Another Exbow Thread (in General)


{WW]Nayab [Cult of the Valaraukar] October 17 2009 4:47 PM EDT

This is an idea thread so try and avoid debates as best you can.

My idea for the Ex and Axbow is similar to ones i have said before.

Here is my idea for the Exbow drain.
Exbow Minion Strength/Opponents Strength x Base damage x Damage Dealt.

E.g. Your minion has 1mil strength and theirs has 2mil. You deal 80k damage
1mil/2mil x 4 x 80k
.5 x 4 x 80k
2 x 80k
160k strength drained

Axbow drain would be
Axbow Minion Strength/Opponents Dexterity x Base Damage x Damage Dealt
using the same example
E.g. Your minion has 1mil strength and theirs has 500k dexterity. You deal 80k damage.
1mi/500k x 4 x 80k
2 x 4 x 80k
8 x 80k
640k dexterity drained.

The Base damage referred to in this is [4x125] (+20)
That way if the base damage was increased, the drain would increase dramatically.

Suggestions?

Lord Bob October 17 2009 4:51 PM EDT

It's not bad.

Zenai October 17 2009 4:54 PM EDT

I would Up the Damage and Lower the Drain since higher up it would still be totally devastating to Archers and Tanks. Just my thoughts on it.

Lord Bob October 17 2009 5:05 PM EDT

One flaw I just thought of: after every successive round, opponent strength would be lower, so the next drain would be significantly higher.

.. and so on.
... and so on.

After 3 rounds of ranged, we're right back to where we started with it. Maybe even worse.

{WW]Nayab [Cult of the Valaraukar] October 17 2009 5:12 PM EDT

Well how about a real game context then.
Zenai was at one stage being attacked by Nem's minion Meowth on Team Rocket.
Meowth's strength is 3.5mil while Zens Strength is 16,314,340 and Meowth would do around 300k damage a hit. That put Zens strength into negatives.

In this system the drain would be as follows.
3,500,000/16,314,340 x 4 x 300k
0.2145 x 4 x 300k
257,442 Strength would be drained.
Would probably have to put a minimum cap of 0.5 when determining strength difference.

With the cap the result would be 600k drained.

{WW]Nayab [Cult of the Valaraukar] October 17 2009 5:15 PM EDT

Considering my real game example, to make this viable would require the drain to be based on both minions strength after EDs and EOs and to upgrade the base damage of the enforcers and assassins crossbows to 5 from 4.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] October 17 2009 5:22 PM EDT

A problem with this is it becomes basically useless. If I drained only 600k in 1 hit I could shoot him well over 10 times and the result would be that his damage drops maybe 15-20% by the end. In the mean time my chances of getting 10% hits are 0 and he will kill me anyways within 4 rounds or so.

{WW]Nayab [Cult of the Valaraukar] October 17 2009 5:32 PM EDT

Nem, whats the x on your exbow?
If anyone has a SoD of similar x to Nem's exbow can they give it to him so we can see the damage difference between the exbow and the SoD?
I want to know so that we have a base line for what an increase in exbow damage would be. It will allow me to recalculate and determine whether this drain idea would work after an increase to damage.

Lord Bob October 17 2009 5:42 PM EDT

"A problem with this is it becomes basically useless."

I don't think anyone read my last post.

Under this system, the crossbows gradually become more powerful after each successive hit. You might do a "little" 600k drain in the first round, then a bit more in the next, then a lot more in the next, then a LOT more in the next, and then a ton in round five.

{WW]Nayab [Cult of the Valaraukar] October 17 2009 5:45 PM EDT

LB, he was replying to my "standard drain based after EDs and EOs"

Wraithlin October 17 2009 5:57 PM EDT

but that's just it Lord Bob, in the real example it would still suck on round 5. 260k from 16 mil is basically nothing.

Wraithlin October 17 2009 6:02 PM EDT

Round 1 - 3,500,000/16,314,340 x 4 x 300k
0.2145 x 4 x 300k
257,442 Strength would be drained.

Round 2 - 3.5 mil/16,056,898 x 4 x 300k
0.2179 x 4 x 300k
261,569 Strength would be drained.

