 2 hits.

I have a PTH of 279 which is 2 hits + 79% chance for another.

Remove 100 PTH and I have 179 PTH which is 1 hit + 79% chance for another.

See, 1 less hit regardless of my dexterity advantage.

Lowering my damage by that 1/x hits in a round.

Am I wrong?

QBRanger October 12 2009 8:14 PM EDT

BTH is the dexterity portion of the equation.

PTH has NOTHING to do with dexterity.

Brakke Bres [Ow man] October 12 2009 8:15 PM EDT

There is BTH and PTH."

If you sum these up you get CTH

"BTH for the elb can give max 200% which is 2 hits."

BTH for an ELB, provided archery is present, is 100 not 200, which is one guaranteed 1 hit actually.

"I have a PTH of 279 which is 2 hits + 79% chance for another.
Remove 100 PTH and I have 179 PTH which is 1 hit + 79% chance for another."

Which means on an equal dex base you have actually 379 CTH this means
3 guaranteed hits with 79& for a forth. And yes if you have equal
dex then evasion would remove 100 PTH from that weapon and you
"only" have 2 guaranteed hits + 79% chance for a third.

However as soon as you have Max DX advantage that combined PTH BTH is
multiplied by 2 to 4 then that 100 Evasion means nothing.

Or I could be wrong and I should be ashamed.

QBRanger October 12 2009 8:19 PM EDT

I do believe you have things grossly mistaken.

The BTH of the ELB is 100%, meaning you have 100% chance to hit with equal dexterity.

If you have max dex advantage you can get 200% BTH. If you have less dex than your target you have less than 100% BTH depending on the ratio.

The PTH is different and in no ways subject to dexterity advantage or disadvantage.

So 100 evasion lowerer PTH by 100. The only way I can see where it will not reduce the number of hits by 1 is if you have less than 100 PTH.

Which is possible if your fighting low level mini-tanks.

But vs Nem's RBF minion, I see a noticeable decrease in number of hits per round. Even counting the missile penalty in the first missile rounds.

QBRanger October 12 2009 8:20 PM EDT

"However as soon as you have Max DX advantage that combined PTH BTH is
multiplied by 2 to 4 then that 100 Evasion means nothing."

There is no multiplication involved in the to hit equations.

If so, then would not 200% x 279 give me 558 total PTH. I never ever have seen 6 hits a round. I do get some quint given the ToA.

Brakke Bres [Ow man] October 12 2009 8:25 PM EDT

I am mistaken I misread a post.

But I am still correct.

BTH gets increased by 100 due to max DX advantage.

PTH gets decreased by 100 due to evasion

No change.

And the spell checker flagged three words and I am forced to pad.

QBRanger October 12 2009 9:27 PM EDT

What are you not getting?

"BTH gets increased by 100 due to max DX advantage.

PTH gets decreased by 100 due to evasion."

It does not matter if you have or have not a dex advantage. The evasion on the RBF lowers the hits by 1 a round at 8M level (100 evasion). The dex part occurs with or without the RBF equipped.

Let us try it another way.

Let us say character A would hit character B 4 times with his dex advantage and his ELB.

Character A would hit character B only 3 times if character B has a RBF on at 8M levels.

That is 25% less damage. A huge difference.

The dex part has NO say in the matter. A ToA tank will generally always have a dex advantage over a non ToA minion.

What am I explaining wrong?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] October 12 2009 9:44 PM EDT

モThat is 25% less damage. A huge difference. ヤ for an item worth how much? 140m or so?

This is what it would take for a mage shield to do the same thing:

+34 = $2,028,384

i thought you were saying recently that the mage shield was too weak or something?

QBRanger October 12 2009 9:46 PM EDT

What if it reduces hits by 1 out of 3, or 1 out of 2?

What would it take a MgS to get to 50% reduction?
or 33% reduction?

I was using a simplistic example for Bres.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] October 12 2009 9:48 PM EDT

often times at the top game it is 1 out of 5 though. You need to take that into account if you are talking about the evasion granted by an 8 mil Robf.

QBRanger October 12 2009 9:52 PM EDT

I count 4 people with the capacity to hit 5 times a round in missile. Plus a few of the HFs.

I see quite a few with 3.

So 4 would be a good average. 25% less reduction give or take on average.

Yes, the MgS is a pretty good for the NW given its restrictions.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] October 12 2009 9:52 PM EDT

"What would it take a MgS to get to 50% reduction?
or 33% reduction?"

likewise, how big would the robf need to be to take your damage to those same levels?

QBRanger October 12 2009 9:54 PM EDT

If the RBF user had a high dexterity about 8M levels.

If it had 6M dexterity, I would get 2.8 hits a round. Subject to the penalty tanks get in the early missile rounds. Probably averages 2.5 hits a round.

Obviously though not many RBF users except perhaps Priestess has a high dex RBF minion.

QBRanger October 12 2009 10:00 PM EDT


I wish i had the ability to edit.

It should be 3.5 average hits a round with equal dex.

Either way, yes, it would take a lot to lower my hits by 1 in 3.

But a lot of other archers you can with a decent dex.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] October 12 2009 10:01 PM EDT

20 dex would be a more equivalent comparison to a mage shield that requires no intrinsic though in my humble opinion.

QBRanger October 13 2009 6:20 AM EDT

Any coincidence the top 2 characters both use an exbow?

QBJohnnywas October 13 2009 6:30 AM EDT

Probably the same coincidence that the next two chars down use the two biggest weapons in the game. :)

QBRanger October 13 2009 8:58 AM EDT


They are only 300M NW weapons. They should not really do much. :)

Why even have NW involved if it should not do much :)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] October 13 2009 9:07 AM EDT

On the other hand, should 300M NW be an Auto Win?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] October 13 2009 9:08 AM EDT

(and don't they do *something* by letting them be third and fourth place?)

QBRanger October 13 2009 9:10 AM EDT

Hell no,

There are characters I lose to and SHD as well.

And others that I will also coming up with their NCBs.

But should a 90M weapon be an autowin vs all tanks?

