Cursing in CM and PM (in General)
November 29 2009 11:23 AM EST
What are the rules?
Can on curse at someone in PM and "get away with it"? It seems that is the new rules.
And via CM, is that the same?
I would like someone to state the rules, no theories, but someone like an admin to state what is allowed.
November 29 2009 11:25 AM EST
This issue's been brought up before: The /ignore feature was created for a reason.
November 29 2009 11:27 AM EST
I ask since I know people who have been "punished" in the past for this exact thing and others that have not.
It seems that enforcement of rules in CB is very selective. A problem I have had for years.
I would like an admin, not a common person, to post the exact rules. For consistency.
November 29 2009 11:30 AM EST
Sure, that's cool. I'll be waiting for an admin response as well, and you don't have to take what I say as a ruling or anything.
In the past, IIRC, admins have only taken action when the person continued to harass them despite being asked to stop. I know I've dealt with a number of players who were unhappy about one reason or another who cursed in my CM/PM; I usually ignore it for a bit, and then if I asked them to stop and they didn't, at that point I'd take it to an admin.
November 29 2009 11:32 AM EST
So then it is acceptable to curse and spew profanity until you are asked to stop? Or someone says your bothering them?
November 29 2009 11:41 AM EST
I expect there's a point where it's not allowable, sure. Should we set the marker at 3 profanities? That's exactly WHY there's no hard limit. It's been generally accepted that private messages and mails are up to the people sending it, and if one person is uncomfortable with the manner in which the conversation is going, then they let the other know and either they accommodate, shut up, /ignore, or they keep going and at that point then an admin could be brought into it.
For example, if I wanted to have a conversation with Lord Bob involving lots of profanity, I doubt he'd mind - I know he isn't really bothered over adult language. (sorry to bring you up LB, your opinion is just well-known. :))
November 29 2009 11:42 AM EST
From what I understand you have to define the rules when they first enter a Room, PMs, or CMs with you. After the Warnings then further actions can/should be taken.
November 29 2009 11:45 AM EST
Certainly between 2 people who know each other and have an implied consent.
However, I thought CB was a PG game with those rules applying to chat/pm/cm.
Lately, however, these rules appear to be selectively enforced.
I always thought, or assumed, that any PM or CM should be PG until the parties mutually agreed to suspend those rules.
But I could be totally incorrect and profanity, as long as it is not in the chat bar or in the forums is allowed till someone complains.
November 29 2009 11:46 AM EST
I'm not an admin but from previous experience (if it's ok to offer it), PM has the ignore feature, which solves any problem with that. From previous threads about CMs a long time ago, I believe it was felt by a good majority that it shouldn't be censored... I remember asking questions about it and how it went against the PG rule philosophy or something, but it all boiled down to anything goes pretty much in CMs.
The one thing you can do if things get out of hand with someone is CM an admin and they will ask the person to stop CMing the other and vice versa. Then if it continues, the admins will handle it.
Now enter when an admin is involved, which is the current issue,... you either have to have set rules on what is acceptable on handle such an engagement and let them deal with it OR what might be better to have the admin involved ask another admin to intervene and handle it to avoid any bias or judgement? I think having a 3rd party come in is more effective overall, because being warned by someone who the person is already mad at isn't going to matter that much.
November 29 2009 11:47 AM EST
I was under the impression it didn't apply to CM or PM; so we just both understand the rules differently. I don't think it's "selective enforcement," but rather that we don't interpret the rules the same way. Let's wait to accuse the admins until we actually know what they're so selectively enforcing, eh?
November 29 2009 11:48 AM EST
As far as I know in Chat and Forums it is strictly PG and I have always treated it as such. In Private Rooms, PMs, and CMs it is up to the involved parties the rules defined then enforced if necessary.
November 29 2009 11:48 AM EST
I had always thought that PM was the un-policed part of CB communications. Not really sure where I got the idea (really no clue) but I thought that, like user created rooms, PMs were PG-free.
not that I PM many people
November 29 2009 11:48 AM EST
"From what I understand you have to define the rules when they first enter a Room, PMs, or CMs with you. After the Warnings then further actions can/should be taken."
That makes no sense.
So if someone who you do not know start on the cursing route, you have to stop to define the rules?
There should be an implied PG rule to all CB except when it is understood not to be.
That is your own room or if it is someone you already know and have an implied non-PG.
November 29 2009 11:49 AM EST
# harass (exhaust by attacking repeatedly).
It's impossible to harass someone by the above definition on CB if /ignore is used.
If someone curses you in PM ignore it. I mean really "ignore" it, not /ignore. Sticks and stones...
If it's blatantly offensive and completely out of order then report it to me and I'll deal with it. I'll deal with it firstly by viewing both parties CM's. If there's more than a single CM winding either person up then both parties are likely to be admonished as clearly /ignore hasn't been used and petty escalation resulted as a consequence.
