Home Grown Tattoo Size Journal (in General)

(Tattoo leveled from base 20 on a fresh character. never been swapped off. Minimal retraining on character)

MTL: 45,969
Tattoo size: 30,628

Tattoo is roughly 2/3rd of MTL.

I'm going to keep coming back to this from time to time. If my home grown tattoo stays at 66% of my MTL throughout the characters lifespan, I think I'll ask why our MTL is so big...

Max tattoo : 586,220
A Steel Familiar lvl 374,502

Started at lvl 20 a few weeks ago. Although, I had a handful of battles without it.

So we can insta up.

Your home grown tattoo most likely will not stay at 66% of your MTL throughout the characters lifespan. I predict it getting smaller and smaller as you grow.


Tattoos (level) grow at a slower pace than characters (MPR and thus MTL)

It should stay at 66%.

If it stays at the same percentage, it is growing slower...

slower than what? your character, true.


Your MTL already grows more slowly than your MPR, it's because of the exponential function. However your tattoo grows slower than your MTL also.

Even more correctly: a named tattoo grows slower than one's MTL. The theory behind it is that your tattoo will never outgrow your character this way.

Named Tattoo's don't grow any faster, they just act larger. ;)

I'm really only looking at this to see if the MTL grows at the same rate as a Tattoo.

IF it does, I'll then sk why we've got a MTL that 50% larger than a 'natural' tattoo you should have grown.

A Tattoo of Augmentation lvl 4,874,960

Max tattoo : 7,185,854

Home Grown only on one character from level 20

Member since March 8, 2009

MPR 2,913,480

Help any? I am sure it would be higher if I had a better NUB run.

Your Tattoo is about 68%, slightly larger than expected. Probably down to some retrains. ;)

It really sems like a homegrown Tattoo should always be 2/3rds of your MTL.

In which case, why do we have a MTL 50% larger than expectd for a natural tattoo? It only really promotes using oversized tats.

Max tat doesn't grow at a constant level.

One reason it's as high as it is to allow DD familiars to actually work, any attempts to lower it would render them useless.

Well if it was equal, no one would ever buy a tattoo unless they bought a character.

Not necessarily a bad thing, not necessarily desired either.

Yes GL I did have a couple retrains.

"Max tat doesn't grow at a constant level."

Yeah, that's what I wasn't sure about. But the examples above all seem to indicate it does.

MPR is a constant increase, as is Tattoo size. It doesn't make sense that MTL isn't...

MTL and tattoos grow at a constant rate based on the amount of experience you get. A tattoo grows at 2/3 of the MTL. I use comparable tattoo growths to gauge how fast I am growing compared with other top players.

Thanks Nem!

In that case I really do have to ask why it's so large.

Why is the MTL 50% higher than expected for a 'naturally' grown Tattoo?

PR / MPR : 9,402,432 / 4,963,320 Max tattoo : 14,544,923

Lowering max tat will break a huge portion of the game, I've explained it at least five times previously, but I'll attempt to do so again.

A DD familiar at near max tat should be comparable to a single minion of similar MPR in DD level (maybe less now without the AoF boost). Were max tat to be lowered significantly this would no longer be the case, and the DD familiars utility as a primary damage dealer would be gone.

Likewise for the RoBF and RoS, if the allowed level was cut in half they would be far less useful. The RoBF is already the slowest way to kill in game, further limiting it would make it a joke. The RoS couldn't hope to block DM users if it was half what the top allowable level is.

Tattoo's are supposed to be transferable, by nature they allow you to upgrade via insta's so you can maximize your power and make effective use of all the horrifying PR they add. I have to assume you've got something against the importance they play in the game, as I can't find any other reason for your continued targeting of them for nerfage.

I have wondered this also. My tat is 1.14 mil and my character is 895k MPR and my MTL is about 1.7 mill. I would rather keep my named Tat - I like it, but to be competitive, I really need to insta it every so often. (Not that I have money for that) But I have grown this one from scratch.

Nov, if that's the case (I'll look at that in a sec), then we could just tweak the amount trained by the DD tats (and others) upwards. They can all go over 100% XP anyway...

Lets assume that a DD Familiar is based on equivalnce to a 2 minion team Mage.