Neo Japan October 13 2009 9:13 AM EDT

would an AoI work against an Exbow?

spell check spell check spell check spell check spell check spell check spell check spell check spell check spell check spell check

QBJohnnywas October 13 2009 9:16 AM EDT

No, the seeking ability overrides the invisibility.

QBRanger October 13 2009 9:18 AM EDT

As does the Mage seeker bow overrides the AoI.

Neo Japan October 13 2009 9:20 AM EDT

then the only thing I see is PL with ST on PL minion

Zenai [Ministry of Pain] October 13 2009 9:27 AM EDT

Ways to Possibly fix this Scenario:

Amulet of Archery


Crossbowship Skill

For that matter make a Skill for Melee Weapons too. The Top 5 ought to do just to make it fair all around.

If you cry FOUL then be FAIR and take ALL of them away.

QBRanger October 13 2009 9:41 AM EDT


WIth a PL minion, one hit is all it takes to drain their strengh. And when the PL minion's strength is gone, your tank takes the drain.

So at best I believe it gives you 1 round.

And Z,

Why try to patch a broken thing when fixing it appropriately would be much better?

Why does the exbow need to drain all a tanks strength? Is not 75% enough damage reduction? Or 50%? Or even 90%? Why into the negatives?

People chat about USD winning the battle. The exbow is another form of USD winning, but with much less USD needed.

QBRanger October 13 2009 9:44 AM EDT

But Z does have a point.

People stated archery was needed due to the over powered nature of the Elven Long Bow.

Well there are current far more foils for the elb than for the exbow. And even less for the current exbow/rbf combo. Which needed far less net worth/USD than the bow.

QBJohnnywas October 13 2009 9:51 AM EDT

The problem with putting a cap on the drain is that it's too easy to circumvent then. I'm lower on strength now because I rejigged my stats, but I had 10 mill until last week. With some of the big weapons 2.5 mill is still enough to do decent damage. If I'd dropped my dex and pumped Strength then I could still be sitting with the best part of 5 or 6 mill easily after the drain. Couple that with the huge bows and you would end up with a weapon that really isn't much use at the top end of the game.

I've given this a bit of thought lately and I personally think the weapon is next to useless unless it can work at the upper levels. And the only way you can achieve that is by enabling complete drain. If that's the end result then you have to make complete drain a lot more difficult to get. Which means making the percentage per upgrade a lot lot smaller so that you have to spend a lot of money to get full drain.

The only other solution is to get rid of the thing. I really don't think there is an inbetween point.

QBJohnnywas October 13 2009 9:56 AM EDT

Look at Z's char. 16 mill strength and a MPB of over 4 mill. A 50% drain would still give him more strength than my tank and he'd likely still be hitting for over 2 mill per strike.

That in itself would make a capped exbow worthless because it probably wouldn't stop him.

I do think it's an all or nothing item.

The other option would be to add a recovery time, so that after a certain number of rounds the tank starts to get his strength back. Make it a temporary drain.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] October 13 2009 10:22 AM EDT

The Problem with Z's stance is still that Ranged goes first.

It's such a huge bonus that ranged DD needs over a 50% reduction in damage to balance it.

If you want to equate Ranged to Melee Weapons (by maybe introducing a skill needed to be trained to use a Melee Weapon), then you need to let Melee hit at the same time as Ranged.

QBsutekh137 October 13 2009 10:26 AM EDT

But JW, a 50% drain, hitting three times, would result in a cumulative drain of:

100% -> 50 -> 25 -> 12.5

That's only three hits. Harder to do than one, yes, but still doable.

There are a LOT more ways to equilibrate this than saying this needs to be an "all or nothing" item:

** Require more hits: then the shooter needs to invest in more dexterity or +. If hitting is ALREADY too binary, then don't say the exbow should also be binary... fix to-hit if that is the case.
** Flatten the drain curve. Sure, let it drain all STR, but make the damage (can be pre or post damage reduction, whatever) have to be greater. That means someone using the exbow needs to invest in more x or get more STR, which makes sense. That's what the game is about -- mixing NW and MPR to be effective.
** Change the drain basis. Not sure about this one, just throwing out ideas, but one could also titrate the issue by having the damage/drain ratio base against something other than HP. Doesn't it seem silly that a tank with a lot of HP is far more immune from the exbow than one without? Again, it's that "all or nothing" mentality, and THAT is what we should be commenting about, nay, railing against!

I have a difficult time understanding why so many folks embrace this "all or nothing" or "rock/scissors/paper" mentality. Is that really fun? As I said in a different thread, isn't it more fun when tactics have more subtleties to them, such that instead of rock ALWAYS beating scissors, it sometimes loses to a scissors that has some paper back-up? Does that make sense? Doesn't it sound more fun to have the advantages and foils be more of a tapestry than a set of on/off switches?

QBRanger October 13 2009 10:51 AM EDT

I think Sut explained things better than I could. I agree completely with him.

QBRanger October 13 2009 10:52 AM EDT

And 12.5% of initial strength is a large damage reduction. As it was stated, why does it need to be all or nothing?

QBsutekh137 October 13 2009 10:56 AM EDT

And Ranger said, if needed, let the drain be 75%. Then three hits yields:

100% -> 25 -> 6.25 -> 1.6

Is that enough drain? Down to 6% in two shots, practically nothing after three. a 60% cap would be:

100% -> 40 -> 16 -> 6.4

Math is fun. And it can change the curve in a lot of ways. An infinite number of ways, in fact. So you'll excuse me if I just don't buy into this all-or-nothing stuff...

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] October 13 2009 11:06 AM EDT

it is all or nothing due the same all or nothing nature of ranged damage itself. i think what others are saying is that if you leave ranged damage as all or nothing then the specialty crossbows need to stay that way as well.

i know this is what i have been saying, just like the evasion argument, if you get a change it will come with a change to the nature of ranged as well, in my humble opinion.

QBRanger October 13 2009 11:11 AM EDT

How can you say ranged is all or nothing?

I and other archers/missile users, still have to do damage. Have to hit.

A few of battle go into melee, esp vs Jiggies.

I get eaten alive by RoS characters as do most archers.

