The Rune of Balrog Flame (in General)


Godpanda December 11 2009 2:39 PM EST

RoBF

I've decided it would be good to see some discussion based purely on the RoBF. I'm seeing it referenced in many other threads and, more and more, strong teams are using it.

But instead of posing my opinion on the RoBF, I'm going to present a few facts and numbers to the community and then let the discussion commence.

First, let me give everyone a link to the Wiki page. Making sure to give everyone a quick link to exactly what the RoBF is!

http://www.carnageblender.com/wiki/Rune+of+Balrog+Flame

The tattoo of RoBF has 10 or more tattoos over 6 million in level, only the RoS having as many. Though most other tattoos have at least 5. (The ToE, FF and IF are exceptions, sorely underrepresented in the world of large tattoos)

The 3rd largest tattoo in the game is a RoBF, with the largest being a Jiggy and the 2nd largest being an EF.

An interesting statistic is this: "Rune of Balrog Flame 236 $17,228,435 $-217,552 " 236 being the number of RoBFs in the game, $17,228,435 being the average NW and the last number is AVG price - NW.

The RoBF has the second largest average NW of ANY item in the game, only the Halidon familiar beating it (rather soundly, I may add, at Halidon Familiar 151 $29,305,692 $-1,147,685. However, keep in mind that the Halidon has not been around nearly as long. I would go so far as to put forth that there are many, many more RoBFs on lower characters, inflating the number in the game and therefore deflating the average NW of those in use.)

Now, to give a bit of... "real" numbers from the RoBF.

Against Mikel's King of Pain, holder of the game's largest RoBF, my defenseless (relatively little mitigation) minions receive between: Corpse burns from the flames surrounding Roxanne (2529743) and Corpse burns from the flames surrounding Roxanne (2237253). These numbers coiuld be found via the Wiki and simple division, but I wanted to put it in a battle situation.

The damage is relatively low, truthfully. Considering those numbers are the absolute highest an RoBF could ever hope for, and it must wait until melee and only attacks once per round, I can easily claim that every other form of direct damage would do more per round against a completely undefended target.

From the largest Jiggy in the game "Kano-san pulverized Tattoo of WoC [807402]
Kano-san crushed Tattoo of WoC [733492]
Kano-san pulverized Tattoo of WoC [725696]
Kano-san pulverized Tattoo of WoC [755598]
Kano-san crushed Tattoo of WoC [540327]"

A well known, weak hitting tattoo still outdamages it.

However, while the BASE damage is low, the RoBF's damage is totally indepedant of NW of items, or MPR distribution. That is to say, for a jiggy, or a halidon, or any damage dealer to deal damage, it needs MPR. It needs NW invested in it. The RoBF is a constant, the damage nearly predetermined by an opponent's AC level and the size of the RoBF.

Because the second big factor, is unlike most forms (if not all), the RoBF has only one way to be reduced. AC. All other sources of damage have direct counters, while the ROBF lacks that. But is that a flaw, considering how low the initial damage is?

We've addressed the damage, but let's not forget the defensive portions of the tattoo. An innate, if low, evasion. The largest not even yielding 1.2 million levels in Evasion. This would be, if the chart in the Wiki is correct, (114) 1,173,096 from the largest tattoo in the game.

This, combined with anywhere from 20-30%, the largest the tattoo the higher up in that range of magic mitigation, and you have an all around tattoo. Physical and magical defense, with a source of damage that is difficult to mitigate.

For a bit of "real world" data, at the current time of posting, there are 7 RoBF in the top 25 characters (Score based.) The second in the top 25 is RoS at 5 (I would point out that the majority of RoBF are coming in closer to the top of the list, just to save people the trouble of looking, while RoS are closer to the bottom. But that could just as easily be MPR related.)

However, there are only 9 in the top 50. That's right. Only 2 between 25-50. This lack of RoBF further down could mean a variety of things. Perhaps the RoBF needs a large MPR to work properly. Perhaps only the most competitive players use it, or perhaps it takes USD investment in the strategy. Or maybe it just doesn't level well. Regardless, those are the numbers.

So those are the facts I've garnered for this discussion. I hope the community makes use of them to hold the discussion, and I definitely hope more facts are found by others.

May the debate on the Rune of Balrog Flame commence!

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 11 2009 2:47 PM EST

i think there are quite a few robfs on ncb teams coming up as well.