The minion in question having a conservative;

(50% XP Total)

HP: 25%
DD: 25%

XP Spread.

A DD Familiar at (the lower) MTL would then have;

(33% Total)

HP: 8.25%
DD: 33%

So more overall stats, and a larger DD, than a normal minion.

It only gets larger on a /4 minion team.

Only on a single minion Mage would a DD familiar need to be over MTL, and I'm sure they aren't balanced around single minion teams. ;)

Or have I got anything wrong here?

"Likewise for the RoBF and RoS, if the allowed level was cut in half they would be far less useful. The RoBF is already the slowest way to kill in game, further limiting it would make it a joke. The RoS couldn't hope to block DM users if it was half what the top allowable level is."

Thing is, I don't think anyone (not restarting...) is using a Tattoo above/at thier MTL level now. ;)

Sure they are, that's what insta's are for. In addition, cutting the MTL will limit how large N*B's can grow a tat. This was my argument against the cuts that have already been made to MTL.

If we're looking for making the bonuses work like "starting on Jan 1st 2005" (like they're currently set up), no user should ever have achieved a Tattoo higher than 2/3rds thier current MTL.

ok, one, last, time... tattoo's are transferable

This makes your last statement completely untrue.

Attack of the angry apostrophe!

I can't sell my tattoo because of this! Make it stop!

"ok, one, last, time... tattoo's are transferable

This makes your last statement completely untrue."

No it doesn't! ;)

Trading Tattoo's around to power boost them was stopped. It's not a mechanic Jon wanted.

Ideally, if everyone of us started on Jan 1st 2005, and never swapped our charcaters or retrained them, we would all have a Tattoo (as long as we were able to score one the moment we started fighting...) exatly 2/3rds of our MTL.

It's only due to people dropping out and giving/selling them to others, and the power swapping schenanigans of yester year, that we have Tattoo's larger.

Retraining also shifts the balance. Because people retrain more over time the tattoo slowly gets to a slightly better ratio.

So you're also against being able to sell tattoo's GL? Come on...

You've still not made your real point, why is this important?

How is having the MTL larger than a home grown tat hurting CB?

I'm not agianst selling/trading Tat's Nov.

Why it eating at me is that the current desgin is pushing people to get a tattoo larger than the game sohuld naturally have allowed you to get.

To work at full potential, you need a Tattoo at (or above..) your MTL.

With it 50% higher than natural, the game is yet again nudging people to ditch thier characters, as it's the only way to get a Tattoo larger than your Characters MTL.

And to keep doing this.

It also rewards thos in CB with the largest Tattoos.

If the current system is to continue, we need yet another 'bonus'. We need a Tattoo Bonus, that somehow lets you get your Tattoo up to your MTL. Without it being yet another 'restart' tax to get people to ditch their teams and make another.

"I'm not agianst selling/trading Tat's Nov."

"Why it eating at me is that the current desgin is pushing people to get a tattoo larger than the game sohuld naturally have allowed you to get."

These two quotes are in direct contradiction in my mind. If you're alright with people buying tats, why should it bother you that the game encourages it? The fact that someone who invests in a tat is markedly better than someone who does not seems perfectly sensible to me, and quite in line with everything else in CB.

Personally I still think the solution is RAISING the max tat, to allow larger tattoo's to be grown via the NCB and to further allow specialization. From what I've seen you're all for PR being a penalty to rewards, and with the heavy weighting on PR for tats near max tat (smaller you are in comparison to your tat, the more PR it adds) I'd think you'd be all for it.

If fairness is what you're after, lowering the max tat is the wrong way to go.

I'd be all for that, if there was some way to catch the larger tats.

It's like we need a seperate New Tattoo Bonus (groan) to allow freshly bought Tattoo's to be able to reach the 10 Mils of thier competitiors.

Raise the MTL, and the 10M ones grow (and actually grow faster, as the higher you are, the better rewards you get), as you're growing yours, and you can't catch up.

But it would be ok, if we had a change to PR like the one I've proposed to Weapon X.

Have a Tat as the current 2/3rd MTL, it adds some PR. Smaller (or no Tat) would add less, (maybe even lower your PR). And a massive Tat would add more PR.