But one or 2 hits from an exbow ends the battle completely.

If archery was like in CB1, doing 10s of millions of damage, I would agree with your statement. But not now.

The ELB has many foils. Including the ToE, heavy AC, GA, Jiggies, evasion.

The exbow has very little with 1 or 2 hits doing all the damage one needs.

But to say ranged is all or nothing is not correct.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] October 13 2009 11:13 AM EDT

"How can you say ranged is all or nothing?"

if you do not win in ranged, your chances of winning at all (if strict archery and no other damage type) doesn't go down dramatically?

QBRanger October 13 2009 11:14 AM EDT

If you put in a cap, I would have little problem making PL not be effective vs the exbow/axbow.

Then you have to hit a few times to get a significant but noticeable damage reduction.

Even at 50% cap on drain:

100% ----> 50% ----> 25% ----> 12.5%

So 3 hits gives a tank 12.5% or 1/8th of its initial strength. Which reduces damage by over 75%? or even more.

Is that not powerful enough?

Again, why does the exbow have to be so binary?

QBRanger October 13 2009 11:18 AM EDT

"if you do not win in ranged, your chances of winning at all (if strict archery and no other damage type) doesn't go down dramatically? "

Actually if you look at my fightlogs, I win a very large % of my battles that go into melee rounds. Bast and LR are the 2 that always go to melee. LR gets done in via my small GA though. At least his Jiggy does.

I choose not to use a melee weapon due to ENC and the cost. However, I can hit in melee rounds. It is just vs the Jiggy that I do not.

But then again, does not a FB mage have to kill in melee? So should there not be a weapon to nerf them to smitherines?

With PL/TSA/revive, an archer has to have a very high ELB to win. But there are way other than the exbow to beat an archer. The exbow is just to binary in how it works.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] October 13 2009 11:24 AM EDT

i am merely going by what jon has said. he obviously thinks it needs to be pretty binary as he looked at it recently and stated that it is a very powerful counter to a powerful strategy, or something to that effect.

he must also think it is still necessary due to the same reason. as i have stated in nearly all of the recent threads regarding the exbow, if you want to lobby for a successful change, figure out why jon thinks the way he does and then offer alternatives that address not just what you see as the uberness of the exbow, but also addresses the uberness of what it is countering.

if you are looking at only one side of the equation, then in my opinion your chances of success are nil.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] October 13 2009 11:27 AM EDT

^my above post is why i equate this debate to the evasion one.

everyone agreed it was too much but none of us really thought the whole damage table would be tweaked as well. jon is perhaps the only one in the game who truly looks at both sides of the equations.

QBRanger October 13 2009 11:31 AM EDT


I am not asking you to defend Jon's way of thinking.

I am trying to understand it and figure out why it works as it does.

Do you think that 1 hit = game over is appropriate? When there is really no defense vs it, other than perhaps to use a PL/str minion to absorb 1 round. Or use the tattoo slot on a ToE just to prevent the drain?

While there are plenty of other counters to missile round damage?

Stop defending the system and please reply if you personally believe the exbow, as it currently is, is appropriate for this game. That is 1 hit = 16M strength loss.

I have tried to ask Jon and others what the role of the exbow is. Other than his statement that is was working as intended, I still have no idea exact what its role is. Working as intended 2 years ago and now are completely different given the NW of weapons presently, the MPR of characters presently and the addition of other weapons/items/skill during that time.

What worked before does not work now and vica versa.

So do you believe the exbow is right for CB? A weapon that cannot be avoided unless you have mulitfold dex advantage and that can drain 16+M strength in 1 hit rendering your character essentially dead.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] October 13 2009 11:36 AM EDT

if the exbow was removed tomorrow, would you change your setup in the least?

Zenai [Ministry of Pain] October 13 2009 11:56 AM EDT

Sut, Ranger well put.

My stance is simple really folks. With a skill the drain could be capped in the same way Archery Damage was. We have a cap too remember this folks. Those of us doing Uber Damage is due to several things, Dex, Str, Archery & Major NW.

If we have to have this Cap/Penalty then so should ExBow users. Have Crossbowmanship work the same way Archery does and Nerf the Drain like our damage got Nerfed. This will at least level the playing field and make it less binary.

QBsutekh137 October 13 2009 12:15 PM EDT

I'd like to point out that ranged/melee binary is not the same as one-hit-and-out binary.

If a team commits to ranged, as in, an archer, yes, they are making a "binary" choice. But I don't call that binary in terms of game mechanics. Binary is something that completely shuts down a team and causes a loss, like FoD used to be in CB1.

Ranged/melee "binary" hardly has much to do with the discussion about the exbow, in my opinion, especially since there are plenty of ways to take physical ranged damage OUT of the equation (or at least reduce it in a non-binary way):

-- Damage reduction layers: ToE, AC, PL, Jig
-- Combatting with ranged magic: MM is fairly popular.
-- GA: works against physical and magical, but I thought it was worth pointing out since GA doesn't do a thing to stop the exbow.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] October 13 2009 12:21 PM EDT

but the nature of archery, at least at the top, is massive burst damage quickly. all of those counters work great for melee damage which is more drawn out and of a damage over time nature.

quick massive damage needs a quick massive counter in my mind or else we need to make ranged damage work like melee damage, which removes choices and options.

QBRanger October 13 2009 12:31 PM EDT


There are a few characters, even with my high damage output that make it to melee. And a few that beat me even with my high damage output, using that output against me.

The exbow is a simple one and done type of weapon.

Now you ask if I would change my setup if the exbow was removed. Why does that matter? I may switch from DBs to EBs, but why does it matter? I am typing about a 55M NW weapon that take out all tanks. Some of the highest strength minions in the game in 1 hit.

When Nem tried Jir's exbow, it was too easy for him to nerf all tanks it was laughable. Combined with the RBF and its special damage, I could not think of a way to defeat him.

The exbow is not in the rock/paper/scissors mold. It is more of the rock/paper/sledgehammer mold. It destroys all tanks too easily.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] October 13 2009 12:36 PM EDT

if we are trying to figure out what jon's purpose is for the item then i think the question is all that matters. especially given his most recent input on the matter.