QBRanger December 11 2009 2:50 PM EST

GW,

Well done and stated.

You hit on the RBF and all its points very eloquently.

I would like to add something to the JKF example you gave.

While it hits for about 2.2M vs you, vs tanks and DB/evasion users, it will hit for less. LR's tattoo hits me for 2.5 times a round for about 600k damage.

But you hit on a number of issue about the RBF.

Quickly to summarize:

1) Unique damage that is, well unique, in that GA, AMF, EC all fail to lower it.
2) It is one of the lowest damage forms but hits every round once melee starts.
3) Gives evasion. And at the top ranks now, that evasion is enough to lower hits by at least 1 per round. Which is equivalent to 25-33% damage reduction vs almost all tanks. 20% vs those that hit 5x a round which are perhaps 3 in the game right now.
4) Gives 20-30% magic resistance and can be used with a MgS for additional MR.

For those too lazy to look in the wiki here is an example of the AC reductions:
# Superman burns from the flames surrounding Roxanne (850452) 335 AC
# Superman burns from the flames surrounding Roxanne (1288650) 221 AC
# Superman burns from the flames surrounding Roxanne (1747918) 99 AC
# Superman burns from the flames surrounding Roxanne (1931105) 0 AC

I think it is too good a tattoo. The reason it is used so effectively and often is that it has damage ability independent on your other minions.

Basically it does too much too well.

I personally would like to see either its evasion or MR be gone. Then perhaps it may be better balanced.

My opinion only.


Mikel December 11 2009 2:53 PM EST

I think is not a fact :)

But I'm sure there a some coming, the question is are they proportionate to the other tatoos?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 11 2009 2:56 PM EST

However, while the BASE damage is low, the RoBF's damage is totally indepedant of NW of items, or MPR distribution. That is to say, for a jiggy, or a halidon, or any damage dealer to deal damage, it needs MPR. It needs NW invested in it. The RoBF is a constant, the damage nearly predetermined by an opponent's AC level and the size of the RoBF.


That's not true.

A Hal, Jig, or D familiar can put out more damage at an equal tattoo level than a RoBF, and requires exactly the same NW as the RoBF.

What the other Tattoos have, is the ability *to* boost them with NW. Something the RoBF lacks.

QBRanger December 11 2009 2:56 PM EST

Right now Nem has hit on an incredible strategy.

Using the exbow to nerf tanks, the RBF to nerf magic damage and tank damage and a large PL battery to absorb damage/lower damage.

Basically using 2 of the more unbalanced items in CB together to make a super character.

Once the RBF vs SG/EF is fixed, which is a well known BUG (not working as intended), the RBF/exbow combo may not be crackable.

Except perhaps with another RBF and exbow.

I would like to see someone try this strategy with 2 minions from the start unlike Nem buying 1 at 4.5M MPR.

That character would look similar to LR with xp distribution.

Lord Bob December 11 2009 2:56 PM EST

I would like to see it go back to reactionary damage with the damage lowered, and the Evasion removed.

QBJohnnywas December 11 2009 2:59 PM EST

Only 9 in the top 50 of the things, and most of those are the teams I simply cannot beat. Be they tank, mage or RBF build, that tattoo is the one thing I cannot even work out how best to beat with my team.

I've lots of HP, I've tried lots of AC. It's that constant bang bang bang across the rounds that simply wears me away.

I'm not sure I like it very much for that.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 11 2009 3:00 PM EST

Ranger, if the RoBF is unbeatably good versus DD, at it's what 30% maximum reduction, then all the MGS that offer larger reducitons must be so much better...

Nem doesn't use a MGS on his RoBF minion, so I suppose his Strat get's *better* and more uber if he drops the RoBF and uses a MGS instead.

QBRanger December 11 2009 3:01 PM EST

A Hal, Jig, or D familiar can put out more damage at an equal tattoo level than a RoBF, and requires exactly the same NW as the RoBF. What the other Tattoos have, is the ability *to* boost them with NW. Something the RoBF lacks.

That is very true.

But the downside of the HF, Jig or D familiar is their vulnerability to GA which is very common in the game. And the D familiar to AMF. And the HF/JKF to the exbow.

And using DM to get rid of GA lends one very vulnerable to decay.

With the RBF one does not have to worry about GA, or AMF, or the exbow.