Not a huge increase.

Lord Bob October 17 2009 6:05 PM EDT

I wrote a short script for this.
Using my strength, and assuming an opponent with a strength of 4,000,000 and an average damage of 80,000, this is what I got:

Round 1
Strength: 3393342 / 4000000
Drain: 271467
Total Drain: 271467
Post Drain Strength: 3728533
####################################
Round 2
Strength: 3393342 / 3728533
Drain: 291232
Total Drain: 562699
Post Drain Strength: 3437301
####################################
Round 3
Strength: 3393342 / 3437301
Drain: 315907
Total Drain: 878606
Post Drain Strength: 3121394
####################################
Round 4
Strength: 3393342 / 3121394
Drain: 347879
Total Drain: 1226485
Post Drain Strength: 2773515
####################################
Round 5
Strength: 3393342 / 2773515
Drain: 391513
Total Drain: 1617998
Post Drain Strength: 2382002
####################################

So assuming a single hit in all five rounds (no HoC, no double hits), strength almost halves after the end of ranged.

Offensive damage reduction? Check.
Doesn't neuter tanks completely? Check.
Looks fine to me.

Lord Bob October 17 2009 6:07 PM EDT

"but that's just it Lord Bob, in the real example it would still suck on round 5. 260k from 16 mil is basically nothing. "

3,500,000 strength vs. 16,314,340 should fail hard.

Lord Bob October 17 2009 6:15 PM EDT

Also, I think the Axbow should be user Dex / opponent Dex rather than strength. Otherwise, it's fine working the same.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] October 17 2009 6:22 PM EDT

LB, after focusing all that amount into the exbow. After 5 shots you have just managed to get the same reduction of an SoC but this is only after all the rounds of ranged. An SoC would be far far cheaper and more effective all around than an exbow that worked like that. Not to mention that the SoC doesn't require any stat investment such as str or dex to work. Maybe you can see my point that it would be absolutely useless to invest in a sub-par item that the exbow would then be.

Lord Bob October 17 2009 6:27 PM EDT

If your argument here is "the exbow needs to wipe out tank's strength entirely" than we are never going to agree. If you're worried about ranged, suggest a direct counter to ranged damage or a long bow/Hal nerf. Do not suggest that strength should be easily reduced to 0.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] October 17 2009 6:31 PM EDT

I am not saying that damage needs to easily be reduced to 0, but with the way str works its only when you start to drastically reduce str does damage start to get reduced. Even if you cut their str to 1/4 of what it was that only reduces their damage by half.

{WW]Nayab [Cult of the Valaraukar] October 17 2009 6:43 PM EDT

Well if you want a way to stop ranged physical damage, here is my suggestion from a few weeks ago.

Deflection
Its effect will work the same way as archery does except based on dex rather than str.
Gives a percentage chance to deflect arrows shot at the minion equal to [(skill level/2 + minion dex x skill effect)/ opposing minions dex] x 100%.
Deflected arrows would deal damage equal to [original dmg x (100% - percent chance of defection)]
For each consecutive hit in the same round, damage deflected is reduced by 1/4 the % reduction of the previous hit.

example: I have a minion with Deflection trained at 300k and 500k dex.
I get attacked by an archer dealing 400k damage a hit with 1mil dex
He hits me 3 times. (really large weapon +)
Round 1
Hit 1
[(200k/2 + 700k)/ 1mil dex] x 100% = 80%
400k x 80% = 80k damage dealt
Hit 2
[(200k/2 + 700k)/ 1mil dex] x 100% = 80%
400k x (80% x 3/4) = 160k damage dealt
80% x 3/4 = 60%
Hit 3
[(200k/2 + 700k)/ 1mil dex] x 100% = 80%
400k x (60% x 3/4) = 220k damage dealt
60% x 3/4 = 45%

460k damage taken instead of 1.2mil

Lord Bob October 17 2009 6:52 PM EDT

Ranged counter:
Elven Shield: Base AC 3.
~1% ranged weapon reduction for each +.