QBRanger October 13 2009 12:43 PM EDT

How I would change my setup?

I would likely go to EBs. Possibly go to a MgS instead of the BoM.

I would have likely stayed with the HF/tank setup instead of the ToA setup. It helped me far more vs RoS characters having the TSA/AC vs GA.

Or possibly I would have not changed I thing. I would need to experiment. But right now I HAVE to use DBs + BOM + AOM due to the fact I have to try to pump as much damage as possible before I get leeched from the exbow.

So perhaps the exbow is causing more archers to forgo defense and pump up their ELBs forsaking melee due to its all or nothing effect.

One of the reasons I upped my elb from 20k to 25k was to try to do more damage before I got the 1 round leech. I went from HF to ToA to unlearn my 3M base strength and pump up my HP to try to help vs the exbow. Neither helped since all it takes is one or 2 hits to suck my strength dry.

Also, if you now HAVE to have a PL/str/TSA/revive minion to help vs the leech, does that not make single minion characters more unviable? Or even 2 minions ones if you do not have spare xp to spend. Decreasing choices.

But how does this help you figure out Jon's plan for the exbow?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] October 13 2009 12:43 PM EDT

by most recent input, i mean the changelog thread in addition to this post:

"Moving this to General instead of the thinly-veiled sarcastic Congrats.

I agree with novice:

> The exbow has worked the same way for years, and has forced teams with tank only damage to wear defensive equipment to protect against the power of the exbow. This isn't new, or broken per say. Any more than decay or the RoS is broken. They're exceptionally specialized and are designed as counters to a particular setup (often a very powerful setup in itself).

In particular I'm reluctant to change something that has worked, if not "great," then at least "pretty well" for years. Also, some players do have a tendency to cry for a nerf whenever someone beats them with a narrowly-targeted strategy, and that's part of CB. (And if you're wondering what the antecedent of "that" is, it's both. :)

But, I also agree with sutekh:

> Amazing or not, when it comes to being able to have massive rewards based on one, flawed item, that affects just about every aspect of the game. It skews the new user and new character bonuses, skews clan results, and skews the score ladder.

I'm open to suggestions for making the exbow/axbow still useful without being such a hard counter. (Soft counters are more interesting.) I don't think just tweaking the numbers involved is the answer, which is why it's a tough problem."

QBJohnnywas October 13 2009 12:46 PM EDT

When I talk about it doing a 50% (or whatever)drain of total strength and capping it, I mean in total across a battle - not a hit or a round - across the whole battle. So, without a HoC in ranged it would do 10% drain max each round.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] October 13 2009 12:48 PM EDT

"But how does this help you figure out Jon's plan for the exbow?"

if the reason he keeps it around is to dilute power on melee teams by forcing them to spread their resources around instead of focusing on damage, then any proposed fix that only looks at the one side of the equation (making the exbow less powerful) will be analogous to banging your head against a wall.

QBRanger October 13 2009 12:56 PM EDT

Yes Dude, I remember that very well.

But this statement I take issue with and believe Jon has gotten it a bit wrong:

"The exbow has worked the same way for years, and has forced teams with tank only damage to wear defensive equipment to protect against the power of the exbow."

I am wearing defensive equipment. And still get the 1 hit leech.

When I was a HF/tank, I had the tank equipment, not very heavy AC, but still 170 AC due to being forced to use DBs instead of CML or EB. With the 2nd largest DBs in the game. And still got hit by the largest exbows multiple times, with all my HF and tanks strength gone in 1-2 hits. 1 hit all the time for the HF. Now, vs Nem and other exbow mod dex users, a non-ToA tank will not have enough dex to stop from being hit 2+ times a round.

So I went ToA trying to get more dexterity. And even with 1.5x his dex and 205 DBs, I get hit over 50% of the time with his +75 exbow.

You and I am sure others will just say "Here goes Ranger again crying someone beats him". And it certain does seem that way. But there will be others who use the same strat as Nem. And there is really nothing tanks can do to counter it.

If 1.5-2x dex and 180+ DBs is not defensive enough, what the heck is?

I would love to see what defensive equipment Jon had in mind.

If he meant the ToE, then that is foolish to use the only tattoo slot to stop 1 weapon. If it is very heavy AC, then do not bother with a tank as you main damage dealer anyway. You will have no dex, less strength, and little chance to hit other normally equipped tanks.

Especially when 1 hit=16+ million strength loss.

I am not complaining about getting hit. I take it from SHD, Z and other tanks. And laugh in their face at the puny damage they do. But when all it takes is one hit to drain my strength, yes, I have a huge problem with the mechanic.

Please let me know what defensive equipment is. And how it prevents getting hit 1 time. Is defensive equipment a set of Mikel's DBs? That is just foolish. It seems that DBs are a requirement instead of an option for any tank now with the exbow. Which is not really choice and overall not a good thing.

QBsutekh137 October 13 2009 12:58 PM EDT

Jonathan changed the exbow so that a pure enchanter can't heft a huge one and have it work. That was a step in the right direction, and that action speaks volumes. No, we don't know if he wants the foil to still be super-fast (when it works) or not. But if he does, then that is, quite frankly, in glaring contrast to every other aspect of the game. Therefore, I don't actually require Jonathan's opinion on it to know it doesn't _feel_ right. This from a guy who doesn't use an exbow and doesn't sport any tank offense.

Additionally, while I also agree with novice's point (as did Jonathan in what dudemus quotes), I will go out on a limb and say that I don't think Jonathan is appreciating the fact that items get bigger. And bigger. And bigger. The reason the exbow worked OK "for years" is that for the first 2-3 years of CB2's inception, a 60-million dollar weapon was barely possible. That is no longer the case, and there will be more and more. No amount of STR training can keep up (because it all gets nuked in one hit), and even training HP up is hard to do because of dilution. Item's don't suffer dilution. They only get bigger, they only do one thing, and they never go away.

Yes, it is a good point that a quick-burst offense have a quick-burst foil. So let's analyze that further. Against a four minion team using a single archer, it will take you four (or five, depending on familiar use) rounds to kill off the other team. If you have an archer and Hal combo, it will take three to kill the same team.