There ya go. No theory, no further debate needed.
While I appreciate you trying to deal with this swiftly and efficiently, I am going to reopen this thread.
There are several issues at play here, and I will be the first to admit that they have to be addressed.
The first is that historically, CB has had a situation where every admin would handle things differently. Many of you know how much I hate that, and I still do. I think it's unreasonable to expect a user base to know each set of rules an individual admin will have and enforce, and how they will enforce things. It just isn't conducive to a productive environment.
I tried initially to stop a lot of that. It's easier right now, because we have a really good set of admins currently, as the less desirable ones are no longer around. But my personal life has taken a huge toll on me, and I have not been staying on top of pretty much anything, including this. That is my fault.
Moving forward on that, the admins will make every effort to have consistency across the board, as anything else is just plain unfair to the CB community.
The second issue here is in regards to the PG rule. This has been a bad issue forever for two main reasons -- consistency of enforcement and lack of definition. Consistency I addressed, so hopefully that will no longer be an issue (or will be less of one). The definition, however, is hard. What's PG? What's acceptable? It'd be easy to just say something like whatever is on George Carlin's list, but that isn't complete enough for CB. And in turn, CB allows things that I certainly wouldn't have thought would be "PG". Further, how much does it matter? If someone says "I hate you, you're such a complete jerk," or "I hate you, you're a hjkgfhdg jerk," where "hjkgfhdg" is some banned word... is there much of a difference? Not really.
And of course, this is all outside of the original question to start the thread -- where does the PG rule apply?
Here's what we want as an end goal -- Be forgiving in what you receive and kind in what you send. That means, as G said, just ignore a lot of the nonsense that flies around, and please do not add to it. That includes forums, chat, CM, PM, etc.
One thing is certain. If you ever feel like you are being threatened or attacked or harassed or otherwise hurt by someone, please take it to an admin. This is outside of word choice or some banned word list. And please, don't respond to the originator! As G also said, we see all. We see what you do, too. Don't make fines go out both ways. It's not hard to just ignore a CM or reply back with a copy and paste of "Please don't speak with me that way." Be intelligent about these things.
Now, I'm aware that I didn't really answer anything regarding this "banned word list" that people want. Sorry. Rome wasn't built in a day. All I can say is that if someone offends you and you just can't ignore it, feel free to report it, but do yourself and all of us a favor and don't add fuel to the fire.
November 29 2009 2:32 PM EST
"For example, if I wanted to have a conversation with Lord Bob involving lots of profanity, I doubt he'd mind - I know he isn't really bothered over adult language. (sorry to bring you up LB, your opinion is just well-known.)"
Also, a conversation with profanity does not necessarily mean a flame war or an argument either. It could just be two people having a fun or passionate conversation about something, or sharing a good adult joke.
I would rather behavior be regulated rather than words.
"I would rather behavior be regulated rather than words."
That's the idea.
November 29 2009 2:51 PM EST
My understanding of the PG rule is anything that would not be in the little mermaid (pick your Disney Movie here) would not be appropriate here.
This goes for pms, cms, forums and public. This would apply to words and meaning of sentences. Should be that cut and dry. A fair warning is appropriate then action should follow.
One thing that has always bothered me was how decapitation has always been permitted.
Unless the two party's have an understanding toward each other.
Just my two cents. Sorry if it's not needed here.
i would rather pm's and cm's be handled by the parties involved due to the fact that i really dislike the idea of admins listening in on those conversations. if this requires new tools to be implemented then so be it but i think that private messages should be just that.
with that in mind, can you ignore someone without chat enabled? if so please tell me how. ; )
November 29 2009 3:21 PM EST
I have always thought that CB is a PG game. And that is how it was always presented to me and to new players.
Basically anything I would not want my 8 year old to see is off limits.
I had thought things are the same for PM and CM. PM less so since one cannot save that conversation for all to see like CMs which are on the system.
But to curse at someone in CM or PM just because you do not like it is contrary to what I thought the PG rule was.
In the past there have been admins who have done what they wanted. Most if not all are gone now. But if the rules change in the middle of the game, one has to let the common people know this.
I have never used a curse in CM (at least that I can remember), and cursed in PM 1 or 2 times. I carefully word my CMs not to include curses yet manage to get my point across. Even in the most heated of exchanges, you can express your point without cursing. However, lately I have been getting a few CMs with vile words that certainly violate the PG rule. And when I complain about it, all I get is ignore it. That is not good enough.
If I get my 13 year old cousing to play, and someone curses at him in chat, how does that look? Not to say when I tell him mother it is a PG game.