Basically a Mage Shield against archers, except it gives a small bit of AC.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] October 17 2009 6:59 PM EDT

Yo. I suggested one of those when Power Shields became a category. ;)

I think I caled it Inertia Shield to go with the Mage Shield. ;)

Lord Bob October 17 2009 7:37 PM EDT

I just called it an Elven Shield to get another elven item. After a shield, all we need is headgear for a full set.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] October 17 2009 7:46 PM EDT

And Pants. ;)

BluBBen October 18 2009 10:47 AM EDT

/me wants to see Elven jockstrap!

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] October 18 2009 10:55 AM EDT

as i have stated in all of the other "strength as factor" exbow threads, i do not like anything that further encourages tanks to focus on strength. strength already plays too much role and the trend is to train much more and increase damage at the expense of dexterity.

since dexterity doesn't mean much these days, the focus in my mind should be on encouraging dex as more of a counter. in other words, make dex mean more!

also, if the exbow is truly the counter to massive physical damage caused by weapons boosted to extreme amounts as we theorize, how likely is jon to make the counter based on strength further encouraging high damage and thus exacerbating the problem itself while further neutering the counter?

QBRanger October 18 2009 11:34 AM EDT

But we do not want to make it so dexterity is insta win.

Someone having a high dexterity with high DBs being immune to getting hit.

The problem is the exbow is right now too powerful for 1 hit. We stop the exbow from hitting once, or make it possible for it to be avoided, then we change the whole missile/melee attack system.

I would rather we just fix what is broken in the first place that makes the exbow necessary.

Seems strange to me that the 2 top characters followed by the 2 top archers are exbow users using 100M or less weapons. While the top archers are using ELBs over 300M. But the exbow users are way above the rest of CB in score. 1M or more above.

And 2 of the top archers, Z and myself get eaten up by ROS characters. SHD less due to his massive DM. For which he suffers vs me and Z due to less dexterity. That is true rock/paper/scissors.

The exbow is not anything with R/P/S. But rather hit=win, misses=loss.
JW is a bit different as he is using his tattoo slot for the woefully underpowered ToE. Likely due to his lower tattoo size when the ToE is somewhat more useful.

The exbow is just plain wrong for a game like CB. And quite discouraging to play against. Not that it leads to great strategy, but rather a cheapened way to beat tanks.

Just my point of view.

Zenai October 18 2009 11:39 AM EDT

"Ranged counter:
Elven Shield: Base AC 3.
~1% ranged weapon reduction for each +.

Basically a Mage Shield against archers, except it gives a small bit of AC. "

Yup and you would see every Archer Sporting one just like DBs/EBs.....lol

"as i have stated in all of the other "strength as factor" exbow threads, i do not like anything that further encourages tanks to focus on strength. strength already plays too much role and the trend is to train much more and increase damage at the expense of dexterity."

I have not trained more Strength or Dex, My ToA pumped it up to where it is now. Actually my STR and Dex is 5,010,000. I have Pumped my HP to 5,960,000.

"since dexterity doesn't mean much these days, the focus in my mind should be on encouraging dex as more of a counter. in other words, make dex mean more!"

I do agree, and have agreed with this since the first time you said it.

"also, if the exbow is truly the counter to massive physical damage caused by weapons boosted to extreme amounts as we theorize, how likely is jon to make the counter based on strength further encouraging high damage and thus exacerbating the problem itself while further neutering the counter? "

I agree with your statement there dudemus. I think it can be a great balance to the system if it was not Binary to MOST Str Based Minion Types. Having a progressive return of Str like Nem said in the other thread would be a great start to balancing this weapon. I do think that more should be going on here though, a lower Drain % on an overall per shot, give it a higher damage output and a higher base CTH. This I could deal with and be at peace with even if I still lose to it because in this I still have a Chance at a fight without stepping out of the Archer position to do it.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] October 18 2009 11:48 AM EDT

"But we do not want to make it so dexterity is insta win."

i do not support dexterity becoming the end all stat either, but surely we can find more balance than what we have now.

QBRanger October 18 2009 12:25 PM EDT

But what really is so out of balance that the exbow is needed?