If an exbow hits you, you are instantly foiled for all rounds. Shouldn't the exbow take 3-4 rounds to foil a tank? As in, at least TWO hits to drain STR, which could be done in two rounds against a tank/Hal combo?

Now, one might argue: "Ha, but Sutekh, the SoD can kill a WHOLE TEAM in one round -- what about that?" And Ranger has consistently stated that he thinks the SoD does a bit much, especially considering it requires no Archery training to use effectively. So, if the SoD needs a tone-down, then tone it down. Don't tone everything else up and build a house of binary cards.

QBsutekh137 October 13 2009 12:59 PM EDT

JW, I have never supported that type of cap, and was not under the impression Ranger did either. When I say a cap, I mean a per-round reduction cap.

QBRanger October 13 2009 1:03 PM EDT

No, I do not want a "cap"

I advocate a AMF type of ratio in determining leech.

Something that to get 75% or higher leech will need a massive exbow with massive strength.

To get 25% leech would need a modicum of strength on a moderate exbow.

With most of the drain being in the 25-75% range. At least to start to see how that goes.

And the drain being based upon the strength you currently have, so you will never be in the negatives, just much lower strength with corresponding lower damage capacity.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] October 13 2009 1:06 PM EDT

HP appears to be a very viable defense against complete drain, Nem has forced me to up my ex to the tune of 10m CB, and I'm still nowhere near doing max drain. To get to the magic 5% mark, I'd have to be hitting for 900k damage... no ex in game does anything like that.

Even getting normal drain would be very difficult, as I've only seen my ex hit 400k once after the upgrade (now at x3900)

QBJohnnywas October 13 2009 1:07 PM EDT

I really don't think a cap is the answer either. The thing is, as I've said above if it is even worth having around then it should be able to drain completely. Because if it leaves enough strength for a huge ELB to do big damage then it's not a worthy foil. Remember, weapons are growing but so are minions. Percentage drains of smaller stats leave very little effective remains, but the bigger the stat the better able a tank is to shrug off the effects and make it useless.

Personally I'd get rid of it rather than neuter it.

QBRanger October 13 2009 1:10 PM EDT


I have 14+M hp and get drained in 2 hits by Nem's exbow.

His tank has x5000 exbow at 55M NW with 3+M strength. Hits me for 200k+ damage per hit.

If 14M hp is not defense enough, what is?

When I was at 11M HP, your exbow at x1750 needed what 2-3 hits and only 1 for my HF.

While it was so easy to up your exbow by x2k or more, how easy is it for me to compensate for more HP or AC. Not possible.

ToA tanks essentially then have no chance vs the exbow. Normal tanks do not also due to a lower dexterity and getting hit more times per round.

Vicious cycle meet CB.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] October 13 2009 1:17 PM EDT

with a x3900 EX and 13m strength it takes me six hits to drain Meowth's strength...
He hit my wall with 5 drains before it finally touches my tanks strength (for a measly 1.2m drain)

How are your numbers so different from what I'm seeing here?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] October 13 2009 1:18 PM EDT

"But if he does, then that is, quite frankly, in glaring contrast to every other aspect of the game."

as is the linear cost model for the damage modifier on weapons. every other damage boost in the game is based on xp or a cost curve model.

if there is no actual foil, then the whole game becomes a usd arms race with the biggest buyer the winner. likewise if the exbow is made to just cost more to do the same thing then we still have the usd arms race, no?

if you say, take away the aspect of the game that is glaringly out of whack with the rest of it, then i say sure! put the damage mod on weapons back on a cost curve and we can then make the specialty crossbows novelty items.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] October 13 2009 1:22 PM EDT

I will say that in my fights against SHD after the upgrade I now drain almost all his STR in one hit

X-Wing shot Dog with wooden cane [343126] (first hit in round 3)
Dog hit The Force with The Lunatic [501]

So it takes your normally nearly 2m damage down to almost nothing in one hit. I can't see why it's so different from my fights with Nem.

QBsutekh137 October 13 2009 1:22 PM EDT

JW, a 60% per-round cap means you could take a tank down to 6.4% of their starting STR in just three hits. 6.4% of 10 million STR is only 640K. How hard will an ELB hit with that paltry STR?

I am still not understanding why you think it needs to be all or nothing? Why not just adjust the curve until it still has an effect, but not a 100% foil?

I am starting to think folks really do like pure binary game mechanics. They like things like 20 HP minions that can't die due to PL, gear that entirely annihilates another team with one hit, an even an item that can simply bring you right back to life AFTER dying! Double binary!

Sure, I've liked some binary things, too, like fizzling a completely DE-dependent team and killing them in one round with FB. But to do that, I had to invest 50-60% of my entire team's MPR. When you dedicate to one facet that much, then it SHOULD be binary.

But that's a far cry from a 60-million-dollar piece of gear that will never go away, regardless of how many characters come and go.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] October 13 2009 1:24 PM EDT

In the time it takes to get those three hits it's completely possible that a large ELB has done 20m damage.

QBsutekh137 October 13 2009 1:26 PM EDT

So? Who cares how much damage it does if it has only killed 2 or 3 minions out of 4? We aren't comparing damage to damage -- that wouldn't make sense. Were comparing battle-outcome-changing facets.

QBsutekh137 October 13 2009 1:29 PM EDT

And while we're at it, then, why not make STR a smarter curve, too. It seems that 3 million STR is about all anyone needs to knock out an opponent 1-2-3-4 (exbow notwithstanding, obviously. *smile*). With all of the STR-enhancing gear out there, is that really necessary? What if getting an ELB-user down to 1 million STR really did reduce damage output enough to change battle outcomes?

Look, all I am saying is that these ratios and curves can be adjusted so that things don't HAVE to be so black and white. That's my whole point, actually. The real number system is smoother and continuous. Use it.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] October 13 2009 1:32 PM EDT

The point is that if the exbow takes three rounds to do it's job, it's very likely that only teams with 4 minions will ever have a chance of using it as a foil.