I used to be an op and kicked someone due to excessive PM cursing. Nobody saw that but me. I thought and assumed due to past incidents that PM/CM cursing was not allowed. So I did what I thought was right. But now I find out it is permissible to curse at someone until they complain about it.
That is a very bad precedent, very bad. One reason I liked CB is that one was free of the cursing one experienced in other games.
Now it seems it is allowed as long as you do not complain about it.
I know people say be forgiving, however, when one gets cursed out from the get go, what recourse does one have.
Now to one of NSs points:
'This has been a bad issue forever for two main reasons -- consistency of enforcement and lack of definition'
TV stations have a policy about verbage one allows during primetime. Perhaps CB should have a similar one. It is not too hard to find and enact. And if the admins cannot be consistent in enforcement, then new admins who will do so need to be made.
Yes, it is more consistent now, but lately there have been issues that befuddle a lot of people in this game.
November 29 2009 3:24 PM EST
Just used my first curse in CM to Beee expressing frustration at some things.
I guess I am a lair :)
November 29 2009 3:28 PM EST
If I get my 13 year old cousing to play, and someone curses at him in chat-- Meant to be CM/PM.
November 29 2009 4:55 PM EST
Well, a few things.
1) I'm going to say it, because it's annoying. Ranger, why are you pretending to be so against swearing in non-public parts of CB? I've seen how you act in non-public rooms and in PM. It is NOT PG.
2) To use something NS said about "I totally hate you. You're a jerk" or "I totally hate you. You're a "X" jerk" where X is a naughty, naughty word, well, it's really the same thing as he said. But despite what some would think, I would most definitely treat the two scenarios the same. You ask the person to calm down or take the discussion to PM. This is me speaking as an Op, but also as a person just in chat. When you're trying to have fun in chat, you don't want two people going at it personally, regardless of whether they use profanity.
3) As far as the PG in CM/PM/Private rooms goes, come on. What sense does it make to tell two grown people how they may communicate in private? It's an insult to players everywhere. It's very simple. If someone is swearing in PM and you don't like it, ask them to stop. Then just stop responding to them if they continue. Use /ignore if they won't stop and you're using your PM window for other things.
In a private room with people discussing things you don't want to hear? Leave. It's -that- simple.
CMs are the only iffy thing, because you get no choice in who can send you messages and what you have to read. But really just ignoring people works, and as G said, just report serious stuff to an admin.
On a personal note, really, don't ban UN-PG stuff in PM/CMs. That feels far too much like censorship.
November 29 2009 5:05 PM EST
Private rooms are of course different.
However, when one is in chat and your PM gets a vile statement, should there be something done. Other than ignore? Especially when it is not warranted.
CB strives to be a PG game yet I find things very hypocritical now.
But in chat, CM and PM, I really believe the PG only rule has to be enforced.
It is not censorship in any way given that the game is well known to be a PG game. At least it is what i remember it being until recently.
If you want a game you can use profanity, join WoW or some other game.
November 29 2009 5:07 PM EST
Has sworn at me in PM.
November 29 2009 5:32 PM EST
1 time and I admitted that.
You just have a habit of being so self righteous I lost control that 1 time.
I am sorry about that.
But please feel free to bring it up again in another thread. This is what, the 3rd time you stated this?
Funny, GW likes when I swear to him in pm ;)
November 29 2009 6:32 PM EST
I find it important, Ranger. That you, the pinnacle of morality when it comes to swearing, seem to lose control... A lot. I've seen you swear about others before.
You lost control with G, you've lost control with me, I've seen you basically lose control in private rooms.... I mean, what? Are we going to say that no non-PG content anywhere at any time in the CB, unless someone has "lost control"?
November 29 2009 6:34 PM EST
Great idea - since NS opened the thread back up, let's make jabs at each other in it
I totally approve
November 29 2009 6:43 PM EST
You know, at a certain point, questioning someone's actions must be done.
I find it difficult to take this thread real seriously. There ARE some things that need to be dealt with involving rules and agreement of them among admins, and a variety of other things. But at the same time, Ranger's continued attempts to get attention on him are bothersome to me. They diminish this thread, because he's just lying, honestly. Going on and on about how terrible swearing is, but he does it so often.
Sure, I could just ignore him. But I've never really thought that made sense. If everyone ignored him, sure, it'd make sense. But they don't, so it'd be silly of me to. Instead, I'm pointing out a flaw with his entire point to this thread. He -knows- what the rules are regarding un-PG language and in the variety of locations of CB. He's demonstrated that by not swearing in public to my knowledge, but doing so everywhere else.
And with -all- due respect to NS (And don't get me wrong, I'm glad he reopened the thread, I dislike threads being closed), I won't ignore the original post and predominant poster in this thread because NS said something. NS' points were valid and should be discussed. But don't expect me to ignore the OP of this thread for them
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