Godpanda December 11 2009 3:01 PM EST

Well, Mikel, is that not what makes this tattoo so different? How does one compare this tattoo to all the others?

I mean, outside of them all being tattoos, the RoBF is a totally different kind of tattoo than the rest. The rest all serve and do -one- thing. The mage familiars cast DD, the Halidon and jiggy attack using physical properties and using an approriate skill, the RoS boosts ED, the ToE reduces damage.

But the RoBF is totally different. It provides a unique form of attack, and two forms of differing types of reduction (Physical in the term of evasion, so protection through avoidance, while it protects from magical attacks in a straight percent reduction)

The problem becomes of assigning worth to all these various aspects, and then comparing them to the ONE aspect of the other tattoos.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 11 2009 3:02 PM EST

Johnny, the counter is simple.

AC Wall. ;)

To finish it off, add in the unbeatable PL/TSA minion to back it up, and you can out regen the damage the RoBF inflicts.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 11 2009 3:02 PM EST

That is very true.

But the downside of the HF, Jig or D familiar is their vulnerability to GA which is very common in the game. And the D familiar to AMF. And the HF/JKF to the exbow.
And using DM to get rid of GA lends one very vulnerable to decay.
With the RBF one does not have to worry about GA, or AMF, or the exbow.

Trade off for not being able to use NW to boost it.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 11 2009 3:04 PM EST

A well known, weak hitting tattoo still outdamages it.


gw, did you have lr remove his amulet of junction for the test above or is the damage figures actually the largest jkf along with the largest unarmed combat in the game junctioned along with items boosting things?

QBRanger December 11 2009 3:05 PM EST

Ranger, if the RoBF is unbeatably good versus DD, at it's what 30% maximum reduction, then all the MGS that offer larger reducitons must be so much better...

One cannot equip a MgS on any minion like one can with a RBF. Remember the MgS nerfs all spells.

Nem doesn't use a MGS on his RoBF minion, so I suppose his Strat get's *better* and more uber if he drops the RoBF and uses a MGS instead.

No, but he can use them both at the same time. However, he does have a smallish AMF and SS on his RBF minion.

The RBF does damage/magic resistance/evasion while the MgS does only MR.

So how did you get from changing the RBF to the MgS would be better?

Godpanda December 11 2009 3:07 PM EST

I just linked the damage, Dudemus. As GL said, the strength of other tattoos is their ability to boost the damage. I wouldn't ask someone to remove that advantage =)

I showed both tattoos at their strongest. I mean, comparing a mage and a tank is hardly fair if you deny the tank it's weapon on grounds of equality, seeing that the mage doesn't have one :P

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 11 2009 3:09 PM EST

One cannot equip a MgS on any minion like one can with a RBF. Remember the MgS nerfs all spells.


One can't equip a RoBF on any minon. Remember you can't use a TSA or Cloak with a Tattoo...
So how did you get from changing the RBF to the MgS would be better?


Your entire post was about the defnesive nature of his set up.

It's no where near maximised versus Magic Mitigation, and would be even *more* uber using a MGS instead of a RoBF.

A team using an EXBow and a MGS would be a better defensive team then Team Rocket...

QBRanger December 11 2009 3:10 PM EST

Only 9 in the top 50 of the things, and most of those are the teams I simply cannot beat. Be they tank, mage or RBF build, that tattoo is the one thing I cannot even work out how best to beat with my team.

The biggest problem I see is your tattoo.

It is a bit low for where you fight and it is a ToE which does nothing vs the RBF. And it does nothing offensively to help you defeat the RBF.
I would think either the ToA or the ToE would be best for you at the level tattoo you have.

DD tattoos will get eaten alive without a huge AS even with the NSC at your tats level. The HF with its recent nerf will be laughable at this level of fighting.