QBRanger October 13 2009 1:36 PM EDT

Perhaps Nem has more AC than SHD can, combined with 18M HP. Something no ToA tank can every do. Or in fact almost any other tank in the game.

I would guess your creeping closer to the critical point where just a bit more damage would take Nem's strength totally out.

Which is the problem. A few more million destroys all his strength and there is NOTHING he can do about it, short of using DBs and even then 1 hit may drain his strength then due to less AC.

So melee tanks are a thing of the past now, unless they go very heavy AC and even then they will get hit numerous times with the exbow and if they take damage in missile rounds, have less hp to withstand the drain of the exbow.

But Dude, what defensive equipment can a tank wear to stop all this drain?

QBsutekh137 October 13 2009 1:36 PM EDT

In a lot of ways, it is already that way, since an exbow is usually something thrown on an extra minion.

And if you want to fix that, then make the exbow take two hits, then, instead of three. That's still better than one. Would that be acceptable to you? Like I said, if the STR-damage curve is adjusted at the same time, and damage falls off more quickly even with just 40-50% STR reduction, that changes things, too. In fact, STR being a tad bit step-wise around the 2-3 million mark may be what started this whole "buff everything" cycle.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] October 13 2009 1:42 PM EDT

"But Dude, what defensive equipment can a tank wear to stop all this drain?"

i don't think stopping it is the point at least without losing to other teams by focusing on stopping those with the specialty crossbows.

QBRanger October 13 2009 1:43 PM EDT


You frequently quote Jon's statement that defensive equipment is needed.

So what defensive equipment should I use or have used?

If not stopping it is the point of the whole matter. Since 1 hit or 2 is all it takes.

Here is a battle vs Nem:

Dog skewered Jesse James with The Lunatic [2532254]
Dog skewered Jesse James with The Lunatic [2127915]
Dog skewered Jesse James with The Lunatic [2254001]
Dog skewered Jesse James with The Lunatic [2100033]
Dog cries "Ha Ha Charade You Are!"
Meowth hit Dog with Scratch [197392]
Dog looks weaker!

Sheep's shot ricocheted near Meowth
Dog shot Meowth with The Lunatic [839403]
Dog hit Meowth with The Lunatic [1010054]
Dog skewered Meowth with The Lunatic [916922]
Dog struck deep into Meowth with The Lunatic [895439]
Dog skewered Meowth with The Lunatic [1014757]

In 1 hit, my damage goes down my over 50%, is that not enough?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] October 13 2009 1:50 PM EDT

from your own posts:

"Or use the tattoo slot on a ToE just to prevent the drain?"

you could minimize the weakness to this item but it would cost you other opponents, no? could ethereal chains keep them from hitting?

QBRanger October 13 2009 2:10 PM EDT

I tried a ToE when I was using the HF, and yes, I lost 5 opponents using it. The ToE is of course as well all know crap.

I cannot use EC as I use DM.

I use EC and then SS with AC does me in. Yes, I know, choices, however I would need over 5M levels of EC to get enough dex loss and strength loss to stop the near complete drain.

Something which I feel should not have to be done just to stop one item.

It is just as viable as boosting my BOM to +50. Possible but not practical in the CB setting.

I could of course spend 170M to hire 2 more minions just for EC. Possible but not practical just to stop 1 weapon when I have a huge dex advantage, and large DBs.

It is not like I have to stop all hits. But of course I do, as does all other tanks out there with less hp then I do.

QBRanger October 13 2009 2:12 PM EDT

Within the normal range of playing, what defensive items could I or Z or SHD use to stop the complete strength drain of the exbow that we are not trying now?

Or are you saying the exbow is a 100% foil to the ToA?

But even with a regular armored tank, the exbow was my foil and destroyed my HF in 1 hit as well.

Please let me know what "defensive equipment" should I use. I have struggled with that statement.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] October 13 2009 2:17 PM EDT

in summary then you can stop or minimize the effect of this specialized strategy based on an item but you do not think you should have to give up other opponents to do so?

i have already stated that i think defensive dex advantage should do what offensive dex advantage does, just in the reverse. i think this is about the only solution to the exbow issue i can get behind.

QBRanger October 13 2009 2:21 PM EDT

I really hate to have to lose multiple opponents to prevent 1 item from nerfing my whole character.

That, to me, is not really choice. Not a give and take of equal proportions.

With the HF--> TOA, I gave up a couple of people to gain a couple people. That is choice.

Perhaps making the exbow a 0 BTH would help more. Making it possible to avoid all blows. I would prefer to see more of a curve in the drain though then a more radical change.

TheHatchetman October 13 2009 4:31 PM EDT

"as is the linear cost model for the damage modifier on weapons. every other damage boost in the game is based on xp or a cost curve model. "

the linear cost model for the displayed number... x1000 will not do twice as much damage as x500. and Voila! there's your curve ~_^

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] October 13 2009 4:48 PM EDT

"the linear cost model for the displayed number... x1000 will not do twice as much damage as x500. and Voila! there's your curve ~_^"

the cost is linear over time though, in effect the first one thousand x's cost the same as the fifth or sixth and have the same effect on damage as well. ; )

Zenai [Ministry of Pain] October 13 2009 7:14 PM EDT

The ExBow and AxBow for that matter are NOT good for CB at all as it is now I do not care what one person in this thread says otherwise.

This was supposed to be a game of soft counters as stated by Jon Himself, the Exbow is not a soft counter by any means and everyone involved whether you like it or not have to admit it is NOT a soft counter. Nothing that hits 1 Time and completely shuts down anything is a soft counter.

Quick someone make me a MageXBow where I can Drain their DD/EO/ED in one shot and watch the Fireworks start, how about I get a Weapon of any kind for that matter that will Nerf an entire Strat in one Blow in any way and see how the masses react.

They will band together and petition Jon to either kill it with fire or to Fix it because something is definitely wrong with something Binary in a system that is supposed to be based on Soft Counters.

Yeah work the curve eh guys what a line of crap, Archers get Capped why not ExBow/AxBow users as well, we got Nerfed why not them, because it doesn't do much damage you say? Once again what a line of crap, regardless of Damage the Drain is what Matters for Crying out Loud!

