Team Rocket vrs. Dagoba (in General)


AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] October 13 2009 4:07 PM EDT

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Outside of an occasional early double hit (at least that's my guess), Nem and I are finally at the point folks have theorized could happen where we each beat each other. This is lame.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] October 13 2009 4:09 PM EDT

Called it!

Tyriel [123456789] October 13 2009 4:11 PM EDT

Isn't the Exbow just wonderful?

At least, I assume that's why it's working the way it is, since the defender normally has the advantage but attacker *xbows work first.

{WW]Nayab [Cult of the Valaraukar] October 13 2009 4:15 PM EDT

Thats my guess Tyriel.
When Novice attacks his tank gets an attack in at full strength then gets nerfed by the Exbow.
When Nem attacks the tank gets hit by the exbow than attacks generally giving poor damage.
This has happened to other people too.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] October 13 2009 4:17 PM EDT

Every so often I get unlucky and don't do enough damage to fully drain him quick enough. That's where the occasional double hits come from. With a bit more x it would completely become a win for whoever is attacking.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] October 13 2009 4:19 PM EDT

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This is what my side looks like

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] October 13 2009 4:37 PM EDT



This is my side of ranged. At least the part that is relevant. I have to take out your tank by the end of round 2 or else I am not left with enough str to win. Some times I do enough to take out both PL and tank in the first round of ranged.

QBsutekh137 October 13 2009 4:49 PM EDT

Yeah, I totally see it now! Binary dynamics ARE more fun! Who-oo!

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] October 13 2009 4:57 PM EDT

An interesting side note.. 70m worth of dbs makes this an instant non-issue.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] October 13 2009 4:59 PM EDT

hmm I take that back, on the first fight I saw no hits... however subsequent fights I'm still seeing a single hit more often than not.

I think reducing base to hit might just be the next step...

{Wookie}-Jir.Vr- October 13 2009 5:03 PM EDT

I don't think reducing the base to hit will accomplish anything other than making the exbow completely useless. The drain just needs to be put into proper proportions.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] October 13 2009 5:06 PM EDT

Which would be? That point could be argued to death...

Reducing base to hit allows tanks who want to avoid being drained to wear dbs and have them actually work.

I think adjustments to the ex's drain will never satisfy any of the people involved.

{Wookie}-Jir.Vr- October 13 2009 5:20 PM EDT

Reducing the base to hit will just allow exbow hits to be completely avoided with high DB investment. Suggesting such a change is simply suggesting the exbow's dynamic should be hit=win/miss=lose, which is currently is, so it fixes nothing. In fact it completely ruins the exbow as it forces exbow users to play the USD game with heavy tanks. If you look at the current lineup of heavy tanks that's a losing battle.

I think even people like Ranger would be against such a change, in favor of making the exbow function at a REAL level.

The goal would be to make the exbow LESS of a hit/miss win/lose dynamic. Not more.

QBRanger October 13 2009 5:24 PM EDT

"Reducing base to hit allows tanks who want to avoid being drained to wear dbs and have them actually work. "

And that is bad how? Making DBs actually work vs this weapon? Having the dex advantage mean something? As opposed to tanks that want to use EBs, the other tank option, for more dex/skills.

"I think adjustments to the ex's drain will never satisfy any of the people involved. "

Please tell me again why having the drain be more on a scale like AMF or capped at 50% per hit would be so bad. You reduce a tanks damage while not completely nerfing it.

If people wish to have exbow wars, like the one here, let them go at it. But let the regular tanks have a chance also.

Are we at the point where the only way to beat an exbow is with another?

That is the worst of all scenarios.

QBsutekh137 October 13 2009 5:36 PM EDT

Agreed, this thread exemplifies a lot of what is being discussed on other threads (and previous ones).

I'm not sure why the redux on all this for so many folks is: "It's too hard to balance, so either leave it alone or remove it completely. Um, CB is FULL of delicate balances that Jonathan has been tweaking for the last seven years. Why on earth would this issue suddenly be too hard to deal with?

It can be tweaked, and plenty of ideas on how to do so have been put forward. Keep telling yourself, "the number line is continuous, the number line is continuous..."

QBJohnnywas October 13 2009 5:37 PM EDT

You're going to have to cap the total drain done in a battle. Otherwise this 'problem' will never go away.

If I can't do more than a 50% drain per strike or round, then I'll just make sure I'm not going to miss. Hello PTH. Costly but worth it. Even with a per round cap you're still going to be able to do some serious hit to your opponent's strength.

Reduce the amount of drain per X and at some point you'll get somebody investing huge amounts of cash and we're back right here. Maybe less complaints because of the cash involved, but...additionally if Jon ever did give us a ranged salvage yard...how good do you think a 400 mill exbow is going to be?