Godpanda December 11 2009 3:11 PM EST

@ GL

What I had meant to say was that other tattoos need MPR and NW to play to their full strength, while an RoBF is in a constant state power, regardless of other factors. I'm looking for an admin who is willing to clarify that line =)

Thanks for pointing it out. The post was rather long, I figured I'd miss some things.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 11 2009 3:13 PM EST

that is fine and i wasn't arguing with that, however the statement that "a well known weak hitting tattoo still outdamages it" likely needs some clarification.

i would go further to state that the jkf is probably closer to the robf than any other tat in abilities. you get the weapon built into the jiggy with auto upgrades in x & +, you get the uc skill along with the inherent stats to use it and you get evasion inherent in the uc.

i would like to see what the two tats do as a damage comparison straight up but that is more for my own curiosity regarding uc damage not scaling well due to its non-linear nature though.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 11 2009 3:25 PM EST

Going out for a Ruby with my skin in a minute, so I'll leave you all to digest this;

Taking a 12M Tattoo as the size, in Melee;

An Ice Familiar would do 13,200,000 Damage per round

A RoBF would do 2,400,000 damage per round

But the RoBF damage can't be reduced.

You would need to cobble together an 82% reduction to Magic damage in order to reduce the Ice Familiar to the same damage the RoBF deals.

But the RoBF offers defensive portection as well.

The Ice Familiar offers another kill slot with 3,000,000 HP to burn through.

But the Ice Familiar is vulnerable to AMF!

You get the opportunity to utilise your NW, and Junction items to it, if you wish. If you won't want to Junction AG to improve your Spell Level, you can use NSC to reduce it's vulnerability to AMF.

You can also Junction DB or other items to increase the defensive properties it can provide your team, if you so wish.

But the RoBF is OP!

Clearly...

GA is still too powerful, especially when combined with the RoS (any guesses as to why the RoS is also one of th emost used Tattoos?), and DMs 'specialised' ability to negate it (and AS).

AdminNightStrike December 11 2009 3:34 PM EST

Going out for a Ruby with my skin in a minute


...?

Pwned December 11 2009 3:38 PM EST

Vouch for GL

QBJohnnywas December 11 2009 3:45 PM EST

NS, he's going for a curry with his sister.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 11 2009 4:20 PM EST

;)

She's running late, had an extra pigs in the battle. ;)

Not sure if we're gonna use the dog to order a delivery, or take my jam down the frog to eat there.

:P

Pwned December 11 2009 4:56 PM EST


Something about a cop and sending a minority to do some task and something about your crew and a frog?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 11 2009 6:45 PM EST

Freya stayed for an extra beer in the pub, so wasn't sure if we were going to phone for a delivery, or take my car down the road to a restuarant. ;)

We got a delivery, it was lovely. ;)

Shark December 12 2009 1:48 AM EST

I just got to say I'm not overly impressed with the RoBF...but thats me

I don't see it as anything more special or less special or even special at all...

I got lost after the Ruby with some skin...I'm still pondering that

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 12 2009 7:20 AM EST

JW had it spot on. ;)

Ruby Murray (Curry) and Skin and Blister (Sister). You don't use the second, rhyming part in slang (in most cases), so a Ruby is a Curry and your Skin is your Sister. ;)

LoL Rhyming slang derailed the thread!

QBRanger December 12 2009 9:18 AM EST

I just got to say I'm not overly impressed with the RoBF...but thats me


And yet you are using it on your NCB.

LOL.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 12 2009 10:11 AM EST

i fondly remember when the English spoke English! ; )

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 12 2009 10:15 AM EST

i wish there was a way to pull stats for the 100 most active players. that could tell us so much about items that we just cannot see now!

AdminNightStrike December 12 2009 12:12 PM EST

You can pull the active players, and then just look at what they do.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 12 2009 12:13 PM EST

active players shows those that fight the most or just logged in?

AdminNightStrike December 12 2009 12:49 PM EST

No idea. I could check, though :)

AdminNightStrike December 12 2009 12:56 PM EST

Looks like it's based on last web activity.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 12 2009 1:02 PM EST

thought so, by most active above i meant the active fighters.

AdminNightStrike December 12 2009 1:07 PM EST

1-week clan mvp's wouldn't be a bad start.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 12 2009 2:18 PM EST

ok, so i would love to see the tat distribution in the top 70 (first page) of the 1 week clan mvp's. i think that would be an interesting look at popularity of the various tats.

i may do this later if no one else takes it on, heading out now though.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] December 12 2009 2:18 PM EST

Woohoo for slang lessons!

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 12 2009 2:20 PM EST

there are some active fighters not in clans, but i do think that is the best group that we have a list for.

Shark December 13 2009 4:22 AM EST

And yet you are using it on your NCB.

LOL.


and that should prove in itself alone thats its pretty worthless :)
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