Ranger changed his Strat and Pumped his HP since the ExBow was supposed to be HP dependent Drain......nope he still gets drained. I figured if I get my Str high enough the Exbow wouldn't be able to do me in.....fat chance even with 16.1 Mil Str, 5.2 Mil HP, and 8.4 Mil Dex with +180 DBs I still get Hit and STILL get drained.............

From 16.1 Mil to -3 Mil is 19.1 Mil of Drain in 1 Shot and this is just hunky dory in most people's books....

ARE YOU SERIOUS?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

No this Weapon needs to be Fixed not band-aided and kicked back out FIXED!

Up the Damage and Nerf the Drain, hell make it fire in every round of Ranged for all I care but make it what it should have been to begin with in this game....a SOFT COUNTER!

I have no Problem getting beaten, I have no problem being used as a mop and wiping the floor with my face, as long as I can put up some kind of a fight. Why should I have to completely change my Strat and incorporate the same Strategy in order to beat it. What to have a Stupid back and for like Dagobah and Team Rocket are having right now....How Unbelievably Freaking Ludicrous!


{Wookie}-Jir.Vr- October 13 2009 7:21 PM EDT

Zenai you're right, but the answer isn't so simple. The exbow was a fix to something that should have just been fixed. So by "fixing" the bow itself, Jon/NS would also have to fix the original problem, and keep in mind the best solution they had for it was the exbow.

So we get back to square 1.

Zenai [Ministry of Pain] October 13 2009 7:33 PM EDT

Not really Jir. We are stuck at Square two with a Band-aid fix squarely and firmly in place that is an abomination to the direction of the game that Jon stated was his wish a Soft Countering Environment.

I have stated several ways and so has other people to fix this thing.

Higher Curve for the Drain,

Higher Upgrade Costs,

a Dependent Skill,Like Archery and with a necessary Stat Train to use properly,

Higher Damage and Lower Drain %,

The List goes on and on and none of these are good enough why? Why not a mix of a few, why cannot ANYONE for that matter agree to TRY and FIX this obviously BINARY ABOMINATION in the land of SOFT COUNTERS?

If we just get off a few high horses here(My Way is the only way/fix) and actually put forth more than a halfhearted whatever try then maybe just maybe Jon/NS will put forth more than a halfhearted whatever try and give us more than a Band-aid Fix.

QBsutekh137 October 13 2009 8:34 PM EDT

Jir, it doesn't have to be an "all or nothing" thing.

Why, oh why, is everyone so hell-bent on that?

Again, well stated, Z.

QBsutekh137 October 13 2009 8:36 PM EDT

And Jir, I apologize for my lack of reading skills (was busy reading Zen's Big Post), but what was the exbow fixing? Shouldn't we just fix that, instead? (I am honestly not sure I know what you are referring to, that's why everything I say is a question...?)

QBRanger October 13 2009 9:37 PM EDT

I have to concur with Sut.

What exactly is the exbow "fixing"?

Is it broken missile damage, like what was CB1? Then fix that. Adjust the damage of the elb or SoD.

Is it the high and higher PTH? If so, then adjust the xp/level for evasion. As PTH goes higher, compensate for that via increasing the evasion effect every so often. As more money gets into the game and weapons grow, boost the direct counter.

Is it too many battles end in missile and not enough in melee? Then change it to 5 missile rounds from 6.

All are far better alternatives then the exbow. At least that is the way I see it.

Zenai [Ministry of Pain] October 13 2009 9:48 PM EDT

Indeed there are many ways to change things as long as we are willing to work together and make them work. 1 or 2 minds are ok 15 are Fantastic especially when they are seeing different aspects of a situation and can come up with a True Fix.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] October 13 2009 9:54 PM EDT

"What exactly is the exbow "fixing"?"

that is the million dollar question!

at first i suspected it might be ranged being a broken mechanic. if that was the case though then jon would have likely changed it to affect ranged users only or more so.

this has led me to the belief that it is balancing the linear damage upgrade model as i posted earlier. i know that when i first read that he was getting rid of the curve upgrade for damage mods model that my first concern was how that would work out over time.

for more info you can see my previous post regarding this theory.

QBsutekh137 October 13 2009 10:16 PM EDT

dudemus, I believe in you! YES! Let's fix whatever was going on before! We seem to be in an (N - 1) area in the game, that instead of moving forward with binary band-aids we need to find better cures for the scratches ailin' us!

QBRanger October 13 2009 10:19 PM EDT

So perhaps if we can get Jon to really state what is so off that we need the exbow, we can fix that instead!!

QBsutekh137 October 13 2009 10:20 PM EDT

I'm going to reiterate the STR curve issue I stated before, because I'm staking CLAIM here, y'all! And watching Hedwig, so...well, you know I'm already "off".

QBRanger October 13 2009 10:25 PM EDT

Well Sut,

We can all just sit and guess what is wrong but until we know, but we can really say no more.

It seems we all agree on something for a change.

Guardian October 13 2009 11:02 PM EDT

that's why i a expending 5 months of my cbd$ in 1 exbow forge

QBsutekh137 October 13 2009 11:07 PM EDT

KW, that fraking ROCKS! Perfection.

Guardian October 13 2009 11:09 PM EDT

tell me 1 thing.

if u use high level displacement + evasion + aoi can u avoid or dramatically drop the effect of exbow?

QBsutekh137 October 13 2009 11:17 PM EDT

KW, those things stack. By level. So know, all together they won't do much more than DBs would do on their own.

AoL, on the other hand, seems to really stack on the cth...

QBRanger October 13 2009 11:23 PM EDT

When your DBs are over 100, which for the top levels is not hard, evasion needs a lot of xp to add much.

The AoI reduces BTH and overall PTH by a flat 20. Possibly 22 if named.

But it is hard to get enough dex and minus PTH to stop all attacks from hitting. Vs a lot of people this is a +/- type of item. It hits, you lose. It misses, you win.

Far too binary for a game like this.

iBananco [Blue Army] October 13 2009 11:24 PM EDT

AoI drops a fifth of a hit off. Period.