That would be cool. ;)

But then We've got ENC to limit Massive NW items (or supposidly), we'd need ENC to limit Massive Uber Tattoo's dominating as well.

Or CB become Tattoo Blender (IF it isn't already! :P).

Tat PR already works like that

Tat's are the last thing that actually kinda qualifies as rare (rare meaning expensive to get, rather than actually rare). Anything that limits that is lame++. It should cost more than the NW of the tat for one in the top 10, I really hope that doesn't change.

On sliding scale or a fixed amount?

Still, we need an ENC variant for Tattoos. ;)

Especially if we raised MTL, and a new character strapped on an UBER familiar and went to town as ENC means nothing.

"It should cost more than the NW of the tat for one in the top 10"

Why? Tattoo NW is all Faux. IT's freely gotten. It's not baked into any rewards calculations, you just get gifted with it s you fight with a Tattoo.

I've never liked Tattoo's having NW like other items.

It's a decent ratio of semi-inflexible MPR to NW (obviously not as high as purchasable XP).

My understanding of near MTL tats effect on PR is that the closer they are to your MTL the more PR they add (I'm sure one of the numbers monkeys has a formula somewhere). So a tat twice as large will add more than double the PR the smaller one would.

Tattoo's aren't free, you sacrifice rewards by having all that PR. The BA we've bought to build them up isn't free. The vast amounts we've spent instaing them up certainly isn't "free"...

"Especially if we raised MTL, and a new character strapped on an UBER familiar and went to town as ENC means nothing."

First you forgot NCBers would do it in a heartbeat!
Second it would have to be a very good New Player for anyone to give that kind of Credit to them in the first place GL.....Very Very Very Very Very Very did I say Very? Very Very Good New Player....Very!

When I talked about raising the MTL, I was talking about raising it back to it previous level (maybe 15% higher than it is now) now eliminating the cap and bringing back the days when Mikel was a newbie and destroying the game with a FF and saved XP.

Personally, I like the mechanic of trading tattoos. For one, it only helps you out in the short term, as your character grows the tattoo approaches 66%. It's simply another thing besides weapons for people to spend big money on, and it's not cheap.

Basically, if you don't like USD, lower it, but I think this 66% ratio is a good balance.

Just for the record, I can make this very easy for you:

MTL is half the total XP on your team (including untrained) divided by 12.

Regulars tattoos grow at 2/3 the rate of MTL.
Lesser tattoos grow at 1/3 the rate of MTL.
It has been like that for as long as I have been around, and it's also most likely written down in the wiki too, so it's no secret.

"First you forgot NCBers would do it in a heartbeat!"

Exactly. ;)

"Tattoo's aren't free, you sacrifice rewards by having all that PR"

True, but Tattoo's let you fight higher, for better rewards. ;)

This is a balanced system. The MTL is in a place that allows good trading between the users in CB. That having a tat is a necessity is unsurprising as they give massive boosts to teams and can be sold for lots of money.
Why does this need to be changed?
The MTL allows the vets an advantage as they have taken the time to get their teams to the stage where they can wear an uber tat. You take away some of that MTL, they lose that advantage and weaken the magic side of CB more than anything else.

Max tattoo : 4,271,506
A Halidon Familiar lvl 3,727,643
MPR 1,921,735

Zenai October 20 8:09 PM EDT
Second it would have to be a very good New Player for anyone to give that kind of Credit to them in the first place GL.....Very Very Very Very Very Very did I say Very? Very Very Good New Player....Very!

You forgot to snipit this because of your statement of a New Player or NUB if you will could Strap on an Uber Tat.

*Shakes the Magic 8-Ball......results are* Not very likely at all!

AdminNightStrike October 20 9:40 PM EDT
Just for the record, I can make this very easy for you:

MTL is half the total XP on your team (including untrained) divided by 12.


^Pwned!

Like someone else told me it's up to the devs not us no matter what I said so no disrespect intended but discussion over bro. It is what it is for a reason and that is that.

"Tat's are the last thing that actually kinda qualifies as rare (rare meaning expensive to get, rather than actually rare). Anything that limits that is lame++. It should cost more than the NW of the tat for one in the top 10, I really hope that doesn't change."