Archers have the Jiggy and RoS and a tattoo designed just to stop their damage type.

Why is the exbow really needed?

If it is damage of the elb, then lower it a bit. If it is 400M NW elb, then modify ENC. Or remove the 6 exception.

But what really is so broken that we need the exbow?

And in the past, people using the exbow had to find another method of attack. Now they just slap on the RBF and viola, almost unbeatable character.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] October 18 2009 12:33 PM EDT

"But what really is so broken that we need the exbow?"

as i stated in the other thread, i believe it is the change from a cost curve model to linear in regards to damage modifier of weapons. if the damage of elbs is lowered, with the fixed cost more money can just be put into them and we will get right back to where we are minus the counter (exbow) if it was toned down as part of the weapon damage reduction.

the cost curve was a soft cap. the linear cost has no soft cap and thus needs the counter of some sort. it seems out of whack now due to the extreme net worth in the weapons being countered by lesser net worth of the counter, but is that due to the extreme net worth in the weapons or the binary nature of the counter or the lack of a soft cap for net worth put into damage mods.

if damage were more fixed at the top end, in effect the return of a soft cap through a curve model, then the counters could be toned down as well or even made less binary. all of this is still just conjecture until we hear otherwise, but it is the best i have come up with to explain where we are.

{WW]Nayab [Cult of the Valaraukar] October 18 2009 5:48 PM EDT

You want a dex counter version, i will give you one.

Exbow drain.
(Exbow Minion Str + 1/2 Minion Dex)/(1/2 Opponents Str+Opponent dex) x Base damage x Damage Dealt.

E.g. Your minion has 1mil strength and 250k dex and theirs has 2mil str 500k dex. You deal 80k damage
(1mil + 125k)/(1mil + 500k) x 4 x 80k
.75 x 4 x 80k
3 x 80k
240k strength drained

Axbow drain would be
(1/2 Axbow Minion Str + Minion Dex)/(3/4 Opponents Str+ 1/2 Opponent dex) x Base Damage x Damage Dealt
using the same example
E.g. Your minion has 1mil strength and 250k dex and theirs has 2mil str 500k dex. You deal 80k damage.
1mil +250k/750k+250k x 4 x 80k
1.25 x 4 x 80k
5 x 80k
400k dexterity drained.

While it looks similar, look closely for the differences.

{WW]Nayab [Cult of the Valaraukar] October 18 2009 5:55 PM EDT

I will redo the real game context with the new formula.
Zenai was at one stage being attacked by Nem's minion Meowth on Team Rocket.
Meowth's strength is 3.5mil and dex is 4.11mil. Zens Strength is 16,314,340 and dex 8,531,349. Meowth would do around 300k damage a hit. That currently puts Zens strength into negatives.

In this system the drain would be as follows.
3,500,000+ 2,055,000/8,157,170 + 8,531,349 x 4 x 300k
0.3329 x 4 x 300k
399,436 Strength would be drained.
Would probably have to put a minimum cap of 0.5 when determining strength difference.

With the cap the result would be 600k drained.

I think i am gonna give up now.

{WW]Nayab [Cult of the Valaraukar] October 18 2009 7:14 PM EDT

I have done some refinement and have found a formula that doesn't give a capped drain!

Exbow drain.
(2 x Exbow Minion Str + 1/2 Minion Dex)/(1/2 x Opponents Str + 3/4 x Opponent dex) x Base damage x Damage Dealt.

E.g. Your minion has 1mil strength and 250k dex and theirs has 2mil str 500k dex. You deal 80k damage
(2mil + 125k)/(1mil + 375k) x 4 x 80k
1.545 x 4 x 80k
6.182 x 80k
494,545 strength drained

Axbow drain would be
(1/2 Axbow Minion Str + 2 x Minion Dex)/(3/4 x Opponents Str+ 1/2 x Opponent dex) x Base Damage x Damage Dealt
using the same example
E.g. Your minion has 1mil strength and 250k dex and theirs has 2mil str 500k dex. You deal 80k damage.
500k +500k/1.5mil+250k x 4 x 80k
.57 x 4 x 80k
2.29 x 80k
182,857 dexterity drained.