QBJohnnywas October 14 2009 4:25 AM EDT

I still think if it stops doing what it does it becomes pointless. Make it and the axbow back to being EC on a stick and there is no use for them.

Look how many people are using EC right now. The biggest EC is only 7 mill. That knocks off - what? 3.5 mill of a stat? When the stats are 16 mill and 10 mill that's like a flea bite. It's less than useless, it's a waste of space.

If the exbow and axbow cannot reduce by a drastic amount then there really is no point to them. They'll go back to being what they were before, unloved except by people who wish they could do more.

If that's what is meant by a soft counter then fine, but they'll join the ranks of the katana and exec and become weapons that just take up room.

And meanwhile the big (useful) weapons keep on getting bigger and bigger and there will be more and more tank teams running at low MPR against much larger teams.

Next stop Jiggy/PL/RBF central.

QBRanger October 14 2009 8:52 AM EDT

As opposed to exbow/RBF central?

Zenai [Ministry of Pain] October 14 2009 9:12 AM EDT

We need to concentrate our efforts on one problem at a time. Untill then we will be locked in a battle of we need everything at once and getting nothing done at all.

QBsutekh137 October 14 2009 9:35 AM EDT


Here's a summary of what you are stating (as I see it):

Get rid of the specialty bows unless they can (fairly easily) nuke all of the stat they are draining. It has to stay easy (because if it gets too hard, they will be useless), and it has to be all of the stat, otherwise they will be useless.

Correct me if I have mis-stated.

If I haven't mis-stated, here is what else we will need to do:

-- Get rid of Evasion. You can't dodge every single hit any more, eo Evasion is useless.
-- Get rid of AMF. It cannot completely stop a mage, so there is no point to it.
-- Get rid of EC. It cannot nuke enough STR to make blows any less, and cannot nuke enough DEX to make the blows come in less.
-- Get rid of DM. Unless you can fizzle all of GA and all of AS, it serves no purpose.
-- Get rid of GS. It only takes a little STR to do massive damage, so no need for GS.
-- Get rid of Haste. It only takes one massive blow to kill a minion in most cases, so no need for more dexterity.
-- Get rid of every weapon except the biggest ranged and the biggest melee. No need for anything else.
-- Get rid of AC. It takes so much, and takes other layers to get rid of enough damage to matter that we should just chuck it. Better to make a single item or amulet that we can wear that just reduces all damage to zero, and we can all get one.

If the exbow is just "EC on a stick", don't exalt it, make EC more useful so that a toned-down stick of it does something useful.

If STR is basically plenty after 2-3 million, don't think nuking STR that far is the only useful thing -- ask for the STR curve to be changed to give more play to things.

If certain familiars seem over-powered, don't buff everything else to act as a foil. Fix the familiars.

QBJohnnywas October 14 2009 10:03 AM EDT

Sut, firstly I'm not saying this is what I want, just painting a picture of how things will be.

As to your last points, the exbow is probably extreme thanks to it being buffed rather than it's opposite being reined in, but that's a point both myself and dude have made here and in the past when evasion was being targeted. Any changes to the exbow will still leave - and I include myself in this - massive weapons that are approaching unstoppable levels.

When I say 'get rid' I'll admit I'm being extreme, but the exbow will end up redundant.

Meanwhile this thread from the old days may make a few people smile.


QBRanger October 14 2009 10:50 AM EDT

The how about we boost its damage to 5 base.

Make the drain more of an AMF type, that is easy to get some drain, hard to get complete drain.

Then you have a weapon that can be useful on the damage aspect, and can be effective but not crippling to tanks.

QBsutekh137 October 14 2009 11:15 AM EDT

And as an added bonus, if a large tank REALLY invested in that route, they could do quite a bit of damage to non-tanks while be really effective against fellow tanks. Another way of removing the "strap an exbow on an extra minion..." aspect, and it would potentially let the exbow be effective for single minions...

What is the exbow base damage now? Five might be a bit high, no?

iBananco [Blue Army] October 14 2009 11:18 AM EDT

4, unfortunately.

QBsutekh137 October 14 2009 11:21 AM EDT

Duh, I'll read the Wiki...at 4 now, so it would have to go to 5.

So, ranged choices would truly become:

ELB (6): Massive damage, but no specializing. Requires Archery.
Mageseeker (5): Beat up mages and DD familiars. Requires Archery.
SoD (5): Still a nice spread-fire choice. Archery not required.
Exbow/Axbow (5): Less damage, but beats up tanks in regards to one of their most important stats. Archery not required (that's right, yeah?)

I would worry that the Exbow/Axbow would be pretty darn popular in that list, but that could be tweaked by upgrade costs, no? If it is harder to increase +, for example, that would make the choice harder.

Interesting idea...

QBRanger October 14 2009 12:21 PM EDT

I do believe the upgrade + curve on the exbow is higher than the other main missile weapons.

QBsutekh137 October 14 2009 12:26 PM EDT

What about x? (again, probably in the Wiki..) *smile*

If the exbow were:

-- more expensive to upgrade
-- but has base damage of 5
-- doesn't require archery
-- and has the extra draining capability

...would devoted tanks be inclined to to have that as a main ranged weapon? My opinion is worthless since I am not much of a tank runner... Would the choice be compelling? I would like to think it would at least be as compelling as using a Mage Seeker?

QBRanger October 14 2009 12:35 PM EDT

$9,317 per 'X' at the Blacksmith (BS) exbow base 4
$8,700 per 'X' at the Blacksmith (BS) mageseeker base 5
$8,700 per X. SoD base 5
$7,798 per 'X' at the Blacksmith (BS) ELB base 6

If the exbow is base 5, it likely will be changed to 8,700 as the other base 5 weapons.

QBJohnnywas October 14 2009 1:05 PM EDT

I'd use a xbow with some kind of drain and more damage for sure. As it stands the drain is all it is for, but up the damage and in my mind at least you can lower the drain, because the drain becomes a 'bonus' if you like. Redefine it rather than 'fix' it.

Says he who uses a Mageseeker over an ELB.
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