I agree 100%!

Zen, or the kind of 'new' player that already has an account here?

Not that they exist at all.

QBGentlemanLoser
8:37 AM EDT
Zen, or the kind of 'new' player that already has an account here?

Not that they exist at all."

Correct me if I am wrong here but what I am getting is this from several of your posts.

1) You do not think NCBers should be able to strap on Uber Tats because it is an imbalance in the system. Even though NUBs get free BA & Cash? As well as punish the masses because NCBers have the opportunity to pass up the regular folk?

2) You want to punish all NUBs/New Players because they might be Multi's?

If either of these is the case then my answers are as follows:

I just cannot advocate either one bro. NCBers have it tough enough as it is please let us not add more to it. NUBs/New Players have enough of a starting stygma, there will always be a few bad apples bro. You should not bunch the good ones with the bad it is unfair and counterproductive to player retention. The best I can say is be careful with your sales most players are though hence my comment earlier.

You're wrong.

^ His logic is infallible.

I did say Correct me if I am wrong. Then Correct me GL, not just tell me I am wrong and not give a reason. Otherwise that snipit of conversation does not help you, your Thread or your Argument/Discussion at all.

On the Tattoo Bonus maybe......a real stretching it maybe. As far as I can see that would just make it easier for a Disposable Tattoo System to come about. We are already having a problem with a Disposable Char System and the way to balance it and a Disposable Tattoo System at the same time would be a precarious one at best.

1) You do not think NCBers should be able to strap on Uber Tats because it is an imbalance in the system. Even though NUBs get free BA & Cash? As well as punish the masses because NCBers have the opportunity to pass up the regular folk?

What has NUB getting free BA and Cash have anything to do with it?

No one, should be able to blaze thorugh the lower levels by stapping a penalty free massive damage dealing Tattoo on pwning everything.

Punish the masses? What now?

2) You want to punish all NUBs/New Players because they might be Multi's?

No. But I want it recognised that there exists, and will exist, New Users that will sucessfully 'game' such early doors systems through fore knowledge of the game.

You really read and impy too much into my comments, with no real basis.

Here's an example of one thing I dislike about the current system.

I've grown a base Tattoo with a base charatcer, which is no level 33,896. My MTL is just over 50K.

It would be better for me to restart this new character after my week or so current playtime, with my now larger Tattoo, as instead of fighting with a Tattoo grown with the character, I can now fight with a Tattoo 50% larger.

Which will allow me to fight higher, win more fights, and get more rewards.

Then in another couple of weeks time, it would be more advantageous for me to start over again, and fight with a max Tattoo for longer again.

And so on.

"No one, should be able to blaze through the lower levels by strapping a penalty free massive damage dealing Tattoo on pwning everything."

GL there is a penalty as has already been stated by novice it adds PR. As far as the NUBS I said that since with that particular post you related all to the NCBers rather than NUBs. So I had to ask why single them out? Because they get so much more you mean like the NUBs with their Added Cash Bonus and Free BA on Top of their EXP %? That is what I was getting at.


"No. But I want it recognized that there exists, and will exist, New Users that will successfully 'game' such early doors systems through fore knowledge of the game."

True but of course we all know about this already GL, it is not as if we were uninformed on the subject. By the way since you mentioned it in the way you did it eluded and therefore lead me to the conclusions I took on the NUB and the NCB.


"You really read and impy too much into my comments, with no real basis."

So far several people have said the same thing GL, the way you presented this argument/discussion is not as straightforward as you think it is. Hence me asking for you to correct me if I was wrong on my conclusions GL.

Penalty free as in ENC reduction.

You get an increased PR which is a trade off to higher base rewards and better challenge bonus for fighting higer.

Or even just a better win rate from losing less.

And I'm not singling out bonus types at all. Hell, restart without a bonus for all it matters.

I've really no idea why you're reading so much into my posts (or that several other people are as well...)

"By the way since you mentioned it in the way you did it eluded and therefore lead me to the conclusions"

See... I don't elude stuff. That you seem to think all my posts are laden with hidden meaning is frustrating.

That or you really just don't get them. I'm sorry if my thoughts need to be more clear and conscise, but I doubt my posting style will change much.