If you don't want it to be able to drain a tank's strength away completely in 1, 2 , 3, 4 hits then don't let it drain a tank's strength away completely. I don't know why anyone is thinking of anything else.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] October 13 2009 5:55 PM EDT

I think there have been plenty of examples of ways to lessen or eliminate the effects of the ex, but I agree there should be more.

I'm against hard caps because they'll swing things back the other way, where the ex isn't capable of countering super powered ranged. An AMF Style system (where it's easy to lower STR by half, but hard to cut it by 60%, and nearly impossible to cut it by 80%) has the same issue, the exbow will cease to be an effective counter.

Maybe treating the symptoms with the ex isn't going to work, time to solve the problem and undo the failure that the most recent series of ranged changes have become...

QBJohnnywas October 13 2009 6:07 PM EDT

I was going to write some long essay in response there. I'll drop it in favour of saying: Yes, if the exbow is simply a solution to a problem then we should look at the problem.

QBsutekh137 October 13 2009 6:10 PM EDT

JW, saying, "I'll just invest more in PTH then" is like saying, "I'm not doing enough damage, so I'll just train STR, up my weapon, you know, um, I'll play the game. I'll do a bunch of different things that, combined, will give me a slight edge over certain opponents and let me beat them."

That's what the game is. A little here and a little there. Not total foil here, total unbeatable aspect there. If it takes you more hits, that means more rounds. If you up your PTH, folks will up their gear, too. That's called playing the game. That's exactly what I am asking for.

Remember, Ranger's biggest point (at least seemed big to me) was that this is being done with a 60 million-dollar weapon. That would have been like me only investing 20% of my MPR (instead of 60) into DM and still being able to nuke every GA in the game. If the exbow gets changed and you up yours to make it worth 300 million, Ranger will be the LAST guy complaining if that beats him. Same for me.

I can safely say I am 100% unable to understand why anyone is "thinking anything else" in that regard. Like I have said in previous posts, it is as if everyone has forgotten what a wonderful game of growth, tactics, and nuance this game can be, and would rather have there be red, green, and blue buttons, each of which beats the next color 'round, no questions asked.

{Wookie}-Jir.Vr- October 13 2009 6:15 PM EDT

Are we at the point where the only way to beat an exbow is with another?

That is the worst of all scenarios.

--QBRanger, 5:24 PM EDT

There are lots of ways to counter the exbow. Just because you don't like the answers, doesn't mean they aren't viable answers. I've had no problems against exbow users personally ^^.

QBRanger October 13 2009 6:15 PM EDT

"Remember, Ranger's biggest point (at least seemed big to me) was that this is being done with a 60 million-dollar weapon. That would have been like me only investing 20% of my MPR (instead of 60) into DM and still being able to nuke every GA in the game. If the exbow gets changed and you up yours to make it worth 300 million, Ranger will be the LAST guy complaining if that beats him. Same for me."

Word up!

"An AMF Style system (where it's easy to lower STR by half, but hard to cut it by 60%, and nearly impossible to cut it by 80%) has the same issue, the exbow will cease to be an effective counter. "

I really disagree with that statement. My tank with 500k strength does 400k damage a hit with a 300M NW ELB. If that is not enough damage reduction from an exbow, then you should not be able to win. Certainly not drain 100+% and have my character sit there doing nothing. That alone is so wrong.

BTW: I get toasted by ROS/GA characters. Aside from a little "GA is a bit overpowered" here and there, do you see me railing on it? NO! Why? since it takes a commitment to actually get a character to that level. Something that a 60M exbow can do easily.

QBRanger October 13 2009 6:17 PM EDT

O please Jir,

You use a Rune of Balrog Flame. Which lets you invest in the exbow and not worry about having a real attack.

So the way to counter the exbow is not to play a tank? So the ToA tank is not a viable strat anymore?

C'mon now. Now it seems your advocating this to keep your RBF/exbow strat intact.

QBJohnnywas October 13 2009 6:19 PM EDT

Ranger, all things aside, which RoS/GA char 'toasts' you?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] October 13 2009 6:23 PM EDT

Yay for faux simultanious battles and drains done by damage inflicted versus damage draining weapons. ;)

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] October 13 2009 6:23 PM EDT

400k x 4 hits a round (against almost everyone I imagine) and you're looking at 1.6m damage a round... that's enough to take out many teams, even at the level we're talking about. This alone should be evidence enough of why it's not enough just to cut STR by 75%.