Real game context.
Zenai was at one stage being attacked by Nem's minion Meowth on Team Rocket.
Meowth's strength is 3.5mil and dex is 4.11mil. Zens Strength is 16,314,340 and dex 8,531,349. Meowth would do around 300k damage a hit. That currently puts Zens strength into negatives.

In this system the drain would be as follows.
7,000,000+ 2,055,000/8,157,170 + 6,398,511 x 4 x 300k
0.622 x 4 x 300k
2.488 x 300k
746,512 Strength would be drained.

If it was an axbow the drain to dex would be.
1,750,000 + 8,220,000/ 12,235,755 + 4,265,675 x 4 x 300k
.604 x 4 x 300k
2.417 x 300k = 725,028 dex drained.

If anyone has any other examples i can use, please CM me or post in this thread.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] October 18 2009 7:21 PM EDT

Just 2 comments about that stuff. 1 I wish I could see putting out 300k damage but against no defenses I could maybe hit 200k or so max. and 2 If I were draining 700k per hit I might as well switch over to a wall because it would be so much cheaper, require far less exp investment and far far more effective.

{WW]Nayab [Cult of the Valaraukar] October 18 2009 7:27 PM EDT

That is against a ToA tank, getting single shot drains wasn't fair in the first place. If you really wanted to beat him, you would use a ToA of your own.

Zenai October 18 2009 7:55 PM EDT

"That is against a ToA tank, getting single shot drains wasn't fair in the first place. If you really wanted to beat him, you would use a ToA of your own."

Ok I'm not sure how fair that comment was Whitewolf. Now it is unfair for any weapon to take out ANY strat with one shot.

It is also unfair to tell a person what you just did. I would not want to change my strat to a RoBF one to beat it he shouldn't have to change his to a ToA one to beat mine.

If you were coming from the standpoint that it is a broken weapon and that no one should use it. Well then I would agree at least until it was balanced for everyone involved.

{WW]Nayab [Cult of the Valaraukar] October 18 2009 8:02 PM EDT

Real game context.

Zenai was at one stage being attacked by Nem's minion Meowth on Team Rocket.
Meowth's strength is 3.5mil and dex is 4.11mil. Zens Strength is 16,314,340 and dex 8,531,349. Meowth would do around 300k damage a hit. That currently puts Zens strength into negatives.
Zenai uses The War Wizard Gift lvl 10,263,849 (ToA) on his archer.
Without it his Strength and dex are 5,010,000 and 5,020,00 respectively. His Tat therefore gives him 11,304,340 strength and 3,511,349 dex.
If he didn't have the ToA the drains would be as follows
Exbow
7,000,000+ 2,055,000/2,505000 + 3,765,000 x 4 x 300k
1.444 x 4 x 300k
5.777 x 300k
1,733,014 Strength would be drained.

Axbow.
1,750,000 + 8,220,000/ 3,757,500 + 2,510,000 x 4 x 300k
1.591 x 4 x 300k
6.363 x 300k
2.417 x 300k
1,908,895 dex drained.


If Nem was using a ToA that was the same level Meowths stats would be 14,804,340 str and 7,621,349 dex. The damage would probably increase to 500k at least. the drain would be as follows. (be aware this is theorised not an exact result)

Exbow
29,608,680+ 3,810,675/8,157,170 + 6,398,511 x 4 x 500k
2.296 x 4 x 500k
9.184 x 500k
4,591,932 Strength would be drained.

Axbow.
7,402,170 + 15,242,698/ 12,235,755 + 4,265,675 x 4 x 500k
1.372 x 4 x 500k
5.489 x 500k
2,744,594 dex drained.

{WW]Nayab [Cult of the Valaraukar] October 18 2009 8:03 PM EDT

I'm sorry it appeared that way to you Zenai. Probably should have chosen my words better there.

Guardian October 18 2009 8:29 PM EDT

my Exbow is beeing forged till march 2010, i want a legendary Exbow

Zenai October 18 2009 8:49 PM EDT

Honestly I would like to see a few others that get beaten by the ExBow.

KW Fantastic.....
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