"That or you really just don't get them. I'm sorry if my thoughts need to be more clear and concise, but I doubt my posting style will change much."

Tis ok and why I changed the way I respond to them, forgive me for wanting clarification. I'm going to ask for it anyway and I doubt that is going to change for me either.


Now aside from this GL. as I said before on the Tattoo Bonus it is a stretch and can lead to a disposable Tattoo System that would match the Disposable Char System we are dealing with now. On the MTL being Lowered: My Opinion is straight up No. My Reason is this, it seems fair and balanced to me as it is 1/2 of our EXP divided by 12 as provided by NS. To me that means discussion over, let the masses(NCBers/and NUBs too) have their Tattoos in peace.

"My Reason is this, it seems fair and balanced to me as it is 1/2 of our EXP divided by 12 as provided by NS"

Why?

What makes that amount the right one?

GL by that kind of reasoning/questioning I easily counter with:

What makes it the wrong number in the first place?

However that would be a battle of semantics.

Look GL the system seems just fine to me it is not insanely large, it is directly proportional and dependent on char growth and finally it is open enough to give options to everyone.

In my honest opinion case dismissed.

It's not semantics, as I'm at least posting and working through my reasonings (you seem to have totally ignored my post about my current situation above).

All you have posted is "It's right becuase NS says this is the current value" with no reason or explaination behind it, then closed the case.

What's your reasoning? Why is the number correct for you?

i guess we can close the case on the exbow too then, since jon looked at it recently?

GL yes it most certainly is a Battle of Semantics and further into it Opinions as well.

My reasons were, SINCE YOU PASSED THEM UP:

Look GL the system seems just fine to me it is not insanely large, it is directly proportional and dependent on char growth and finally it is open enough to give options to everyone.

In my honest opinion case dismissed.

Now those are my reasons and my opinion if you do not like or agree with them fine. I do not agree with your reasons/opinions either. And so far so has many other people in this thread. So I will politely agree to disagree and bow out of this conversation.

dudemus: On that front the same could be said of defensive dex right?

If you potshot me I will not hesitate to fire back so please just let it drop I do not agree and I will not change my mind on it right now. Thankyou and have a nice day Gentlemen.

Zen,

"Look GL the system seems just fine to me it is not insanely large, it is directly proportional and dependent on char growth and finally it is open enough to give options to everyone."

As it would be exactly if it was half it's size. Or twice.

Or +/- some percent.

It would still be not insanely large, proportional and dependent on char growth. And open.

So why is it ok at the current value, just becuase NS posted the current value?

Why not have it at the current value but /11 or /13?

We're not trying to prove a point. You are? Tell us what's wrong with the current value. We don't have to prove its innocence, you have to prove its guilt. Get me?

zen, you seem to take everything as a potshot and that is not how it is meant, still you did see my point.

either we accept the devs authority on things and consider the game is done as that is the way they designed or we hope that they will take the best of our input and at least respond to why they choose their own way over our ideas.

reread your own comments and see if it sounds like you are trying to silence someone who is just asking for reasons why things are the way they are. it is fine if you disagree with them and i will fight for your right to do so just as i will fight for their right to state their opinions and ask questions. statements such as "case dismissed" are unnecessary to a discussion.

disagreement is fine, but state why you disagree and why you like the status quo or just ignore it entirely rather than dismissing their ideas.

"Now those are my reasons and my opinion if you do not like or agree with them fine. I do not agree with your reasons/opinions either. And so far so has many other people in this thread. So I will politely agree to disagree and bow out of this conversation."

"If you potshot me I will not hesitate to fire back so please just let it drop I do not agree and I will not change my mind on it right now. Thankyou and have a nice day Gentlemen."

What part of the above statements did either you GL or you dudemus not understand? I stated what I felt was my reasons and my opinion and that I will agree to disagree after getting clarification on a few things. I asked both of you to let it go as I was resolute in my opinion on the subject. I even tried to bow out of the conversation politely.