{Wookie}-Jir.Vr- October 13 2009 6:25 PM EDT

Why would I care about my current strat? I'm moving to a completely different character, and trying to sell my exbow... *sigh*

Any combination of EC/HP/DEX/DBS/ToE/AC I find to be very nice counters to the Exbow.

Zenai October 13 2009 6:54 PM EDT

This was supposed to be a game of soft counters as stated by Jon Himself, the Exbow is not a soft counter by any means and everyone involved whether you like it or not have to admit it is NOT a soft counter. Nothing that hits 1 Time and completely shuts down anything is a soft counter.

An Archer has to put in Major NW on their Ranged Weapon/Gear and train the crap out of their Stats. With the ExBow it is Minimal investment and minimal Stat training barnone so not one person hand me this crap about it or it's brother the AxBow being a soft freaking counter I just will not accept it period.

Ranger changed his Strat and Pumped his HP since the ExBow was supposed to be HP dependent Drain......nope he still gets drained. I figured if I get my Str high enough the Exbow wouldn't be able to do me in.....fat chance even with 16.1 Mil Str, 5.2 Mil HP, and 8.4 Mil Dex with +180 DBs I still get Hit and STIL get drained.............
to -3 FREAKING MIL

From 16.1 Mil to -3 Mil is 19.1 Mil of Drain in 1 Shot and this is just hunky dory in most people's books ARE YOU SERIOUS?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

Quick someone make me a MageXBow where I can Drain their DD/EO/ED in one shot and watch the Fireworks start, how about I get a Weapon of any kind for that matter that will Nerf an entire Strat in one Blow in any way and see how the masses react.

They will band together and petition Jon to either kill it with fire or to Fix it because something is definitely wrong with something Binary in a system that is supposed to be based on Soft Counters.

QBsutekh137 October 13 2009 6:57 PM EDT

And Ranger thought I was summing things up nicely...wow, well stated, Z.

(sorry for the blatant "me too!" post, but I feel like I've been having a hard time putting my finger on why the exbow just _feels_ wrong...this does it.)

GnuUzir October 13 2009 7:26 PM EDT

Also who abbreviates versus vrs.?

Come on people everyone knows it is vs.

=P

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] October 13 2009 7:27 PM EDT

arg... I tend to use v sans any dots or arrs or esses figures I try to church it up and get schooled

QBRanger October 13 2009 7:51 PM EDT

"400k x 4 hits a round (against almost everyone I imagine) and you're looking at 1.6m damage a round"

Hardly enough when most people I fight have over 10M HP combined. Or fight me.

At 1.6M a round that takes me over 6 rounds of shooting.

That should be more than enough damage reduction, esp when facing a x25k elb.

You seriously think a 50-100M weapon should do more????

Brakke Bres [Ow man] October 13 2009 8:01 PM EDT

Off topic, you guys complain about archery all the time and how it takes so much XP away and skill slot. What if the gloves of mercy would give archery per enchantment point?? Would you guys switch from belegs to them?

{Wookie}-Jir.Vr- October 13 2009 8:01 PM EDT

The biggest problem with your argument Zenai, is you're trying to counter the exbow with more str which will not help you at all. It's all ratios, the same % of your STR is going to be drained down from 700000m STR or 1m STR. So your extra str means absolutely NOTHING in regards to the exbow's drain.

Against Vectoidz.

After an EC drain of 3,984,806, His tank's dex is at 581,471. Compared to my 1,000,000 dex, I have a CTH of 64% after his DBS. I'm winning almost 70% of the fights.

Here is how the Exbow drain pans out. Each hit is the first hit in a unique fight, followed by how much damage on average he is still doing to me.

For example in the first fight, I hit him for 170k damage, and from that round on, he is doing 600ish damage a hit, or a little under 2% of his overall HP.
(I've arranged the fights in order of most damage done, to least)

B Fold hit The Supervisor with A Bolt of Nether [170138] = Full drain /600 dmg a hit

B Fold shot The Supervisor with A Bolt of Nether [164680] = Full

B Fold shot The Supervisor with A Bolt of Nether [160995] = Full

B Fold hit The Supervisor with A Bolt of Nether [154791] = 300k

B Fold hit The Supervisor with A Bolt of Nether [148193] = 600k

B Fold shot The Supervisor with A Bolt of Nether [145615] = 600k

B Fold shot The Supervisor with A Bolt of Nether [142757] = 700k

B Fold hit The Supervisor with A Bolt of Nether [141337] = 700k

B Fold hit The Supervisor with A Bolt of Nether [139500] = 700k

B Fold shot The Supervisor with A Bolt of Nether [118934] = 1.3m

B Fold shot The Supervisor with A Bolt of Nether [101451] = 1.3m

B Fold hit The Supervisor with A Bolt of Nether [107261] = 1.3m

B Fold shot The Supervisor with A Bolt of Nether [100522] = 1.4m

{Wookie}-Jir.Vr- October 13 2009 8:05 PM EDT

Based on those numbers you can easily see the importance of AC (damage reduction) as a few thousand damage can be the difference of a full drain in one hit, and ... not so much.