I asked nicely now I will say it not so nicely: I am freaking done with this dammed conversation leave me the hell out of it. I have a right to my opinion and it will not change because you argue it to be so. If my opinion is that in my mind the case is dismissed because I do not agree with it then it dammed well is! I do not have to agree with anyone on a dammed thing if I so choose. If either of you do not like it you can take a long walk off a short pier! Thankyou.

there is no call for profanity, if you are done with the conversation then simply bow out.

your agreement was never required and your opinion appreciated. the fact that you disagree though does not mean discussion over or case closed other than for you!

Here is my take on MTL. It is set up at a nice ratio right now. It allows for a home grown tattoo to be competitive being at 2/3 of the MTL and at the same time it allows for someone to forcibly increase their tattoo to improve their team. It also limits how much it is possible to do this so that a team can't just slap on a hugely oversized tattoo and beat everything down low. The other benefit of having a smaller tattoo down low is that it is growing and increasing your money.

Oh, and I think the reason why your MTL is /12 is because your levels are also /12. In other words the MTL is exactly half your total levels.

Nem well stated but it is 1/2 of your Exp divided by 12 in essence 1/24th of all your exp.

"there is no call for profanity"

I did ot use a single profane word dudemus.

"if you are done with the conversation then simply bow out."

I have tried several times already!

"your agreement was never required"

I NEVER said it was dangit!

"your opinion appreciated."

Is it? From all accounts that I have seen both of you were trying to change it even after I said I stand firm in it. In my book that is disrespectful and I treated you both as such. If you dont like the treatment then do not do it.

"the fact that you disagree though does not mean discussion over or case closed other than for you!"

I never said otherwise dudemus. I said "In *MY* Opinion case dismissed" Quit acting as if I speak for the masses or speaking for you or GL. I have never claimed any of above so backoff.

If you or GL have anything further to say to me take it to CMs. Thankyou.

"It also limits how much it is possible to do this so that a team can't just slap on a hugely oversized tattoo and beat everything down low."

But you can use a largr tattoo to fight higher than 'naturally' possible.

And isn't that what ENC is supposed to stop with items?

Why should you be able to have a new character, and instead of fighting with a tattoo the same size as those who would have had one naturally grown way back when, be able to use one in essence 50% larger?

Isn't akin to using a massive Weapon (if ENC wasn't in play) that was 50% larger than anything 'normally' sized, without penatly (apart from the increased PR, which could be offset by increased rewards/challenge bonuses or win percents).

I've always disliked the sheer amount of NW Tattoo's aquire. It seems disproportionate to the amount of CB reward that (healing and BA costs aside) you're expect to plow back into your team.

Especially when you teams with massive NWs, where the vast majority of it is purely form thir Tattoo.

And if you raise the MTL (as Nov and I were discussing), wouldn't that just exacerbate the problem of using oversized tattoo's down low?

"Is it? From all accounts that I have seen both of you were trying to change it even after I said I stand firm in it. In my book that is disrespectful and I treated you both as such. If you dont like the treatment then do not do it."

where exactly did i try to change your opinion at all in this thread?

dudemus please freaking stop! At least GL is trying to go on with the Thread which I commend by the way.

I asked you to take it to CMs if you had anything further to say to me what is so hard about that?

you made public statements, i cannot question those public statements publicly?

btw, in the space used for your last response, you could have just shown me where i tried to change your opinion. ; )

dudemus you are trolling GLs thread now with something between us. Please stop seriously dudemus enough already ok? CMs or let it drop.

i really don't get into cm conversations, except between friends as i have nothing to hide. you are the one who brought this up in this thread, that i earned your disrespect by trying to change your opinion, i don't think i am trolling when i ask for your clarification on a point you brought to the thread though.

Fine dudemus have it your way since you absolutely must:

"disagreement is fine, but state why you disagree and why you like the status quo or just ignore it entirely rather than dismissing their ideas."

Now just before this I did give my reasons and opinion on the subject and even tried to back out of the conversation. Ahhh but no you and your Torch of Freedom of Speech and Shield of Justice just had to pop in to save the freaking day and protect the innocent GL as if he could not fend for himself. In your telling me to so called "not Silence someone" you were silencing me therefore agreeing with GL by default and dismissing my reasons and opinion. Hence you were disrespectful to me dudemus. Now can we end this or have a Thread just for us, since you do not do CMs, and Leave GLs Thread alone now?