Look at the jump from 700k a hit (5 hits mind you) to 1.3m a hit. 20k damage output is the difference of 3 million damage incoming. Scary.

Joel October 13 2009 8:14 PM EDT

About Dex advantage. I have an idea about how to make dex worth more.
I hope I don't sound presumptuous, submitting an idea when I have less than a month of play-time here.
Here's my idea: If you have a dex. disadvantage, then, the + enchantments on your weapons should have their effect reduced, in addition to the normal penalties to the chance to hit. In addition to this, have DBs +'s have a reduced effect when against opponents that have a dex. advantage.
I've noticed at around my level that I can't beat people that have more dex than me. So, if I want to beat them, i have to sacrifice putting exp. into my HP and DM and start pumping up my dex. I prefer not to though, because I'm concentrating on beating a smaller population of opponents. I have a feeling about this game: if you want to beat more opponents then you have to be overall weaker against many other opponents. I think thats how it should work in a strategy game. If you make a strat to beat more opponents, then, you'll be able to beat more 'types' of opponents but they will be weaker compared to the opponents you're used to beating with your previously concentrated strategy.
This is due to the 'Jack-of-all-trades-Master-of-none' general rule. Your overall exp. will be diluted into other things, so, you won't be able to beat stronger opponents as easily. CB$ should be involved, but it shouldn't be able to make strategic use of exp. so much less important.
And thats all I have to say about that.

QBsutekh137 October 13 2009 8:46 PM EDT

Thanks, Forrest. *smile*

Joel, I think the stuff does run together -- a big dex gap WILL eat into + (plus-to-hit, pth) It all becomes what has been coined as "chance to hit", or "cth". Sorry, the terms get thrown around a lot.

But you are dead on balls accurate in that this issue CAN be resolved in that continuum. It's the real number line, folks. Call it PTH. Call it CTH. Doesn't matter. Get the ratios right.

"jack of all trades, etc..." Well said, Joel. I don't blatantly side with Ranger often, but he's bested me enough and made enough sense (and when he doesn't, I call him out) on this that the exbow doesn't feel right yo him on this front. It's just too much. And listen, folks. It's not because A or B or C is beating Ranger, or that he can't beat D or E or F. Think what you want about the man, but he's got a feel for the game. He could bould a 200 million NW exbow _right_ _now_ if he wanted to.

So could SHD

So could Freed.

So could I.

And that's exactly why there's a problem.

Don't apologize for your newness here, Joel. Embrace it. I find it positively refreshing.

Zenai October 13 2009 9:25 PM EDT

ok Jir re-read my post even Ranger with Better AC and a Ton more HP STILL gets drained. I simply stated my idea and it turned out wrong.....it happens sometimes....lol But Rangers example has unfortunately proven you wrong in this aspect. He has 14 Mil HP and better AC than I do and he still goes down. Sorry bro your defense of the weapon has fallen through, it has no ground to stand on as mine idea did not.

Joel that was a very well thought out idea coming from a New Player.......that is a very good thing!

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] October 13 2009 9:28 PM EDT

i have been saying for a while now that dex advantage works well but dex disadvantage should work in the same way. i would love to see that implemented and then see if this is even an issue any longer.

in effect, if you have more dex as an attacker than the defender you now get more hits added. if you have less dex as the attacker than the defender i think it should work the other way and be one of the few things that will eat into bth.

QBRanger October 13 2009 9:31 PM EDT

Dude,

It is nice to see we do agree there currently is a problem with the exbow.

There are many solutions or possible ones. Yours may be the best one yet. I hope Jon or NS are listening.

QBsutekh137 October 13 2009 10:18 PM EDT

Look at this, we've got like, nearly eight people agreeing, from various CB generations and current level players. I'd make that Navy Seal fingers-in-eyes-to-your-fingers-in-eyes gesture, but yeah, you know....I already went too far.

Zenai October 13 2009 10:22 PM EDT

Time for a New thread then Gentlemen. This should be explained out in detail what it should be and how it should go. Since this is dudemus' idea I think he should start the thread. Time to go for Gold I would think.
This thread is closed to new posts. However, you are welcome to reference it from a new thread; link this with the html <a href="/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002tnT">Team Rocket vrs. Dagoba</a>